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RunepriestRidcully
03-12-2011, 22:12
Basically why is the plasma pistol the same price as a plasma gun, which has twice the range? would 10 or 5pts be a better price? For such a cool weapon (both looks and fluff) why the heck is it that it has been given such a high pts cost to limit it's use?

Jericho
03-12-2011, 22:21
Having a weapon that isn't rapid fire is nice (shoot-charge)... but generally I would have to agree that they're a little over priced for what they do. The simple fact remains that if they were worth it, people would actually take them :p

shadekiller
03-12-2011, 22:24
Part of the awser is beacause plasma pistol have the pistol rule, so you can fire them and charge ans also use them as a secondary close combat weapon compared to plasma gun wich get a longer range but is rapid fire with all it's drawback. so they are not as bad as you think but their cost is indeed quite high. Compared to a combi-plasma in C:SM it's not a terrible option but it's not really popular as a lot of people tend to keep their squad light on wargear. Another thing is that in the vanilla dex the plasma pistol is costly compared to the plasma gun because the gun replace a flamer and the plasma pistol a simple bolt pistol. The is also some costing issue but it think it's not THAT bad of an option for what you get.

Lord Damocles
03-12-2011, 22:39
Plasma is awesome because it pops Marines and light vehicles.

Plasma Pistols give you that, plus a close combat weapon, plus the ability to assault after firing, plus a Plasma weapon which doesn't run out which is generally in adition to other Plasma options a squad has (or is at high BS).

They might be a little dubious for fragile models like Guard who are likely to get cooked by an overheat; but then they're giving the squishy Guardsman who is armed with a basic weapon on the next rung up from harsh language the ability to cap Marines left right and centre.

blackcherry
03-12-2011, 22:59
Its mainly for the additional mobility and +1A it gives you with a ccw in combat. Though plasma costs so much more than it used to. For good reason! A marine couldn't walk 10 steps before being gunned down by cheap spammable plasma fire.

In fact the increase in price of plasma probably has some link to the rise in use of terminators. Beforehand they were just an easier way of your squad claiming their points back.

xxRavenxx
04-12-2011, 00:02
I get the feeling its to discourage their use a little.

If you *really* want some more high power shots in your army, you have the option, but its not coming cheap.

Aluinn
04-12-2011, 00:44
I think it's that they're generally available on characters, which benefit more from the additional attack than other models as they're likely to also have at least a power weapon, and possibly something even better. They also tend to have a high BS, which makes shooting weapons more effective on them (cf cost of psycannons on GK characters being really high). However, it's also true that sometimes characters won't gain an additional attack from a pistol (since they may have, for example, a power fist) and sometimes don't have higher BS than the rank-and-file models in their army, and also that plasma pistols are often 15 points even for rank-and-file models (though at least in these cases they almost always have ccws and thus do gain or retain their extra attack).

The one constant is that they're generally only offered on units/models that want to be in combat (characters, Assault Marines, Berserkers, etc.) and, with these units, they may well be better than a plasma gun since you can actually fire them before charging in.

But GW points costs for ranged weapons are odd in that sometimes they are adjusted for BS as in the GK example above, or even for the possibility of having tons of upgraded weapons in a unit (as with Devastators), but at other times their costs remain constant throughout an army list as is the case with plasma pistols, or with IG Veterans getting weapon upgrades at the same cost as Infantry Squads in spite of both having higher BS and being able to take quite a lot of upgraded weapons. GW should be more consistent about this, IMO.

KingDeath
04-12-2011, 00:59
I get the feeling its to discourage their use a little.

If you *really* want some more high power shots in your army, you have the option, but its not coming cheap.

Well, atm they are so expensive that taking one is effectively shooting yourself in the knee.

Vaktathi
04-12-2011, 01:11
Its mainly for the additional mobility and +1A it gives you with a ccw in combat. Though plasma costs so much more than it used to. For good reason! A marine couldn't walk 10 steps before being gunned down by cheap spammable plasma fire.

In fact the increase in price of plasma probably has some link to the rise in use of terminators. Beforehand they were just an easier way of your squad claiming their points back.3++sv's probably had a little to do with it. :p

Honestly, Plasma in general is rarely seen these days except cannons. In 3E/4E it was extremely useful as anything that wasn't AV14 could be killed by plasma weapons in addition to being very useful against heavy infantry, now it's only AV12 and lower and it isn't spectacular in that role anymore and the ubiquitousness of cover saves has made the AP2 much less useful. Couple this with the increased need for melta weapons to counter vehicles and the increase in flamers usefulness, on top of the outdated Gets Hot! penalty, and plasma is practically extinct.

