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barnEbiss
04-12-2011, 05:55
Tyranids are drawn the the beacon that a large Genestealer infestation generates and when the hive fleet reaches a few light years of a planet will trigger the genestealer to go into open attack against the government to weaken the planet in advance of the swarms arrival.

But in other sources its stated before swarms arrive the Tyranids will allow some ships to escape the planet as they reach it to ensure that the genestealers with the inherent urge survive and not be adsorbed back into the swarm are able travel to other planets to prepare them for invasion.

Now my main question the patriarch of the genestealer has an almost fatherly love of his children under him and will protect them as much as he can protect the brood but is it possible that a hive fleet swarm that had triggered genestealer built in fleeing urge and open rebellion stage if that hive fleet got defeated before the patriarch was re-adsorbed into the hive fleet and fled the planet on a ship to a new planet with the last survivors of his cult would other fleets have less control over the patriarch once he set up a new cult on another planet as he developed more of a personality.

And could it be that brood lords are the final stage in the genestealers infestations that are triggerd to be born by hive fleet to ensure control over the genestealer and remove the patriarch if the brood resist the hive mind.


basically I want to know would be realistic to have a patriarch from a long ago filled invasion that had already fled one planet and after several other Tyranid invasions has finally developed enough mental power and stamina that he is able to resist the signal sent out by the hive and even has gone the the point of making efforts to shield the signal that is emitted by the brood that the hive mind detects and even has killed the brood lords in the cult that have been born to try and stop or at least delay the time the swarm is drawn to his planet..

am thinking about a special space hulk campaign of a blood angel team investigating an unusual Genestealer infestation that is lead by the very very old large Patriarch that ends with the patriarch fleeing with small number of his select few but when the blood angels destroy the strange genestealer machinery that was blocking the swarm from detecting the broods signal strength the marines have doomed the planet to the attention of the tyranids that will arrive in the near future and follow up missions would have the Inquisition sending an Inquisitor to investigate and track down this new genestealer cult and if it could be used to an advantage against the tyranids..

nedius
04-12-2011, 10:03
None of what you said smacks of 'highly unlikely'. It is unlikely, but then most of the stories surrounding 40k are the ones where something unlikely happens.

So, a patriarch who develops to be more independant from the hive mind would be unusual, but far from impossible. Look at the fluff for ymgarls - a tyranid being purposefully 'banished', or the Catachan devil - a creature of suposed tyranid origins now independant from the hive. Your fluff is no different from 'exceptions' such as these.

Necanthrope
04-12-2011, 11:55
That's a great idea about broodlords. Unifies the old cult background with the newer stuff very nicely.

Seems odd to me that a Patriarch would be able to resist the hive mind, but not impossible. Although the magus would probably willingly embrace it every time. It's quite a nice image of a cynical old patriarch who has fostered several cults over the centuries , but only really cares about his purestrain descendants.

BaronDG
04-12-2011, 12:14
It is even more interesting when you consider the daemonic possession of such a patriarch in the cult...

LonelyPath
04-12-2011, 12:49
It is even more interesting when you consider the daemonic possession of such a patriarch in the cult...

I miss those days :(

As for Broodlords (nice idea BTW), when the 4E Nids codex was released the designer notes stated that they were the new Patriarch and replaced it, as far as I'm aware, this has not changed.

stroller
04-12-2011, 12:49
Personally, I don't like the idea. But - if it works for you - go with it - and have fun. There's nothing in the fluff that I can think of that would rule it out - and - if it's cool for you - enjoy!

barnEbiss
04-12-2011, 18:26
Also I like the Idea at the end of the Campaign the marines destroy the strange genestealer power source only to find it blocking the link that a brood admits thus damming the planet to the attention of the Tyranid swarm that will not be drawn to the planet as the marines attemp distroy the remainder of the brood.

In my Tryanid codex it seemed to indicate that their are still Patriarchs but Brood lords take the for front in leading the genestealers in uprisings and leading the cult and ensure total hive control and loyalty to the hive mind.

