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View Full Version : Tyranid Hive Tyrant equipment & Carnifex equipment?



Chaos Warlord
03-12-2011, 02:02
i guess its wrong to call it equipment, but either way. whats your take on the options? wich are viable, wich are not?

i had some tyranids about 12 years ago, and i bought some now as a sentimental gift to myself, but i can't conclude wich options are most viable?

is heavy venom cannon viable for both? shour the carnifex in that case have crushing claws aswell?

shoud the tyrant only have four scything talons or should i get a heavy venom cannon there aswell?

the bonesword/lashwhip combo is something i will not use, i find the looks of it quite ugly :eyebrows:

in truth i wanted a melee army, but thinking as i have a bio titan on the way, and that one has two large bio cannons, and no replacements for those are in the right size, im afraid i might have to look at some bio weaponry like heavy venom cannons etc. (since the big bug can't be the only one that has ranged in the army, thats just wrong)

Slug
03-12-2011, 03:36
I'm not an experienced Tyranid player, but the two main options for the Carnifex are twin scything talons, STR 9 with rerolls to hit can hurt a Land Raider (if the 'Fex survives long enough to get close) or double TL devourers with brain leach worms (12 shots at STR 6 with re-rolls to miss). Your option depends on your tactics, the former sounds like the one you need, but the shooting support can be real handy no matter what theme your list uses. They jump from I1 to I3 on the charge, and an adrenal gland gives them I4 on the charge, so having crushing claws drop them back to I1 means I wouldn't recommend them.

There's not a lot wrong with the LW and BS combo on the Hive Tyrant, the opposition strikes at I1 in base to base contact, no armour saves and the chance of an instant kill.

The Heavy venom cannon is okay against infantry, but the -1 unless against open topped vehicles is not real effective.

Slug

Vipoid
03-12-2011, 11:13
Ok, let me go through them one at a time:

Firstly the Hive Tyrant - the Daemon Prince's bloated cousin:

Psychic Powers:
This is an easy one, because he has 2 decent psychic powers (Leech Essence and paroxysm), and 2 others which Cruddace wrote using an orange crayon, after his brain had fled.

Weapons:
If you want a melee tyrant, I'd go with either 2 sets of scything talons, or one set and lash whip & bonesword. If you normally fight SM, guard, Orks, Necrons and other races whose initiative doesn't generally come above 5, then 2 sets of scything talons would probably be best. On the other hand, if you regularly face eldar, dark eldar and GKs with those bloody halberds, then you might want to consider trading one set for the lash whip & bonesword.

In terms of ranged options, he only has 1 worth mentioning - 2 sets of TL devourers. 12 TL S6 shots at 18" can be very useful against both infantry and light vehicles.

Biomorphs:
If your Tyrant often goes up against vehicles, or he hasn't got a lash whip, and you want him to have a small initiative boost, then adrenal glands may be worth taking. However, it is also the *only* biomorph that's worth taking. Regeneration is horribly overpriced and unlikely to do anything. Acid Blood could theoretically combo with lash whip, but a) the tyrant generally loses his wounds to shooting, rather than CC, b) do you really want to devise a strategy based around your 185+pt MC dying, in the hope that he'll damage something valuable? Implant Attack is expensive and unlikely to do anything. Toxin Sacs will make your tyrant worse in combat against most enemies, and the less said about Toxic Miasma, the better.

Carapace options:
Wings are overcosted by at least 20pts, but are a necessary evil if you're not taking guard. Might also be worthwhile if you intend to use Old Adversary.
Armoured Shell is similarly overcosted, but might be useful if you're with guard and tend to fight Dark Eldar a lot.
Wouldn't bother with any of the thorax swarms, but I'd use the 'always wound on 2+' one if I did.

Other Options:
Hive Commander is the only reason I'd even consider taking a Tyrant, but even then, you might be better off considering The Swarmlord instead.
Old Adversary might be worth trying, but I've never had it do much, and certainly not enough to justify the tyrant's immense cost.
The Horror is arguably the worst 'upgrade' in any codex ever.

