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Jacktheripper34
06-12-2011, 06:49
Simple question really, what is the general consensus on the core makeup of a 2400-3000 pt army? What units And what size for each?

Spiney Norman
06-12-2011, 07:26
Simple question really, what is the general consensus on the core makeup of a 2400-3000 pt army? What units And what size for each?

Commonly I use the following for games of that size
30 Skeleton warriors (f/c)
20 Skeleton archers (f/c)
10 Skeleton Horsemen (f/c)
6 Skeleton Chariots (f/c)
+ 5 Skeleton Horse archers in larger games

Sophet Drahas
06-12-2011, 08:37
Are Chariots that overpriced to run so few? I'm putting together a theme army of all chariots and was wondering.

herohammer
06-12-2011, 08:45
Are Chariots that overpriced to run so few? I'm putting together a theme army of all chariots and was wondering.

chariots aren't overpriced at all they are just posting balanced non theme lists it looks like. You can run all chariots for core if you want but wont always have ideal matchups like the dark elf chariot heavy lists. When it works though it will be dos equis

friendsofrhomb
06-12-2011, 08:47
Are Chariots that overpriced to run so few? I'm putting together a theme army of all chariots and was wondering.

Chariots are the bomb. Fullstop. If you want to get fancy, throw a tomb herald BSB with the strider banner in the unit and your chariot unit will be able to go ANYWHERE mwahahahaha! It's good for tricking people.

Seriously though, to answer the OPs question, I usually only take chariots and archers as core. I've tried skelly warriors numerour times, and they have failed EVERY.SINGLE.TIME. I also see no point what so ever in taking fast cav that cant march :shifty: although others do recommend a unit of light horsemen. Generally I find that minimum core is most effective. load up on the good stuff like TG and constructs

Spiney Norman
06-12-2011, 11:05
Are Chariots that overpriced to run so few? I'm putting together a theme army of all chariots and was wondering.

Its not that chariots are overpriced, its that all my TK core models come from two Battallions which only gave me 6, and while not [i]over[/]priced, they are expensive (and very good). My chariot unit is the most expensive single unit in the army (unless I'm bringing Settra), weighing in a little under 400 pts.

Chariots are a very good deal IMHO, but not everyone builds their list by spamming the most cost effective unit. An all chariot army would be great if you wanted to build it, I'd just rather use all the tools in the box.

Stymie Jackson
06-12-2011, 16:26
30 Archers (a few command models added)
2x3 chariots (again sprinkle a standard on each or something)
5 Horse Archers

That's minimum core of 620-650, depending on how much command you add). Very effective for a 2500 point army.

I wouldn't consider 6 chariots to be 'few'. You can run one big unit of 6, or two small units of 3, probably with a standard only in the latter case. If you have a prince or king nearby or riding dirty with the chariots, add musicians for fast reforms.

Like most people, I find chariots and archers are effective. Horse archers/light cavalry are useful but not mandatory, but cheap screeners and redirectors against Frenzied troops (who have to over-run if they wipe out an enemy on the charge and must be forced to test to avoid charging the closest enemy) allow you to get flank attacks off. This is crucial against WoC if you don't have a TG deathstar. Plus they may eat the odd war machine crew.

Skeleton infantry should be taken nekked, at minimum 40, preferable 50 (40 models die in 2 rounds to good infantry) if you like them. May get some mileage against Skaven or other T3 light armored enemies. I'd avoid spears, and never take 30 or less unless they are being taken purely as chaff units.

Pulstar
07-12-2011, 14:17
My opinion on TK core.

Chariots are great. They seem like they cost a lot, but with for all they do the are worth it. Besides the impact hits, they can shot, can take a magic banner, are fast for TK, and are your best Tomb King deliver system. The only draw back is the unit footprint. They work in units of 3, 4 (both as flankers) and 5 or 6 (as character buses)

Archers are better the combat skeletons. They are worse in hth, but frankly both stink in hth. Archers can be used to clean out the light units that can cause your army a problems. (re-directors and scouts) Combat skeletons need a prince or a king and 40-50 isn't really enough to make them dangerous. 80 to 100...maybe....

Don't over look the cavalry. They add mobility to the lease mobile army. They are good flankers, and war machines hunters. They can also work as mobile bunker for your LP (so he can keep up with you chariots.)

So my ranking
1) Chariots
2) Archers
3) Horse Archers
4) Horsemen
5) Skeleton infantry

Skywave
07-12-2011, 17:38
For big games of 2400-3000pts, Chariots in units of 6 or 8 is good. Add a character or two to taste, but I would keep the maximum number of Chariots in a unit at 8, so you can take 6 Chariots and add 2 characters, or 5 + 1, etc. Unit of 8 have a better chance of keeping their impact str at 5, they can take 5 wound without loosing it so it's great, and they hit harder with 1 more chariots in contact.

