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Jack of Blades
09-12-2011, 11:19
I apologise in advance for the inefficient use of text in this large post...



He will be one of the characters in the fluff I hope I'll write some day. I'll add more details later but for now, I need a believable way to have him retain his soul for his own while still being a daemon prince, thus affording him complete independence (he hopes) in theory... I'm thinking of several (rather non-distinct) options. The aim is to have him contain it in his mask like a phylactery (a particularily observant one may draw a link between this and my avatar ;)).

1) When his blasphemy begins, before he becomes a daemon prince, instead of using his own he trades someone else's soul or otherwise does something important, in exchange he is granted his soul as the gods have received something sweeter in return.

2) He makes a bargain after ascending that in order to receive his soul he must do something in return. As with the first option, this can involve a replacement soul.

3) He is denied but refuses to accept this. As a result the gods take away their favour, barely leaving him a daemon prince anymore. But his weak nature means he can afford to manifest further into the mortal realm to escape the daemons that would devour him otherwise. Over time he grows stronger by nourishing himself back on souls until he is strong enough to face the other daemons of the Warp. No longer bound by the gods, he hunts whatever daemons he pleases to consume them and thus sustain himself, taking perverse pleasure in destroying Chaos and the fear his reputation creates in other daemons.


He genuinely likes the power that being such a horrible creature gives him (it's what he turned to Chaos for in the first place) but he simply isn't evil enough to abuse it on helpless, good-natured innocents. I also don't want him to be a straight out hero - he will do rather nasty things for his own amusement, but these will involve playing with and manipulating victims rather than outright torturing or killing them (his sanity coming into play again), and the end of the manipulation may turn out to be good - unless something corrupts that end...

-

The problem here is that I don't know how to make a plot out of this. I want him to oppose the Chaos gods but not directly, I'd like for it to be through a mortal champion that both he and he gods try to manipulate. Perhaps he raises the champion under the guise of regaining the gods' favour? but how could the champion possibly undermine the gods' plans for the world? I want him to hold on to what remains of his humanity and not really be evil, but not be a lame ''woe is me, I'm such a tragic hero''-character either. I more or less want him to be an anti-villain.

I'm inspired by the plot of the Legacy of Kain series. It has both inspiring characters and inspired me about the plot I want to create. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GambitPileup) If I had to draw a paralell to who in the series the daemon prince would be most similar to it would be Raziel and Mortanius. I more or less want him to be a type 3-4 anti-villain (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiVillain) doing what's necessarily evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NecessarilyEvil) with a dose of enjoying the fear and suffering of other evil beings - so again not a complete hero.

This is the first in a series of threads about this that will likely appear. I don't have time to elaborate further on this right now. If you want to submit your own option instead of making one of mine work I would be most pleased. I had many decent suggestions and one that I decided to go with for the mortal champion that will be in the story in my last thread so I hope this will turn out even more productive!

BigbyWolf
09-12-2011, 11:55
I'm not sure this is the best pace for this- it's not really Warhammer background and might be suited more to the GW Stories section. It might get better feedback from a general story point of view, as opposed to a fluff perspective (which can often get debated quite heatedly :p).

That being said, my first impression is that you want a "good guy" chaos daemon, who hates chaos and wants to hold onto his humanity, but not be a tragic figure. Unfortunately, that's pretty much how he comes across. Belakor is a good example of a rogue daemon prince. Motivated by jealousy and evil plans above all things. I think that (vindictive revenge seeking as opposed to redemptive revenge seeking) would be a lot more interesting, and far more suited to the Warhammer world, which is quite a bitter, twisted and "hopeless" place.

Jack of Blades
09-12-2011, 13:05
Oh yeah, if only a moderator could move it there ;)

I guess he'll have to be tragic then. Sort of. The contrast to Be'lakor is a good example, where Be'lakor has turned into a completely evil, mad/insane creature this guy could be a more sane person. But with the knowledge of just how powerful Chaos is, he also knows how futile it is to fight it. To be honest I think I've got this backwards. I might just need a reason for him turning to Chaos in the first place and then, when he's gotten to where he wants, he may look back and wonder if it was really for the best and then I can take it from there.

He won't be the main character either.