So we have a situation where basically:


AP2 is less useful due to more cover saves

It's less effective against vehicles than it used to be

Other weapons are more effective than they used to be so the Plasma's usefulness has decreased

It costs more than other special weapons

It can kill your models



So you practically never see plasma guns.

Plasma pistols on top of this get only 1 shot, yeah they can be used in CC but that's a secondary concern, they're half as effective as plasma guns without the extended range for stationary fire and just as expensive.

The 15pt cost for PG's arose from the tail end of 4E where Plasma Weapons were about all you ever saw because they were frighteningly effective against everything that wasn't AV14 and were cheaper, but even then nobody really understood the 15pt cost of Pistols. With 5E and all its changes, 15pts on top of Gets Hot! means you never see PG's and PP's might as well not even be an option for most players aside from cool factor.

pcx64
04-12-2011, 01:16
Just a question...

Is it really worth equiping a troop unit with a plasma pistol / rifle? Overheating causes wound that can remove the firing troop vs the damage effect on opponent troop. It's like I stab you but I get the drawback of being stabbed simultaneously.

Vaktathi
04-12-2011, 02:34
Just a question...

Is it really worth equiping a troop unit with a plasma pistol / rifle? Overheating causes wound that can remove the firing troop vs the damage effect on opponent troop. It's like I stab you but I get the drawback of being stabbed simultaneously.

Short answer: Usually not

Long Answer: depends on what you want them to do. If you want them to task them with engaging heavy infantry/MC's, then sure. But meltas can help with that too (albeit not as effectively) while being much more potent against tanks for fewer points. Engaging heavy infantry/MC's is also usually the job of Elites/Heavy Support, so for Troops FoC slot units you're better off with transport poppers (meltas) and flamer weapons in most situations.

decker_cky
04-12-2011, 04:32
Didn't the current plasma pistol pricing start when it was still possible to double tap with pistols if you stood still?

Sexiest_hero
04-12-2011, 04:56
Yes, that''s when it started. Also You're old and so am I to remember that.

ehlijen
04-12-2011, 05:13
All plasma costs a lot because it is very good at killing expensive models regardless of their protective gear and stats. It's not just termies and MCs, the regular marine might as well be a grot as far as a plasma pistol is concerned.

Note also that the plasma pistol only costs as much as the gun on a marine, who gives up a lot of CC potential with the gun but retains all of it with the pistol. On a guard sergeant, who is nowhere near as interested in CC as a marine sergeant, the plasma pistol costs less than a plasma gun which has still almost the same shooting potential (and since it upgrades from a worse basic gun the same cost is justified despite the lower BS value and save vs overheat).

Starchild
04-12-2011, 06:16
Hmmm, 15 points for a plasma pistol. Personally I'd rather take another tactical space marine. :chrome:

This may be why there's so many plasma pistols in me bitz box. It's a shame really.

Death Whisper
04-12-2011, 06:32
Didn't the current plasma pistol pricing start when it was still possible to double tap with pistols if you stood still?

Yeah, I miss 3rd edition Cypher. Just twin-linking the shots on dual pistols seems to be the norm now.

Pyriel
04-12-2011, 08:41
Hmmm, 15 points for a plasma pistol. Personally I'd rather take another tactical space marine. :chrome:

This may be why there's so many plasma pistols in me bitz box. It's a shame really.

um... NO. the plasma pistol is tons better than a tactical marine. the plasma pistol kills a marine(=average 40k soldier) with a shot. in fact, it kills 0,55 marines per shot. a tactical marine? if rapidfiring, kills 0,22 marines per shot.

in competitive gaming , MEQ is all you'll realy gonna fight (when fighting orks, it is the killa kanz etc that'll concern you; when fighting IG, its the tanks, etc; so, infantry-wise, only Marines is what you care about). this means that the plasmapistol is exactly 250% better than a tactical marine for killing infantry. and, of course, it can kill some light vehicles too, where the tactical marine is useless. that's important too.

the only reason people dont use plasma pistols is, a combimelta/combiflamer is better.(both than a pistol and a tactical marine)
typical troops choice:
option #1: 10-man, flamer, multimelta, combi-weapon, rhino (meltabunker)
option #2: 5-man, combi-weapon, razorback with las/plas. (for a razorspam list)
both these setups utilise combiweapons. they *could* utilise plasma pistols... only combi-weapons do the same job cheaper.

ashc
04-12-2011, 09:29
I don't care if they can one-shot light vehicles, 2+ saves, and give +1A in close combat, at 15pts. a pop to *possibly* do two of those things before charging whilst also having a chance of wounding the model its on, the plasmapistol on the battlefield is practically extinct.

