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gutsmaka
30-11-2011, 18:40
I played in an apoc in my games workshop the other day, and it was necrons (and one BA player) against orks and one tyranid and one daemon player) (necrons and BA vs tyranids, where have I seen this before:shifty:) and I hink thatnecrons are incredibly OP in apoc.
orks had all the advantages, they had 2 stompas (one goff rolla, one big mek), a squiggoth, a sythed hirodule, a fighter bomber along with the rest of the army and first turn.
the necron army was 20 scarabs, 1-2 monoliths, 20-40 warriors, 15 lychguard, orikan+2 c'tan, one with WW and a collection of lords and crypteks the necrons also had somthing called a resurection warcell but I'll get to that later

the first turn had orks bomard necrons with stompa 7" templates and giga shootas.
they kill some lords, 10 scarabs and mostof the warcell. then the warcell shows it's first power, a 2+WBB:eek:. then on the necron turn the scarabs eat one stompa and the warcell summons more scarabs:eek: ankyr gets the mek stompa to fire into boyz, destroying a large chunk of them:eek:

ork tun, tyranids and fighta bomba strafe and deepstrike into the necron lines and army generally shoots, moves and some minor assaults necron turn uneventful exept a monolith deepstrikingand bringing 10 lychguard bhind the orks

ork turn ghazkull attacks lychguard. by he end of hegame, him and his nodz will actually lose this combat! tyranids assault warcell with genestealers necron turn, warcell summons monolith:eek: which portals a trygon!!!:eek: ankyrstill using stompa to destroy its own army

ork turn, genestealers LOSE to 30 warriors part of warcell) and ork assault is starting to get a few holes. necron turn. 3 scarabs assault the 1000p mek stompa and kill it!:eek:, destroyers kill fighter bomba and monolith portals DoM when its at S 10!:eek: orks call it as they have almost nothing left (I cant remember what killed the squiggoth/hirodule, but they did die!)

(:eek:=I think this is OP)

from this I found that scarabs are monsters in apoc and that warcell is extremley OP

was this a one off or have you had other experiences with necrons being this OP in apoc?

Lord Damocles
30-11-2011, 19:04
then the warcell shows it's first power, a 2+WBB:eek:.
It's not an ability of the warcell. It's the Reconstruction Scarabs Strategic Asset. It only works* on a single unit a turn, and is tame compared to many other Assets.



then on the necron turn the scarabs eat one stompa and the warcell summons more scarabs:eek:
Stuff got killed. Overpowered!

What the Resurrection Warcell summons - and the number summoned - is randomly rolled. The warcell is also very expensive, and summoning requires the Lord to still be alive.



ankyr gets the mek stompa to fire into boyz, destroying a large chunk of them:eek:
If the Ork player didn't want to risk that happening, they shouldn't have left a Stompa within range of Anrakyr's Mind in the Machine ability (which doesn't always go off).



necron turn, warcell summons monolith:eek:
The Resurrection warcell can only summon Scarabs and Tomb Spyders**.



which portals a trygon!!!
The portal of Exile is hardly that great. (D6". Really?)



3 scarabs assault the 1000p mek stompa and kill it!:eek:
Technically possible, but somewhat unlikely. Like a lot of things that can happen in the game.



monolith portals DoM when its at S 10!:eek:

So? Are you suggesting that it should have been Immune to the Portal of Exile? If so, why should the Doom get to ignore core rules?



*Well, actually, since the rules refer to WBB, it doesn't...
**Well, technicly neither of these actually exist anymore...

paultwilson
30-11-2011, 19:08
Apocalypse is not meant to be balanced, saying one army is OP is Irrelevant.

Askari
30-11-2011, 19:13
You know what really makes Necrons broken in Apoc?

Imotekh the Stormlord.

Read his ability. Count how many units, on average, the opponent has in an Apoc game. Read his ability again. Laugh.

IcedCrow
30-11-2011, 19:14
Apoc games are not meant to be balanced. That by itself should be a good starting point.

Necron Lord Omega
30-11-2011, 19:15
Well this gave me a laugh.

gutsmaka
30-11-2011, 19:15
warcell cant summon monoliths? then maby they were just in reserve... for the 2plus he rolled at the time tat the old WBB did, ankayr was in a CCB and turbo boosted.
I dont want to complain, I was on the necron side and I brought the orikan,c'tan comboI just never thought that they would be so effective that they would be OP (in my opinion)

bocaj
30-11-2011, 20:07
Well tbh I think the stormlord could ruin games in apoc. All enemies take d6 S8 hits on a 6 that can effect whole games by dozens of units taking hits turn 1.

Bonzai
30-11-2011, 20:35
I think that necrons were always fairly strong in Apoc. I think they got a little stronger with the new codex. However, there really needs to be an Apoc FAQ since WBB is gone, and it invalidates a lot of the old formations.

Are they over powered? Nope, especially in Apoc. I've seen the devestation that Titans can wreck. I've seen Eldrad shut down armies by himself. Necrons fit in just fine.

Gunless Ganger
30-11-2011, 21:19
However, there really needs to be an Apoc FAQ since WBB is gone, and it invalidates a lot of the old formations.


