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Tyrelli
04-12-2011, 19:17
Is there to many armies avalible or is there still "space" for another fantasy race to have a book .. (Enevitable fishman request)

If yes, what do you think would be "cool" and "new" to warhammer ..

IE cat people ..

Eddie Chaos
04-12-2011, 19:31
well I could see forge world doing Cathay

IMO it would be silly for GW proper to make another human army as they already make 3, 5 if you count dead humans.

Any new army would have to be different enough to justify its existence and I cant really think of a non human race that is mentioned enough to qualify.

Obviously they could make something new up like they did with the Tau, which brings us back to fishmen :)

thesheriff
04-12-2011, 19:36
I can see them doing it, as it could make GW a tonne of cash. They are a buisness after all.....

However, I would like to see them do more of the humna races. There so cool, and already have a dedicaed fanbase. BRING ON THE ARABY!!!!

thesheriff

Korraz
04-12-2011, 19:54
Simply: No.
No time.
No cash.
No space.
No need.


I can see them doing it, as it could make GW a tonne of cash.


It wouldn't. Nothing in WHFB does.

Eddie Chaos
04-12-2011, 19:55
RE: Cathay

Is the Dragon emperor a dragon? A whole Civilization of humans ruled over by a dragon?

My idea:

How about some aliens? What if there is a race that lives on Morrslieb and/or Mannslieb and can get to the planet through magical storms. They could be evil but very anti-chaos.

T10
04-12-2011, 20:12
Well, the Ogre Kingdoms popped out of no-where.

The only real challenge is to explain why such a new race would fight the Empire on a regular basis.

Confessor_Atol
04-12-2011, 20:18
This is an interesting question. In the last year the scope of the warhammer world has expanded dramatically. The SOM expansion and the blood in the badlands campaign and even Dread Fleet gives the warhammer world a sense of time and proportion. A new race would be a great addition to warhammer. The idea that there are differing races and city states, empires, and even dimensions everywhere means there limitless possibilities. It feels like some of the ol' timers (I included myself in this group) get grumpy when the game changes or expands. Ultimately you have to ride the wave, or find a game that inspires you. Grousing and whining on the internet never does anyone well.

Sadly that would mean that other things in sore need of an update may get pushed back. the rumored "contingent" expansion may be an good way to introduce units and background into the game without sacrificing too much in the production schedule.

bolshie
04-12-2011, 20:23
I'd like to see new races.

It's one of the reasons I like the contingent rumour.

My preference would be for an Ind army based on the Classic Ancient Indians, with chariots and elephants.

Confessor_Atol
04-12-2011, 20:34
I'd like to see new races.

It's one of the reasons I like the contingent rumour.

My preference would be for an Ind army based on the Classic Ancient Indians, with chariots and elephants.

I'd live to see some hindu-diety inspired models. That would be pretty cool and massively innovative/creative.

oooo..... or some tibet/tiwaneese cathy/nippon stuff. Something really ground-breaking.

Korraz
04-12-2011, 20:40
Well, the Ogre Kingdoms popped out of no-where.

The only real challenge is to explain why such a new race would fight the Empire on a regular basis.

They didn't pop out of nowhere. They just got their own book. That was also two editions and at least three races less ago.

And dear god, leave Aliens and other Warcraftian Horrors out of this mess...

Snake1311
04-12-2011, 21:06
And dear god, leave Aliens and other Warcraftian Horrors out of this mess...

Go go fantasy Tyranids!

On a serious note, if there is a new faction, it should be human-based, as much as Empire and Brets (i.e. more so than WoC). We almost have more elves than humans! This gives GW a nice choice of Cathay, Araby, Estalia, Ind etc so they can select whichever nation can field a unique-ish playstyle. For example, the suggestion about elephants and chariots sounds a little too much like TK's sphinxes and chariots.

Griefbringer
04-12-2011, 22:07
(Enevitable fishman request)


There is not that huge need for an actual army book for them, one can represent most of the fishman troop types using Empire army book eg. as follows:

* Swordsmen = Swordfishmen (light armour represents their scale mail)
* Spearmen = Halfpikemen (for real pikemen, take a look at the DoW army list)
* Handgunners = Blunderbasses (with enormous codpieces)
* Pistoliers = Blunderbasses mounted on motorpikes
* Knights = Crabs on seahorses (you could even use the current Empire knight models, since many people think they are a load of crab as it is)
* Flagellants: Fanatic flounders (armed with fishing rods)
* Greatswords: Giant swordfishmen
* Archers: Herrings with bows
* Steam tank: Whale on wheels
* Cannon: Harpoon with herring crew

Of course there will always be people carping about the need for a proper Fishman army book, no doubt.

Nautyboy
04-12-2011, 22:11
Simply: No.
No time.
No cash.
No space.
No need.

Bit strident there...

Is this an observation, or an earnest plea? :D

Either way, I shall join with you: Let's see the refinement of the armies which have languished, unloved for so long before we even think about more new ones, please.

slayer8045
04-12-2011, 22:15
It is a fantasy world, there is always room for more races.

THELOSTCITY
04-12-2011, 22:47
If you're after non human races, as mentioned before the Famir/Fish ppl could make a return.

Some of the older computer games had a lot of fighting in troll country, so there could be some sort of organised troll force. Although that may be too close to a green skinned ogre/beastman army.

Or if you're after something completely new they could introduce something new from lustria, like a mini /pygmy style thing (think those little undead/shrunken head things from "the mummy returns".

Gaargod
04-12-2011, 22:57
Fluffwise? Of course there's room, don't be silly. There's loads of races in the warhammer world that are already referenced or even quite important - take Araby (crusades of Bretonnia and the Emprie recently), Cathay (duh), Fishmen (always loads of hints, quite easy to introduce 'they want to be important again now'), etc.

Economics? Eh... As others have noted, GW has enough problems keeping up with the races they have now. A whole new race would be a) quite a risk, as it has no previous fanbase and thus b) a serious investment - take 40k dark eldar. They had to dedicate one of their best sculptors to the project pretty much full time for quite a while.