BigbyWolf
09-12-2011, 13:31
Would he have been undivided as soon as he turned, or chosen a patron and then rejected it and turned to undivided? If he chose a patron it certainly makes it easier to chose a reason, if not, then it can be a little tricky, but the usual suspects are power, fame and strength.

Perhaps think of it this way- what would you sell your soul for?

t-tauri
09-12-2011, 14:35
Moved to stories and art.

Son of Sanguinius
09-12-2011, 17:26
Dare I suggest that you make this the warhammer fantasy precursor to the entity that becomes Malal/Malice? Allow my stream of consciousness free reign for a moment.

If I were doing a character like the one you've described, I'd create what is essentially a dark Sigmar. A mortal becomes absurdly powerful in the favor of Chaos and stands on the brink of demonhood, but fears the enslavement that brings. The Chaos Gods are upset as they each had grand plans for this champion, and so they strip him of much of his power and cast him out to die among the Northern tribes as a shamed loner. He barely survives utilizing the cunning that earned him so much favor, facing down monsters, champions seeking favor, and his own intense withdrawals after having tasted so much magical power.

With a fearsome dedication to cold, focused vengeance (no one mention Klingons, please), the character becomes a true dark angel. He consumes the souls of defeated foes and returns a great deal of the power he lost, then utilizes that power to counter the efforts of the minions of Chaos wherever he can. He slays potential Everchosen, demons, and whatnot, all the while staying a step ahead of the Gods and their efforts to kill him. He is chased by legends such as Wulfrik and Kharnak and knows no safehaven as all the world, even the most reviled abominations of Chaos, hates him.

Over time, he recruits followers to his side and, because of his power and seeming invincibility, they begin to worship him. His name is spoken across the world by the tribes and cults of Chaos as a byword for treachery, arrogance, and dishonor, and by the "civilized" folk as a byword for ruthlessness and cold-blooded violence. Empires said to be under his control spring up north of Cathay, in the Badlands, in Araby and elsewhere, and countless other tribes claim to march with his favor. He himself disappears into myth and legend, and despite his mortal origins and the claims of death by many Khornate champions, those who invoke his name in an effort to see Chaos destroyed are rewarded with terrible power.

His followers swear he still walks the world, traveling into dark forests to slay Ghorgons, combing the depths of the oceans for Leviathan eyes, or venting his fury on the "civilized" peoples for not maintaining the dedication to see Chaos thwarted and fueling it as much as fighting it. All in all, his presence, whether literal or figurative, is one the Ruinous Powers would love to see expunged.

Is this ANYTHING like what you were going for or am I way off base? :)

Exitas-Acta-Probat
09-12-2011, 18:45
^ that sir. is some good fluff - id run with that if i were you :d

The Devourer
09-12-2011, 21:25
I'd go with something like what Son of Sanguinius suggested. Having a daemon prince with a conscience just doesn't seem right. He would have had to do some really evil things to be considered as a daemon prince so suddenly starting to care seems unrealistic. However it isn't that hard to believe that a champion on the brink of daemonhood realises that working for chaos is against his goals and so turns at the last minute. He would have the same motivation as other chaos followers, desire for power and survival, but it would be aimed in another direction.

He doesn't truely hate chaos but he knows that the gods will never let him live so everything he does to weaken chaos earns him a longer life. This allows him to be ruthless but generally on the good side. He geniunly wants to stop chaos but he isn't above sacrificing other to do it.

Jack of Blades
10-12-2011, 00:29
Would he have been undivided as soon as he turned, or chosen a patron and then rejected it and turned to undivided? If he chose a patron it certainly makes it easier to chose a reason, if not, then it can be a little tricky, but the usual suspects are power, fame and strength.

Perhaps think of it this way- what would you sell your soul for?

He would be undivided as soon as he turned, making it trickier :p

Me, putting myself into the Warhammer world, I'd sell it for everlasting power and immortality - the same motivation as any minion of Chaos. Power and immortality that I can use to eventually get my soul back, or so I'd hope...


Dare I suggest that you make this the warhammer fantasy precursor to the entity that becomes Malal/Malice? Allow my stream of consciousness free reign for a moment.

