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John Wernkvist
05-12-2011, 10:51
So, I play a Caledor army. I focus on dragons. Dragons and nothing else. My lists tend to be very fluffy and not that competitive. I've painted up an Archmage on moon dragon and now I want to test it in battle.

I've searched the internet for tactics, general directions or instructions of how to do this, but EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM ends up in a long rant of reasons why one should not do it in the first place.

To summarise the internet forums: The concept of mages is that you want to keep them out of the CC to buff, debuff or damage in range. While the dragon is the complete opposite.

Needles to say, I figure this makes the Archmage on moon dragon build one big flying lizard of contradiction.

I started this thread to get a few good opinions on how to make this build, NOT opinions on why it shouldn't be done.

So with that out of the way, maybe to start which lore he should use? :)
Since he will be flying around a lot, then maybe I should treat him sort of like a mage on a giant GE? Or use defensive magic to make him last in CC?

Francis
05-12-2011, 11:20
I would use Lore of Fire due to the multiple damage spells in it (and fluff), and then I would toss in Talisman of preservation to give him some chance of survival. Finally I would give him Jewel of the Dusk +1 power dice gives him the chance to toss out more fire.

Shamutanti
05-12-2011, 11:28
If you were going to pick lore of fire surely you would just plump for the Dragon Mage?

Personally I would pick something like Beasts. Buffing the dragon a little is helpful, you can make your mage somewhat resilient, you might get yourself ANOTHER bolt thrower (depending on how many you use already) and it'll be mainly raking down people's flanks, and if/when you charge into combat you'll be doing it from the side to minimise attacks back and beasts will let you mop up there.

warplock
05-12-2011, 15:15
What about Foliarth's Robe to make him immune to non-magical attacks? That was you can flank and rip into regular units with ease and without worrying about your mage being targetted by rank and file.
Unless that is for mages on foot only. I don't have the book with me.

bam4k
05-12-2011, 17:39
What about Foliarth's Robe to make him immune to non-magical attacks? That was you can flank and rip into regular units with ease and without worrying about your mage being targetted by rank and file.
Unless that is for mages on foot only. I don't have the book with me.

I believe that it is for models on foot only.

EnternalVoid
05-12-2011, 19:23
Personally I would not put an archmage on a dragon. That said you are looking on advice on what one could do to make it more feasible so I will throw in some thoughts.

Your greatest enemy is multi wound templates, namely cannons and stone throwers. Both my Lore and my magic items will be built around this and what it can do effectively. The four lores that pop out to me are; Life, Light, Death, and High. Here are my reasons for each.

Life has a way to heal both rider and mount with the lore attribute and a possible spell, so if someone half kills your dragon or archmage they have to worry that with each spell he gets off he is going to start recovering. And there is Regrowth. In addition the default spell can give both the rider and dragon a 5+ regeneration save *4+ if you have Throne of Vines*. It is relatively easy to cast for an archmage and as long as they don't have flaming shooting it can be a viable missile defense. In addition this lore has a powerful defensive spell to aid your army in Flesh to Stone. One could even use it on the archmage and dragon for a T5 mage and T8 dragon, though this would be more if you see a certain threat coming. If I was using this lore, I would have Great Eagles go after warmachines as best as they can as the dragon tries to hide first turn, then second turn hopefully the eagles are on their way after the warmachines and my mage can start aiding my units with spell support.

Light is good as it has a wide range of spells. Pha's protection is good all around, the bubble version can even protect your army. With cannons and stone throwers needing a 4+ to hit due to the spell. And you roll for it after said shot hits, thus they can still misfire, see pg10 in FAQ, it is really nasty to have the whole shot discounted because if the 4+. Seering Doom is a good offensive spell to have just in case as well, access to flaming attacks are generally not a bad thing, more so when you can make them S6. Timewarp does not help high elves as much as other races, but it can still give you 3 attacks with Dragon Princes and 2 attacks with White Lions. Also remember, it effects their movement till the next turn too. So if you cast it on White Lions first turn, second turn they have a Movement of 10, good for a second turn charge or Super March. I have seen a few people use it on Cav so it can march 20" second turn and be in position to flank or rear charge 3rd turn. Light also has Speed of Light and Light of Battle, both not bad. Nor is Banishment against certain targets.