Gameplay? Ah, this is where it's interesting. All the races need to do 'something' different, in order not to feel like a copy paste job. And to be fair, this is generally the case - even with armies as similar as dark and high elves, there's still a lot of difference. Empire can do Bretonnian knights with cannons, but Bretonnia does better knights.
So the question becomes what would this new race do? This is entirely dependent on which race you pick of course. If you go for a non-human race, this isn't very difficult (pick 1 major aspect of war and, say, 3 minor ones. Base around that. Go). If you take a human race though, you start getting into issues. It would be another S3 T3 base unit race, for a start. And unfortunately, the obvious suggestion of 'proper horse archers', which would work rather nicely for Araby, doesn't actually work in warhammer. Or at least, not without a lot of pushing.
I dunno. I suspect it would be possible to make one work and feel different.

Sexiest_hero
04-12-2011, 23:10
Cloud sky, winged creatures,with lower toughness monsters that are good at avoiding projectiles. Or maybe men-sects

semper_fi
04-12-2011, 23:14
go panda's ... whoops totally different game there..

on another note: let them balance out the old races before introducing a few new ones

T10
04-12-2011, 23:25
They didn't pop out of nowhere. They just got their own book. That was also two editions and at least three races less ago.


Ogres used to ubiquitous to the Old World and present as a unit in more than one army book. The idea that these guys had their own slice of the world is relatively new. The fact that they went from being hired mercenaries (at best) to having their own army book just goes to prove that GW doesn't feel too restricted by what they HAVEN'T already introduced into the game world.

They're fully capable of coming up with something crazy and new, but I really wonder if they'll want to sell it. Best case scenario: over-all sales increase. Worst case: sales of current lines of models are dilluted.

Eddie Chaos
04-12-2011, 23:25
Cloud sky, winged creatures,with lower toughness monsters that are good at avoiding projectiles. Or maybe men-sects

The Man-sects of Morrslieb!

imarhil
04-12-2011, 23:38
This is an original topic (or at least not one Ive seen before) and i think the most important points have already been raised in every comment but these few stand out.

I can see them doing it, as it could make GW a tonne of cash. They are a buisness after all.....

A new race would be a great addition to warhammer. The idea that there are differing races and city states, empires, and even dimensions everywhere means there limitless possibilities... Sadly that would mean that other things in sore need of an update may get pushed back.

Gameplay? Ah, this is where it's interesting. All the races need to do 'something' different, in order not to feel like a copy paste job. And to be fair, this is generally the case - even with armies as similar as dark and high elves, there's still a lot of difference. Empire can do Bretonnian knights with cannons, but Bretonnia does better knights.
So the question becomes what would this new race do? This is entirely dependent on which race you pick of course. If you go for a non-human race, this isn't very difficult (pick 1 major aspect of war and, say, 3 minor ones. Base around that. Go). If you take a human race though, you start getting into issues. It would be another S3 T3 base unit race, for a start. And unfortunately, the obvious suggestion of 'proper horse archers', which would work rather nicely for Araby, doesn't actually work in warhammer. Or at least, not without a lot of pushing.
I dunno. I suspect it would be possible to make one work and feel different.
My personal thoughts, Yes there is room but as the cost of the other armies (woodelves springs to mind). Perhaps its more a question of 'if' or even 'when' should they do it? ;)

Lathrael
05-12-2011, 00:18
Or a dogs of war book, for everything plus leftovers.

cyberspite
05-12-2011, 02:09
From a purely aesthetic PoV there is always room for new armies, but from a financial perspective it would be a big risk.

It would require a lot of resources for a significant amount of time when you consider all the design, modeling, artwork, background and production costs, not to mention marketing and actually getting the product out there.

The only way they could do this without seriously effecting existing armies would be to hire more people and expand the studio, which is even more risk for what is, at the end of the day, a niche product.

Most gamers have a finite amount of money to spend and a new army is unlikely to bring large numbers of new players into the hobby, so any increased sales it would generate would just be balanced by reduced sales in existing lines.

For the record I would love a Cathay/Ind army but it basically comes down to what they think they can make the most profit from, a completely new army or updated empire, vampires, dwarfs etc.

Edit: This contingents rumour though would be a clever way of introducing new stuff and testing the water without committing to a full-on release.

Charistoph
05-12-2011, 03:25
How about some aliens? What if there is a race that lives on Morrslieb and/or Mannslieb and can get to the planet through magical storms. They could be evil but very anti-chaos.

Greenskins are the aliens, and Morrisleb is a huge chunk of the Chaos Gates the Old Ones used. So the 'aliens' we would be talking about would be Daemons or that SC in Beastmen no one takes and has no model.


Well, the Ogre Kingdoms popped out of no-where.

The only real challenge is to explain why such a new race would fight the Empire on a regular basis.

Ogres have been here longer than Lizardmen. And the Kingdoms have been known for a very long time, they were just never expanded on.


Ogres used to ubiquitous to the Old World and present as a unit in more than one army book. The idea that these guys had their own slice of the world is relatively new. The fact that they went from being hired mercenaries (at best) to having their own army book just goes to prove that GW doesn't feel too restricted by what they HAVEN'T already introduced into the game world.

No, it isn't that new, they have been mentioned often as having their own land for a while now. In a good way, I'm glad they took Dogs of War spot on the shelf.

But as for a new book, I'd be fine with it, but they'd have to seperate their 40K, Fantasy, Specialist Games, and LotR release schedules to do it properly. They affect each other, to their detriment, far too much to have a good schedule for what they have now. Adding more to either 40K Or Fantasy would be a Bad Thing.

Mike3791
05-12-2011, 05:26
What about Chaos Dwarves?

tanglethorn
05-12-2011, 05:45
I highly doubt there will be a new race if ever.

There are too many army books that need updating and I get the impression that resources are already spread thin.

I also think the warhammer world is spread a little thin. They have plenty of races to keep players busy and there is race for everyone's taste\playstyle.

I vote no and I think an additional race without first getting all the army books update to date is a very bad idea...

lbecks
05-12-2011, 05:51
I'm just hoping that contingents thing pans out.