So having a patriarch that has gone rogue after many many years and seeing his brood family distroyed time and time again by the humans and the hive overmind and developing ability to resist the hive minds control and now leads an independent rogue brood cut off and secrete more so then any other broods would allow for fielding a nice gen cult army or opponents in space hulk 3rd edtion

Chem-Dog
04-12-2011, 18:47
And could it be that brood lords are the final stage in the genestealers infestations that are triggerd to be born by hive fleet to ensure control over the genestealer and remove the patriarch if the brood resist the hive mind.

An interesting idea but since the advent of the Broodlord I've considered them to be the Patriarch, just a leaner-meaner version that hasn't been sitting in some hidden culvert on a world he's busy infesting.



basically I want to know would be realistic to have a patriarch from a long ago filled invasion that had already fled one planet and after several other Tyranid invasions has finally developed enough mental power and stamina that he is able to resist the signal sent out by the hive and even has gone the the point of making efforts to shield the signal that is emitted by the brood that the hive mind detects and even has killed the brood lords in the cult that have been born to try and stop or at least delay the time the swarm is drawn to his planet..

It all comes down to one thing in my view. The Patriarch is an entirely biological entity and therefore open to corruption on a cellular level from any number of sources:-
1- He could sustain injury which specifically damages the parts of him that make him receptive to the Hivemind's control, effectively reducing or utterly elliminating the Hive Mind's ability to subjugate him.
2- He could be an abherrant mutation, either radically altered so that he lacks the necessary wiring, or more subtly so that he retains control even when exposed to the the "signal".
3- He could have "gone native". Centries of building a vast army of followers/children, exposed to the philosophical leanings of everyone he enthralls. Perhaps not entirely unthinkable that perhaps (possibly as a cause of 1 or 2) he has become affected by their moral codes and the social mores of the culture he's consuming enough that it overrides his basic functions when the Tyranid fleet hoves into view.

1&2 could affect his ability to act as a beacon instead/also.


There's also "fluke". Tyranid fleets are drawn to Genestealer infestations because they are a kind of pre-digestion mechanism, a strong beacon indicates a massive level of infestation and therefore minimal resistance. It's a simple Effort/Reward equasion, we know Tyranid fleets (splinters, at least) suffer badly if they encounter persistant heavy resistance and will evenually reach a point where they have to withdraw or even hybernate.


The [Story/Saga/Legend] of the Patriarch.
The [injured/mutated/sympathetic] Patriarch who generates a [massive/average/weak] signal to the Hive fleets is currently infesting Planet X. The Becon signal he generates is picked up by a small/average/large Splinter Fleet that has been [hybernating/badly mauled/in deep space] and is incredibly desperate for biomass.

The inherrent risk of discovery becomes a fact as [locals/the authorities/the Inquisition] uncover the Patriarch's infestation because [vital persons go missing/routine checks are failed/some form of prescience] and hit the panic button, soon a fleet of [massive/average/modest] proportion is assembled to [investigate/purge] the planet and the [massive/average/small] opperation is under way as the Tyranid Fleet suddenly appears.

Pandemonium ensues the purge force is suddenly on the deffensive as bioships attack. On the planet's surface the Patriarch has been cornered and his "family" are mounting a final valiant but ultimately futile defence.
During the final battle the Patriarch is badly [wounded/captured/able to escape] and as he lays [on the verge of death/in stasis/flees the region in the last civillian transporter to escape the world] the Tyranids and the defenders are locked in a furious war.

Eventually the Tyranids are [repulsed/defeated/destroyed] and after the Genestealer infestation is declared "puged". All the while the Patriarch is [in hiding/planning his escape/in another sector entirely]. Possibly even entirely unaware that the Tyranids were called to his world as a direct result of his existance.
All that is for certain is, next time, he will be more careful.....



It is even more interesting when you consider the daemonic possession of such a patriarch in the cult...

Oh please, no. That was horrible. Back in the day it was fine, but now.....eurgh.

