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Frederick
03-12-2011, 15:39
With the release of the very tall (and quite ridiculous) mangler squig, my main concern is:
If I were to cut it in half and put each squig on a separate base, would I be ALLOWED to play in a tournament with the two models?

Lordy
03-12-2011, 15:53
You can see everything anyway, the only time I can see it being a problem is for claiming cover from shooting through a unit, in which case you're just gonna have to take no cover.

Split them.

Stephanavich
03-12-2011, 15:55
I would just give Mangler Squigs the "Large Target" rule. I mean, they're HUGE. They're taller than a Stegadon, and that's a Large Target, so...

But that's just me, and I don't play in tournaments so I don't know what they will do. I would wait and see before you do anything drastic.

Vampiric16
03-12-2011, 15:58
I'd argue that line of sight should be drawn to the height of the bottom squig/centre of the model. Here's my reasoning:
The model captures the two squigs at a moment in time. In this instance, one is bounding over the over. However, the model is constantly in motion, and the next instant the two could be side by side. This is represented by the hard to hit modifier. Only one thing can be relied on: that the squigs will hit the ground at some point. Thus it makes sense to use a grounded squig as a point for LOS. Taking the hoppers as an example, they're springing all over the place, but the model is static, and you use that as a LOS.
Hope that makes some sense, i'm a tad tired and have a headache (due in no small part to my bro playing pop music all day)

The bearded one
03-12-2011, 16:18
unless other players are exceptionally dense, it shouldn't really be an issue. There are few, quite specific, situations where it would really make a difference.

TMATK
03-12-2011, 16:29
Measure the official Mangler model, cut out a piece of card that height and keep it in your army case. If LOS or cover becomes an issue, you can pull it out to give an "official" ruling.

Snake1311
03-12-2011, 16:58
I'd argue that line of sight should be drawn to the height of the bottom squig/centre of the model. Here's my reasoning:
The model captures the two squigs at a moment in time. In this instance, one is bounding over the over. However, the model is constantly in motion, and the next instant the two could be side by side. This is represented by the hard to hit modifier. Only one thing can be relied on: that the squigs will hit the ground at some point. Thus it makes sense to use a grounded squig as a point for LOS. Taking the hoppers as an example, they're springing all over the place, but the model is static, and you use that as a LOS.
Hope that makes some sense, i'm a tad tired and have a headache (due in no small part to my bro playing pop music all day)

Lol, this doesnt work like that. From a 'real -life' perspective, people would wait until they jump up and shoot them in the air (which is what gives them their basic soft cover). From a game perspective, all dragons are in 'a moment in time', so by your logic you shuold be able to model them crawling on the ground.

Jind_Singh
03-12-2011, 17:02
If someone wants to cut up their model to repose them go for it - I will be! I don't want to have to Squig models looking the same.

What I don't understand is why they (GW) had to make them so freaking HUGE! Surely they went a tad overboard with the size? Could it not have been reduced in size - bigger than the current giant cave squig but not as big as they are now! Each one is a match for a Dragon in size almost - it's silly to be honesT!

Lorcryst
03-12-2011, 17:22
Not really sure about the tournament scene TBH ... I know that some Tournament Organizers are ultimately anal-retentive, but the majority are still players out therer to have a good time, so it should be okay ...

Personnaly I like them, and since I usually deploy two of those in front of my battleline, the added height is even a bonus : TLoS blocked to my blocks of infantry :p

popisdead
07-12-2011, 16:18
You already get a free cover save.

Lorcryst
07-12-2011, 17:20
You already get a free cover save.

The Manglers themselves do, indeed, but they can also provide cover for other units ?

Jind_Singh
07-12-2011, 18:39
Of course - true line of sight - and these guys are huge!

Also NO ONE should have an issue with you placing the dudes how you want!

tanglethorn
07-12-2011, 18:43
The Manglers themselves do, indeed, but they can also provide cover for other units ?

This is a good question. Will they block LOS to anything hiding behind them?