Maskedman5oh4
05-12-2011, 06:04
I would'nt mind a new race; however, some races are severely needing an update that would take a fraction of the time of creating an entirely new race. Except GW seems willings to let some races decay and update the most popular armies - not saying this makes sense (or that it doesn't make sense)- but , what I am saying is that trying to forecast what GW will do makes zero sense. :p

russellmoo
05-12-2011, 06:28
I could see GW re-doing Dogs of War- but as far as a "new" race- I don't see it happening- their current trend has been to make their current products/line/armybooks better/of a higher quality/higher price-

T10
05-12-2011, 08:53
Ogres have been here longer than Lizardmen. And the Kingdoms have been known for a very long time, they were just never expanded on.


I'm not sure what you mean by "have been here longer", but the idea of them having their own empire is relatively new: I'm not aware of any references to the "Ogre Kingdoms" prior to the release of their first army book in the late days of 6th edition.

-T10

boli
05-12-2011, 09:20
I actually think there are a few references in 4th edition... talking about the Ogres having "warlike tribes" to the east but those who live in the empire's land will occasionally work for the empire; in the battle besitary.

But even if there is not Ogres pretty much dropped out of form for a good while but they used to be part of Empire. Honestly the biggest surprise from me re-entering 8th edition is whatever happened to kislev... there is a *lot*of background from there; especially as kislev archers were pretty much used in *every* battle report from white dwarf.

Personally I think there is only room to "expand" the current armies; so whilst kislev and norse may not warrent a full book to themselves they could be released as "Empire and allies" or something.

T10
05-12-2011, 09:52
Yeah, the Empire used to include neat non-human units of Halflings, Dwarfs and Ogres as well as "allied" units of Kislev Horse Archers and Winged Lancers. The current Empire list is without a doubt thematically stronger and more focused without these units, but I feel it's the poorer for it.

I feel there's room for an "extended" Empire that includes other races and humans from other nations.

-T10

WarmbloodedLizard
05-12-2011, 10:20
I'd say as soon as core rules favor more than just the narrow options they do right now it is possible. at the moment, there are just not enough variety in useful unit types. (e.g. melee skirmishers need to be tough (dryads) or go home (wardancers), most support units that are not cheap (eagles) are almost useless (glade riders, terradons), etc.

This is one of the biggest problems of 8th, a result of step-up, support attacks, horde rules and steadfast, and has to be addressed first before any new races are introduced as there is already a certain overlap in the "useful units" department between armies.

Aside from that, GW also need to release armybooks faster OR, what I would prefer, put more effort into internal balance (army books just shouldn't include no-brainers likes Mournfang Cavalry or Ironblasters), so that a new army doesn't delay the usefulness of older armies even more.

(please no random arguing about 8th not having any problems or the semantics of "useful".)

BigbyWolf
05-12-2011, 10:40
especially as kislev archers were pretty much used in *every* battle report from white dwarf.

Mainly because that was when Fanatics murdered everything, and they were the cheapest throw-away unit the empire could have. :p

Oogie boogie boss
05-12-2011, 11:02
Simple. Bring back Dogs of War. They had some absolutely amazing miniatures, and had great character. Or you could re-shape them in the form of a dedicated Tilean force.
Other than the Empire and Bretonnia, Tilea is one of the most frequently referenced human kingdoms in the Old World, so why don't they exist as an army?

Araby, Estalia or Cathay would be interesting, but i don't think would make enough money.

Fishmen. No. Never. Ever. Ever.

BigbyWolf
05-12-2011, 11:13
Firebreathing Manatees gets my vote. There was a brief discussion about the likelihood of them finally appearing in 40K, but that died out. Mounted on flying bases, obviously. And it would be good to get another of the Lustrian races into the game after the last few years of Lizardmen dominance.

Abviously they'd have to have basic infantry troops in there as well (akin to Gnoblars/ Ogres), but that's where the sloths and the other Lustrian mammals come in.

Semi-aquatic themed, and a darn sight more realistic than Fishmen.

diggerydoom
05-12-2011, 11:15
DoW would be a good option for forge world. Special units released on an ad-hoc basis, possibly with a campaign book like the one just released, could work really well!

They could also include rules for fielding them in other armies again, like storm of magic.

T10
05-12-2011, 11:18
Fishmen. No. Never. Ever. Ever.

I don't want to play against such an army. Ever.

-T10

Ebon
05-12-2011, 11:44
Is there to many armies avalible or is there still "space" for another fantasy race to have a book .. (Enevitable fishman request)

If yes, what do you think would be "cool" and "new" to warhammer ..

IE cat people ..

Space in the setting and the rules? Absolutely. Cat people would be cool but so would Cathay, Araby and Estalia lists. So would bringing back Chaos Dwarfs and Dogs of War (which could include all of the options I just mentioned). In fact, Dogs of War would probably be the best option. The old models are still great and full of character and GW could include units from everything I mentioned and then some. Plus, I want to be able to use my Birdmen again :)

That said, is there space in GW's production schedule? For a DoW army, maybe. They already have a (small but loyal) fanbase, some of the models are still being produced (although we'd probably have to suffer them going Failca$h if the army was properly resurrected) and the nature of the army means many of the units can be slotted into or borrowed from existing armies. But I think a DoW resurrection is the only additional army you're likely to see and even that's unlikely (for reasons of retail space, production costs, etc).

SVKBaki
05-12-2011, 12:59
We certainly need some fantasy equivalent of space marines :D

on more serious note, expanding current armies with subspecies would be better IMHO. Like halflings, mercenaries, for empire, some fishmen I can see in Lizardmen army.
Long story short, make other armies like Orcs and Goblins, many different choices - goblins, orcs, trolls, snotlings, giant, spiders, wolves, boars, squigs, whatever, just bring more variety, more units, more choice.

Another standalone army is simply unnecessary.

bolshie
05-12-2011, 13:22
Aside from that, GW also need to release armybooks faster OR, what I would prefer, put more effort into internal balance (army books just shouldn't include no-brainers likes Mournfang Cavalry or Ironblasters), so that a new army doesn't delay the usefulness of older armies even more.

