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Grocklock
03-12-2011, 10:56
Useing marines for different armies.

There is a simular thred to this one but it doesn't go quite far enough. I have some senarios below in regards to marines, let me know if you would have an issue with this or weather or

1, If I had an ultramarine army which I had been playing for years as the basic codex, then switched to blood angels for a different flavour, is this ok.

2, If i had bought a blood angels armie but painted them blue is this an issue.

3, If I had a marine army, and played them one week as, standed, next as wolf third as chaos, would this be an issue.

4, Im making a 'knights of blood' (blood angels successor chapter). Which is falling to chaos slowly, would it be an issue to use them as both blood angels and chaos armie.

Just wanted to point out that, I tend to build a list and stick to it, I do have multible lists in my bag just incase we require to play at different points levels. Although I do find that the points levels are the same. My list is not tooled towards a perticular army nor person, as this is not fun for me. Where I play we have a prewritten list, then you are assined an opponent, then you roll to see the game you are playing.

I have only parted from this if the senario is a special one, like planet strike etc...

Bunnahabhain
03-12-2011, 11:09
So long as you make it clear which codex you are using, and all wargear and potions are clear and sensible, then it is fine.

However, constant codex hopping to whatever is most powerful this week tends to annoy people, especially if you're using flavourless net lists.

If you want a Marine force that can use any marine rules, by far the best solution is to have a custom chapter. Nobody but you can say which rules the 'Knights of Vengeance' or 'Crusaders of Patrix' should use. If you have a Blood Angel or Space Wolf force, then they do have their own rules.

Plus, a self invented chapter can't have their background messed up by Matt Ward

enygma7
03-12-2011, 11:30
In purely game terms, no problem with any of those points.

There are two things that are likely to cause problems with certain people.

The first is the perception that you are simply switching to whichever codex has the most powerful rules (Grey Wolf Angels of Ultramar syndrome). The second is if you are using a chapter with established fluff/codex and playing using a completely different codex that is contrary to that chapters fluff. Background is important for many people and it will make them uncomfortable if your using ultramarines riding thunder cats.

The easy way to avoid all issues is to invent your own chapter with whatever colour scheme and iconography you want. I'd certainly have no problems with the knights of blood, especially if it was done well and tastefully (i.e. themed according to its background. If they are falling to chaos slowly I'd be suspicious as to your actual motives if you turn up with 9 obliterators, loads of plague marines and a greater daemon of khorne).

homunkulus
03-12-2011, 12:32
I really hate how often this topic comes up. I guess credit has to go to GW for making (creating makes it sound more original than it actually is) a universe people care so deeply about that they will argue with people who for all intents and purposes could be a hypothetical situation on an exam about what colour they paint their toy soldiers.

drear
03-12-2011, 12:41
this topic has been done to death.

if you build an army paint it purple and use spacewolves..thats fine.

if you build an army, paint it purple and then continually change its codex for wolves, angels,and vanilla marines..its not right. pick one and play it, dont just hop between power codexes to get an advantage.

in the end it just makes your army confusing to play with and against. greyhunters carry diffrent equipment to tactical marines. dreads take up diffrent slots etc
you screw yourself in the end , when you end up with force weapon carrying space wolves with winged jumpacks, feeling sad about the fact they are sevral codexes..

Grocklock
03-12-2011, 12:43
Thanks for the comments, the knights of blood are achually in the blood angels codex, with a little fluff on page 54 (Which I loved). They are renogades but do help out the imperium some times.

I was going to use marine models, (not chaos) but have suttle changes such as the imperial eagle being scrattched of of the plates. Something like that. The Sanguinary guard, are going to represent possessed, Warp the wings so they look like they are coming out of the marines back.

But I do like the idea of creating my own chapter. I have the background worked out for one. But I want to put alot of work into the models so that it looks good. Last thing I want is people to look at it and think im just doing it for the rules.

althathir
03-12-2011, 20:01
1. Yeah this is fine.

2. You can paint your army however you want, the only time someone might have an issue is if you have a different chapters markings on them, and didn't tell them ahead of time. The underlined part is really the important part just tell people what army you are using.

3. Depends on whether your trying out new books or not. For the most part its not gonna be an issue the problem you mught run into is people thinking your doing it for powergaming reasons but if you avoid spamming broken units and again tell people what your playing they won't have a problem.

4. People would probably like this option more than #3, again it shouldn't be issue.

A chaos legions codex is rumoured to be in the works and it might really fit with what you want to do, so pay to attention to that as well.

baphomael
03-12-2011, 20:31
Thanks for the comments, the knights of blood are achually in the blood angels codex, with a little fluff on page 54 (Which I loved). They are renogades but do help out the imperium some times.