Skeleton Archers are usefull in a number of ways. You can use them as 10-man extra deployment/sacrificial units/backup bunker, or use bigger units starting at 20+. If you are serious about shooting, 2 units of 30 should do great.

Skeleton Warriors are best left at home most of the time. If you really, really want to use them, for game this big I wouldn't go under 40, and that is still too small. You would be better with one big unit of 60 than 2 units of 30 that's for sure. And for big units of 60 and the like, keep them cheap. Just adding light armour or spear is the cost of 15 extra body, body wich will serve you more than any of these upgrade ;)

Both Horsemen choice can be decent, the archer one a bit better in taking out war machine and the like. Units of 5, 6, 8 or 10 can all be good size for horse archer, depending on what you're looking for. Same for the regular Horsemen as you can use then as cheap and fast redirector (unit of 5 naked), or use a bigger units (10-12) as a flank protector, with an optional 4+ save they can be decent enough versus the enemy flankers and other softer units.

An exemple of some core that fit in a 3000pts army and lower;

6x Chariots, full command (add character or not)
30x Archers, full command (main bunker)
10x Archer (extra chaff deployment, add a banner if you fear the blood and glory scenario)
10x Archer (same as above)
6x Horse Archer (backfield harrasment, deploy 3x2 when possible for smaller footprint)

When downgrading to lower value, you can cut the 10-man archers, or bring the bigger unit down to 20 models or so if you're not too big on shooting.

Jacktheripper34
07-12-2011, 19:11
Would it be viable in a 2400 pt list to run two units of 3 chariots plus a TP in each, 18 man archer unit with both HLP and LP in it, and 8 horse bowman?

Maoriboy007
08-12-2011, 03:27
Its not that chariots are overpriced, its that all my TK core models come from two Battallions which only gave me 6, and while not [i]over[/]priced, they are expensive (and very good). My chariot unit is the most expensive single unit in the army (unless I'm bringing Settra), weighing in a little under 400 pts.

Chariots are a very good deal IMHO, but not everyone builds their list by spamming the most cost effective unit. An all chariot army would be great if you wanted to build it, I'd just rather use all the tools in the box.

The problem is at 55 points they are pretty fragile with only T4 and a 5+ save, and tack the fact that they crumble your opponant gets freepoints out of your unit on top of whatever damage he put through, unless you can decimate him on impact (doable with luck on weak units)
With that in mind you tend to be looking at small throwaway units (at 160+ points a pop) or close to a deathstar, and a fragile one at that.
They are better than some of the cjhoices available, but thats not saying much. IMO they are ok at best , but not impressive at all.

Maoriboy007
08-12-2011, 03:28
Would it be viable in a 2400 pt list to run two units of 3 chariots plus a TP in each, 18 man archer unit with both HLP and LP in it, and 8 horse bowman?Your princes wont get LOS unless they are 5+, but if your not concerned then it might be interesting.

Rosstifer
08-12-2011, 03:32
I'd take 600pts of Bowmen at 2400. That's it. Then spend the rest on the goodies, 2 units of Necroknights, god Necroknights are awesome, 2 Warsphinxes, 2 SSC (There's a theme here), Casket. That'd probably be about it.

Maoriboy007
08-12-2011, 03:47
I'd take 600pts of Bowmen at 2400. That's it. Then spend the rest on the goodies, Ha! Thats sick ;)




2 units of Necroknights, god Necroknights are awesome, Really? I've found them to be overrated myself. They are ok but not that great for the points. Sure if you overspend on them they can do great things, but thats to be expected, I find the low WS and crumbling lets them down, and never Entomb the suckers.





2 Warsphinxes, 2 SSC (There's a theme here), Casket. That'd probably be about it. Yeah warsphinxes are admittedly good. Not a bargain or anything, but probably best in the book.

Rosstifer
08-12-2011, 04:15
Really? I've found them to be overrated myself. They are ok but not that great for the points. Sure if you overspend on them they can do great things, but thats to be expected, I find the low WS and crumbling lets them down, and never Entomb the suckers.
.

Entombing is definitely a bad idea. But I've done a bit of proxy playtesting, and chatted to some people via PM, and units of 4 each with a musician seem very solid, even with sucky healing. Lots of attacks, good armour save, plenty of wounds, stomps. If they hadn't gimped healing so horribly with TK, Necroknights would be even better, but as is they are ideal for holding or grinding, or comboing with a Warsphinx to really mess up a unit. They do hit pretty hard and are decently resilient. They are possibly a tad overpriced, and once they start losing they slide rapidly downhill thanks to stupid healing, but they do something nothing else in the TK army does, and therefore you pay what you have to to get them in, just like, say, Harpies in my Beastmen.