Ironblasters and Mournfang cavalry are what gives the new Ogres an internal balance that the old book didn't have. And neither of them are automatic choices, but options. The only no-brainer in the new book are the 21pt sabretusks.

Razakel
05-12-2011, 14:51
Ironblasters and Mournfang cavalry are what gives the new Ogres an internal balance that the old book didn't have. And neither of them are automatic choices, but options. The only no-brainer in the new book are the 21pt sabretusks.

Indeed.

I agree with the other sentiments in the thread, there could surely be room for another army within the warhammer background, but I'd much rather update the current books. Particularly my Dwarves :D

Makaber
05-12-2011, 15:19
I don't see the problem of looking to the far east for new Warhammer factions. Lustria and Naggaroth are already pretty far away, and although it would be more difficult to explain why, say, Cathay would have an interest in the Empire, it would be easy to justify playing them against armies that are more mobile or ubiquitous, such as High and Dark Elves, Orcs, Beastmen, Lizardmen, and so on. If you want to be pendantic about it, having Cathay clashing with the Empire is no less exotic than having the Lizardmen do so, all it takes is some background reason for them to take an interest in the old world (like a change in political climate, or something).

As for what a new list could bring to the table (literally), there's some concepts I'd like to see more of in Warhammer that would be a nice shoe-in for Cathay. At the most basic level, certain wargear combinations are very rarely, if ever, seen, such as heavy elite infantry with spears (WS4, heavy armour, shield, spear), and heavy cavalry with bows. Furthermore, Cathay would present an excellent opportunity to combine mundane troop types (humans) with more esoteric concepts such as the mentioned terracotta warriors, that could have other attributes, such as being unbreakable but unstable. Ever since the Ghouls became undead as well, I've really missed having wildly different troop categories in the same army, which I find lends an enormeous amount of variation and character. I guess the nearest we have now is the forest spirits.

Finally, I believe Cathay is best from a game design concept, as it is the largest eastern power, and seems to have more potential for an amalgam of oriental concepts, rather than being semi-defined as a Warhammer parallel to something else, like Ind (India) and Nippon (Japan). I know Cathay is "Warhammer China" but it would also encompass the Himalayas, Korea, Cambodia, and so on.

So that's my two cents on it. I'd like to see a Cathayan army.

Rogue
05-12-2011, 17:40
Simply: No.
No time.
No cash.
No space.
No need.


This is the answer right here. GW has been cutting support of armies as of late rather than increasing their support for new armies. I don't see that trend changing anytime soon.

ashc
05-12-2011, 18:38
I think fantasy is fine as-is. The variety in armies in terms of both how they play and look is what keeps me interested in fantasy, and if I had the money I would certainly buy in to more than one. That is more than can be said for 40k, which does suffer from marinitis.

michaells
05-12-2011, 19:54
Bring back the amazons!

WarmbloodedLizard
05-12-2011, 22:41
Ironblasters and Mournfang cavalry are what gives the new Ogres an internal balance that the old book didn't have. And neither of them are automatic choices, but options. The only no-brainer in the new book are the 21pt sabretusks.

Mournfang Cavalry are the best choice in the book by quite a big margin and Ironblasters are also extremely good compared to the rest of the units. The new OK book may have an passable internal balance but it's not great.

(If you really think Mournfangs are on the same level as the other special choices, you might wanna have a look at them again. or compare the rare choices to the ironblaster: both monsters are more or less "useless" and the scraplauncher does something that Ogres have no problem doing: killing weak troops.)

bolshie
06-12-2011, 00:54
Mournfang Cavalry are the best choice in the book by quite a big margin and Ironblasters are also extremely good compared to the rest of the units. The new OK book may have an passable internal balance but it's not great.

(If you really think Mournfangs are on the same level as the other special choices, you might wanna have a look at them again. or compare the rare choices to the ironblaster: both monsters are more or less "useless" and the scraplauncher does something that Ogres have no problem doing: killing weak troops.)

Yes they are good (I never said they weren't), but then so are a lot of things in the new Ogre book, which I why I say the only no-brainer in the book is sabretusks, because they give you three deployment drops, for 63 points, which allows you to position the rest of the army to best advantage. You can add to that gnoblars (with or without trappers) which perform a similar function.... for 200 points you can pretty much know where your enemy is going to deploy.

And while I agree that Mournfangs are the best heavy cavalry in the game, I also think the other special choices are equally as good. Character sniping Maneaters, scouting Maneaters, Leadbelchers, Gorgers, even Yehtees, with the ethereal spam that is rumoured to be heading our way.

What makes the Ogre book good is that it offers a selection of tools, I don't see why you have choosen to focus on the (percieved) biggest hammer.

As for the monsters, I pretty much agree with you, I don't plan on buying any soon... though I do think they are useful for drawing fire, blocking line of sight, forcing the enemy to make bad target priority choices, and if they get to the enemy line doing damage in a support capacity... so not entirely useless.

Still back to the topic...

I would like to see the army of Ind based on a classical ancient Indian army, with chariots and elephants.

WarmbloodedLizard
06-12-2011, 07:31
the only no-brainer in the book is sabretusks

so we are arguing about the semantics of "no-brainer"?

my point was that Ogres do no have that great of an internal balance. In a competitive environment, you will see no monsters or hunters and a lot of mournfangs, which equals to not so great internal balance because some choices are quite a bit better than others.

This is the point that has to be improved if they want to introduce new armies.

bolshie
06-12-2011, 12:17
so we are arguing about the semantics of "no-brainer"?

my point was that Ogres do no have that great of an internal balance. In a competitive environment, you will see no monsters or hunters and a lot of mournfangs, which equals to not so great internal balance because some choices are quite a bit better than others.

This is the point that has to be improved if they want to introduce new armies.

The book has only been out a few months, so it is only natural that people want to try the new toys. It remains to be seen how things pan out in the long term.

snottlebocket
06-12-2011, 20:06
I would favor Araby the most. Most of warhammer has it's roots in distinctly Nordic and European mythologies. They've stolen from plenty of sources varying from Eastern European vampire stories and Greek mythology to celtic lore about fairy folk and spirits.