If I were doing a character like the one you've described, I'd create what is essentially a dark Sigmar. A mortal becomes absurdly powerful in the favor of Chaos and stands on the brink of demonhood, but fears the enslavement that brings. The Chaos Gods are upset as they each had grand plans for this champion, and so they strip him of much of his power and cast him out to die among the Northern tribes as a shamed loner. He barely survives utilizing the cunning that earned him so much favor, facing down monsters, champions seeking favor, and his own intense withdrawals after having tasted so much magical power.

With a fearsome dedication to cold, focused vengeance (no one mention Klingons, please), the character becomes a true dark angel. He consumes the souls of defeated foes and returns a great deal of the power he lost, then utilizes that power to counter the efforts of the minions of Chaos wherever he can. He slays potential Everchosen, demons, and whatnot, all the while staying a step ahead of the Gods and their efforts to kill him. He is chased by legends such as Wulfrik and Kharnak and knows no safehaven as all the world, even the most reviled abominations of Chaos, hates him.

Over time, he recruits followers to his side and, because of his power and seeming invincibility, they begin to worship him. His name is spoken across the world by the tribes and cults of Chaos as a byword for treachery, arrogance, and dishonor, and by the "civilized" folk as a byword for ruthlessness and cold-blooded violence. Empires said to be under his control spring up north of Cathay, in the Badlands, in Araby and elsewhere, and countless other tribes claim to march with his favor. He himself disappears into myth and legend, and despite his mortal origins and the claims of death by many Khornate champions, those who invoke his name in an effort to see Chaos destroyed are rewarded with terrible power.

His followers swear he still walks the world, traveling into dark forests to slay Ghorgons, combing the depths of the oceans for Leviathan eyes, or venting his fury on the "civilized" peoples for not maintaining the dedication to see Chaos thwarted and fueling it as much as fighting it. All in all, his presence, whether literal or figurative, is one the Ruinous Powers would love to see expunged.

Is this ANYTHING like what you were going for or am I way off base? :)

Ahh! just the kind of person I was hoping would respond :D

''If I were doing a character like the one you've described, I'd create what is essentially a dark Sigmar'' haha :p the more I think about the meaning of that, the more I like it. Some sort of Sigmar Malal sounds right in the direction I was looking to go in. However he'll be blessed with daemonhood before he gets stripped of his power as this is key to the rest of the story and him actually becoming immortal but he'll still scrounge out a living and a return in the Chaos Wastes and surrounding regions as you wrote.

This part in particular
He slays potential Everchosen, demons, and whatnot, all the while staying a step ahead of the Gods and their efforts to kill him. is... exactly what I had in mind :D

I don't intend for him to be quite so powerful as controlling multiple empires :p and having a cult centered around him puts him too center stage, like an assassin in charge of an army. The more of a half-mythic terror he is the better - again, I reference the Hylden in LoK (don't know if you're familiar with them though but I think the Hylden are excellent antagonists because they are/were actually right, and they are also this old half-mythic terror). If there was a way to make that cult worship a horrible abomination instead that serves both as a figurehead and as what controls the cult (hard to tie in, I know) - which is something I'm looking to create anyway - then there we go (inspired by LoK's Elder God).

The rest of it is good too. You have inspired me greatly, I hope you have something more to add now or in the future! :D




I'd go with something like what Son of Sanguinius suggested. Having a daemon prince with a conscience just doesn't seem right. He would have had to do some really evil things to be considered as a daemon prince so suddenly starting to care seems unrealistic. However it isn't that hard to believe that a champion on the brink of daemonhood realises that working for chaos is against his goals and so turns at the last minute. He would have the same motivation as other chaos followers, desire for power and survival, but it would be aimed in another direction.

He doesn't truely hate chaos but he knows that the gods will never let him live so everything he does to weaken chaos earns him a longer life. This allows him to be ruthless but generally on the good side. He geniunly wants to stop chaos but he isn't above sacrificing other to do it.

Yes, he wouldn't just be a nice guy who happens to be a daemon prince. While his mind would mostly be sane he'd still only be as sane as you could be after doing what it takes to become a daemon prince etc.