Pyriel
04-12-2011, 09:43
...hmpf. killing marines and taking down light vehicles is the ONLY thing an army should focus on, tourney statistics say. its not something you dont care about. and its not the chance to kill its own model-the chance is 1/18. LOL.

there was a time the plasma pistol was used. then it got more expensive. then combi-weapons became cheaper. the only difference is, ppl want these extra 5 points per squad to help buy some more transports/landspeeders.

ehlijen
04-12-2011, 10:28
um... NO. the plasma pistol is tons better than a tactical marine. the plasma pistol kills a marine(=average 40k soldier) with a shot. in fact, it kills 0,55 marines per shot. a tactical marine? if rapidfiring, kills 0,22 marines per shot.

in competitive gaming , MEQ is all you'll realy gonna fight (when fighting orks, it is the killa kanz etc that'll concern you; when fighting IG, its the tanks, etc; so, infantry-wise, only Marines is what you care about). this means that the plasmapistol is exactly 250% better than a tactical marine for killing infantry. and, of course, it can kill some light vehicles too, where the tactical marine is useless. that's important too.



If all you care about is killing, sure. But you also have to consider survival to hold objectives and not yield killpoints. If you bring an extra marine which takes the plasma pistol 2 turns to kill (in the open) but only let him get one shot (then you charge) you've used your points more effectively than your plasma pistol wielding opponet.

And what if your enemy does not bring meqs? Such as a guard blob or a gaunt horde or a boy mob? The extra marine is better.

Plasma pistols are not bad, but not a no brainer either.

sigur
04-12-2011, 10:41
Yeah, so plasma pistols aren't really the best deal and I can't really remember them ever be to be honest. Plasmaguns of course are very nice to have. Me, I haven't used pasma pistols in many, many years. I think I had one on my Canoness once in a smaller points game, couldn't really afford the inferno pistol and didn't expect too many heavy vehicles anyway. But that's a BS6 model that's also pretty tough and mobile. For IG I don't see much of a point in that.


@RunepriestRidcully: Just a thing on the side: If you opt to go for this format of thread titling you really, really should put a hyphen after the first word, otherwise the thing looks almost comical as a sentence.






Yes, that''s when it started. Also You're old and so am I to remember that.

Wasn't that rule in effect until the end of 3rd edition or even still in 4th edition?:eyebrows:

brightblade
04-12-2011, 12:31
Well, atm they are so expensive that taking one is effectively shooting yourself in the knee.

I thought the rule was 'Get's Hot' :p

I think they are expensive to avoid spamming and because, actually, they are pretty good. Different advantages to pg's. It is all about tools, jobs and situations.

Chaos lord with daemon weapon and plasma pistol shoots one termie dead then assaults the other four chopping them up good and proper. :D

Mind you. Rolls a one. Takes wound. Charges. Rolls a one. Takes a wound. Pounded by fists. Oh, fickle chaos gods. :cries: Fun for all :D

Sir_Turalyon
04-12-2011, 14:04
On the paper, plasma pistols are melta guns that trade points of str, ap and melta rule for an extra close combat attack, and are not worth the points in comparison.

Not on the paper , plasma pistols is almost never a replacement for special weapon. They are an extra weapon that you can take on top of squad's special weapon allowance to spam extra firepower, or give to units that have no special weapons. If you want your squad to have a meltagun or plasmagun, you buy them that meltagun or plasmagun. If you want your squad to have a meltagun and then some, you can do it with that plasma pistol on seregant but you pay extra points for spamming. If you want your Berzerkers - who normally have no special weapons at all - to pack some high str, ap assault shots, you can do it with plasma pistol but you pay the points for giving the unit new ability. If you want your BS 5 character - not intended as firepower unit - to pack some high str, ap shots... you get the idea. Plasma pistols are not part of units standard loadout; they are literally the last weapon you want to take, an extra option to bring squads' firepower literally over the top, and priced accordingly.

IcedAnimals
05-12-2011, 06:59
plasma has the current price because it was spammed like crazy before and GW wanted all the people with plasma weapons to have to go out and replace them. A simple price increase made plasma still a good choice but not the no brainer it was before that melta has basically become. So now most people instead of plasma pistols will grab combi melta.

