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Kaleithel
02-12-2011, 22:21
Hello guys!
Following the advices of some of you, I have decided to gather a Skaven army. I really need two more suggestions to finish it properly.:chrome:
Here are the models I am about to receive (just ordered them from the net):

2 Warlords
2 Warlock Engineers
1 Master Moulder
40 Stormvermins
160 Clanrats/Skavenslaves
20 Plague Monks
4 Rat Ogres with Packmaster
6 Giant rats with Packmaster
1 Warp Lightning Cannon
1 Screaming Bell
2 Poisoned Wind Mortars
2 Warpfire Throwers

Now, the two questions:
1) How many Clanrats and Skavenslaves should I build from the 160-mixed pool I have got?
2) What else should I buy to give to my army competitiveness, variety and fun?

Thank you in advance for any suggestion.

Dreadlordpaul
02-12-2011, 23:20
Build them all as slaves :p

34thGingerbread
03-12-2011, 01:20
You may need a grey seer if you plan on playing the Bell. If it gets blown up during combat I do believe a grey seer must still take the field with the model simply removed from the ranks.

Otherwise I think the slave vs clanrat argument is something best answered after you play a game or two and discover exactly what kind of list you would like to build. I find that I prefer a few small blocks of clanrats (25 or so) working around one large block of slaves. It buys my the time I need to move my units around, or keep more deadly units away from my ranged attacks. Plus more clanrats means more weapons teams imo.

russellmoo
03-12-2011, 05:01
You'll need some clanrats to push that bell- the rest should be slaves- so at least 40-60 clanrats, and the rest slaves-

Kaleithel
03-12-2011, 16:15
Thank you! What about the miniatures I should buy in addition to my army?

giant stegadon
03-12-2011, 16:31
A Grey Seer model comes with the Bell so you don't need an additional model for him unless you want one on foot.

Kaleithel
03-12-2011, 21:07
What about the Special/Rare choices? What could I need?

boli
03-12-2011, 21:38
Personally I split the models from the "mixed" boxes using the the armouered ones as clanrats; and the ones without as slaves - look closely and it works out 10 slaves and 10 Clan Rats per box.

Slaves are awesome; there is no doubt about that BUT if they are outside of the enspiring presence of your general unless you invest in a hero for the slave unit (not worth it tbh) the leadership is going to pretty low (5) so even with steadfast your unit will break when they invariablly loose combat.

Unless you build small throw-away units of slaves you pretty much have to keep them within 12-18" of your general; with this in mind whlist slaves are great... clanrats in general have more use especially if your games have a unit size cap. Unfortunally it is not just a case of painting them all the same and deciding on the day; slaves for instance can't use spears or shields and do not have a full command group (only a musician). so this would limit your clanrat options.

Honestly I would not go beyond 2 units of 50 slaves it would be hard to use anything larger and keep them within the generals leadership circle. Clan Rats with enough ranks can act with more freedom; especially with a hero to add to their hitting power

Whatever you decide you need a minimum of 30 ratz in each unit... ideally 40 (and 50 for slaves) as Skaven work in the principle of the more you have the better it is (strength in numbers tbh!); the only times you want to go smaller than 30 is for a "shooting" army or if the unit in question is going to be a "throwaway unit".

As for "extra" purchases more plague monks is a must (20 is not enough!); and doomwheel and Hell Pit abomination are extremly powerful additions to a skaven army.

Kaleithel
03-12-2011, 22:57
First of all, thank you for your clear and exhaustive advice about the clanrats-skavenslaves number and tactical positioning. However, should I keep both clanrats and skavenslaves in horde formation?


As for "extra" purchases more plague monks is a must (20 is not enough!); and doomwheel and Hell Pit abomination are extremly powerful additions to a skaven army.
The question is: how many monks do I need? 40 would be sufficient? And do I just need one doomwheel and one abomination or more? I would like to use my army in tournaments, too... After some practice with it, ofc.:angel:

boli
04-12-2011, 00:09
First of all, thank you for your clear and exhaustive advice about the clanrats-skavenslaves number and tactical positioning. However, should I keep both clanrats and skavenslaves in horde formation?
Slaves should always be 5 wide; afterall slaves are not units which *win* combat... merely hold up units so having the maximum number of ranks possible is is prefered. 50 slaves in 5x10 would hold up most units for several rounds of combat

As for clanrats... well units which push the bell you might as well do in a horde formation, afterall the bell's footprint is 3x5 and more importantly your unit would be stubbon so you might as well captalise on your # of attacks.

Other units?... well there are two schools of thought

1. Horde everything and overwhem your enemy with sheer number of attacks
2. maximise rank bonus and only have 5x** formations so even if you don't win combat you're not going to run away.

The former means your units are not just "holding units" but have a real chance to win combat in their own right. Afterall we can field a staggering amount of models and the nere sight of 400+ models in a 2000 point game would put even the most experianced general pause for thought.

The latter means your main combat "wins" would come from magic, monsters and warmachines. and your units merely allow you to control the battlefield on your own terms.