Son of Sanguinius
10-12-2011, 02:12
Ahh! just the kind of person I was hoping would respond :D

Don't be inviting crazy people into your thought processes. :D



''If I were doing a character like the one you've described, I'd create what is essentially a dark Sigmar'' haha :p the more I think about the meaning of that, the more I like it. Some sort of Sigmar Malal sounds right in the direction I was looking to go in. However he'll be blessed with daemonhood before he gets stripped of his power as this is key to the rest of the story and him actually becoming immortal but he'll still scrounge out a living and a return in the Chaos Wastes and surrounding regions as you wrote.

See, the problem I have with actually achieving demonhood is that it means enslavement. Granted, an enslavement with supernatural powers and immortality, but still enslavement. It becomes much more difficult to logically justify a demon rebelling against the Ruinous Powers and not getting trammeled into obedience like Be'lakor. Moreover, if you're basing this character off of a cool demon prince model or something, you can still have a being who has grown large and extremely powerful off of the souls of the fallen so that, especially in game terms, he can function as a demon prince.

Now, all that said, I have some ideas about a demon prince who rebels in a slightly more...effective...fashion than Be'lakor.



This part in particular is... exactly what I had in mind :D

Good good. His exploits can be justified against almost any race considering the interconnectedness of the various pantheons of Gods, including the Chaos powers. To the point where seemingly random acts of violence against Skaven, Bretonnia, or the Ogre Kingdoms could be the result of divinations that determine such against to be a setback for the aims of prominent Chaos servants.



I don't intend for him to be quite so powerful as controlling multiple empires :p and having a cult centered around him puts him too center stage, like an assassin in charge of an army. The more of a half-mythic terror he is the better - again, I reference the Hylden in LoK (don't know if you're familiar with them though but I think the Hylden are excellent antagonists because they are/were actually right, and they are also this old half-mythic terror). If there was a way to make that cult worship a horrible abomination instead that serves both as a figurehead and as what controls the cult (hard to tie in, I know) - which is something I'm looking to create anyway - then there we go (inspired by LoK's Elder God).

I didn't mean for him to control the empires, merely that as he becomes more powerful and more of a legend, empires and tribes across the world invoke his name, either in direct worship or in lip service. An Arabyan caravan could consider him a fearsome djinn unwanted in heaven or hell and who stalks the world venting his rage. An Imperial warrior priest could see him as a demon expelled from the service of Chaos who fights to return to the favor of the Gods. The outcasts of a Hung tribe could whisper about him as a holy avenger who stalks the wastes, declaims the gods, and defeats their challenges to him. All in all, I really like your idea that he becomes more idea than actually warrior, which is why I thought of Sigmar.



The rest of it is good too. You have inspired me greatly, I hope you have something more to add now or in the future! :D

I have plenty more ideas, including one for a central plot concerning him, but some questions too. I'd be happy to lay any of them out, so just let me know if there is a specific aspect of motivation or character that you'd like me to speculate or theorize about.

Jack of Blades
10-12-2011, 02:30
Don't be inviting crazy people into your thought processes. :D

Sanity is for the weak :evilgrin:


See, the problem I have with actually achieving demonhood is that it means enslavement. Granted, an enslavement with supernatural powers and immortality, but still enslavement. It becomes much more difficult to logically justify a demon rebelling against the Ruinous Powers and not getting trammeled into obedience like Be'lakor. Moreover, if you're basing this character off of a cool demon prince model or something, you can still have a being who has grown large and extremely powerful off of the souls of the fallen so that, especially in game terms, he can function as a demon prince.

Now, all that said, I have some ideas about a demon prince who rebels in a slightly more...effective...fashion than Be'lakor.

You know, I would prefer for him not to become a daemon prince. Partly because it makes sense that way and partly because it's cooler to just be a really powerful creature, like Nagash. The question is how is he immortal? but that can be answered by feeding on souls and preferably daemons. I like this :evilgrin:


Good good. His exploits can be justified against almost any race considering the interconnectedness of the various pantheons of Gods, including the Chaos powers. To the point where seemingly random acts of violence against Skaven, Bretonnia, or the Ogre Kingdoms could be the result of divinations that determine such against to be a setback for the aims of prominent Chaos servants.

He won't have much qualm about exploiting groups to achieve his aims either. He'll even enjoy it in the case of foul creatures like the Skaven. Living a life like his will remove a moral inhibition or two... and in the case of ''good'' factions as you said earlier they'll still want to destroy him. It's right where I want him to be.