Charax
04-12-2011, 20:55
I miss those days :(

As for Broodlords (nice idea BTW), when the 4E Nids codex was released the designer notes stated that they were the new Patriarch and replaced it, as far as I'm aware, this has not changed.

...And then they released Xenology which explicitly references Patriarchs and the cult structure.

They're not the same thing at all, the ideas the designers were having at roughly the same time they created the Codex does not translate to what actually appeared in the background.

LonelyPath
04-12-2011, 21:13
...And then they released Xenology which explicitly references Patriarchs and the cult structure.

They're not the same thing at all, the ideas the designers were having at roughly the same time they created the Codex does not translate to what actually appeared in the background.

When/where did they release that? Not seen anything on them saying Broodlords not replacing the Patriarch when GW officially said they did. Unless of course they retconned it which wouldn't be the first time since their background is very mutable in the hands of different writers. However, the latest Nids codex also has the Broodlord in the position of the Patriarch.

Charax
04-12-2011, 22:36
Xenology was released a few months after the tyranid codex. It certainly trumps the designer's notes in terms of reliability regarding the background. If you choose to believe that it doesn't, thats up to you but it's a shaky basis for saying something as sweeping as "Broodlords replace Patriarchs" when the two creatures perform completely different functions (Invasion Vs Infiltration), are formed in different ways (Broodlords are the first ones to make Planetfall, Patriarchs are the first ones to implant a host) and when Patriarchs were mentioned after Broodlords were introduced.

LonelyPath
05-12-2011, 00:01
Xenology was released a few months after the tyranid codex. It certainly trumps the designer's notes in terms of reliability regarding the background. If you choose to believe that it doesn't, thats up to you but it's a shaky basis for saying something as sweeping as "Broodlords replace Patriarchs" when the two creatures perform completely different functions (Invasion Vs Infiltration), are formed in different ways (Broodlords are the first ones to make Planetfall, Patriarchs are the first ones to implant a host) and when Patriarchs were mentioned after Broodlords were introduced.

If it's Black Library then it's the codex trumping it since GW did state (but I forget where) that BL was non-canon. I also remember talking for a disgruntled Jervis Johnson and his thoughts on the matter (not all of them polite, lol).

Charax
05-12-2011, 00:19
it's not the codex, it's the designer's notes, In one article in white dwarf

And GW have never, EVER stated that BL is non-canon, their stance for several years now has been:


Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

That's from Marc Gascoigne, in reply to a question I asked him on the old Black Library forums (long since shut down, but that verbatim quote can be seen cited by several people in several places).

So, the "Everything is canon" PoV has a direct quote to back it up. your "BL is non-canon" view has no evidence save an anecdote about Jervis and a convenient gap in your memory.

Eldartank
05-12-2011, 00:28
This thread has some really awesome ideas for a campaign in the Deathwatch Roleplaying Game.

LonelyPath
05-12-2011, 01:54
it's not the codex, it's the designer's notes, In one article in white dwarf

And GW have never, EVER stated that BL is non-canon, their stance for several years now has been:



That's from Marc Gascoigne, in reply to a question I asked him on the old Black Library forums (long since shut down, but that verbatim quote can be seen cited by several people in several places).

So, the "Everything is canon" PoV has a direct quote to back it up. your "BL is non-canon" view has no evidence save an anecdote about Jervis and a convenient gap in your memory.

Codex: Tyranids 5th Edition:

"clans of Genestealers and their enthralled progeny have seized power from the untainted population and enthroned their monstrous Broodlords, the strongest and most dangerous of their kind, as rulers."

That seems to clear up the Patriarch/Broodlord argument :)

As for me not remembering the printed referrence, excuse me for suffering slight brain damage caused by a undiagnosed illness I'd not known I'd had for some time. I rememebr some things, but not others. But, GW did announce it somewhere, I would go look but it would require digging through many cupboards and checking thousands of pages of information to find the right thing. That in itself is difficult to do since I am also severely physically disabled.... I do know that it was stated in the last couple of years though if that helps narrow it down.