Did I mention TK raising/healing annoys me?

Jacktheripper34
08-12-2011, 08:37
My TP won't get line of sight to what? Or does LOS mean something else?

Rosstifer
08-12-2011, 08:39
Look Out Sir.

Stymie Jackson
08-12-2011, 20:39
Did I mention TK raising/healing annoys me?

Notice a lot of complaining about healing. Not going to disagree (1 wound back on a unit of Ushabti=fail Phil Kelly!) but I'd like to point out that Chariots and TG really do benefit from healing.

2-4 models back in an archer unit? Not a big deal.
A full chariot back (average is 3 wounds healed, right?). That's kind of a big deal.

At 13 points a pop, TG also benefit from any and all healing. I'm a big fan of the SotUL banner. Even if it melts itself with an IF (which for some reason happens way to often) or only is used one, it'll get it's points back on TG.

I think it was for balance reasons as if you could heal constructs too easily the bigger ones would be close to unstoppable (it is uncommon for a single cannon shot to pop a giant or sphynx in one shot) but it really hurts ushabti, stalkers and knights. Dang.

Biff Gunhed
08-12-2011, 21:29
What about in smaller games, like 1000-1200? Just archers? Is a single unit of 6 Chariots too many eggs in one basket?

Crovax20
08-12-2011, 22:23
I'm not sure but I believe the last time I played 1250 points I had 3 necro knights, a sphinx, a level 3 hierophant, 20 archers, 30 warriors with light armour, 3 chariots and a tomb prince. At lower points the warriors aren't too bad as your prince will be with them and give them ws5, and there aren't too many super killy units that will mince them

Biff Gunhed
09-12-2011, 01:12
Yeah, I was planning (if/when I start collecting Tomb Kings) to have a horde of 40 or 50 Warriors joined by a Prince and a Necrotect. WS5 Hatred Skellies sounds fun :) then I'd have around 16 Archers as a Heirophant bunker. This is all in 1200 points.

But perhaps a unit of Chariots would perform better?

selone
09-12-2011, 02:17
I would love Skelly Warriors to work as a half-decent combat unit and I haven't quite given up on them but really they are there to hold up your opponent, nothing more.
I like archers (who doesn't) and chariots or skelly horsemen.
For a 1600 army I took 40 Bowmen with Full Command and 10 horsemen (with a musician to make up the 400).

cool-kid-on-the-block
09-12-2011, 10:26
I think it was for balance reasons as if you could heal constructs too easily the bigger ones would be close to unstoppable (it is uncommon for a single cannon shot to pop a giant or sphynx in one shot) but it really hurts ushabti, stalkers and knights. Dang.

this is solved to some extent in the CV book making different things harder or easier to raise back.

maybe make the monsters in the book have a rule that only lets them regain 1 wound a turn, cavalry and chariots as many as they want bit its D3 per spell and infantry as many as they want but D6 or something similar.

Pulstar
09-12-2011, 12:32
The problem is at 55 points they are pretty fragile with only T4 and a 5+ save, and tack the fact that they crumble your opponant gets freepoints out of your unit on top of whatever damage he put through, unless you can decimate him on impact (doable with luck on weak units)
With that in mind you tend to be looking at small throwaway units (at 160+ points a pop) or close to a deathstar, and a fragile one at that.
They are better than some of the cjhoices available, but thats not saying much. IMO they are ok at best , but not impressive at all.

Yes they are fragile, but they are also the unit that gets the most out of buff's/heals.

Healing back 3 wounds on a unit of skeletons gets you back 12 points of models. Healing 3 wounds back on a unit of chariot nets you back a 55 point model.

A three chariot unit hit with smiting gains 6 bow shots and 12 attacks.

The have cheap command (per model) and can take a magic banner.

They can bus a king and get a great WS.

They can do everything....

-Totenkopf-
04-01-2012, 00:17
At 1200ish pts, off hand, I run 8 chariots, 2 warsphinx with fiery breath, lvl3, sometimes 10 archers to accompany him and depending on magic items, I squeeze in a casket or a BG depending on the opp.. I do well against my usual opponents of WoC, Daemons, Dark elves and Ogres... I find I struggle against my Woc opponent as he is Cav heavy, so it nulifies my stomp attacks, but If I get the killing blow spell, it's pretty easy to win...

Archon Deloth Vyrr
04-01-2012, 00:58
Notice a lot of complaining about healing. Not going to disagree (1 wound back on a unit of Ushabti=fail Phil Kelly!)