I was going to use marine models, (not chaos) but have suttle changes such as the imperial eagle being scrattched of of the plates. Something like that. The Sanguinary guard, are going to represent possessed, Warp the wings so they look like they are coming out of the marines back.

But I do like the idea of creating my own chapter. I have the background worked out for one. But I want to put alot of work into the models so that it looks good. Last thing I want is people to look at it and think im just doing it for the rules.

Just a little point on the Knights of Blood. There are two 'Knights of Blood' renegade warbands. One is a Chaos warband, whose heraldry is black and red with a Juggernaut head as their emblem.

The other is a renegade Blood Angel successor chapter, whose colours are red and silver, and their emblem is a white shield with a red blood-drop crossed by two black swords.

I'm assuming the chapter you speak of is the latter, but bear in mind that renegade ≠ 'Chaos'. We don't really know why the Knights of Blood (that is, the Blood Angels ones) were declared renegade. What we do know is that they still 'help' their space marine kin, and are noted as helping to defend baal from Chaos predation (in the form of Ka'Bandha'd daemonic forces).

Given this, it is possible that, whilst officially renegade, the Knights of Blood are not necessarily chaos marines (which is not unheard of, there are renegade chapters who are not affiliated with Chaos).


The renegade chaos warband of the same name, however, definitely are followers of chaos and likely khorne devotees (given the juggernaut symbol), though again we know little about them - we dont know which legion/chapter they were originally.


So, to sum up, their are two bands that share the name 'Knights of Blood' - one that is very definitely Khorneate, but whose providence is not known, while the other is a Blood Angel successor chapter declared renegade for unknown reasons which is, likely, not Chaos orientated.

Korraz
03-12-2011, 22:52
Long story short:
Do whatever you want with your stuff, but don't expect me or anyone else to like it.

We've been over this dozens of times.

Scorpion0x17
03-12-2011, 23:13
Paint one arm blue, one arm red, the head green, the torso black, one leg light grey, one leg boltgun.

Problem solved!

:P

Harwammer
03-12-2011, 23:27
Going back to the 'two' Knights of Blood forces what periods of time do they feature in the 40k setting? I know the imperium sometimes recreates 'lost' chapters, could it be the chaos force is the previous incarnation of the chapter? Or perhaps they are the same force but one version is from an early instance of the setting? My apologies if this would belong better to a background forum thread but this seemed a good time to raise the question.

Wishing
04-12-2011, 00:30
My guess is that the two groups are entirely unrelated, and just happen to have chosen the same name because it is a very typical sounding GW-style name. :) (it would be fun to mix in some Blood Knight models from WFB into these armies just for lulz...)

pcx64
04-12-2011, 01:24
Hi,

I hope I am not hitchiking your thread Groklock. I too have the same question in mind, but this is mostly on the weapon side. I like the looks of plasma rifle and the lascannon but I find it expensive to use. For the sake of looks, I guess its ok to use the model with a different gun as long as I state it first before the game start, am I right?

azimaith
04-12-2011, 01:34
Whats the difference between Bor'kan Tau and D'yanoi?
Color scheme.

Whats the difference (model wise) between Blood Angels and Ultramarines.
Color scheme.

Chaos is a little different but counts as is just part of the nature of 40k.

Haeslich
04-12-2011, 06:00
Obviously you are asking for declarations of legality. I can only attest to my personal opinion and what as generally acceptable at my LGS. Doesn't mean any of my answers carry over outside of those two realms. Preface stated, here goes:

1. Yes, that is ok.

2. No it is not an issue.

3. It depends on your motive. If you are not rich in models, want to swap to a second army and you are using this as a way to try armies out without investing the cash, then yes I am ok with it. If you are a FotM player who is only searching for whatever army is currently OP, then the answer is No.

4. The way I am reading this question you want to field an army utilizing both codices simultaneously. If this is what you are trying to do I would say absolutely not. Codices are balanced (take that word with a grain of salt) internally. To my knowledge none are ever meant to be used in conjunction with another army list simultaneously.

totgeboren
04-12-2011, 10:12
I too have the same question in mind, but this is mostly on the weapon side. I like the looks of plasma rifle and the lascannon but I find it expensive to use. For the sake of looks, I guess its ok to use the model with a different gun as long as I state it first before the game start, am I right?

This is a quite easy question. Have you played MTG or some other collectable card game? If you have, this is simply the same as saying,
"I would really like some cards X, but they cost a lot because they are rare and everyone wants them. Is it ok if I just scribble them down on paper and play them like that?"

Of course, most people who plays a collectible would not be fine with that at all. However, your friends would likely be fine with it for a few games, if you just want to test something out before buying.

The collectible bit is important to most people, otherwise they would not spend the money on the models in the first place. I mean, there is no stopping anyone from just printing photocopies of models, gluing them on cardboard and mounting them on bases. Much cheaper and just as playable.