I didn't mean for him to control the empires, merely that as he becomes more powerful and more of a legend, empires and tribes across the world invoke his name, either in direct worship or in lip service. An Arabyan caravan could consider him a fearsome djinn unwanted in heaven or hell and who stalks the world venting his rage. An Imperial warrior priest could see him as a demon expelled from the service of Chaos who fights to return to the favor of the Gods. The outcasts of a Hung tribe could whisper about him as a holy avenger who stalks the wastes, declaims the gods, and defeats their challenges to him. All in all, I really like your idea that he becomes more idea than actually warrior, which is why I thought of Sigmar.

That sounds much, much better. It in fact sounds really good. It's almost regrettable that I can't offer more than agreement here but that's what I'm going to do.


I have plenty more ideas, including one for a central plot concerning him, but some questions too. I'd be happy to lay any of them out, so just let me know if there is a specific aspect of motivation or character that you'd like me to speculate or theorize about.

I like questions, the more asked the better. I'll get to the plot and the motivations of the charater after I've answered them :)

Son of Sanguinius
10-12-2011, 02:41
1. What's his name?

2. You mention other characters. Who are these people?

3. What does he look like in your mind?

Jack of Blades
10-12-2011, 03:50
1. I haven't finalised one yet. There are important implications involved... do you pick the name he was born with? do you pick a more demonic name, meaning he had to give it to himself or something for some reason (ie. why would he do that? perhaps it's because he has become a different being)? or do you simply make him known by title to everyone but himself, like daemons do, and if so what will he refer to himself by? I'm leaning toward option #2 right now. I'm thinking of combining different words to make a meaningful name.

2. Right now there's:

- The daemon creature, this character. Supposed to be an important recurring character but not a main character in the sense that the plot doesn't revolve around him but he's still a vital part of it.
- This character (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5790037&postcount=27) who I intend to be the main character of the story because he can be manipulated from all sorts of directions, making him a good focal point. He is there more to showcase the complex plots of the story, like a sightseeing bus, than for the story to be only about him personally - ie. the setting itself is more important than the main character even if he is also a focus... if that makes sense. I think you understand.

These are all the characters I have envisioned motives and roles for as of yet. My guideline for new characters is that I want most of them to have a role in said gambit pileup, so that I can create a web of plots around the main character(s) that interconnects it all. Hope I was clear enough :p

3. Transform this (http://i35.tinypic.com/64m62v.png) into a daemon prince's physique, remove the metal chestpiece and the two other masks, remove the clothing from the arms so that only ragged remains sticks out of his gauntlets and down from the shoulders and you have what I envision. Ancient equipment, worn but everlasting. His skin is dark grey and his eyes have turned orange with black pupils. The clothing gives the impression of him being more than just a monster: thanks to what he wears there's still something subtly but disturbingly humanoid about him - he doesn't come off as ''feral'' as daemons normally seem. You are not dealing with either a human or a daemon but something else, something terrible, twisted and powerful that you can't identify...

Will be interesting to see what you were stirring that needed these questions answered. I was pleasantly surprised that you already had ideas with the vague information you have. I guess that's the plus side of crazy thought processes :p

Son of Sanguinius
10-12-2011, 05:03
1. I haven't finalised one yet. There are important implications involved... do you pick the name he was born with? do you pick a more demonic name, meaning he had to give it to himself or something for some reason (ie. why would he do that? perhaps it's because he has become a different being)? or do you simply make him known by title to everyone but himself, like daemons do, and if so what will he refer to himself by? I'm leaning toward option #2 right now. I'm thinking of combining different words to make a meaningful name.

I'd probably go with a combination. He ascends in power and even gets the beginnings of a demonic name that he identifies, but as he steps back from the edge, his identity is stripped from him and he has to adopt something new.


- This character (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5790037&postcount=27) who I intend to be the main character of the story because he can be manipulated from all sorts of directions, making him a good focal point. He is there more to showcase the complex plots of the story, like a sightseeing bus, than for the story to be only about him personally - ie. the setting itself is more important than the main character even if he is also a focus... if that makes sense. I think you understand.