MajorWesJanson
05-12-2011, 07:42
Personally, I'd like to see Plasma pistols drop to 10 points from 15, power fists to 20 from 25, and devastator plasma cannons and lascannons to drop from 35 to 25. All of those prices seem a tad high to me.

Shamana
05-12-2011, 09:02
...and devastator plasma cannons and lascannons to drop from 35 to 25.

Blood Angels get that, and actually more - their devastator lascannons are 25 points, and the plasma cannons are actually 15; other heavy weapons are 10 points instead of 15.

I imagine it was either intended as a stealth fix, or Mr. Ward decided that having Red Thirst was bad enough that they needed a serious discount on the big guns.

Bartali
05-12-2011, 12:15
I imagine it was either intended as a stealth fix, or Mr. Ward decided that having Red Thirst was bad enough that they needed a serious discount on the big guns.

Eh ? Red Thirst is a benefit for BA Devs, I'll take Fearless over ATSKNF for ranged board edge hugging shooting squads any day of the week.

Ozorik
05-12-2011, 12:48
You may need to retune your sarcasm detector.

Havock
05-12-2011, 13:29
Leftover from the transition from 4th to 5th, when GW decided that plasma was too good.

ashc
05-12-2011, 15:36
also see the poor old Starcannon :p

TheMav80
06-12-2011, 02:19
You may need to retune your sarcasm detector.

Sarcasm detector? Yeah, that's real useful.

:D

Shamana
07-12-2011, 20:10
You may need to retune your sarcasm detector.

Actually, he was right, I thought Red Thirst gave something that might force movement towards an enemy, turns out it didn't. So yeah, Blood Angels devastators are what the SM devs wish they could have been.

... and I don't think I've ever seen a BA army use devastators.

ehlijen
08-12-2011, 00:58
... and I don't think I've ever seen a BA army use devastators.

That's for two reasons:
1) It doesn't fit with what most people want from BA: a fast moving CC army.
2) Red armour and blue helmets doesn't look anywhere near as good as the other way round.

Their effectiveness has little to do with the lack ot tabletop existance.

RandomThoughts
08-12-2011, 09:54
... and I don't think I've ever seen a BA army use devastators.

Friend of mine uses a squad or two in most of his games.


2) Red armour and blue helmets doesn't look anywhere near as good as the other way round.

He actually ignores the helmet colors for his army. The only color distinction is between regular marines (black shoulder trimmings, chest ornaments, etc.) and veterans / veteran sergeants / everything with veteran status (gold trimmings)

Kevlar
08-12-2011, 11:00
Plasma wrecks Meq and termies, and GW doesn't want their poster models wrecked too easily. I think 15 is fair considering the power it gives to remove expensive models, put wounds on MC, and has a decent chance to pop light armor.

Major_Manny
08-12-2011, 11:18
It makes me laugh to see people making sweeping comments such as "plasmaguns are now extinct", i personally like to give a couple of vet squads 3 plasmaguns each every now and then.

They manage to keep MC and termies honest. True, they love to fry themselves, but that doesn't always happen, and when they work, they can work very well.

Fixer
08-12-2011, 11:37
The pricing on the Plasma Pistol is currently bizarre and has been since the new Chaos Codex came out.

Back then they decided that everyone should pay the same as a Character, 15 points each.
This was most notably stupid on the Raptor where you got a meltagun for 5 points less.
The meltagun being effectively better in all regards, strength, AP, no overheat, +D6 peneteration. You didn't even lose an attack for having one because it didn't replace a BP or CCW.

You could of course double tap with pistols in 4th, but that required you to be stationary and that wasn't going to happen with an assault unit.

Of course this bizarre 'plasma pistol = 15 points regardless of it's actual value' trend followed through into the Dark Angels book, Codex Space marines and everything after it. Why? Who knows.

On a character you could argue the value of it. On a sergeant where you risk the unit leader by firing it, or on an assault marine where better cheaper options are available, even in the case of blood angels where you lose a single attack by taking the meltagun. Not worth it, which is a shame because I like painting up the things.

Most likely reason: GW knows that when you've made a stupid mistake it's better to compound and continue that mistake over and over again rather than to fix it.

Vaktathi
08-12-2011, 14:02
The pricing on the Plasma Pistol is currently bizarre and has been since the new Chaos Codex came out.

Of course this bizarre 'plasma pistol = 15 points regardless of it's actual value' trend followed through into the Dark Angels book, Codex Space marines and everything after it. Why? Who knows.
Small pedantic point, C: DA was the originator, C:CSM came out 5/6 months later :p

Chapters Unwritten
08-12-2011, 17:33
Next edition, models with plasma pistols will also be strength 7 in close combat (presumably).