Poseidal
04-12-2011, 10:18
As long as you're consistent, play Grey Bloodwolves with Tau, Eldar or any models as long as there are clear differences with units.

Hellebore
04-12-2011, 10:32
As always, if a codex is legal then it doesn't matter the context in which your little plastic toys are being used. GW army lists are already counts as because they write a set of abstract mechanics and represent them with plastic tokens. There have now been 4 blood angel codices. Each one was different and yet all were legitimate. Therefore even GW doesn't stick consistently to what 'counts as' they use for their toys. There have been 4 different sets of rules for the assault cannon, yet they all used the same model.

If it's a GW codex then it's legal and useable. That your army is painted a different colour to the one in the book matters not one jot. Anyone that says otherwise is merely using an emotive reaction to someone not spending as much money as them.

This wouldn't be an issue if GW didn't insist on having HALF A DOZEN slightly different space marine armies. Then there's the fact that GW keep stealing unique abilities/strengths from every other army and giving them to marine armies so you might as well use marine rules because they do what you want to do only better. I wouldn't be surprised if you get codex "Muscle Mutant Marines" that have all the advantages and flavour of the ork codex, but with BS4 and a 3+ armour save...

If the 'next' marine codex is a 'power list' then the CODEX should be banned from clubs, not people who decided to use a different colour scheme. Why does colour legitimise your army? The mechanics are all you interact with in the game and if they are legal then they are legal. Anything else is a double standard.

EDIT: I personally wouldn't do this because I like every army having its own background and identity, but that doesn't mean it's somehow illegal to do it.

Hellebore

Griefbringer
04-12-2011, 11:05
Paint one arm blue, one arm red, the head green, the torso black, one leg light grey, one leg boltgun.

Problem solved!


Except that some less educated individuals might then end up mistaking them for Rainbow Warriors chapter...

Hellebore
04-12-2011, 11:44
No the easiest is to not paint them at all because then people can't whinge they're the wrong colour. You know there's something wrong with people's arguments when UNPAINTED models are more accepted than painted ones...:eyebrows:

Hellebore

ashc
04-12-2011, 12:05
I sympathise with Chaos players wanting to use the loyalist books; our book sucks.

Feels more like bandwagoning with some groups of loyalist players though, especially when someone's painted ultramarines army has gone from codex to space wolves to blood angels over time...

BaronDG
04-12-2011, 12:08
Honest? I wouldn't like it. I have a hard time remebering stuff anyway, but at least I can look things up in the codex. But if you were playing three different codices at different times? It would be hell for me.

But if you meet some people for whom this is not an issue, go right ahead.

As for weapons, they are even more important to be right and proper. I confuse easily.

baphomael
04-12-2011, 13:26
Going back to the 'two' Knights of Blood forces what periods of time do they feature in the 40k setting? I know the imperium sometimes recreates 'lost' chapters, could it be the chaos force is the previous incarnation of the chapter? Or perhaps they are the same force but one version is from an early instance of the setting? My apologies if this would belong better to a background forum thread but this seemed a good time to raise the question.


999.M41 the Knights of Blood chapter are recorded as helping defend baal from Ka'Bandha and hive fleet leviathan.

999.M41 the knights of blood warband attack Ornsworld and kill over 90% of its population.


So their definitely contemporaneous.

yabbadabba
04-12-2011, 13:34
Its your hobby, and the most important opinions in this are the people you play with, not a bunch of anonymous posters on a forum site.

Do what you want in this hobby, as long as you and your mates are having fun. Everything else is unimportant.

Grocklock
04-12-2011, 16:56
Thanks for the comments, I like to get ideas form people outside of my normal group of friends. It was really the last one I was after. My army is going to be the knights of blood from the blood angels codex. who have gone renagade. The background being that as they have lost contact with the imperium. The commander has been in conversations with a deamon. He belives he has control over it but he is slowly slipping.

My commander model will have a cloak but materialising out of the cloak will be a deamon, wispering into his ear.
Thought it was cool.

The army will be restrickted to units and upgrades i can find in both the blood angels and chaos book. Although by the time I get alot of this done the new leigion book will be out (fingers crossed).

Spider-pope
04-12-2011, 17:01
Useing marines for different armies.

There is a simular thred to this one but it doesn't go quite far enough. I have some senarios below in regards to marines, let me know if you would have an issue with this or weather or

1, If I had an ultramarine army which I had been playing for years as the basic codex, then switched to blood angels for a different flavour, is this ok.


I wouldnt refuse to play you, but i would be dubious as to your motivation for using them as Blood Angels - were you doing it just for a perceived advantage.