These are all the characters I have envisioned motives and roles for as of yet. My guideline for new characters is that I want most of them to have a role in said gambit pileup, so that I can create a web of plots around the main character(s) that interconnects it all. Hope I was clear enough :p

Plenty clear. The main character is more of a witness to the various stories taking place, right?



3. Transform this (http://i35.tinypic.com/64m62v.png) into a daemon prince's physique, remove the metal chestpiece and the two other masks, remove the clothing from the arms so that only ragged remains sticks out of his gauntlets and down from the shoulders and you have what I envision. Ancient equipment, worn but everlasting. His skin is dark grey and his eyes have turned orange with black pupils. The clothing gives the impression of him being more than just a monster: thanks to what he wears there's still something subtly but disturbingly humanoid about him - he doesn't come off as ''feral'' as daemons normally seem. You are not dealing with either a human or a daemon but something else, something terrible, twisted and powerful that you can't identify...

Something like this? (http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/10400000/War-darksiders-10468476-1024-1491.jpg)


Will be interesting to see what you were stirring that needed these questions answered. I was pleasantly surprised that you already had ideas with the vague information you have. I guess that's the plus side of crazy thought processes :p

What I'm thinking is that the main character could begin a full psychological immersion in Chaos and explores its extremes, and your demon prince represents the element of Chaos that is always self-defeating and self-hating. Your demon prince represents Chaos's version of a necessary evil that keeps the cycle of Chaos in motion, which could, to an extent, explain why the Chaos Gods have such trouble killing him. Subconsciously, they know he fills an important balancing niche.

Jack of Blades
10-12-2011, 16:47
I'd probably go with a combination. He ascends in power and even gets the beginnings of a demonic name that he identifies, but as he steps back from the edge, his identity is stripped from him and he has to adopt something new.

And what I have in mind for him adopt is something like Archimonde/Mannoroth/Tichondrius. I'll get to work on it, if you have any suggestions feel free to share.


Plenty clear. The main character is more of a witness to the various stories taking place, right?

Yep. He gets caught up in an unfolding series of events that he can't back out of, assailed from multiple parties with demands, suggestions and manipulations. These parties don't need to be in direct combat with eachother from the beginning even if their goals are conflicting. Preferably it should be a case of whatever he does serving some party - if he tries to combat some manipulator he'll walk right into the trap of another one, setting in motion their plans... which gives opportunity for another, and so on. All the while he's simply trying to carve a path for himself and achieve his ambitions. It will be a complex plot but very rewarding I think.

His motives will evolve over time as he discovers more, at the beginning I plan to have him be straightforward in achieving power similarily to most rising Chaos champions. He won't be properly suspecting or understanding what he's getting into it's too late.

One of these parties will of course be the Chaos Gods who don't care about him, they only use him to bring more ruin and destruction to the world, a second will be the daemon prince who could seem to be a benefactor but really just wants to use Chaos's own tool against it, partly out of the simple grim satisfaction he gets out of defying the Gods and I want a third to be a gargantuan abomination buried in the earth with its tendrils and itself literally extending outward from its main chamber along with its influence, too large for a mere human to kill, whos motivation I haven't thought out properly yet but it should involve a facade of righteousness. I want there to be at least four factions but haven't thought of a fourth one yet.

Now I will have to begin developing the plot so there's something to work with I suppose. Hmm...


Something like this? (http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/10400000/War-darksiders-10468476-1024-1491.jpg)

That's surprisingly (I guess seeing that in your head must be popular) spot on. Is that character based on Jack of Blades or is it a coincidence?


What I'm thinking is that the main character could begin a full psychological immersion in Chaos and explores its extremes, and your demon prince represents the element of Chaos that is always self-defeating and self-hating. Your demon prince represents Chaos's version of a necessary evil that keeps the cycle of Chaos in motion, which could, to an extent, explain why the Chaos Gods have such trouble killing him. Subconsciously, they know he fills an important balancing niche.

What do you mean by a full psychological immersion that explores Chaos's extremes? :)

That you gave a reason for why for the Chaos Gods having such trouble killing him is very good, it's just the kind of ''shadow in the warp/Malal''-based thing I want for this character. Perhaps the Gods are even somewhat pleased with his role as it means that rather than extinguishing the world's life it will forever be submerged under the shadow of Chaos... yet another twist and turn.