Charax
05-12-2011, 02:15
Codex: Tyranids 5th Edition:

"clans of Genestealers and their enthralled progeny have seized power from the untainted population and enthroned their monstrous Broodlords, the strongest and most dangerous of their kind, as rulers."

That seems to clear up the Patriarch/Broodlord argument :)
Oh, well if you say it clears it up I guess that’s the end of it.

Wait, didn't Marc say something regarding the canonicity of codex material? Something about it being as much half-truths as anything else?

Besides which that doesn't actually help us at all. Patriarchs must still exist because they were mentioned after the codex was written and their roles are different (patriarchs are psychic powerhouses with few equals. That's a pretty major element of what they are. Broodlords...are not)


As for me not remembering the printed referrence, excuse me for suffering slight brain damage caused by a undiagnosed illness I'd not known I'd had for some time. I rememebr some things, but not others. But, GW did announce it somewhere, I would go look but it would require digging through many cupboards and checking thousands of pages of information to find the right thing. That in itself is difficult to do since I am also severely physically disabled.... I do know that it was stated in the last couple of years though if that helps narrow it down.

Why you can't remember is unverifiable and irrelevant. You made an absolute statement of fact that cannot be substantiated and flies in direct contradiction to GWs stated position. Surely you don't expect me to take it on faith that you're correct?



Sent from my Dataslate using Voodoo Space Magic

zoggin-eck
05-12-2011, 08:22
An interesting idea but since the advent of the Broodlord I've considered them to be the Patriarch, just a leaner-meaner version that hasn't been sitting in some hidden culvert on a world he's busy infesting.




As for Broodlords (nice idea BTW), when the 4E Nids codex was released the designer notes stated that they were the new Patriarch and replaced it, as far as I'm aware, this has not changed.

It's so annoying that they then made the broodlord model look nothing like an actual genestealer, even getting the arms around the wrong way! (Human looking four fingered (should be five!) ones should be at the back, with stealer arms (in this case, talons) at the front. They then go and do it "propery" as in, patriarch style, for the Space Hulk one.

Either way, they are different things serving different functions. A patriarch isn't meant to be a specific tyranid construct anyway, rather just what happens to the original genestealer. A big, fat, bloated psychic 'stealer. So little has been written lately, perhaps new fluff may even have the patriarch/broodlord of a cult surviving, and that's who we see leading stealer broods in tyranid armies.

What a mess genestealer cults are anyway. There are differences with the different editions, even without considering they used to have nothing to do with the tyranids. Too late to go back, but the old "crime family overthrows government then boards ships to do it all again" fluff without it coming to an end is great fun. The turning to chaos just to protect the family angle never quite did it for me, however. Shame really. The idea of "infected with seed" humans having their reproductive systems changed and suddenly getting the overwhelming urge to mate and pass on to child and partner is so cool and creepy! Sadly so many didn't read any of it and just assumed monster hybrids popped out like in the movie Alien. People used to ask me how the brood brothers survived, as if the males had the hybrid baby!


I also remember talking for a disgruntled Jervis Johnson and his thoughts on the matter (not all of them polite, lol).

Was this regarding what happened to genestealers or the whole "canon" debate? Would absolutely love to know more!

Kiarr
05-12-2011, 08:57
Going back to the original question - IMO its quite possible for the Patriarch to evolve and think about rebelling especially considering he is essentially a Genestealer that would have been born including some DNA from the host creature (could be a psyker!) it could have altered the genestealer genetics in some way, you also have to remember (cant remember the source) that the Zoats were a slave race to the Tyranids as well and they rebelled and were wiped out by the main forces!

Chem-Dog
05-12-2011, 20:20
Either way, they are different things serving different functions.

Space Hulk's re-release would tend to disagree with you, the creature previously known in various editions as the Patriarch IS now called the Broodlord.

But let's contextualise this a little. "Patriarch" isn't actually the organism's "classification" it's the creatures' title according to a set of pseudo religious titles given to the various parts of the army which IS presented as a faith-cult in the RT armylist (Patriarch, Magus, Neophyte, Accolyte ect ect) and nobody has ever superceeded it.