2, If i had bought a blood angels armie but painted them blue is this an issue.


Wouldn't bother me in the slightest



3, If I had a marine army, and played them one week as, standed, next as wolf third as chaos, would this be an issue.


Again with the first option, i wouldnt refuse to play but i would question your motives.



4, Im making a 'knights of blood' (blood angels successor chapter). Which is falling to chaos slowly, would it be an issue to use them as both blood angels and chaos armie.

This largely depends on how you do it, and what makes you decide to use either codex - is it for variety or because Chaos/Blood Angels happen to be better against my particular army.

Ultimately though our opinions are moot, it's the people you are going to play against that you need to consider.

Grocklock
04-12-2011, 17:17
Just wanted to point out that, I tend to build a list and stick to it, I do have multible lists in my bag just incase we require to play at different points levels. Although I do find that the points levels are the same. My list is not tooled towards a perticular army nor person, as this is not fun for me. Where I play we have a prewritten list, then you are assined an opponent, then you roll to see the game you are playing.

I have only parted from this if the senario is a special one, like planet strike etc...

prowla
04-12-2011, 19:11
The only negative thing you might get is a few minuses in a tournie "paint and fluff" points (and a few comments).

Grocklock
04-12-2011, 19:58
The only negative thing you might get is a few minuses in a tournie "paint and fluff" points (and a few comments).

Is this in relation to my idea to use a chaos army but only using units that feature in both the chaos book and the blood angels dex, that seams fluffy to me.

decker_cky
04-12-2011, 20:05
999.M41 the Knights of Blood chapter are recorded as helping defend baal from Ka'Bandha and hive fleet leviathan.

999.M41 the knights of blood warband attack Ornsworld and kill over 90% of its population.


So their definitely contemporaneous.

Obviously nobody ever does anything twice in the same year. :rolleyes:

baphomael
04-12-2011, 20:30
Thanks for the comments, I like to get ideas form people outside of my normal group of friends. It was really the last one I was after. My army is going to be the knights of blood from the blood angels codex. who have gone renagade. The background being that as they have lost contact with the imperium. The commander has been in conversations with a deamon. He belives he has control over it but he is slowly slipping.

My commander model will have a cloak but materialising out of the cloak will be a deamon, wispering into his ear.
Thought it was cool.

The army will be restrickted to units and upgrades i can find in both the blood angels and chaos book. Although by the time I get alot of this done the new leigion book will be out (fingers crossed).


Sounds cool, I'd really like to see the 'whispering daemon' idea. Perhaps Huron Blackheart's 'hamadrya' pet thingy might work, it wouldn't be too big as to draw attention away from the captain model, and is already in a suitably curvy shape so that it could be positioned so it's curling round to whisper right into his ear. A cut hear, a little green stuff to smooth the 'blend' between cloak and daemon there, and I reckon it could look pretty cool.

Good think with the Knights of Blood (either the chapter or the warband) is the fluff is quite light, giving room for your own interpretation. Given that the blood angel successor Knights of Blood still assist the Imperium (from a distance, after all they are wanted men) then it might be worth playing on the idea that they dont realise how damned - that they are renegades, but not in the 'Death to the False Emperor!!!' way. In some ways, kinda similar to the Soul Drinkers.



In terms of which codex you use to field them, I think it all comes down to personal judgement and sympathy toward the fluff. If it seems reasonable, and can be justified in a way that fits with the fluff, then I'd have no problem at all. If it fits the theme then great (for example, using the Grey Knights codex in an appropriate manner to represent a Custodes army would be great, and I'd encourage it. Using the Grey Knights codex to field an army of Terminators because one doesnt like the Deathwing options in the Dark Angel codex...not so much).


So, if your being sympathetic to the fluff and finding an interesting way to interpret the fluff that is in keeping with the source material, that's something to be encouraged.

However, from the sound of it, I'd say it would probably be more appropriate to stick with the Blood Angel codex. Given that the Blood Angel codex references the Knights of Blood, and the Knights of Blood are relatively recent renegades who are probably not full-on chaos worshipping nutjobs, then I doubt they've strayed too far, if at all, from the standard organisation and battlefield doctrine of their Blood Angel parents - stuff like the Blood Rage and Death Companies are still going to crop up.

Perhaps, for purposes of theme, you might want to limit certain unit choices to represent being 'cut off' from the Imperium - afterall, being outlaws would seriously hamper their logistical support. Things like plasma weapons, terminator armour, perhaps some Blood Angel specific items, might all be things that these renegades would find difficult to replace - so as attrition takes its toll the number of these items would begin to dwindle.

Blood Angels, and their loyalist successors, might not find it such a problem to replace a Baal Predator if it gets blown up. A chapter of renegades that are now officially personae non gratae might find it incredibly difficult to replace such a tank if they've been cut off from the infrastructure that supplies them.