Considering Kelly had nothing to do with the TK book, I think you mean fail Cruddace

Spiney Norman
05-01-2012, 16:55
The problem is at 55 points they are pretty fragile with only T4 and a 5+ save, and tack the fact that they crumble your opponant gets freepoints out of your unit on top of whatever damage he put through, unless you can decimate him on impact (doable with luck on weak units)
With that in mind you tend to be looking at small throwaway units (at 160+ points a pop) or close to a deathstar, and a fragile one at that.
They are better than some of the cjhoices available, but thats not saying much. IMO they are ok at best , but not impressive at all.

I've never had a chariot unit crumble in combat, infact I've never had my chariot unit lose a combat. 8 chariots or 7 with a character is generally the best way to field them, not much can muster a reply to 4d6 str 5 impact hits followed up by the crews attacks, add a king to the mix, bringing the unit up to ws6 and you've got a winning unit. The key is to pick your target, there aren't many things that can stand up to that charge, chosen stars are one so avoid them along with any other ultra resilient hitty unit.

skirder
05-01-2012, 17:50
it really depends on how you play. I tend to take 2 units of chariots to charge the flank of whatever reaches my lines... archers fill up half the core, some horse archers for redirecting/war machine hunting, and some chariots. when they get into my lines, the suddenly get 3-4 d6 impact hits to deal with.

Lebowski
05-01-2012, 18:16
The problem is at 55 points they are pretty fragile with only T4 and a 5+ save, and tack the fact that they crumble your opponant gets freepoints out of your unit on top of whatever damage he put through, unless you can decimate him on impact (doable with luck on weak units)
With that in mind you tend to be looking at small throwaway units (at 160+ points a pop) or close to a deathstar, and a fragile one at that.
They are better than some of the cjhoices available, but thats not saying much. IMO they are ok at best , but not impressive at all.

you have got to be kidding me. they really are a pretty good deal for the points. compare even the cheap Goblin Wolf chariots for cost and effectiveness.

moeep
05-01-2012, 18:30
The problem is at 55 points they are pretty fragile with only T4 and a 5+ save, and tack the fact that they crumble your opponant gets freepoints out of your unit on top of whatever damage he put through, unless you can decimate him on impact (doable with luck on weak units)
With that in mind you tend to be looking at small throwaway units (at 160+ points a pop) or close to a deathstar, and a fragile one at that.
They are better than some of the cjhoices available, but thats not saying much. IMO they are ok at best , but not impressive at all.

o.0 calling u what i think of u would be against the rules so just think what i think of your oppinion^^

They are the best choice to get ur core to 25% and over it ....
in my fun list for 2500k i field 2units of 9 chariots each....
with an obligatory prince or king they are just awesome^^
ever saw a unit of 30 white lion break in the turn of charge ?
9 chariots and a decent prince or king will do the job ;P( they wont realy break from combat, anhilated would be a more fitting term 28dead lions on average with no magical or other support while u are only loosing about 3 chariots... just little magic
5th or third spell and even those stubborn lions will be done... actualy killing 2-5 before you charge them would also suffice)

but i only name it a fun list since im not allowed to use more then 12 charriots (excluding charackters) in my competitive army
(combat 8.0 slaped my face-.-)
i do realy like them since they can basicly get every unit to break in 1 freaking turn.

other choices are also nice 45 warriors with a King will tarpit every enemy and because of the cheap price u can buy a hell of supporting units..
bowmen do their job as they carry my wizards savely and doing some needle work ;P
and our cav ist just awesome to annoy the enemy ^^

so how you fill your core should be suited to your playing style
Chariot based rush armies will put a lot of points in here
while balanced armies(such which take 45warriors with a king) will rather spend their points on speical and rare units

Jericho
05-01-2012, 19:18
Interesting to see that some folks share my curiosity about a true Legion-based army... that was the keyword during the construction of the book after all.

"50 Slaves? You call that a horde?!"

*deploys 100 nekkid warriors w/ Prince* :evilgrin:

Small units of TK infantry just seem like a minor speedbump in 8th with so many hard hitting troops out there... my GW dwarfs are just insane. I almost feel bad using them and there are tons of rumors saying they should be getting cheaper in the future. Madness, I say.

As for chariots, I definitely agree that they interact beautifully with magic (ie. getting 12-20 bonus attacks from Smiting). They heal amazingly fast, and if you want you can use champions as a ridiculous throwaway they get to grow back immediately every time you cast a spell on them. Either keep them cheap and disposable, or make them big enough to survive any damage and be around for a round of aoe healing spam to bring them back up to strength.

Like any Undead, they can crumble quick if they get hit hard so make your guys big enough to soak a round of attacks and you'll be pretty happy you did.