PDA

View Full Version : Beastmen Herdstone List



Latro_
02-12-2011, 16:02
Thinking of reprising my BM army. Heard a lot about this being 'the way to go'. As i understand it you have 2-3 lvl one shamens with shadow/beasts near it in a unit of ungors or somthing and use the sig shadow magic spell to nuke their WS or I.

With a big unit of gors/bestigors up front to hit people first and easier due to the lowered WS/I and a lvl 4 shamen to use the rest of the extra dice.

On paper it seems pretty cool but surely this means your army has to stand there and wait for the enemy should you wanna buff your own units?

And Ws and I dont seem that much of a great thing to debuff? or is my head far too much in 40k to realise the effect it can have.

popisdead
02-12-2011, 21:26
Shard of the Herdstone is based off at least 2 low level Bray-Shaman generating extra power dice and tossing 3 dice at the boosted Miasma. You drop M, WS, Init and BS. This is very versatile too.

Dropping an M4 unit to M1 means they cannot declare a charge unless they are within 13"s to you.

Also the range on Miasma is 48"s, there is no "stand and wait for them." You get to dictate the flow of movement.

WS is the greatest thing to debuff. It's the first line of defense.

Savage Orcs in Horde have 50 attacks, I'd like to reduce the number of hits that get through as possible.

Plus think about dropping WS and Init of High Elves. Suddenly they are hitting you on 5s with no re-roll? I'll take that.

I use three lvl 1 Shadow Bray-shaman and toss them in either my Raiders (for mobility) or a large unit of Ungors if facing lots of pie plates.

I recommend you check out The Herdstone (http://z2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?act=idx) which has a wealth of information for Beastmen.

There is another variant I am tempted to try (all props to Memnos for this), which is two lvl 2s and a lvl 4 all on shadow. The lvl 4 has the Skull of Rarkos. Your level 4 casts at +5 and your two lvl 2s cast at +3 and every turn you have +3 power dice. That is a pretty effective magic phase as on average you will have 10 power dice to your opponents average of 4 dispel dice.

Memnos
05-12-2011, 09:00
On paper it seems pretty cool but surely this means your army has to stand there and wait for the enemy should you wanna buff your own units?

And Ws and I dont seem that much of a great thing to debuff? or is my head far too much in 40k to realise the effect it can have.

WS debuffs and M debuffs are fantastic.

If you're facing a deathstar unit with M 1, I will be amazed if they ever see combat against a competent player.

If you debuff I/WS to 1, you go first and they hit you on 5s and you hit them on 3s. With the sheer number of dice being tossed around, here's the difference:

Against a unit of 10*3 Khorne Chaos Warriors with Halberds:

They get 50 attacks, hitting on 5s instead of 3s against your Bestigor. Instead of 33.33 hits, they get 16.66 hits. Wounding on 3s means about 11 wounds instead of 22.

You're hitting on 3s, rerolling. If you have 30 attacks back, you hit him 27 times and wound him on 2s, or about 22-23 wounds.

If you were hitting him on 4s, you'd have 22.5 hits and 18-19 wounds. Not only did you reduce his killing power by fifty percent, but you've also increased your own damage output by over twenty percent. It's the difference between losing combat by 4 and winning combat by 11. That's pretty significant.

Latro_
05-12-2011, 10:02
Yea it seems good but you have invest what at least 350pts into it? 3 shamens, the stone and a small unit of ungors to bunker them in.

Seems like a big investment? Thats another unit of gors or minos or something...

Also with all those pts invested in shamens does that not screw you over for a bsb hero and then you still need a lord at say 2k-3k pts you already have 700-800pts in chars

Shadowmancer
05-12-2011, 10:27
106 points for a unit of Ungor. 20 with Standard and Muso. If you go Herdstone list I would avoid Minos. I have been running a variation on the Herdstone list myself. But I have been going level 4 with shadow and 2 level 1s with Beast, which works quite well within the confines of a +2 pd excluding channelling environment. But saying that I am spending near 1000 points on Characters including Beastlord and BSB.

Poisoned Edge
05-12-2011, 14:09
Whilst expensive when combined with a lvl 4 using the Jagged Dagger it allows you to force your magic phase into overdrive. Being able to use often well over 12 dice per turn means that even anti-magic lists run into difficulties stopping all your spells.

Makaber
05-12-2011, 14:37
When I've tried the Herdstone schtick, I didn't even bother with a unit to hide them in, I just felt that made them all a single big target and more prone to Panic. You can usually place the Herdstone behind some kind of forest or hill to block line of sight or at least give you some cover, and remember that the stone itself is a terrain feature too. A single Shaman way back at the board is a pretty difficult target to hit with shooting, and if you run them individually he will also struggle getting into melee with more than one at a time should he reach them. Finally, remember that losing a single Shaman isn't a huge deal, so it's often better than having your opponent shoot at other units, and if you have a Breat Bray along with the Herdstone "crew", the Shadowhide is only 5 points and makes him extremely hard to hit with normal shooting.

As to what the Herdstone brings to the table, it's very efficient. Initially I felt a bit dirty investing that much in characters, but it helps both your concience and your understanding of how it works to think of it less like a bunch of characters, and more like a weird war machine, sort of like the Casket of Souls or Anvil. When I used it, I normally just threw one or two dice at a regular Miasma. Even with a Level 1 using a single dice you have a 50% chance of getting it through. I also found it almost most efficient at forcing your opponent to use Dispel Dice at stopping it, leeching them away and opening up for the game winner spells of your Great Bray.

I've stopped using it now, though. It got a bit samey, and my friends though it was so fustrating to play against, they asked me to stop doing it. I obliged, because I felt it was something of a crutch anyway, but I wouldn't hesitate bringing it out for a tournament or something.

Ed.: Oh, and I'm not a fan of combining it with a Jagged Dagger setup. I think it's a bit overkill, and I don't feel the two concepts mesh very well. The Jagged Dagger is awesome (it's what I'm using now), but as soon as you generate, say, 3 dice from the Herdstone alone and add your channeling, you'll cap out at 12 dice a lot of the time anyway and the Dagger turns a bit moot.

Poisoned Edge
05-12-2011, 16:01
I can see your point Makaber and I prefer the dagger over the herdstone in most games however in a list that can utilise a large number of magic dice the effects can be quite dramatic.

Latro_
07-12-2011, 10:32
Sweet, thanks for the headsup guys i'll give it a go.

I guess the standard stuff to use with this style of army are big (30-40) blocks of gors/bestigors?

popisdead
07-12-2011, 17:29
Yea it seems good but you have invest what at least 350pts into it? 3 shamens, the stone and a small unit of ungors to bunker them in.

Seems like a big investment? Thats another unit of gors or minos or something...

Also with all those pts invested in shamens does that not screw you over for a bsb hero and then you still need a lord at say 2k-3k pts you already have 700-800pts in chars

It's a high rate of return and a unit that isn't bearing down on your enemies line which is scary.

You can do it with just 10 Raiders too.

You don't screw over your BSB. the 206 point Beasts Banner Wargor is a top priority for the army.

Yes Beastmen tend to run 1000-1200 points in characters in the army (at about 2500 points). It's a drawback to making them viable.