Arabian mythology has barely been touched though. There's a few hints about Djinn's and such here and there, but the middle east has a very rich history of stories and mythology to plunder for use in warhammer. Just imagine what you could do with the stories from a 1001 nights alone.

Plus Araby is a perfect counter point to the current fatalist, dark, brooding world of misery. It's no less peaceful but it's bright, opulent, decadent. Fabulously wealthy sheik's commanding armies of desert tribes, elite eunuchs, forlorn slaves. Backed up by fantastic colorful creatures like Djinn's, the flying Roc and the fiery ifrit and unbelieveable animals like war elephants, giant scorpions and more. Aided by magical treasures like flying carpets, magic lamps, living ropes and other trinkets that make our current weapons look like blunt
butcher's tools. Mathematicians and other scientists support the army with machines and contraptions that seem more like magic than simple engineering.

SotF
06-12-2011, 20:21
Actually, something similar to a fantasy 'nids army could work well.

Just go with more of a focus on the insect swarm concept. Hell, read the Codex Alera series and imagine a Vord type army unleashed.

Cheap, massed forces that are really only a threat in quantity.

snottlebocket
06-12-2011, 20:22
Cheap, massed forces that are really only a threat in quantity.

That covers nearly every army in this edition.

SotF
06-12-2011, 20:26
That covers nearly every army in this edition.

By cheap, I mean you're getting in the 1/2 points for most of the units. The extremely dirt cheap and terrifying in that there are enough coming at you that your horde isn't likely to even tear through half their numbers before they tear you apart by sheer odds of numbers.

SanDiegoSurrealist
06-12-2011, 20:30
What about Chaos Dwarves?

I second this.

Would like to see and official GW Chaos Dwarf book.

snottlebocket
06-12-2011, 20:36
By cheap, I mean you're getting in the 1/2 points for most of the units. The extremely dirt cheap and terrifying in that there are enough coming at you that your horde isn't likely to even tear through half their numbers before they tear you apart by sheer odds of numbers.

The problem with that is the warhammer rules aren't really suited for that. You could end up with units that have a stat line full of 1's and it wouldn't matter because you can't kill them fast enough in six turns.

You'd have to write swathes of army specific rules to deal with it and that's exactly what GW's trying to avoid.

iosu1978
07-12-2011, 12:37
I second this.

Would like to see and official GW Chaos Dwarf book.

All this thread goes in this direction, on a big fanbase that dont have what they like, that is a dark technologycal sorcery bound slaver army. Fits really really well, i am sure it would sell tons!. Just have a look at all the fluff:cool:

Max_Killfactor
07-12-2011, 12:52
I don't think GW can do it, they have enough issues keeping up with the current books.

However, I'd be all over Catmen.. especially because I've been playing my Khajiit in Skyrim a lot..

Korraz
07-12-2011, 19:32
All this thread goes in this direction, on a big fanbase that dont have what they like, that is a dark technologycal sorcery bound slaver army. Fits really really well, i am sure it would sell tons!. Just have a look at all the fluff:cool:

The actual CD community is very, very, tiny, and it wouldn't become much bigger. CD were, are and will always be very niche. That niche is simply extremely vocal, and supported by people that like to shout for shouting's sake.

ashc
07-12-2011, 19:38
Tamurkhan is out now and there is a large amount of Chaos Dwarf stuff. Not only that, but recently the 'no forgeworld' stance has been dropped. Now have fun and don't go too crazy. :)

Voss
07-12-2011, 20:34
It is a fantasy world, there is always room for more races.

Oh, I completely disagree with this (partly because D&D has tried this repeatedly). The unrestricted replication of intelligent species for no other reason than to have more is very bad for a setting. Ideally, the setting should be coherent and consistent, and yet more species popping out of nowhere undermines both. It also undermines the distinctiveness of each race (cue D&D where dozens of 'orc-equivalents' have been created over the years, for no gain- at one point when I was considering running a campaign I was culling the Monster manuals to something sensible, and found there were several hundred intelligent species, all theoretically sharing the same world. I cut it down to about 50, and it still felt like too much)

More species works with _sci-fi_ because you have a galaxy full of planets.
(in general, though its problematic in 40K where you have multiple galaxy spanning groups that tend to kill anything they come across, and its Space Fantasy, not Sci-fi anyway. Little species are fine, but more galactic level threats don't have any space left).

But for fantasy, there is only limited space on the singular world, and a well established background that completely leaves out any new race.

ShasOFish
07-12-2011, 21:47
But for fantasy, there is only limited space on the singular world, and a well established background that completely leaves out any new race.

Except it has also been established that there are fishmen kingdoms, Chaos Dwarves, a significant number of Human empires never touched upon, save for Epic-scale, the Southland Jungles (which the Lizardmen are in possession of, but their book focuses more on Lustria, leaving a potential expansion there), and Albion, among others.

GW left plenty of opening for future expansions. Just look at the maps. There are mentions of Djinn, intelligent apes, cat people, hobgoblins, and a lot of vagarities that could fully lend themselves to new ideas.

AlphariusOmegon20
07-12-2011, 23:19
The actual CD community is very, very, tiny, and it wouldn't become much bigger. CD were, are and will always be very niche. That niche is simply extremely vocal, and supported by people that like to shout for shouting's sake.

Ah you mean kind of like Wood Elf players????

See how that line of thinking cuts both ways?

The reason why the CD community is tiny is the damn army hasn't been supported since 2000. You can not say with any certainty that CD would still be a niche until GW takes up the mantle and releases a new fully supported book for them (FW doesn't count as that is niche in general) as a common release.

If it does not sell after that, THEN you can say they are a niche army.