With the advent of the classification of a "Broodlord" we can view this as a more generic classification for the organism that might be titled a "Patriarch" under very specific circumstances.

The Tyranid army Broodlords are simply never allowed to get old and bloated, they're kept at their prime performance level and recycled when they get damaged or start to creak a bit.


What a mess genestealer cults are anyway. There are differences with the different editions, even without considering they used to have nothing to do with the tyranids. Too late to go back, but the old "crime family overthrows government then boards ships to do it all again" fluff without it coming to an end is great fun. The turning to chaos just to protect the family angle never quite did it for me, however. Shame really. The idea of "infected with seed" humans having their reproductive systems changed and suddenly getting the overwhelming urge to mate and pass on to child and partner is so cool and creepy! Sadly so many didn't read any of it and just assumed monster hybrids popped out like in the movie Alien. People used to ask me how the brood brothers survived, as if the males had the hybrid baby!

Agreed. The old Genestealer "cult" paradigm does look incredibly sub-standard in the light of modern 40K lore but it's not a lost cause.
Expanding on the idea that they thrive in the environments that the Imperium itself creates would do wonders for the 40k setting in general, how hard would it be to imagine the rise of a cult amongst the disaffected underclasses of the Imperium? How hard would it be to imagine that cult's success when indoctrination is absolute? It's a Xenos sponsored anti establishment movement with added mind-control. Double jeapoardy for the Imperium....

barnEbiss
05-12-2011, 22:55
In the Tyranid codex of mine its said that at the end of a Tyranid invasion the planet has many Tyranids roaming the planet and the Hivemind releases control and basically lets them kill each other until only the few remain and the strongest are re-adsorbed into the hive ship. this indicates that when Hive mind control is broken Tyranids will openly attack each other and start acting on their own will, so that would lend to the ability of a older patriarch that has been severed many times from hive mind control developing more and more free will and self survival to the point he might openly hide and seek to cloak his presence from the hive mind to not drawn their attention to his planet..

LonelyPath
06-12-2011, 02:04
Oh, well if you say it clears it up I guess that’s the end of it.

Wait, didn't Marc say something regarding the canonicity of codex material? Something about it being as much half-truths as anything else?

Besides which that doesn't actually help us at all. Patriarchs must still exist because they were mentioned after the codex was written and their roles are different (patriarchs are psychic powerhouses with few equals. That's a pretty major element of what they are. Broodlords...are not)

Why you can't remember is unverifiable and irrelevant. You made an absolute statement of fact that cannot be substantiated and flies in direct contradiction to GWs stated position. Surely you don't expect me to take it on faith that you're correct?

Well, it was stated in a codex and I've got no recollection of having seen anything by Marc saying what you stated, reference please? Also, reference for the source of them stating the existence of Patriarchs since the release of the latest Nids codex if you can. That would also help and would be appreciated.

For someone that insists on references, you don't seem to supply many yourself ;)

If you must know the facts, I was Type 1 Diabetic for some time (about 8 months according to just asking someone and them reminding me) without knowing and undiagnosed, it damaged memory receptors in my brain and I'm lucky that's all it did when my blood sugar was 47mmol (should be below 8mmol) and my heart rate was nearing 300bpm when I was taken into hospital on the verge of Ketonic Coma. I wish I had a near perfect memory like I used to have, but these days I tend to forget more than I remember and normally get by due to daily routine and many notes in order to remember to do things (including reminding myself to take insulin and eat). I do have a much worse illness though known as Muscular Dystrophy, heh. However,m I think that reasoning is very relevant ;)

If you need proof though, I am sure I can send you my details of my medical conditions privately if you insist on them and refer you to other places I go online and you can contact people I know personally to prove I have the problems I state I have.