Tyrant Guard - if you're not giving your tyrant wings, then he should really have a couple of these. Much like the Tyrant, they're overcosted by about 33%, but if you want your tyrant to survive, you don't really have any choice.

Now, you might think I'm being a bit harsh on the Tyrant and his upgrades, but consider this: I could make a winged tyrant that cost 430pts. 430! That's more than the old Nightbringer. However, he would have meager shooting, be marginally better at combat, and would still die to 4 krak rockets.


The Carnifex:
The preferred options for the carnifex are catalyst and toxin sacs, because you should be using the model as a Tervigon.

On the other hand, if you really want to use a carnifex, there's only 1 competative build: 2 sets of TL devourers. That's it. It's as competative as the carnifex gets, and you're still unlikely to see one in any tournament lists.

Also, a note on the barbed strangler and heavy venom cannon - don't use them. The strangler lost a lot of it's sting after its strength dropped from 8 to 6, and doesn't do anything special. The HVC is even worse, as it lacks the number of shots to take down vehicles, the AP to hurt elite troops and the blast radius to hurt infantry blobs. Basically, it's equally terrible at all its possible roles.


One final thing - the above is advice for competative builds. If you're playing friendly games, then feel free to garnish your creatures with whatever you like - just don't expect them to make their points back. :p

Kijamon
03-12-2011, 11:27
I like the guys above advice for competitiveness advice however last night I had a blast with

Hive tyrant - wings, two scything talon sets, old adversary

2 Carnifexes - two scything talon sets and that was all.

THis was against blood angels and the tyrant took a while to get going. The carnifexes certainly rolled lucky on saves and the baal preds didn't hit very well but overall the carnifexes proved a welcome distraction. To be fair the blood angels list is very assaulty but even hiding in cover in the end didn't help since carnifexes strike last most of the time anyway!

Vipoid
03-12-2011, 11:44
I like the guys above advice for competitiveness advice however last night I had a blast with

Hive tyrant - wings, two scything talon sets, old adversary

2 Carnifexes - two scything talon sets and that was all.

THis was against blood angels and the tyrant took a while to get going. The carnifexes certainly rolled lucky on saves and the baal preds didn't hit very well but overall the carnifexes proved a welcome distraction. To be fair the blood angels list is very assaulty but even hiding in cover in the end didn't help since carnifexes strike last most of the time anyway!

Out of interest, why did you go for 2 sets of scything talons on the tyrant, when he already had preferred enemy?

Vampiric16
03-12-2011, 15:05
I should quickly point out that only the D3 attacks from the crushing claws are I1, the other 4 (5 on the charge attacks) are at normal I.
However, 25pts for D3 attacks at I1 is still rubbish, and you're better off sticking with two sets of Scytals if you want a cc fex. The 25pts are better spent on a bio plasma attack (if you want to spend them on the fex of course).

Vipoid
03-12-2011, 15:53
I should quickly point out that only the D3 attacks from the crushing claws are I1, the other 4 (5 on the charge attacks) are at normal I.
However, 25pts for D3 attacks at I1 is still rubbish, and you're better off sticking with two sets of Scytals if you want a cc fex. The 25pts are better spent on a bio plasma attack (if you want to spend them on the fex of course).

No, this is incorrect.

If a carnifex has crushing claws, *all* its attacks strike at I1, not just the extra ones.

It's one of the reasons crushing claws is a terrible upgrade. Carnifexes have WS3, and so against anythign other than gretchin, they'll be missing with half of their attacks anyway, whereas a carnifex with 2 sets of talons gets to reroll all failed rolls to hit.

So, a carnifex with 2x scything talons will hit with 3/4 of its attacks - i.e. 3 hits.

A carnifex with crushing claws will get 6 attacks (average), but will hit with half of them - i.e. 3 hits.

Congratulations, you've just spent 25pts making your carnifex strike at I1, with no benefit whatsoever.

Flying Toaster
03-12-2011, 16:02
Is it sad that im laughing and crying at Vipoid's posts at the same time?

Grimtuff
03-12-2011, 18:28
No, this is incorrect.

If a carnifex has crushing claws, *all* its attacks strike at I1, not just the extra ones.