In a similar vain, from my Heresy era Sons of Horus army I deliberately limit certain unit choices to better represent what would be available during that historical period e.g, Land Raider Crusaders/Redeemers are out of the question - the Crusader wouldn't be discovered for another 9000 years, and the inventors for the Redeemer, the Fire Lords, didn't exist yet.


Obviously nobody ever does anything twice in the same year. :rolleyes:

No, but it is a very short space of time to mount a campaign to save baal from daemons, then decide to become frothing maniacs and launch a campaign to exterminate the population of an entire planet. Seems a stretch, to me, that all of that could happen in the space of one year. Even disregarding how long it would feasibly take to execute the individual campaigns in question, what happened? Did the Knights of Blood wake up one morning and decide "y'know what, I think we should throw our lot in with Khorne and go commit some genocide, screw Baal".

No, I think it's more likely they are two separate groups of renegades that happen to share the same name, probably due to Mat Ward not realising the name had already been used in the Chaos codex.

TheMav80
04-12-2011, 20:56
Use whatever you want. I do it.

A Space Marine model with a bolter is WYSIWYG across every single marine codex. It doesn't matter what color he is painted. It doesn't matter if his legs are from a Tactical Marine box, with the head of a Grey Hunter, torso of a Grey Knight, and arms of a Chaos Marine.

It is clearly a Space Marine. It is clearly carrying a bolter. Tell me what codex you are using and that is all I need to know.

Sildani
05-12-2011, 01:43
Out of curiosity, are the Silver Skulls a Codex Chapter?

Poseidal
05-12-2011, 08:29
As far as I remember. I can't remember who they are a successor of though.

Blink
05-12-2011, 08:36
Come at me with all you got. I couldn't care less if you played Tau with your Marine models as long as I knew what everything was. If you have a strong list, I want to fight it.

Spider-pope
05-12-2011, 13:49
No, I think it's more likely they are two separate groups of renegades that happen to share the same name, probably due to Mat Ward not realising the name had already been used in the Chaos codex.

I'm not sure where the problem is really. The paragraph on the Knights in Codex Blood Angels flat out states they've been going around causing carnage on various Imperial worlds supposedly to kill the enemies of the Emperor, but that they consider themselves loyalist.

If Baal was threatened, they'd be bound to go and help, because in their twisted minds they are still the good guys. What is questionable is the Blood Angels acceptance of their help, but then this is from the same Codex that taints the Blood Angels fluff even further with alliances with Xenos races.

AndrewGPaul
05-12-2011, 14:09
Alternatively, some of the Knights of Blood have gone more mental than others and have become out-and-out Chaos worshippers. Like the Dark Angels during the Heresy, in a way.

As to the OP, I'm not really saure I see the point of:


Thanks for the comments, I like to get ideas form people outside of my normal group of friends.

After all, it's your normal group of friends who will ensure whther you can play or not. :)

Personally speaking, I'm all for it. A friend of mine had a homebrew Space Marine chapter designed so that any Space Marine codex could be used to represent different formations within the chapter.

Actually, the Space Marine, Dark Angels and Blood Angels codexes can all be used to represent different formations within a standard Codex chapter;

Codex: Dark Angels lets you field a First Company Terminator force or a Reserve Company force mounted in bikes and speeders.

Codex: Blood Angels lets you field a Reserve Assault company

and Codex: Space Marines lets you field a force from one of the Battle Companies, the reserve Tactical company or the Scout company.

So far there isn't a codex which lets you field a force from the Reserve Devastator company (unless you count Space Wolves over-using Long Fang squads)

The Space Wolves, Black Templars and Grey Knights books are a little bit more interesting to explain, but I could see Codex: Space Wolves being used to represent a veteran company in power armour, with some Terminators.

It makes things more interesting, IMO, for the Marine player and his opponents, by letting them change armies for the relatively low cost of a new book.

Bunnahabhain
05-12-2011, 14:33
The versatility to do this is one thing, but does it need to be in several books? I think it isn't.

Is the ability to do a devastator company really something that is wanted? I suppose all it needs is a simple unlock to make devastators troops, so it can't hurt to add in. It's not as if it's ever going to be a game-breaking option, due to the lack of assault ability ,or mobility to take objectives...

baphomael
05-12-2011, 14:40
I'm not sure where the problem is really. The paragraph on the Knights in Codex Blood Angels flat out states they've been going around causing carnage on various Imperial worlds supposedly to kill the enemies of the Emperor, but that they consider themselves loyalist.

If Baal was threatened, they'd be bound to go and help, because in their twisted minds they are still the good guys. What is questionable is the Blood Angels acceptance of their help, but then this is from the same Codex that taints the Blood Angels fluff even further with alliances with Xenos races.