On a sidenote... talking about all of this is so very inspiring. I can't wait to set the events in motion :evilgrin:

Son of Sanguinius
10-12-2011, 20:36
And what I have in mind for him adopt is something like Archimonde/Mannoroth/Tichondrius. I'll get to work on it, if you have any suggestions feel free to share.

Someone's played warcraft, I see. ;)

In my mind, he has more of a gothic feel, so I'd like to recommend an angelic or demonic name from judeo-christian traditions, like Azrael, Uriel, Raphael, etc. I'm going to look for a less common one.



Yep. He gets caught up in an unfolding series of events that he can't back out of, assailed from multiple parties with demands, suggestions and manipulations. These parties don't need to be in direct combat with eachother from the beginning even if their goals are conflicting. Preferably it should be a case of whatever he does serving some party - if he tries to combat some manipulator he'll walk right into the trap of another one, setting in motion their plans... which gives opportunity for another, and so on. All the while he's simply trying to carve a path for himself and achieve his ambitions. It will be a complex plot but very rewarding I think.

Makes sense. I like the idea of creating a situation where the most survivable situation is balanced between the myriad threats around him.



His motives will evolve over time as he discovers more, at the beginning I plan to have him be straightforward in achieving power similarily to most rising Chaos champions. He won't be properly suspecting or understanding what he's getting into it's too late.

You could also explore his personal reflections on how his original motivations get lost in or strengthened by the tide of Chaos power. Kind of widening and contracting the viewpoints to give the dramatic presence of personal perspective and the gravitas of a huge scale.



One of these parties will of course be the Chaos Gods who don't care about him, they only use him to bring more ruin and destruction to the world, a second will be the daemon prince who could seem to be a benefactor but really just wants to use Chaos's own tool against it, partly out of the simple grim satisfaction he gets out of defying the Gods and I want a third to be a gargantuan abomination buried in the earth with its tendrils and itself literally extending outward from its main chamber along with its influence, too large for a mere human to kill, whos motivation I haven't thought out properly yet but it should involve a facade of righteousness. I want there to be at least four factions but haven't thought of a fourth one yet.

Now I will have to begin developing the plot so there's something to work with I suppose. Hmm...

That fourth should depend on the setting. If the story is set in the north, it could be a scheming Tzeentchian demon who attempts to pull everyone's strings. If in the badlands, you could have a Chaos Dwarf sorcerer or Black Orc Warboss in search of slaves. Perhaps an Ogre Maneater or Hunter seeking trials and fame?



That's surprisingly (I guess seeing that in your head must be popular) spot on. Is that character based on Jack of Blades or is it a coincidence?

That is a fan art of War from the Darksiders series. Having never played the Legacy of Kain series, that was the first thing my mind went to when you showed me the picture.



What do you mean by a full psychological immersion that explores Chaos's extremes? :)

I always envision the realm of magic as a place where concept and reality are practically the same thing. As your character interacts with the power of Chaos and the emotional extremes it brings, you have an opportunity to present more depth than "KHORNE WANT SKULLS", for example. Not all rage need be expressed by a drooling rush to the enemy battlelines.



That you gave a reason for why for the Chaos Gods having such trouble killing him is very good, it's just the kind of ''shadow in the warp/Malal''-based thing I want for this character. Perhaps the Gods are even somewhat pleased with his role as it means that rather than extinguishing the world's life it will forever be submerged under the shadow of Chaos... yet another twist and turn

Yeah. It's a dynamic of two hated foes that have never really achieve victory over one another and who have been fighting so long that their lives become dependent on the struggle continuing, not ending.

Jack of Blades
22-12-2011, 22:11
Someone's played warcraft, I see. ;)

Yes, Tichondrius and Doomguard (daemon prince and k'daai destroyers ;)) are what inspired me to start my WoC in the first place apart from the pull of raw magical power :evilgrin:


In my mind, he has more of a gothic feel, so I'd like to recommend an angelic or demonic name from judeo-christian traditions, like Azrael, Uriel, Raphael, etc. I'm going to look for a less common one.