It's one of the reasons crushing claws is a terrible upgrade. Carnifexes have WS3, and so against anythign other than gretchin, they'll be missing with half of their attacks anyway, whereas a carnifex with 2 sets of talons gets to reroll all failed rolls to hit.

So, a carnifex with 2x scything talons will hit with 3/4 of its attacks - i.e. 3 hits.

A carnifex with crushing claws will get 6 attacks (average), but will hit with half of them - i.e. 3 hits.

Congratulations, you've just spent 25pts making your carnifex strike at I1, with no benefit whatsoever.


Yet it's still not the worst upgrade a Carnifex can take IMO. That award is reserved for Toxin Sacs. ;)

Lathrael
03-12-2011, 18:29
Is it sad that im laughing and crying at Vipoid's posts at the same time?

Same here, and everytime when i dig tyranid codex to find out if i can make something out of it.

Ok, Cruddace got drunk and rushed the codex at hangover, but those supposed to be actually play-tested. This bugs me.

Vipoid
03-12-2011, 20:02
Ok, Cruddace got drunk and rushed the codex at hangover, but those supposed to be actually play-tested. This bugs me.

I honestly doubt anything in this codex was tested - more likely it was just rushed out, and unit costs were either devised by a room full of drunkards.

Either that, or they playtested every unit in the codex to destruction... and then threw the results in a bin.


Same here, and everytime when i dig tyranid codex to find out if i can make something out of it.

Much as I like Tyranids, and enjoy using the models, this particular incarnation can get rather depressing - especially when you try to deviate from the few 'good' models/options.

As an example of a good codex, take DE. I could make a good list, and add say The Decapitator, without much change in it's overall effectiveness. I can still have another HQ, which could even be 3 haemonculi, so I can still have pleanty of support. Maybe he'd do something, maybe he wouldn't - but he could be fun, and I could easily rely on the rest of my force to pick up any slack.

With the Tyranid codex, I generally find myself thinking "Do I want to have fun, or do I want to win, because I can only do one." Most of the units I like*, or want to use just aren't competative (even in friendly games), and the rest of my army can't be relied on at the best of times - let alone when required to pick up slack.

*As an example, I'm one of those silly people who'd actually like to use my Tyranid Prime in combat, rather than as a sponge for S8 weapons.

stereynolds
04-12-2011, 09:10
To agree with Vipod.

Carnifex = TL Devourers, Brainleech worms, Frag Spines = 195pts

Kicks out 12 strength 6 shots a turn and still has strength 9 intiative 4 on the charge. Expensive points wise but great fun to use :P

Also 2 of them can block LOS to a Venomthrope hiding behind them giving cover saves.

Although as mentioned above Tyranids can't do fun and competetive at the same time.

Pyriel
04-12-2011, 09:37
To agree with Vipod.


Although as mentioned above Tyranids can't do fun and competetive at the same time.

STOP.

i can understand the notion that the tyranid codex has problems. but know this-NO army can do fun and competitive at the same time. the only POSSIBLE exception is blood angels DoA, and even that is not the best build of the codex-its just semi-competitive.

Space Marines play razorspam thunderbubble.good luck if you want to use your favourite captain/chaplain model: USELESS. good luck using your land raider: USELESS.good luck using melee dreadnoughts: USELESS. only masses of predators, riflemen and landspeeders along with razorspam and one librarian.

Space Wolves play razorspam & long fangs spam for tons of high-strength shots. what? wanna play melee? good luck with that.

Grey Knights use purifiers spam and/or draigowing, always with psyriflemen. good luck using any champions/purgation squads/melee dreads etc. good luck using flamers to "purge the alien". not viable.

Imperial Guard: hahahahaha! you wanna do anything except leafblower mech-spam? are you crazy?...wha, you wanna use characters and/or stormtroopers? pfft!

Chaos Space Marines: you wanna do World Eaters?... dont even try it, pal.just...dont.