It is possible the two groups could be one-in-the-same, but a year (tops) to launch two major offensives whilst descending into full on Khorne worship in between seems a bit too short a time-frame.

I guess its the heraldry that does it for me. Heraldry is important for a Marine - its a visual symbol of who they are. Presumably, the codex: blood angels Knights of Blood, by still maintaining their chapter heraldry, still maintain some allusions to 'loyal' motivations.

The Knights of Blood in the chaos codex, if we take them as the same chapter, have thrown all pretences toward loyalty out the window by openly wearing heraldry showing their dedication to one of the Ruinous Powers (let alone, the Ruinous Power that just the same year they were fighting - although, potentially, that exposure could have been the catalyst).

I just find it hard to believe a chapter could prosecute a campaign against a daemonic incursion, descend into full-blown madness, and then go off to commit a bit genocide elsewhere in the space of a single year. That would leave each event; the Knights of Blood helping out at Baal, the tipping point that turns them to full-on Khorne worship, the time it takes to travel to Ornsworld and the time it takes to kill over 90% of the population, as each happening in the space of a few months.



(Another thought, Lexicanum puts the massacre at Ornsworld as 699.999.M41, giving even less time for all of the above to happen. Of course, Lexicanum isnt always the most accurate of sources but its something to consider).

In all, I think its more likely a coincidence in naming (either that, or if they were intended to be the same renegades, just not thinking about how the dates work).

ashc
05-12-2011, 15:38
WRT the Knights of Blood, I wonder if they have 'done a Dark Angels'.

Wyrmwood
05-12-2011, 15:53
Out of curiosity, are the Silver Skulls a Codex Chapter?


As far as I remember. I can't remember who they are a successor of though.
Ultramarines.

Techpriest
05-12-2011, 18:40
I recently had a similiar issue. But it was not as drastic. I Made an Army list, and Because I like the Salamaders and the color scheme, I made them a Salamanders army. Now, mind you, I am using them as Salamanders and they are painted as Salamanders, but because I gave them Bikes as troops and Speeders in fast, I was getting all kinds of crap abou tit. Being told "Thats not a Salamanders Army" And "You should read the fluff, Salamanders do not use bikes!" Well Thsi is my hobby as well as any one elses, and I am not Codex hoping, I am not doing anything counts as, but since I use a different unit then what the fluff might say is normal, I got a bunch of crap.

What is the big deal if I want to make my Marines Salamanders on bikes? And for that matter, since I have the army, What woudl be the big deal if I wanted ot try and run them like White Scars? The Models are the same!

ashc
05-12-2011, 18:43
Ah, the bane of good players everywhere, the dreaded restricted mindset lists of Olde-Editiones.

Vaktathi
05-12-2011, 18:51
There's nothing wrong with Salamanders running bikes and speeders as long as they aren't the bulk of your force. They aren't a Ravenwing army but they aren't nonexistent amongst their armies either.

Techpriest
05-12-2011, 18:55
So if I paint buy my models, paint them Black and Green, and make them into a bike Army, I cannot call them slamanders becuase they are not supposed to have a lot within the army? Any and every style of Army can be explained. And because I do not like painting my models white and red, and do not want to make a White Scars army, I should not play them the way I like? That is what I do not get.

ashc
05-12-2011, 18:58
So if I paint buy my models, paint them Black and Green, and make them into a bike Army, I cannot call them slamanders becuase they are not supposed to have a lot within the army? Any and every style of Army can be explained. And because I do not like painting my models white and red, and do not want to make a White Scars army, I should not play them the way I like? That is what I do not get.

I concur Techpriest. That's why I am not fussed on Chaos players using marine books either.

StraightEdge
05-12-2011, 19:00
Instead of spending that much on different codex's why not invest that into elite units that you can use. Plus switching armies makes tactics sometime hard on the individual.

AndrewGPaul
05-12-2011, 19:30
The versatility to do this is one thing, but does it need to be in several books? I think it isn't.

Is the ability to do a devastator company really something that is wanted? I suppose all it needs is a simple unlock to make devastators troops, so it can't hurt to add in. It's not as if it's ever going to be a game-breaking option, due to the lack of assault ability ,or mobility to take objectives...

I'm sure there are better ways to do it. I was merely suggesting a reason why someone would wish to use the same miniatures with different rules. As for fielding an entirely Devastator army, there is gaming beyond the narrow world of the scenarios in the rule book. :) Anyway, it's somewhat beside the point; sorry.

ashc
05-12-2011, 19:34
Captain Androcles in the Badab War books from forgeworld allows devastators as both elites and heavy support.

For those interested...