Death is basically the idea that you are going to try and kill what can kill you first. Between the sniper spells and purple sun you have several ways to kill single models. With a 20" Fly if you handle it right you can get warmachines, Monsters, or wizards in line for these spells with hopefully little risk to yourself. Basically you are protecting yourself by killing the things that are more likely to kill you, very proactive. The three sniper spells all should make short work of warmachines and low level wizards *I generally target them before Lv4 as Lv4s often have wardsaves and other protection*. Purple Sun is a threat to monster and the like most of the time. Doom and Darkness and Soulblight are both good support spells to help you break units faster once the battle lines have met. They can also protect your dragon and archmage a little if something does get to them.

For High magic it is again, you are a mobile spell launcher. With Shield being the default spell you can easily get the 5+ ward save spell either for your rider and dragon, or for a key unit. You can also get several spells that mess up battle plans between Vaul's Unmaking and Flames of the Phoenix. I would not bother with Arrow of Attraction as a archmage on a dragon in my opinion is not for a shooting list. With Vaul being table to take key magic items away *thus disrupt clever set ups* and Flames of the Phoenix being able to take a chunk out of hordes or reduce smaller units to a size they are no longer as threatening *20 repeater crossbows are scary, 10-11 are still scary but not as much*. Fury of Khaine can also be used to pick off small units that might be causing problems too.

For gear, the first item I would always consider is the Silver Wand. It is cheap and can help insure you get the spells you want. A seerstaff would actually be better insurance but it is also three times as expensive, thus I would consider Silver Wand first and then consider if I want something else. After that I would look to protection.

TowerGuard
05-12-2011, 20:47
I've often thought of taking the same unit for fun.

I think you really need to try to make him survivable in combat.

The items I toyed around with were:
WS10 weapon - Most guys will need 5's to hit you then
4+ or 5+ (Guardian Phoenix) WdSv
With the 4+WdSv I think you could still squeeze in the Staff of Solidity too.
With the 5+WdSv you could maybe take a Potion on top of that.

Not sure about lore as I don't have the books in front of me.

Tuttivillus
05-12-2011, 21:43
unfortunately for You mages are not as welcome in combat as they were in 7th and previous editions. Allmost all the spells that improved their fighting skills are gone (lore of beasts is an exeption. But there are still some ways to go, and you definitly should try them. I suppose that you want to use that archmage and that dragon to fight and kill with spells, yes? Than lore of beasts is your friend, just add some ward save on a magic weapon + some magic stuff, but make sure that you will have spells with numbers in BRB 2,4,5 and you are ready for some action:D
As to killing all that stuff that can kill you lore of heavens has a lot of death dealing potential and can provide you some cover, it;s underestimated IMO. But You will have to bring some bigbadasssword with you, which will be responsible for taking a fight instead of Your humble mage :)
Last, but not least is Light with it's WS10I10, protection from missile fire spells. Oh, and by the way, bironas timewarp will make You the fastest Dragon rider on the table with a potential move 40" ahead!!!
My last option is totally different, A high elf prince, ironclad, on StarDragon wearing a Wizarding Hat ;)

Olannon
05-12-2011, 22:11
First of, realize that Dragons are supporting units, not main units. As such, even with an Archmage, his role is to work with the rest of the army - not the other way around.

I'd say that Vambraces are mandatory here. 6+ re-roll and 4+ ain't that bad. I'd also go with Lore of Life as it can heal the guy and the dragon fairly well. Other than that, I believe it's up to army composition

John Wernkvist
05-12-2011, 22:55
Thank you all for the very much appreciated feedback:)

Lore of fire would be kind of boring when I already have a Dragon mage but Lore of beast is a very interesting choise for buffs. Special thx goes to "EnternalVoid" for such a detailed and thorough post. Very good tactics.

As for my opinions after reading all posts:
The lore of Life and Light are on top of my list to try out. Several of your points on using them seem very good. To use Life to keep the Dragon alive and buff the army was on my mind before I started this thread but I had forgoten about throne of vines. Also Shield of thorns could be nice to use when the Dragon charges in.