Black Templars: the only difference between Templars and Tau is using tankhunter terminators with dual cyclone missiles for shooting instead of crisis suits with twinlinked missile pods. oh, and landspeeders instead of piranhas.um...whats the difference again?...(good luck playing melee black templars, you'll lose 90% of the time)


I can go on and on. fun/fluffy warhammer 40k and competitive 40k are two COMPLETELY different animals. its not just the tyranids(who have other problems, i agree, but THIS specific problem isnt theirs). live with it.stop finding additional excuses to whine about the codex, this only serves to hide its true weaknesses.

-Loki-
04-12-2011, 09:51
I've actually had fun using a Stranglethorn Cannon on my Carnifex. Granted, my main opponent is a Dark Eldar player who doesn't mech spam. The most I have to deal with is a pair of Raiders, which my Hive Guard and Zoanthropes can deal with easily.

Quite often my Carnifex gets in a duel with his Scourges and wins. While they kick out about 30 poisoned shots at the Carnifex, they've never killed it (granted he seems to roll terribly and I roll 3+ saves like a champ), and it manages to keep them pinned and obliterate chunks of the squad turn after turn.

This isn't an endorsment of the competitiveness of a Carnifex with a Stranglethorn cannon, merely my experience taking one in a completely uncompetitive environment. I also run Hormagaunts with adrenal glands over Tervigoned up Termagants and Tyranid Warriors with a Venom Cannon, which probably says more about my gaming envonrment.

Vampiric16
04-12-2011, 12:44
@Vipoid: Yes, sorry, you're right. Just re-read the entry. In fairness I havent used the claws since previous ed for the reasons you stated.

N.I.B.
05-12-2011, 10:41
For the 5th ed Tyranid codex it was important to nerf the Carnifex into the ground to drive the sales of the new stuff, because all old Nid players had loads of them. Cruddace didn't want the Carnifex to rival the Trygon in cc and potentially threaten the sales of the new and shiny stuff, but he couldn't really remove Crushing Claws completely as an option without pissing people off because the sprue still comes with them, so he made them useless instead.
Crushing Claws are better on Tervigons who has I1 anyway, but 6 wounds and access to FNP to soak up an attack and dish out back.

Vampiric16
05-12-2011, 11:39
I'd still have bought a trygon even if the carnifex was better value in game terms. It's too cool a model not to have in the collection. Besides, they'd still get sales from people wanting to convert the three other shiny new monstrous creatures THAT STILL DON'T HAVE MODELS YET!
*ahem*
Sorry, i'm normally a lot more composed, I'm just a little bit absolutely livid.

Vipoid
05-12-2011, 11:51
For the 5th ed Tyranid codex it was important to nerf the Carnifex into the ground to drive the sales of the new stuff, because all old Nid players had loads of them. Cruddace didn't want the Carnifex to rival the Trygon in cc and potentially threaten the sales of the new and shiny stuff, but he couldn't really remove Crushing Claws completely as an option without pissing people off because the sprue still comes with them, so he made them useless instead.

You can sell new models without completely nerfing old ones, but somehow I doubt that Cruddace has even heard the word 'niche'.



Crushing Claws are better on Tervigons who has I1 anyway, but 6 wounds and access to FNP to soak up an attack and dish out back.

Crushing claws make Tervigon marginally better in combat. Basically, on the charge, it'll get 3 hits, instead of 2. Is that really worth 25pts?

In addition, Tervigons shouldn't be getting into combat anyway (except possibly with vehicles), and giving them claws would simply add the temptation to throw one into a melee, regardless.

In essence, it's 25pts that would be far better spent on either more models, or on further improving the CC abilities of units that are actually good in CC.

Mojaco
05-12-2011, 12:13
STOP.

i can understand the notion that the tyranid codex has problems. but know this-NO army can do fun and competitive at the same time.
Mostly true, but I like to think Eldar, Dark Eldar and Orks do a pretty good job at combining the two. Sure you'd be spamming some elements, but not at the expense of the army's essense.

Kijamon
05-12-2011, 12:13
Out of interest, why did you go for 2 sets of scything talons on the tyrant, when he already had preferred enemy?

Sorry never saw your reply. The only reason is that I have two hive tyrants, one with wings and 2 sets of scything talons, one without being built yet and I fancied a battle!