Vaktathi
05-12-2011, 20:04
So if I paint buy my models, paint them Black and Green, and make them into a bike Army, I cannot call them slamanders becuase they are not supposed to have a lot within the army? Any and every style of Army can be explained. And because I do not like painting my models white and red, and do not want to make a White Scars army, I should not play them the way I like? That is what I do not get.

Nothing is preventing you from doing so, but it doesn't really jive with the fluff if you're playing a biker army as Salamanders, just as me playing my Iron Warriors as Doa Blood Angels jump-infantry spam, or Grey Knights, or with nothing but Spawn, Possessed and Khorne Berzerkers wouldn't really fit either, so expect to get weird looks/comments, it's just the way things are.

Many of these forces are built around very specific themes and builds, deviating highly from that tends to, of course, get weird reactions from people because you've broken the preconceptions and the immersion.

Wishing
06-12-2011, 00:06
Many of these forces are built around very specific themes and builds, deviating highly from that tends to, of course, get weird reactions from people because you've broken the preconceptions and the immersion.

True, though in the Salamander example I don't think the weird reactions would be warranted. One thing is immersion and accepting the terms of the game world - another thing is overly restrictive stereotyping. Making a hello kitty marine army breaks immersion and is made for comedy rather than for being true to the game world. A Salamander bike army should neither break immersion nor feel untrue to the game world - of course there are Salamander bikers, and there is no reason why those there are, even if they are few, couldn't gather together as a force in order to undertake some special mission that requires high speed. It would simply be a highly specialised and unusual force, but perfectly themed nonetheless.

I really don't like it when people frown at interesting and appropriate ideas simply because they are different from what they are used to and therefore "feels wrong". Unusual can be a good and creative thing, and each case should be judged on its own merits.

This of course has nothing to do with codex hopping, but the idea that you shouldn't feel restricted to going with whatever playstyle is typical for a given codex/chapter/theme is valid I think.

AndrewGPaul
06-12-2011, 00:13
Vaktathi, you're thinking too small. Unless you're fielding half the Chapter in an Apocalypse game, even Chapters like the Salamanders can rustle up enough bikes and speeders to fill all the relevant FOC slots. They're a Codex Chapter, after all, and are expected to fulfil any battlefield role required of them. It may not conform to the usual style of army, but that's no excuse for misinformed criticism.

Vaktathi
06-12-2011, 00:26
Vaktathi, you're thinking too small. Unless you're fielding half the Chapter in an Apocalypse game, even Chapters like the Salamanders can rustle up enough bikes and speeders to fill all the relevant FOC slots. They're a Codex Chapter, after all, and are expected to fulfil any battlefield role required of them. It may not conform to the usual style of army, but that's no excuse for misinformed criticism.
I'm not going around and saying "no you can't do that", however I'm explaining that it will get weird remarks if they run a humongous number of bikes and speeders as a result of such a force not fitting the usual theme of the army (IIRC they aren't full strength and operate with fewer numbers than most chapters with only 7 companies, and have small numbers of bikes attached to some companies and do not have the full 8th company that can be mounted on bikes as most Chapters do), just as my IW's would if they had a bunch of Lash sorcerors, Spawn, khorne berzerkers, bikers and raptors.

Not trying to be a jerk about it or tell anyone they can't do anything, only the likely outcome of a particular course of action and the fluff nutters reasoning. Most people won't care, fewer still will usually say anything, but if it's something one is really concerned about, there's the reasoning.

Okuto
06-12-2011, 01:12
IMO the easiest way to solve this is make a homebrew chapter.....that way you can jump codex to codex with little issue or leave a opening for a possible complaint....

Just makes things easier.....personally I don't like seeing things like ultramarines playing as space puppies....feels like a cop out to me. Thus I have three different marine armies....

-A White scars bike list

-A Imperial Fists Vallina

-A Blood raven army which turned into a crusade army for my codex jumping needs.....cause I admit who doesn't want to give those fancy new dexes a go at least once, I get no complaints as I actually have representations of space wolves(one of my tactical squads are grey hunters), Blood angels(one assualt squad and sang. guard I use as vanguard), black templars(chaplain and one tactical squad), dark angels(one termi squad) and ravenguard(assualt marines), Salamanders(meltagunners), and iron hands(tech mainres) should any of them get a book.....

So imo the crusade style army solves everything and allows you to jump dex when it suits you....and it's fun to paint and looks nice....so colorful....I just need some purple marines.....can't do soul drinkers though as that wouldn't make sense and I don't know enough about hawk lords to cover them

baphomael
06-12-2011, 02:06
Nothing is preventing you from doing so, but it doesn't really jive with the fluff if you're playing a biker army as Salamanders, just as me playing my Iron Warriors as Doa Blood Angels jump-infantry spam, or Grey Knights, or with nothing but Spawn, Possessed and Khorne Berzerkers wouldn't really fit either, so expect to get weird looks/comments, it's just the way things are.