Korraz
08-12-2011, 01:15
Yes, like the WE. But the CD got dropped. Tough luck. And even WE (ESPECIALLY Wood Elves) have a better chance to get new players than CD would have. CD are simply a "very special" army. A rerelease would fall flat on its face, unless they make the army hilariously overpowered I'mlookingatyoudemons, because CD are simply not very mainstream. There is a good reason why there is so much resistance against a revival.
Sure, no support doesn't help, but a rerelease would be a loss-leader. I don't have any numbers, but I guess there's a reason why GW took the gamble of giving Ogres and TK their own books, instead of remaking the CD one. Some armies are simply niche armies, and no matter how much support you give them could change that.
Now, this is of course purely anectoditcal, but once the New and Shiny had worn off, neither the TK nor the Ogre players have increased by much around here, and the Necron release floundered pretty good. And CD are the prime example of a Super Niche Army.

txamil
08-12-2011, 02:07
The new races I want to see are wood elves or Brettonians.

ImperiusDominatus
08-12-2011, 07:18
I'm pretty firmly in the "no new races" camp. Update all of the current ones first before you even think of bringing in new ones; even then I think there's already enough variety among the current races to keep everyone happy.

Though if I had to choose, I think Araby would be cool. Purely because I'd love a fast desert-themed raiding army.

Arijharn
08-12-2011, 07:43
I'd love to see Cathay be fleshed out, and I've wanted that since I read the Nagash books.

Duke Ramulots
08-12-2011, 08:27
My plan for new races

step1: Update all the armies to the current edition(8th)
step2: fully support all characters, units, and monsters with models.
step3: Bring forth any new race(s) as long as steps 1 & 2 are being followed.

Edit: I would like to see cat-people and would paint them all like my cats...lol. I am crazy cat guy

Voss
08-12-2011, 20:22
Except it has also been established that there are fishmen kingdoms, Chaos Dwarves, a significant number of Human empires never touched upon, save for Epic-scale, the Southland Jungles (which the Lizardmen are in possession of, but their book focuses more on Lustria, leaving a potential expansion there), and Albion, among others.

GW left plenty of opening for future expansions. Just look at the maps. There are mentions of Djinn, intelligent apes, cat people, hobgoblins, and a lot of vagarities that could fully lend themselves to new ideas.

They don't, really. All you've listed are 'other dwarves', 'other humans', 'other beastmen' and 'other goblinoids'. The fishmen are a joke, and are not established by any means. All they have are a single vague reference in a dark elf SC's background.

As far as making distinct and interesting armies, there really isn't much design space, either in concept (we have enough humans, elves, dwarves, undead, and evil humanoids already), or in playstyle.

I think a tighter focus would serve the game better than just 'more'. And that would include incorporating a few chaos dwarf things back into the Chaos list, and picking up the few remaining interesting ideas in the wood elf list in a 'not-evil elves' list. High Elves had wardancers in times past, they can just have those back and pick up a few mobile trees. Keep the WE plastics (as they are better models than the HE plastics) and its done, and done well. Then we can just have elves and evil elves, and not worry about those other elves who GW obviously can't think up good ideas for (otherwise they wouldn't go 10 years between updates).

Then, for people who want to do a 'wood elf' army, they can do archers, wardancers and trees, rather than the 'high elf' themed army, which focuses on the units with metal armour. Or people can pick and choose and do the elf army that they actually want.

zhu bajie
08-12-2011, 22:50
China is a huge market, which I don't think GW has quite tapped. Getting Cathay right - meaning that the Chinese can relate to it in the same way as most Europeans can relate to the Empire - without being offensive (or perhaps being a bit offensive, but in the right way) is going to need a lot of work - but the rewards are potentially massive.


Personally I'd rather see Amazons. Koka-kalim with power weapons. Warhammer needs more anarcho-feminist punks and a slight touch of science-fantasy to counterbalance the slight touch of steampunk in other areas.

Korraz
08-12-2011, 23:08
Oh god no, no no no on no.
Making an army/race/whatever to specifically cater to the denizens of a certain country just does not work. It does not work this way. It doesn't. Otherwise Anima Tactics would be the big seller in Japan and Korea. But it isn't. Most Europeans CAN'T relate to the Empire. At all. That's not how it works.
Also, China is not a market for GW. It's not. China isn't the western world with more people and a few whacky traditions and a political system that completely abandoned the illusion that the U.S. one tries to maintain. Most people simply do not have the money, nor the space, nor the time to play Warhammer.

zhu bajie
08-12-2011, 23:40
Seriously, do you think the Empire isn't a joke about European history? Or is it that you think that most Warhammer players are so uneducated that they can't see the reference?

Products are developed to enter specific territories all the time. Costs can be driven down though localised manufacture. And if you don't think there are any rich spoilt brats in China who can afford the time and space to play Warhammer, you're very much mistaken.

But anyway, Cathay is all about getting the subtleties of the alternate-china right, and not clumsy stereotypes.

Korraz
09-12-2011, 01:06
I never said that. Neither did you.
The Empire is also not about European history in general, it's about German and Austrian history.

And I sure as hell did not thought "OH, GEE! FANTASY HOMAGES TO GERMANS! I can so totally relate to this army!"
Really. Nobody* starts Empire because they are pseudogermans. Nobody in China will start Cathay because of YOUCANPLAYCHINESENOW!

And that few spoiled brats are hardly a "huge market."

*Yes, there's always That One Exception.

Voss
09-12-2011, 02:34
I never said that. Neither did you.
The Empire is also not about European history in general, it's about German and Austrian history.

And I sure as hell did not thought "OH, GEE! FANTASY HOMAGES TO GERMANS! I can so totally relate to this army!"
Really. Nobody* starts Empire because they are pseudogermans. Nobody in China will start Cathay because of YOUCANPLAYCHINESENOW!

And that few spoiled brats are hardly a "huge market."

*Yes, there's always That One Exception.
That one exception is bigger than you think. I've met a lot of people (and include myself in this) who do play a class (in RPGs)/race/army/game because it appeals to their heritage or a culture they have a fondness for. This isn't an unusual thing. If you appeal to someone's preferences, you are more likely to get their interest.

Tupinamba
09-12-2011, 10:19
As much as Id love to see new human armies, like Araby, Ind and Nippon/Cathay (and I think that gamewise they could and would be very different from Empire or Brettonia; historical games manage to capture very well the profound differences in human armies after all), I dont think that GW could handle another new one.