Jind_Singh
07-12-2011, 22:25
Lol, of course they do! At the very least they will obsure the unit behind them, thus that unit has a -2 to hit for hard cover.

The model is quite bulky so it'll for sure hide units behind it.

True line of sight - just because they move randomnly and are loony squigs they still get in the way!

Spiney Norman
08-12-2011, 07:35
If someone wants to cut up their model to repose them go for it - I will be! I don't want to have to Squig models looking the same.

What I don't understand is why they (GW) had to make them so freaking HUGE! Surely they went a tad overboard with the size? Could it not have been reduced in size - bigger than the current giant cave squig but not as big as they are now! Each one is a match for a Dragon in size almost - it's silly to be honesT!

You know what, I think we should all buy the mangler, cut the squigs and each convert our own "Dragon-Squig" and spam the GW flickr pool with the pics in an attempt to get it adopted as a mount for an NG warboss in the next army book. :D

Urgat
08-12-2011, 09:42
Ah, I'd rather common goblins had a monstrous mount at last, enough with the night goblin love :p

Engekomkommer
08-12-2011, 09:44
Well isn't it a grape shot of squigs? I'd split them, then put a normal size squig on a chain upto the curreny models height. Win win.

Wesser
08-12-2011, 10:52
True Line of ****?

My gaming group and even our local vendor arranging games have given up on this **** rule.

Only facing and the presence of big buildings or mountains obstructs LOS.

Per the rules no units, forests etc. blocks as you can clearly see through 18 elbows, 15 bodies and 20 trees with little trouble.

Ignoring LOS is the only solution that'll keep you sane.

Killing the developer responsible is the only thing that'll satisfy you

Lorcryst
08-12-2011, 10:56
Ah, I'd rather common goblins had a monstrous mount at last, enough with the night goblin love :p

Errr, Gigantic Spiders and Aracknarok for Shamans ?

theunwantedbeing
08-12-2011, 10:58
Shorten them and you are modelling for advantage.
Split them up are you are being cheap.

Really who cares?
At a tournament, it is undoubtedly going to be legal to abuse to the TLoS rules so you may as well if you want to place highly.
In friendly games just ask your opponent about whether you want to consider them their full height or not.

xxRavenxx
08-12-2011, 11:06
At a tournament, it is undoubtedly going to be legal to abuse to the TLoS rules so you may as well if you want to place highly.

If this were the case, people would be sticking 2 normal squigs to a base to make their manglers...

Morax
08-12-2011, 12:23
Easy fix.

1-Measure the height of the models togeather.
2-Cut them apart
3-Use basing materials like large rocks and shrubs to get back to the "official" height the model should be at.
4-If you are having trouble explaining why there is only one "squig" (these things are too huge to really be called squigs in my eyes, hence the quotes) on the base then throw a squig hopper on the base with it at the end of some jewlery chain.

Easy way to save some cash and keep with TLOS. Insulation foam works well as rocks with a good hobby knife. Just be careful working with the stuff as breathing in the fibers can be hazardous.

Scalebug
08-12-2011, 15:49
Measure the official Mangler model, cut out a piece of card that height and keep it in your army case. If LOS or cover becomes an issue, you can pull it out to give an "official" ruling.

+1 on this one.

90% of the time it's not going to matter anyway, terrain is likely to be either so large you would not have seen an "officially" sized Mangler anyway, or small enough that you would see this "halved" conversion behind it. It would be fairly exeptional to encounter a terrain piece that happened to be the perfect size to hide one behind (unless you are that guy that deliberately designs your terrain for this... :shifty:)

Modelling for advantage has been a mostly theoretical debate ever since TLOS was first put in black-and-white in the rules (a few ed's ago in 40K first, IIRC, the whole "Crouching Wraithlords" issues), I have yet to see it make a difference on the actual gaming table... YMMV of course.

Urgat
08-12-2011, 16:05
Wouldn't a simple house hide a single mangler, but not both?