This makes a lot of sense with the unusually consistent pricing. It will always make the bearer strength 7 in combats if they choose to use it, regardless if they are a marine or a guardsman.

This makes a lot of sense in other areas as well, such as Triarch Praetorians and their Strength 6 pistols justifying their as-of-now weird cost.

althathir
08-12-2011, 18:55
Actually, he was right, I thought Red Thirst gave something that might force movement towards an enemy, turns out it didn't. So yeah, Blood Angels devastators are what the SM devs wish they could have been.

... and I don't think I've ever seen a BA army use devastators.

BA don't use devs for alot reasons in addition to the ones ehlijen listed.

1) fast preds in two slots leads to people spamming av 13
2) regular dreads in heavy support (droppod lists)
3) speed of the army makes long range support less important
4) static firing units aren't nearly as useful as they used to be. Long fangs and Imp guard heavy weapon teams are really the only two considered good choices competetively iirc (there may be some obscure unit I'm overlooking). Between cover, outflanking, and usefulness of vehicles (tank shock) there is a really fine line where these units are considered useful.

When you compare BA Devatators to Long Fangs its actually pretty close.

Long fangs - can split fire, are cheaper with ML, counterattack, and can add a 5th heavy.

BA - sarge can up one guys BS, are cheaper with plasma cannons, red thirst, can add ablative wounds either by adding additional guys or by not upgrading some of the four.

Its important to note that the most popular setup all ML does favor LF by 15 points, and probably another 10 for split fire (It should cost 15, but I think the BA BS bonus is worth 5).

Which is still close enough that they should be seen considering how broken long fangs are considered, but I think it goes back to the fast preds.


Next edition, models with plasma pistols will also be strength 7 in close combat (presumably).

This makes a lot of sense with the unusually consistent pricing. It will always make the bearer strength 7 in combats if they choose to use it, regardless if they are a marine or a guardsman.

This makes a lot of sense in other areas as well, such as Triarch Praetorians and their Strength 6 pistols justifying their as-of-now weird cost.

Sixth is still a long ways off, but it is a possiblity. I think part of why pistols are priced so high is they aren't considered a standard upgrade (flamer, meltagun, and plasma gun for most marine units).

xxRavenxx
08-12-2011, 20:40
Personally, I'd like to see ....power fists to [drop from] 20 from 25

I disagree with this entirely. Powerfists show up everywhere at 25 points, with no other options getting a look in in units. I bet they could go to 30 and still be the CCW of choice.

Similarly, I still imagine that the points premium on weapons is to stop people resorting to min-max spaming of them. I almost imagine seeing melta guns creeping up 5-10 points for the next editon too. But I doubt it will ever happen.

Gorbad Ironclaw
08-12-2011, 22:37
I disagree with this entirely. Powerfists show up everywhere at 25 points, with no other options getting a look in in units. I bet they could go to 30 and still be the CCW of choice.

I think that's more to due with the fact that the Powerfist/Klaw is the only weapon that actually offers something really new to the squad. A power weapon makes you a bit more effective against targets you can already engage. A powerfist lets you deal with a whole new range of targets.

ehlijen
09-12-2011, 01:59
I think that's more to due with the fact that the Powerfist/Klaw is the only weapon that actually offers something really new to the squad. A power weapon makes you a bit more effective against targets you can already engage. A powerfist lets you deal with a whole new range of targets.

If that was the only concern, they take the much cheaper meltabombs.

I believe that the additional attack and unpenalised I value make power weapons valid competition to fists for tackling more numerous units.

Vaktathi
09-12-2011, 02:08
If that were true however, we'd see PP's more often. As is, I think the only unit I can recall seeing them on (that didn't come with it like Straken) in the last 3 years in an actual game is a couple instances on Khorne Berzerkers (who can get enough of them to at least realistically threaten a transport with routine success) and I think one time a Stormtrooper squad? They're a practically extinct piece of wargear. Meltabombs I see every once in a while, especially in smaller games.

Baaltor
09-12-2011, 03:11
Power weapons and plasma pistols are both quite overpriced. statistically speaking the powerfist is superior at killing infantry, AND is good at killing armour, where the power weapon is sometimes good at killing infantry. If I had it my way I'd price raise the strength of power weapons to 5 or decrease the cost to 10 and make plasma pistols count as a power sword in close combat.

Chapters Unwritten
09-12-2011, 14:12
I am hoping that power weapons get some kind of benefit at some point. Maybe the ability to parry or something, like the GK swords do.