Id rather see them updating the existing armies faster, not just before the 9th ed. comes out... and would like to see their discontinued armies back and properly supported.

Ive no interest in building a CD army myself or anything, but people actually bought GW miniatures for CD and Dogs of War and profoundly dislike GW policy of just giving those players a fig.

Maybe a consolidation of armies with possible internal variants (single Chaos book, single Elves book etc.) could make room for a more professional and even policy of keeping updated and balanced armies, reintroducing DoW and CD and even possibly getting Araby etc. as playable race.

Luigi
16-12-2011, 19:11
:shifty: http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/File:Nippon-06.jpg :shifty:

The Low King
16-12-2011, 19:34
I think the issue is: what would a new race do that is different?

Currently, pretty much every area is covered.

We have:
-Combat based armies
-Numberless horde armies
-Warmachine armies
-Gadget armies
-Magic based armies
-Cavalry armies
-Monster armies
-Undead armies
-Chariot armies
-Character based armies
-Elite armies
-Cheap armies
-Tough armies
-Frail armies
......

the list goes on

what could a new race do (without inventing completely new rules) that the old ones cant?

Duke Ramulots
16-12-2011, 19:46
what could a new race do (without inventing completely new rules) that the old ones cant?

It could simply be about "flavor". For instance, they could make an American Indian style army and just have it be a rebadged wood elves and I would buy it. Hell, all the armies could have a copy on the other side of the order/Destruction coin and would add even more veriety to an already vast game.

Garion
16-12-2011, 19:52
I would like to see a Kingdom of ind one. You could have war elephants and crazy women with 4 arms each hands carrying a sword, and tiger men, bombadiers types, basalisks an army possibly more akin to goblins only a bit tougher and slightly less crazy. I think there would be lots of scope there.

WarmbloodedLizard
16-12-2011, 19:54
-Monster armies
-Frail armies


-There is no monster army (so something like Titans?).
-There are no really frail armies (as in T2)
-flying/high movement armies

of course, these things would be rather hard to design/balance, but it might still be possible :D

Charistoph
16-12-2011, 21:15
-There is no monster army (so something like Titans?).

Not monsters per se, but there is a Monstrous Army in Ogres, and Warriors can play one on TV.


-There are no really frail armies (as in T2)

Skinks?


-flying/high movement armies

While not flying, Slaanesh daemons come close, especially Seekers.

Edit:And if they counted the Bats as Core, you could do a flying army with Vampires.

True, only the first is defined as such, but still, it IS doable.

WarmbloodedLizard
16-12-2011, 21:34
1. ogres are not monsters, they are a completetly different type.
2. just because there are armies that have these elements doesn't mean much. it really depends on how the elements are combined within a unit and what units are combined within an armybook. e.g. you can't go combat heavy with skinks (because they are the worst close combat units in the game).

Voss
16-12-2011, 21:41
It could simply be about "flavor". For instance, they could make an American Indian style army and just have it be a rebadged wood elves and I would buy it. Hell, all the armies could have a copy on the other side of the order/Destruction coin and would add even more veriety to an already vast game.

Mirror copies would be less variety, not more. Several of the armies barely have a niche of their own as it is... adding more just like them (but evil!) just makes things worse.

As to the other part of your statement... well, there is an awful lot wrong with it. Even if you divide them into regional chunks, SW Indians aren't the same as plains Indians, who are different from Pacific northwest indians, who aren't like the confederacies in what became PA and NY, or the mid atlantic tribes, or the southeastern tribes. Cultures and methods of war are wildly different. And thats assuming that the 'Warhammer version of <culture X>' isn't tired and played out anyway.

I would like to see a Kingdom of ind one. You could have war elephants and crazy women with 4 arms each hands carrying a sword, and tiger men, bombadiers types, basalisks an army possibly more akin to goblins only a bit tougher and slightly less crazy. I think there would be lots of scope there.
Out of curiosity... I can grasp where you are pulling elephants, 4 armed women (although...) and tigermen from, but the bombadiers and basilisks seem out of left field.

ihavetoomuchminis
16-12-2011, 21:43
Oh no, more armies no, pleas. I think that there's yet 2 armies that shouldn't be there. I won't tell wich armies because i don't want anybody to be offended.

How many armies do we have? 15.....that's too much. No wonder some armies take centuries to get updated, or get poor updates.

ashc
16-12-2011, 21:47
I think there is plenty of tactical scope and style with what there is already, i get a kick out of planning fantasy armies because of the radically different styles and options to choose from. I think this is a stark contrast to 40k where i feel there is little difference in a game dominated by a single army type with little tweaks to taste.

Duke Ramulots
16-12-2011, 23:20
Mirror copies would be less variety, not more. Several of the armies barely have a niche of their own as it is... adding more just like them (but evil!) just makes things worse.
so expanding 13 armies to 26 is less variety?


As to the other part of your statement... well, there is an awful lot wrong with it. Even if you divide them into regional chunks, SW Indians aren't the same as plains Indians, who are different from Pacific northwest indians, who aren't like the confederacies in what became PA and NY, or the mid atlantic tribes, or the southeastern tribes. Cultures and methods of war are wildly different. And thats assuming that the 'Warhammer version of <culture X>' isn't tired and played out anyway.

No there is nothing wrong with my statement as it was an opinion and opinions/imaginings cannot be right or wrong. As for the diferences in the types of natives, the vast array of orcs and Goblins all fit into one book, so could a representation of all tribes of the Americas if they wanted to delve so deep. I was thinking more the cavaly archers and skirmishing warriors of the classic "cowboys and indians" genre.

lbecks
16-12-2011, 23:23
ooooh 26 armies. I could really enjoy that. There could be other side of the world-hammer with everything around Cathay and the east.

The Low King
16-12-2011, 23:58
1. ogres are not monsters, they are a completetly different type.
2. just because there are armies that have these elements doesn't mean much. it really depends on how the elements are combined within a unit and what units are combined within an armybook. e.g. you can't go combat heavy with skinks (because they are the worst close combat units in the game).