I haven't read the Apoc books in great detail. Is there anything that seriously doesn't work just by substituting Reanimation Protocol for WBB?

madden
30-11-2011, 21:32
Where's the rules for the warcell? Not seen them(only got tge first book).

Drakcore Bloodtear
30-11-2011, 21:43
Well tbh I think the stormlord could ruin games in apoc. All enemies take d6 S8 hits on a 6 that can effect whole games by dozens of units taking hits turn 1.

I've always played that if a rule states 'the whole board is effected' then limit it to 48" or 72" (depending on the size of the table) still powerful but not game breaking.

Theocracity
30-11-2011, 21:58
I haven't read the Apoc books in great detail. Is there anything that seriously doesn't work just by substituting Reanimation Protocol for WBB?

WBB happens per turn. RA happens per phase. 2+ to get a model back each phase sounds a bit much.

Grimtuff
30-11-2011, 22:03
I think that necrons were always fairly strong in Apoc. I think they got a little stronger with the new codex. However, there really needs to be an Apoc FAQ since WBB is gone, and it invalidates a lot of the old formations.

Are they over powered? Nope, especially in Apoc. I've seen the devestation that Titans can wreck. I've seen Eldrad shut down armies by himself. Necrons fit in just fine.

What they really need an FAQ for is how Scarabs work vs. Superheavies esp. WRT how Entropic Strike works in conjunction with structure points...

Alkemy
30-11-2011, 22:56
I've always played that if a rule states 'the whole board is effected' then limit it to 48" or 72" (depending on the size of the table) still powerful but not game breaking.

Why would you play it like that if the rules clearly state the
"whole board" ?? What would a tournament's policy be??

bocaj
30-11-2011, 23:08
Why would you play it like that if the rules clearly state the "whole board" ?? What would a tournament's policy be??

This is because a 200 and something point model getting a 1/6 chance of hitting all enemy units with D6 s8 hits will easily get its point back in apoc games of 10,000+ points. So Drakcore's ruling makes lots of sense making it that the huge boards don't get ravaged by one model. Also his storm would only be focused around him so only the centre of it would be bad (hence the closeness of the lightning range).

itcamefromthedeep
30-11-2011, 23:47
The core game isn't fair. There's no reason to think that Apocalypse would be any better.


I played in an apoc in my games workshop the other day, and it was necrons (and one BA player) against orks and one tyranid and one daemon player) (necrons and BA vs tyranids, where have I seen this before:shifty:) and I hink thatnecrons are incredibly OP in apoc.
If you really think it's bad, have the Tyranid player bring a Hierophant or two, and use the rules for warp field. A Gargantuan Creature with ten wounds and a 2+ 3++ should go a long way to evening the odds.


then the warcell shows it's first power, a 2+WBBIf you finish off units they don't get that roll, including beating them in close combat. That should help solve your problem with the Resurrection Cell. If anyone complains about warp field no longer technically being a psychic power, remind them that WBB was renamed.

Geep
30-11-2011, 23:58
A lot of the stuff you state is OP seems to come from incredible luck. Trygon and Doom dying to a portal of exile? 1/6 chance each. If either survived the monolith was doomed. Genestealers failing in combat vs Necron warriors? Also very unlucky.

I think Necrons are pretty fine for Apocalypse. Definitely nowhere near as nasty as some armies can be in that unbalanced rule set (Apoc is not meant for balance).

Swapping WBB for RP seems fine to me for most Apoc things. Sure you can get a 2+ RP every phase, but that's on a single unit, takes a strategic asset, and the 'per phase' helps counter the fact that a completely wiped out unit now has no chance at all of coming back (and in Apoc you can expect entire units to vanish easily).

Chem-Dog
01-12-2011, 03:46
However, there really needs to be an Apoc FAQ since WBB is gone, and it

You think this just applies to the Necrons? Every time a Codex gets a gloss-over the Apoc formations with said army start to creak with rules that don't really do anything any more or references to models/units that don't exist any more. Most can be solved by a little common sense or ignored.

Doesn't mean I wouldn't like Apoc to be tightened up a bit in that department though.


Why would you play it like that if the rules clearly state the
"whole board" ?? What would a tournament's policy be??

Actually, it was either discussed around the time of the original release of Apocalypse or is suggested in the book that powers and abilities that expand to "The entire board" might need to be reigned in a bit. One of the options that was suggested was giving them an area of effect equivalent to roughly the same size as a normal battleground.

As for the concept of an Apocalypse Tournament....I shudder at the thought.

self biased
01-12-2011, 03:58
Apocalypse Tournament.

whomever uttered those words should be taken out back behind the shed and put out of their misery.

Lord Damocles
02-12-2011, 17:06
Where's the rules for the warcell? Not seen them(only got tge first book).
Apocalypse Reloaded, pg.50.