The question is: how many monks do I need? 40 would be sufficient? And do I just need one doomwheel and one abomination or more? I would like to use my army in tournaments, too... After some practice with it, ofc.:angel:

I would use 30-40 plague monks. With Frenzy, plague banner, 2 hand weapons and a possible horde formation a unit of plague monks is a huge target for enemy artilery. So you need enough PMs in your unit so by the time you get to their units you have enough f them to actually win combat.

Personally I'm going for 50-60 although I'm sheer numbers... mainly to intimiate my opponants more than anything else :)

Malark
04-12-2011, 00:36
I say you save the Bell for fun and fluffy games. Its too expensive for the effects it brings (I must say its wicked fun to use tho!). From my point of view, your army could very well reinforced with a Plague Furnace and a box of monks for the 20 you already have. I field my plague monk unit 7 wide and 5-6 strong depending on the points of the match. 7 wide is more than enough to cause decent damage without having too much frontage.

IMHO, horde formations while fun, tend to make maneuvers more difficult, and in the case of skaven troops, most of the time you're better having extra ranks to get that precious steadfast. A unit of clanrats or slaves won't win combats on their own (you need precious spells like Death Frenzy or Bless with Filth to make them actually combat worthy); heck even Plague Monks and StormVermin don't excel with horde formations! (Although I do horde up with my stormvermin just for fun ;) ).

With that being said, you definitely need a HPA. It's just an insanely amazing monster that will work wonders on its own agaisnt regular infantry or even other monsters. It can also act as a precious flank/rear charger (thanks to its point and click movement!) to support your tarpit units agaisnt elites.

Doomwheels are fun and beautiful models which can be tricky to use. Warp Lightning Cannons are must, and Plagueclaw Catapults can be nice agaisnt T3 troops.

Finally, may I suggest some Gutter Runners? They are always a welcome addition to deal with warmachines. While we lack any good models for them, you can easily convert them from a clanrat box and some greenstuff.

P.S. Don't forget if you do get a Plague Furnace, you basically now 2 boxes which yield you the chance to get a Grey Seer and Plague Priest on foot in addition to the ones you'd have for your Bell and Furnace!

giant stegadon
04-12-2011, 03:36
Just to clarify- Slaves can use spears & shields as upgrades. They also can take a unit champ & musician, just not a banner. A trick some people do to distinguish Slaves vs. Clanrats is to put Empire Flagellants or goblins in with the slaves. This also conveniently helps boost the size of your slave units if needed.

russellmoo
04-12-2011, 04:43
Generally, a horde of slaves- just ends up reforming to be 5 wide and 20-

you need 40 plague monks-

gutter runners

WLC's are fun, so are doomwheels, an HPA is nasty-

Kaleithel
04-12-2011, 14:45
So let's say I need:
2 Doomwheels
20 Plague Monks
40 Gutter Runners
1 Plague Furnace
1 Abomination
1 Plagueclaw Catapult
1 more Warp Lightning Cannon

Anything else...?

giant stegadon
04-12-2011, 16:46
It might be a good idea to try to play a few games to get a feel for the army, and more importantly, how you like to play. I say that so you don't end up having a ton of models you never use or use only once.

Also keep in mind you only can have 25% max of your list be Rare slot. Your 2 Doomwheels, 1 Plagueclaw cat, 2 Warp Lighting Cannons & 1 Abomb come in at around 815 points...so you'll either have to play 4,000 point games to field everything or just switch things out game to game for everyone to get a turn.

I'd look up some battle reports & army lists to get an idea of what people are doing at various point levels. Fortunately, people are putting them on youtube so you don't even have to read anymore (which also means they can ramble more). Just type in "skaven battle report".

boli
04-12-2011, 19:07
So let's say I need:
2 Doomwheels
20 Plague Monks
40 Gutter Runners
1 Plague Furnace
1 Abomination
1 Plagueclaw Catapult
1 more Warp Lightning Cannon

Anything else...?

Should only need 1 Doomwheel as noted above you would need a larger main army to run both. Unless you plan on having a skaven force which has some flexibility, ditto on the Warp Lightning Cannon.

I don't think you need 40 gutter runners; people may disagree with me here but I would think only 20 Gutter runners would be needed as *ideally* you run them up on the flanks and take out only 3xT3 crew for warmachines and harrass other skirmishers. In both instances 2 groups of 10 or 1 larger group of 20 should be more than enough. 40 Gutter runners woudl have a HUGE footprint on the battle field and be less manovrable.


Just to clarify- Slaves can use spears & shields as upgrades. They also can take a unit champ & musician, just not a banner. A trick some people do to distinguish Slaves vs. Clanrats is to put Empire Flagellants or goblins in with the slaves. This also conveniently helps boost the size of your slave units if needed.

Appologies I forgot you *can* equip them as such; its just most of the time equiping them with such would undermine their greatest advantage (their cheap cost) so I completly forgot.

TheOneHawk
05-12-2011, 04:41
Grey seer on foot. You don't -always- want him on the bell, and sometimes you might want two.

Kaleithel
07-12-2011, 08:46
I see... Since I noticed that the models are quite similar, and I am trying to avoid metal... Would it be viable to use Night Runners models as Gutter Runners?