An army of monsters would be unbalanced as it would pwn elite armies and fail vs things like skaven

Well, the reason you cant go combat heavy with skinks is because they are frail...the only army that has frail but hard hitting troops is high elves...and more frail and no matter how strong it would be idiocy to try and go combat heavy.

If people want the same armies with different names (e.g. the suggested evil version of everythin) then why no just take your normal army and write some fluff that says it is evil? for example, ive seen dwarf models made to took mechanical then used as Tomb Kings....Dwarfs used as chaos dwarfs...why couldnt you just use empire rules for a Carthay army?

Gorbad Ironclaw
17-12-2011, 05:26
so expanding 13 armies to 26 is less variety?


Having a higher number of armies doesn't actually do anything for variety if they don't do anything differently. What would you consider more varied, a game system with 26 armies where 25 of them are identical and one that's slightly different or a system with 4 different armies that are all very different from each other?

There is only so much design space inside Warhammer. By spreading it out over more and more armies you are almost forced to make each army more like the others as there is just less scope for making it unique and different from all others.

lbecks
17-12-2011, 05:31
Having a higher number of armies doesn't actually do anything for variety if they don't do anything differently. What would you consider more varied, a game system with 26 armies where 25 of them are identical and one that's slightly different or a system with 4 different armies that are all very different from each other?

There is only so much design space inside Warhammer. By spreading it out over more and more armies you are almost forced to make each army more like the others as there is just less scope for making it unique and different from all others.

It does a great deal for model variety. I love models.

Luigi
17-12-2011, 06:20
It does a great deal for model variety. I love models.

Yea it would be much better, and doable to have all official miniatures for, let's say, cathay or nippon and just have to use the rules of the Empire.

WarmbloodedLizard
17-12-2011, 09:00
An army of monsters would be unbalanced as it would pwn elite armies and fail vs things like skaven

Well, the reason you cant go combat heavy with skinks is because they are frail...the only army that has frail but hard hitting troops is high elves...and more frail and no matter how strong it would be idiocy to try and go combat heavy.

1.


of course, these things would be rather hard to design/balance, but it might still be possible :D

2. HE are not much more frail than empire, DE, skaven, etc. That's just a misconception because they are both frail and elite.

3. the reason you can't go combat heavy with skinks is because they suck in absolutely every aspect of it except maneuvering/initiative. Not primarily because of their frailness.

4. as you can see above I also said that designing/balancing them would not be easy. I don't think however that it would be impossible. you just have to design with the problems in mind. e.g. titans would be extremely suceptible to multiwound weapons so you give them either a shield that gives a Ward against ranged weapons, or armor that will reduce all multiwound weapons to 1 wound but let every wound also reduce his AS with every wound he takes from a weapon of S5 or higher, or just half the wounds taken by multiwound. (and I'm sure there are a lot better, more subtle designs possible than the ones i just mentioned) There really are a lot of things that can be done. and I'm sure it could be balanced somehow (especially if taking into account that balance in Warhammer is not really all that great.)

Duke Ramulots
17-12-2011, 15:48
There is only so much design space inside Warhammer.

The only thing limiting the design is their imaginations. If they copied the rules for lets say high elves and called them eastern cat people, they would sell.

ashc
17-12-2011, 16:03
The only thing limiting the design is their imaginations. If they copied the rules for lets say high elves and called them eastern cat people, they would sell.

but what would be the point...? - You basically argue that GW shouldn't bother to make rules at all and literally just make models; consider the backlash that will get on these boards.

You could counts-as High Elves as eastern cat people anyway if you find some models ;)

WarmbloodedLizard
17-12-2011, 16:50
The only thing limiting the design is their imaginations. If they copied the rules for lets say high elves and called them eastern cat people, they would sell.

fluff really is never a problem I think, you can always come up with something new. it's desgin elements that are limited.

lbecks
17-12-2011, 16:53
but what would be the point...? - You basically argue that GW shouldn't bother to make rules at all and literally just make models; consider the backlash that will get on these boards.

You could counts-as High Elves as eastern cat people anyway if you find some models ;)

But I want GW plastic cat people.

Duke Ramulots
17-12-2011, 17:48
but what would be the point...? - You basically argue that GW shouldn't bother to make rules at all and literally just make models; consider the backlash that will get on these boards.

You could counts-as High Elves as eastern cat people anyway if you find some models ;)

What do you mean? What's the "point" in grown men playing with minis anyway, it's all rather silly. I think the point is fun and more armies would be fun for me.


But I want GW plastic cat people.

amen brother, amen... :angel:

Edit: I would paint mine like house cats and they would be commanded by the evil Mr. snookums...lol

Quinzy
17-12-2011, 18:09
He means that within the game system, having two armies that are identical, bar aesthetic differences, is pointless for the hobby, when one is capable of simply modelling said army yourself and using the pre-existing rules.

Now if you were to request GW to create said miniatures, in order to facilitate this endeavour, that's a different story again. The point is that it could cost the company a fortune, as well as detract some of it's best rules writers and figure modellers from more profitable armies.

dimetri1
17-12-2011, 21:40
There is always room for another race. I think GW could introduce a new army and work on the outdated books also. Well....... except they need to scrap the Tomb King book and rewrite it(just my opinion).

Charistoph
17-12-2011, 23:00
1. ogres are not monsters, they are a completetly different type.

Never said they were. I said Monstrous, as in Monstrous Infantry. You know the type that natively Ranks by 3 and provides Stomp? Heck, they even have a Chariot that's monstrous.

But, hey, if you're friend's nice enough, see if you can convince them to let you play a Dragon army using the SoM Dragons, Dragon Ogres, and Shaggoths for a true Monster army. The game is what you make it.


2. just because there are armies that have these elements doesn't mean much. it really depends on how the elements are combined within a unit and what units are combined within an armybook. e.g. you can't go combat heavy with skinks (because they are the worst close combat units in the game).

It means everything if you can comprise an entire amy with said elements. It's not woth making an all Skink army, really, but the point was that you CAN.

Mithras69
18-12-2011, 09:38
Amazons done well should sell a ton of mini's.