Scalebug
08-12-2011, 16:21
Sure, but I'm thinking here most people will want at least two stories to their houses, either because they built them before 8th ed and wanted them to cover reasonably large models (even with a non-TLOS rulesset in mind), or they built them now and want them not to totally cripple a ranged unit by only letting 5 models shoot out. Store-bought kits (GW or others) are more often than not at least two stories as well.

What I envisioned was something like a simple shed or such, could well hide a "one" but not a "two" squig mangler.

But again, YMMV.

The Low King
08-12-2011, 17:27
Look at it like this:

Do you mind if i put my cannons on stilts? Or my organ guns on a slight rise? or maybe make the cossbar on my grudge throwers higher?

How about me converting my gyrocopter so its on the ground? (ie, can hide behind walls)

Sure, for aesthetic purposes its fine but i feel that should the issue ever come up you should play normal height...

On the other hand, when will it actually come up? if the single model would be hidden by a building then the double model is going to be over 50% coveres. That means most things will be hitting it on 6s or 7s and cannons will just hit the building anyway.

de Selby
08-12-2011, 17:36
Easy fix.

1-Measure the height of the models togeather.
2-Cut them apart
3-Use basing materials like large rocks and shrubs to get back to the "official" height the model should be at.
4-If you are having trouble explaining why there is only one "squig" (these things are too huge to really be called squigs in my eyes, hence the quotes) on the base then throw a squig hopper on the base with it at the end of some jewlery chain.

Easy way to save some cash and keep with TLOS. Insulation foam works well as rocks with a good hobby knife. Just be careful working with the stuff as breathing in the fibers can be hazardous.

I was going to suggest something like this. It's a good chance to do something unusual with the basing and no-one could complain. Mangled enemies (or friends) could also make a good base.

cool-kid-on-the-block
10-12-2011, 00:26
i dont understand the overboardness of the model at all. its like 65pts. i wouldnt want to have 2-4 65pts models in my army that cost 36 each that could have been 15 instead. of course people who dont have money to burn are going to split them, then get called cheap by people who dont play OnG even if they are based to the right hight or modeling for advantage in tournaments if they dont have massive rocks or trees on the bases.

it was a bit silly imho

H33D
10-12-2011, 01:30
Errr, Gigantic Spiders and Aracknarok for Shamans ?

Those are technically forest Goblins. I think he meant for the common goblins such as the ones on foot who can take spears, shields, and bows. I think wolf riders are common goblins since spider riders are 'forest goblins spider riders'. A Dire Wolf mount would be sweeeeeeet...

Urgat
10-12-2011, 07:29
Though It's true I forgot the gigantic spider (arach I left aside because who counts shaman mounts, honestly :eyebrows: ), yeah, I meant common goblin mount as in, well, common goblin mount, not forest goblin mount.

Spiney Norman
10-12-2011, 07:42
Ah, I'd rather common goblins had a monstrous mount at last, enough with the night goblin love :p

Honestly, I'll be happy for some common goblin love when they produce some r&f common goblin models that don't utterly suck balls and rules that aren't the inbred bastard cousin of their hooded mates. A cockatrice mount for a common goblin warboss would be awesome, and would give people who don't play storm of magic (so... nearly everyone???) a reason to buy the gorgeous cockatrice model.

I love the sneaker models, but the only way to convert even vaguely acceptable commons is by modifying OK Gnoblars, and when nighties are so much better value for pts (and I have hundreds of them courtesy of Skull pass anyway) I don't really have any incentive to do that.

I'm still going to convert my own mangler using more sensible sized models. I've not had much use for Skarsnik recently so I'm in the process of separating him from Gobbla and combining with the Great Cave squig model. And seriously, if anyone whines at me over TLoS they can eat x pounds of metal.

Urgat
10-12-2011, 08:03
I love the sneaker models, but the only way to convert even vaguely acceptable commons is by modifying OK Gnoblars,

I use Blood Bowl star players for sneaky players, not only do they look cool and fit the bill, but they also manage to make me accept the rules as at least somewhat fathomable. Loony gobs with crazy weapons fit my taste better than ninja goblins.