As for flying in the face of GW, they fly in the face of themselves often enough, lol. As for a reference to the non-canon thing, someone I game with thinks it may have been discussed on here in the News & Rumours a while back, but he's not certain either since he visits many forums so he might have seen it elsewhere, though he remembers seeing a discussion about it online. Still not helpful really, but it's more of a lead than before. I am trying my best to find a reference though.

Charax
06-12-2011, 02:29
I gave both references as soon as I mentioned them, pay more attention. They are, respectively;

An oft-quoted post on the old Black Library forum. I can give you a link to where it was, but it wouldn't work. The quote has been cited verbatim several times in several places.

And Xenology. Its a book, Google it.

Now go back to my first few posts in this thread and you will find those references cited, so given that I already cited them what exactly are you asking me for?

Beaviz81
29-12-2011, 18:22
I personally think it would only happen if the Genestealer Patriarch/Broodlord is killed. And the Magus ain't then the human side of the Magus could fall to the ruinous powers of Chaos due that temptation, and it would keep in line with the fluff of the earlier Genestealers.

hive fleet aphopis
29-12-2011, 19:02
I always thought that the broodlord is the peak of genestealer physical power while the patriarch is the physic peak of genestealers. different roles and strengths

Beaviz81
29-12-2011, 20:15
@ hive fleet aphopis
No the Patriarch is the old less dangerous Genestealer, the Broodlord is the new one. So I theorize that if the Patriarch is brought down, the Magus can be exposed to the taint of Chaos and ironically doom that part of the Hive Fleet due to how confusing it is for the Hive Mind to fight multiple enemies. At least that would reasonably explain the old Genestealer/Chaos-alliance.

shooley
29-12-2011, 21:28
@Charax

Regarding the "is a Patriarch the same as a Broodlord" sub-topic.

Page 40 of the 5th Edition Tyranid Codex:
"If even a single Genestealer reaches an inhabited world, it can
spell complete disaster for the populace. Genestealers
reproduce independently of the Hive Fleets by implanting
other life forms with their own genetic material. Once
infected, a victim is completely controlled by the Genestealers'
nascent telepathy. The Genestealer's attributes are passed on
in part to the victim's offspring, creating monstrous hybrid
creatures wholly under the primogenitor Genestealer's
domination. These deformities eventually breed true, creating
a generation of Genestealers, albeit ones that echo the
physical characteristics of their prey. As a result, the
Genestealers that have infested the Imperium of Man have
twisted parodies of human hands, grotesque fingernails
betraying the origins of their breeding stock. The deeper into
the galaxy a Genestealer infestation is to be found, the more
divergent in physique and demeanour the creatures are likely
to be from their 'purestrain' ancestors in the Hive Fleets. This
also goes some way to explain the range of behaviours noted
in different broods. Most seem content to lurk in the sewers
and caves beneath cities, preying on the populace like folktale
monsters of an earlier age. That said, rumours abound of
worlds where abominable clans of Genestealers and their
enthralled progeny have seized power from the untainted
population and enthroned their monstrous Broodlords, the
strongest and most dangerous of their kind, as rulers. Such a
thing might seem fanciful, but with a creature as determined
and adaptable as a Genestealer, it is perhaps wise not to rule
anything out.

No one knows for certain how widespread the Genestealer
infestation has become. For every brood uncovered and
purged, a dozen go unnoticed. When a Tyranid Hive Fleet
enters an infested system, the Hive Mind asserts its dominion
over the Broodlord and its clan. Planetary defenders are
thrown into disarray as Genestealers suddenly burst from the
shadows, overwhelming crucial systems and leaving the prey
world vulnerable before the merciless Tyranid onslaught."

That's straight from the codex, and the codex is where the vast majority of 40K players get the fluff; and has often been the only source for fluff available. It appears that the codex verifiably states that Patriarchs are the same as Broodlords. In fact, Broodlords have psychic powers of equivalent affect as Patriarchs of old. As they say, Codex rules trump the rulebook, I personally believe that the codex fluff trumps BL fluff.

My conclusion is this: All Patriarchs are Broodlords; not all Broodlords are Patriarchs.