In the game I was playing we were very limited for points but I was determined to get him in there. I found just pre battle I had the points to spare so I stuck that in. It was blood angels I was playing so I wanted to kill them before they hit me back.

Threeshades
05-12-2011, 13:29
STOP.

i can understand the notion that the tyranid codex has problems. but know this-NO army can do fun and competitive at the same time. the only POSSIBLE exception is blood angels DoA, and even that is not the best build of the codex-its just semi-competitive.

Space Marines play razorspam thunderbubble.good luck if you want to use your favourite captain/chaplain model: USELESS. good luck using your land raider: USELESS.good luck using melee dreadnoughts: USELESS. only masses of predators, riflemen and landspeeders along with razorspam and one librarian.

Space Wolves play razorspam & long fangs spam for tons of high-strength shots. what? wanna play melee? good luck with that.

Grey Knights use purifiers spam and/or draigowing, always with psyriflemen. good luck using any champions/purgation squads/melee dreads etc. good luck using flamers to "purge the alien". not viable.

Imperial Guard: hahahahaha! you wanna do anything except leafblower mech-spam? are you crazy?...wha, you wanna use characters and/or stormtroopers? pfft!

Chaos Space Marines: you wanna do World Eaters?... dont even try it, pal.just...dont.

Black Templars: the only difference between Templars and Tau is using tankhunter terminators with dual cyclone missiles for shooting instead of crisis suits with twinlinked missile pods. oh, and landspeeders instead of piranhas.um...whats the difference again?...(good luck playing melee black templars, you'll lose 90% of the time)


I can go on and on. fun/fluffy warhammer 40k and competitive 40k are two COMPLETELY different animals. its not just the tyranids(who have other problems, i agree, but THIS specific problem isnt theirs). live with it.stop finding additional excuses to whine about the codex, this only serves to hide its true weaknesses.

And yet, if you do put up an army geared towards fluff and fun it will turn out vastly superior than anything you can put together with tyranids under the same premise.

Okay I'll leave CSM and BT out of it, but only because Templars are old as dirt by now and CSM are the other special kid of the codex family.


The standard we should be looking at is no less than Dark Eldar. Sure they also have spam lists, but they have the highest concentration of viable units in the entire game at the moment.

Though if we really wanted to see well-balanced game design, we'd have to look at GW's competition.

Souleater
06-12-2011, 08:36
The Carnifex:
On the other hand, if you really want to use a carnifex, there's only 1 competative build: 2 sets of TL devourers. :p

Yes, which weirdly halved the competitive builds for Fexes, leaving one of the most complained about builds still in existence but 50% more expensive.

As to you point on Crushing Claws - don't forget that for the same points in the last codex they did at least give the model a measly half an extra attack on average. But they managed to make them worse. :eek:

Vipoid
06-12-2011, 13:51
As to you point on Crushing Claws - don't forget that for the same points in the last codex they did at least give the model a measly half an extra attack on average. But they managed to make them worse. :eek:

Yeah, crushing claws were overpriced in the last codex, but at least then you weren't paying 25pts to make your model worse in combat. They were at least decent if you wanted your model to have a gun, but still have a lot of attacks in combat (or, at least, the potential for a lot of attacks in combat). And in a friendly game, you could always try that one build that could potentially get 13 attacks on the charge.

From a competative standpoint, they were too expensive and unreliable to be much use. However, I generally look at new codices as a way of fixing old problems, rather than just making the old ones even worse, and then topping them off with a bunch of even-worse ones. :eyebrows:

N.I.B.
07-12-2011, 14:51
I agree that Crushing Claws isn't good on Tervigons. I just said they were better than on a Carnifex. Crushing Claws on a Tervigon should be seen as primarily an anti-vehicle tool.

And it depends a bit on your build. Nids aren't spoiled with anti-mech so every little bit counts. The guy who invented the Tyranid Deathstar use(d) 3 tooled-up Tervigons with Crushing Claws, apparently with good results. Especially as he combines those 6-7 S5-6 attacks with Old Adversary.