Why would you play it like that if the rules clearly state the "whole board" ??
'For example, we found that things that affected every model 'on the table', or which had an 'unlimited range', bacame very powerful in large Apocalypse games, so we instituted a house rule that such things are limited in range to 72".'
Apocalypse, pg.37

GodlessM
02-12-2011, 17:11
Didn't help that the guy cheated, but even then, you are overreacting drastically OP.

gutsmaka
03-12-2011, 02:58
I'mnot complaining, I was on the necron team. I'm just surprised that they were so good.

avatarofportent
03-12-2011, 21:51
you want to see over powered. Try going up against 2 Necron Pylons and 4 DoomsDay Monoliths.

Minsc
04-12-2011, 00:31
This gotta be the most overpowe...I mean pointless thread in the history of Warseer.

Army X is OP in a 2v3 apocalypse game, really?
Carebears are that way --->

With that said however, yes, Necrons are very very good in apocalypse, but as others have said; Apocalypse isn't meant to be balanced, it's meant to be...basically over the top.

Drakcore Bloodtear
04-12-2011, 11:59
Has anyone tried the online Datasheets for things like the Aeonic Orb or Abattoir?

So far I've seen a few and they look worth it

Lord Damocles
04-12-2011, 12:44
you want to see over powered. Try going up against 2 Necron Pylons and 4 DoomsDay Monoliths.
For a minimum of 3840 points (new Monolith pricing), that can be taken apart pretty easily.

orkmiester
05-12-2011, 10:30
As for the concept of an Apocalypse Tournament....I shudder at the thought.
30-11-2011 23:58



whomever uttered those words should be taken out back behind the shed and put out of their misery.
01-12-2011 03:46


:eyebrows::wtf::evilgrin::shifty:

*falls off chair*

in theory a good idea providing the organisers used their nerf gun ability- not that anyone would bother:rolleyes:

it was never intended to be balanced however its effects have got into the 'standard' game so necrons could have the adavntage in one sense. but having an entire nob biker army suddenly outflank you is not pleasant to fight against but fun to watch while supporting them:D

BigBarryJazz
05-12-2011, 11:11
Why would you play it like that if the rules clearly state the
"whole board" ?? What would a tournament's policy be??

It is in all the Apocalypse books as a suggestion and I would recommend it. Things can get a bit more tactical as you or your opponent has to worry about staying out of range. Also, seeing a librarian getting ganked by a deamon whilst trying to pull some psychic shenanigans because he forgot about some trinket being carried by a farseer is very satisfying.

musical
05-12-2011, 11:59
To the OP

I don't know why no one commented on this, maybe because it is too obvious: the rules you were using are outdated!!! Apocalypse reload was published in 2008 and written with the previous Necron Codex in mind.

WWB used to be on 4+, so Reconstruction Scarabs Strategic Asset improve that to 2+ for 1 unit no big deal. Warriors used to cost 18pts each and immortal even more, also there were no such thing as a Royal court.

Cheeslord
05-12-2011, 12:16
As mentioned, please bear in mind that as written, there is no longer a we'll be back roll, so apocalypse powers that work on it (Reconstruction Scarabs definitely - I don't know if the 3 monolith formation used to affect WBB) simply have no game effect.

Plus, living metal rewrite has massively dropped the power of the Gauss Pylon (I think it refers you to the necron codex rather than re-stating the living metal rule in its own entry).

Regardling Imhotekh, if we put him in apocalypse I (as the Necron player in our group) propose to limit him to effecting only 12 units max, of his choice, with lightening. A range limit is another option (one that we would apply to Epdemius, should ever a mainly nurgle apocalypse army make an appearance). And it would be less than 72", since that is practically the whole of any reasonable table even if the model in question is hiding in a corner.

Apocalypse is hugely imbalanced even when compared to regular 40k which has substantial issues. The worst example I can think of is the rule that imperial guard vendettas/valkyries become flyers (immune to assault, massively resistant to shooting)for free...

Mark.

KarlPedder
05-12-2011, 12:52
Lol the 1st clue that Apoc is unbalanced....GW, fun aside when Apoc 1st came out my interest dropped considerably once I realized that instead of a serious attempt to addresss high pts value games I read things like No FOC, bring whatever models you have etc....

Give me a high pts value game with multiple FOCs over Apoc any day.

KingNova3000
05-12-2011, 12:59
The OP made me laugh so much. Having a cry about OP in apoc is just silly. If you're getting stomped by the enemy I have the answer, sssshhhh its a secret, don't tell anyone...BIGGER GUNS! Titans, baneblades, scores of Leman Russes and Land Raider, Thunderhawks with Storm Raven escorts, more titans and bane blades or just one unit of Grey Knights.

Chem-Dog
05-12-2011, 19:15
:eyebrows::wtf::evilgrin::shifty:

*falls off chair*

in theory a good idea providing the organisers used their nerf gun ability- not that anyone would bother:rolleyes:

My club have and do utilise a twin-linked gattling heavy nerf-gun. The last un-limited Apoc we had was Chaos Vs Imperium and saw 5 Baneblades, a Hellhammer and a Plague Tower on the Chaos side Vs no end of piecemeal Space Marine forces that had no chance even though they had so many points on their side we were technically able to have EVERY Stratagem in the Apoc book and those available to Daemons, CSM's and IG in the Reload book (and the universal ones). So we tend to apply strict limits.