Many of these forces are built around very specific themes and builds, deviating highly from that tends to, of course, get weird reactions from people because you've broken the preconceptions and the immersion.


Question is, if one wanted a bike heavy army, why choose to paint them as Salamanders in the first place?

TheMav80
06-12-2011, 02:09
Question is, if one wanted a bike heavy army, why choose to paint them as Salamanders in the first place?

Because they like the color scheme?
Because the like the chapter?
Because they already own 5000 points of space marines and some of that is bikes?
Because...they wanted to and that is good enough?

Techpriest
06-12-2011, 02:12
All of the Above is true and the reasons why I did it. That and the fact I did not want to make a White Scars army and paint everything White.

Okuto
06-12-2011, 02:22
Or have a crisis when it comes to dreads......

Rofleupagus
06-12-2011, 04:34
I really hate how often this topic comes up. I guess credit has to go to GW for making (creating makes it sound more original than it actually is) a universe people care so deeply about that they will argue with people who for all intents and purposes could be a hypothetical situation on an exam about what colour they paint their toy soldiers.

:yes:

Am I the only one that plays 100% for fun? Do I bring a competitive list? No. Do I bring a fluffy list? No. You pay an outlandish amount of money for toy soldiers, build your army however you want. If someone gives you crap for a blue Blood Angels army tell him to buy you new minis so you can spruce up the paint job.

Escaflowne_Z
06-12-2011, 05:00
As for Salamanders with bikes, I know when they were introduced, they could have bike squads, and I recall that almost all of the Salamanders were initiative 3. I do not remember if they could have speeders. Perhaps bikes and speeders had a 0-1 restriction, I do not remember.

boogaloo
06-12-2011, 14:01
I don't know if it's just me and the fact that I am certainly not a tournament player (though not entirely without a competetive nature), but I could really care less, what colour or codex you use. I have refused to lpay games against certain lists, with certain builds (I refused a game against Tau with my wraithwall as it just wouldn't have been fun) but I always try the match up at least once. If it's really just that onesided I wouldn't do it again. In the particular match up mentioned I got tabled at the beginning of turn three. High toughness units are just tau's specialty. So yeah, even if you were codex hopping I wouldn't have a problem with it as long as you were a fun opponent to play against. Also I would appreciate it if you gave me a heads up on the approximate "tier" of the army, that way I can respond accordingly and have a close fun game.

It would however bother me if you kitted out your meltaguns to look like plasma just because it looks nicer. I would NOT mind if you got guns from a completely sparate company and put them on the models. I just think it's too misleading. We all know what a plasma gun looks like, we all know what a Lascannon looks like, and even if you tell me before hand I will revert to my basic senses and get confused. But if it's a "venom blaster" from some other game... Well I just have no clue what that is.. you say it's a melta gun? Cool!.

DEADMARSH
06-12-2011, 14:24
As others have mentioned, most folks probably won't care, OP. I'm not going to re-tread what's already been said, but here's my one additional point on the topic:

Do you know how to play?

If you want to use 3 different codexes for the same army, I'm totally fine with that assuming you know the rules to an acceptable degree for each army. If I spend half the game watching you read your rulebook because you've never played your army as Grey Knights or whatever, then it sucks for me.

So there ya go- my take on it anyway. If you have a firm grasp on how the rules work for the multiple codexes and keep WYSIWYG to a relative standard, I'm totally cool with it. If not, I'd rather you didn't.

Col. Tartleton
06-12-2011, 17:38
I don't know why people get upset about this stuff.

I could write a Space Marine list using the Tyranid Codex and I could make it more accurate to fluff than the Space Marine Codex. (True Story...:angel:) It would be totally balanced because its a legal list too. Though I'd be playing to my disadvantage because accepts that the Nids book is pretty weak.

I could write a Tyrannid list using the Necron codex too. Or Eldar with Dark Eldar.

It's just a game.

Scorpion0x17
06-12-2011, 18:27
It's just a game.

How DARE you say "it's just a game"!?!

/fanboy

;) :P

Llew
06-12-2011, 18:40
It's always puzzling to me with really dogmatic players. Some people love the fluff. I get that. Some people couldn't be bothered to read it, but might like to play with toy soldiers and like the look of the miniatures. I admire GW's ability to get some people to whole-heartedly latch onto their way of doing things and to rigorously fight against any heretical beliefs.

As long as it's relatively easy to tell what your army is, how it's equipped and so forth, I really can't see why any person with a reasonable sense of balance would object. I'd say it's a pretty good litmus test though. If anyone gets too bent out of shape about it, they're probably not going to be a lot of fun to play.