Light to boost the range to 40" and the Pha's protection spells seem very nice indeed. A 40" move is almost like teleporting:). I figure that Pha's could prove extra usefull against my friend who plays Dwarfs. Since he tends to try and make every shot count, he would think twice if it could be discarded on a 4+.

The offensive tactics using lores of Heaven or Death are kind of cool but Death seems all to risky. I guess I should try it out some time but I think Purple sun could be a setback since it affects the user on a misfire. I remember a Dragon has quite low Initiative and it would not survive. Using Heavens I could cast Comet even from behind cover but I'm afraid it might make the dragon stuck there in most of the game.

A note to "TowerGuard": I seem to recall that the only WS10 item out there is "Fencers blade" and I don't think it's possible to use, since paired weapons can't be used on mounts. Otherwise I think it's safe to say that a 4+ward and silver wand will be his equipment in every battle from now on.

Some thoughts on the lore of Beast, I think most of the spells only affect models on foot but otherwise just to make the mage S&T 4 (Dragon S&T 7) is a good idea. In the 7th edition there was a spell called Wolf hunt or something. If it's still in the rulebook then maybe it could be used to get the Dragon into CC before any shooting can be done?

bam4k
06-12-2011, 02:29
Other than the obvious Dragon Princes, what units are you taking in this list?

EnternalVoid
06-12-2011, 05:40
Light to boost the range to 40" and the Pha's protection spells seem very nice indeed. A 40" move is almost like teleporting:). I figure that Pha's could prove extra usefull against my friend who plays Dwarfs. Since he tends to try and make every shot count, he would think twice if it could be discarded on a 4+.


Remember about Light's Timewarp, it doubles the Movement Value, as in the Stat. Fly gives a Strait movement for the ability, so it does not double it. Also a Stat can not go above 10 unless it is a random stat. So sadly for most, the max move is 10", 20" if they march.

But having elf infantry or Cav able to march 20" is still pretty impressive. Even charging is nice at 10+2d6" or more with swiftstrider.

EnternalVoid
06-12-2011, 06:01
The offensive tactics using lores of Heaven or Death are kind of cool but Death seems all to risky. I guess I should try it out some time but I think Purple sun could be a setback since it affects the user on a misfire. I remember a Dragon has quite low Initiative and it would not survive. Using Heavens I could cast Comet even from behind cover but I'm afraid it might make the dragon stuck there in most of the game.

Some thoughts on the lore of Beast, I think most of the spells only affect models on foot but otherwise just to make the mage S&T 4 (Dragon S&T 7) is a good idea. In the 7th edition there was a spell called Wolf hunt or something. If it's still in the rulebook then maybe it could be used to get the Dragon into CC before any shooting can be done?

On the Purple Sun, I would have it in my arsenal but never rely on it. Yes it has a 1 in 6 chance of backfiring. but often the threat of it is enough to prompt your opponent. Park yourself in the flank of a dwarf line, make the comment on how much fun Purple Sun would be there, and set 4-6 dice off to the side. Very likely he will let other spells through to save stuff in fear of that ONE spell, at which point once it becomes time use those dice for something else if you are concerned.

Also remember that Purple Sun has some disagreements on how the rules work about when it hits a Monster and Rider. According to the Rule, the Monster and Rider are a Single Model, just it has two parts. Normally for Characterstic tests you take the best stat if you have a model with two different stats. So in this case if you are required to take a Strength test due the Net spell in Lore of Light, you use the dragon's strength. When monster with riders are hit with templates both parts get hit. But it does not say exactly how this interacts with the part of Characterstic tests where it says to use the best stat. But again as often is the problem the FAQ does not say STRAIT out say what to do. There is some pretty ugly ground here as the wording has some issues and often it comes down to what each gaming group or tournament decides on how to work it. Having the dragon and rider take their own Initiatives is the easier way in my own opinion as it avoids arguements.


Some thoughts on the lore of Beast, I think most of the spells only affect models on foot but otherwise just to make the mage S&T 4 (Dragon S&T 7) is a good idea. In the 7th edition there was a spell called Wolf hunt or something. If it's still in the rulebook then maybe it could be used to get the Dragon into CC before any shooting can be done?