I like all of those names that end in ''iel''. It just sounds good, Azrael, Uriel, Raziel... I searched myself but couldn't find anything that interested me without being overused (I haven't searched far though). Really though, just a play on the name Raziel would be enough, Diablo's Duriel springing to mind (just an example, it's missing that delicious s or z which is what makes Raziel so good).


You could also explore his personal reflections on how his original motivations get lost in or strengthened by the tide of Chaos power. Kind of widening and contracting the viewpoints to give the dramatic presence of personal perspective and the gravitas of a huge scale.

This sort of self-reflection will be prominent indeed, both about his motivations and the situation that surrounds him. I intend for him to jump from one misguided direction to another, always foolishly believing that he is getting closer to mastering his own destiny with each ''jump''... which his manipulators will note and take into accord.

He will come to serve Chaos in a more wilful and defiant way as time goes on, something in him realising that he is but a pawn no matter what he accomplishes in Chaos's service. The Chaos powers will use what influence they can to keep him in this most useful way since again, he is too valuable to destroy, and he will never truly oppose Chaos. The daemon prince can be the prime influence that drives him against his masters, but I want the daemon prince to still want him to serve Chaos - otherwise I feel the plot becomes too black and white. No side in this should be ''good'' even if the daemon prince may have a more just cause than the Chaos gods.


That fourth should depend on the setting. If the story is set in the north, it could be a scheming Tzeentchian demon who attempts to pull everyone's strings. If in the badlands, you could have a Chaos Dwarf sorcerer or Black Orc Warboss in search of slaves. Perhaps an Ogre Maneater or Hunter seeking trials and fame?

I think it'll be an orc and a tomb king now that you mention orcs. The orc warboss will provide a more mundane challenge to contrast with the rest and the tomb king can similarily provide something that is not directly connected to Chaos - better enabling me to do the damned if you do, damned if you don't trap for the main character that I want with some action of his benefitting both the tomb king and his own Chaos overlords.


That is a fan art of War from the Darksiders series. Having never played the Legacy of Kain series, that was the first thing my mind went to when you showed me the picture.

Well me neither... the plotline of that game is just so good I've watched it on youtube and learned its story :p. If you have the time and will I heartily recommend it, the plot is inspiring. Couldn't care for playing the game itself really :p


I always envision the realm of magic as a place where concept and reality are practically the same thing. As your character interacts with the power of Chaos and the emotional extremes it brings, you have an opportunity to present more depth than "KHORNE WANT SKULLS", for example. Not all rage need be expressed by a drooling rush to the enemy battlelines.

The last thing this guy will do is blindly rush to the enemy battlelines because Khorne want skulls ;) that would just be unfitting for a main character.


Yeah. It's a dynamic of two hated foes that have never really achieve victory over one another and who have been fighting so long that their lives become dependent on the struggle continuing, not ending.

And I believe this is the reason I can use for the daemon prince still wishing that the main character continues his service to Chaos, though perhaps like the Chaos gods, he may not wish so actively. He just knows that without Chaos there is no place for him, he will no longer have a just cause or purpose and he will ultimately destroy himself since he is also Chaos. So while he is driven to the goal of Chaos's destruction and would, if he could choose, enact it, it's something that he unconsciously doesn't want either. And this fact in itself, that he cannot afford Chaos's total destruction, can be part of his smouldering detestation of the Chaos gods - dependency breeds resentment.

Jack of Blades
23-12-2011, 23:35
Think I found a way of the daemon prince still wanting the champion to worship and obey the Chaos Gods. Recognising the boundless favour the gods seem to have in store for him and their great plans, he tries to manipulate the main character into doing the most hollow deeds and as concluded earlier kills other potential everchosen and powerful champions. This in an effort to channel the gods' favour into a controllable figure to least endanger the world.

The only challenge with all of this is how is such information hidden from the main character? I could go with the route of him not knowing who is telling the ''truth'', perhaps he even takes the fact that other champions are being killed positively for his selfish ends and so on - a great way to make things less clear for him in fact. The main character may be the pawn but he's not witless and knows to take advantage of what he can, knowing that the gods have great leniency for him, with both the gods and the daemon prince both thinking and planning that they can control him.

Soon now, I'll update the OP with what's been concluded so far...