Currently only one spell from the Lore of Beasts has the requirement that you be on foot, that one being the Transformation of Kadon. The one that adds to your Strength and Attack, and the one that adds to your Toughness, both can effect a character that is mounted. Currently the beast lore has 2 spells that buff characters, Amber Spear which is like a bolt Thrower or a super bolt thrower, the unit buff that gives +1 S&T, a debuff for enemies, One that turns the mage into a monster, and a low level magic missile.

Overall I think you are better at avoiding Lore of the Beast as while it has spells to buff, only the Toughness one and general +1 S&T one will add to survivability, and the +1T from the signature will not help a ton and the one that gives a character +3T will not help the dragon.

Tuttivillus
06-12-2011, 08:16
Remember about Light's Timewarp, it doubles the Movement Value, as in the Stat. Fly gives a Strait movement for the ability, so it does not double it. Also a Stat can not go above 10 unless it is a random stat. So sadly for most, the max move is 10", 20" if they march.

But having elf infantry or Cav able to march 20" is still pretty impressive. Even charging is nice at 10+2d6" or more with swiftstrider.

Yes, they can move 40" :) Read Faq, p.3. It states that you double your movement allowance and it is 10" for flyers :p And about maxstat10 it applies only for tests, so if u have to test your stat that is above 10 you treat it like it had a value of 10 for that test. It is good for You!:angel:

John Wernkvist
06-12-2011, 08:48
"bam4k": Yes my list always includes DP (either on foot or mounted) but I have converted my whole army so I have access to every single unit in the army book:). I play against Skaven, Empire, Dwarf, Night Goblins and on the rear occasion Lizardmen and other elves so I tend to make lists to counter theirs, but usually I never leave Caledor without a unit of White Lions (Dragon Guardians). What'd you have in mind?

On the other comments: I guess I remembered wrong about lore of beast and model on foot. Although it seems that the Beast spells that are usable for this build can be found in other better lores (life etc.) so I guess that rules it out for now.

Hmm, I have to bring up the purple sun vs. monster and rider question with my gaming group next time we meet. Seems very strange indeed that it should be that much of a problem. 1 in 6 chance simply means it will happen in one of the 6 turns (provided one would be mad enough to actually cast it every magic phase!!)
About the 40" move, maybe I could send GW a mail and ask? They surely could put som "Light" on the question (had to).

As always, thx for the feedback. I'm getting quite excited to try it out.

Olannon
06-12-2011, 14:20
Characteristics cannot exceed 10. Movement is a characteristic, hence a model's movement value cannot exceed 10 either. Page 3 of the BRB:

"All characteristics are rated on a scale from 0 to 10 - they cannot go below 0 or go above 10"

As Movement Allowance is a characteristic, it cannot be taken beyond 10" either. This is a fairly known fact, as Light is popular with both cavalry (who suffer the same limitation) and flyers.

As for Lore, I'm fairly certain Life is the only way to go. The lack of a proper armour save means you will be tanking a lot of small-arms fire etc. Being able to heal these up is amazing, as is having regeneration for the dragon.

What do you intend to have in the rest of your list?

John Wernkvist
07-12-2011, 00:05
You seem quite sure there Olannon. Indeed it does makes sense that a stat can't go above 10. To bad, it seemed like such a good idea.

Yes if it's anything this thread points to, it's the use of lore of Life to survive. I will try this out in my next game. Probably with a silver wand and a 4+ ward.

As I pointed out earlier, I can choose from every unit in the armybook but I always end up with a unit of 20 white lions. Another sure card is a noble on GE (usually backed up by a regular GE) and lastly a big block of spearmen to form up my core.

After that I mainly choose the rest depending on my fluff (some of my characters have specific connection with some units to match up, kind of like Caradryan and PG), my opponent, if I want to try something new or generally what mood I'm in, the weather for the day etc etc.

Tuttivillus
07-12-2011, 08:55
Characteristics cannot exceed 10. Movement is a characteristic, hence a model's movement value cannot exceed 10 either. Page 3 of the BRB:

"All characteristics are rated on a scale from 0 to 10 - they cannot go below 0 or go above 10"


Yep, sorry for that. You are right. I forgot we houseruled that spell :angel: