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View Full Version : So... is dreadfleet a flop?



rabblerouser
10-12-2011, 22:52
Because it still hasn't sold out, and it seems like they are really trying to push it.

The bearded one
10-12-2011, 22:57
I don't think them pushing it by mentioning it here and there really reeks of a desperate attempt to get rid of it. It's just not selling particularly well, certainly not as well as space hulk, but eventually it will be gone. I don't know how many costs they're incurring by each store having a couple on the shelves, but I don't think a lot. Bulk storage of a lot of dreadfleets not yet in stores will cost a couple of bucks, but I don't think to the point where dreadfleet becomes financially "blergh.."

tezdal
10-12-2011, 23:06
Should've just re-released Man O War instead of another board game.

Shamutanti
10-12-2011, 23:08
Just for ManOWar to flop again?

Wasn't exactly a success the first time, unlikely to be one a second time.

KronusDaSneaky
10-12-2011, 23:18
Yes and No. Yes its a flop because its clearly not the giant immediate cash injection GW was looking for. No because its only a matter of time before it sells out (could be 6 months or more but it will eventually shift)

GW kind of missed the boat so to speak. Dreadfleet is actually quite fun and not badly priced for what you get. However it would have done a lot better if rather then releasing solely as a one off expansion focusing on fun pirates, did it as a time limited multiple release of a man o war style product. Selling the core box with empire and vampire counts (possibly still as a one off), followed by releases of 5 ship fleets for each of the other armies every 2 months or so for around 30 a go and the occasional big ship like a Black Ark. A lot more people would have been interested in buying a fleet for their respective armies and many would have bought multiple sets. The runs need not be large, just enough to make a tidy profit and it would have sold out dreadfleet much faster.

Bergen Beerbelly
10-12-2011, 23:36
GW seriously missed the boat on getting a profit from re-releasing Man-o-War at a time when it would have sold like crazy. As soon as Pirates of the Carribean came out, if GW would have re done Man o War and added a bit more for pirates than just empire wargalleys and some iron fists, they would have had a big seller on their hands.

Back then, anything to do with pirate ships was selling really well in every game store I visited (which was quite a few as I was travelling a lot then)

Oh well, their loss.

Lord Malorne
10-12-2011, 23:46
There are existing stockists that are selling their own versions of Fantasy Naval Combat, Uncharted Seas (which I play myself) which may or may not have made GW not bother to compete in that market, that said I would have liked a staggered release myself as i find it hard to justify the price for the game when I have an existing product from another company (that supports it).

Grimdesign
10-12-2011, 23:54
It also didn't help that nobody had a blasted clue on the mechanics of the game, A result of GW's information handling. Did they honestly expect people to go:

"OMG GW product, must buy now!!! wait whats that limited release? Ill buy like 10 more!!! because all limited releases are good!!!"

instead it was:

"...This sounds suspect, ill wait until others give their review and make an informed decision, until then ill spend my cash on something else"

Chiron
10-12-2011, 23:58
Yes and No. Yes its a flop because its clearly not the giant immediate cash injection GW was looking for. No because its only a matter of time before it sells out (could be 6 months or more but it will eventually shift)

GW kind of missed the boat so to speak. Dreadfleet is actually quite fun and not badly priced for what you get. However it would have done a lot better if rather then releasing solely as a one off expansion focusing on fun pirates, did it as a time limited multiple release of a man o war style product. Selling the core box with empire and vampire counts (possibly still as a one off), followed by releases of 5 ship fleets for each of the other armies every 2 months or so for around 30 a go and the occasional big ship like a Black Ark. A lot more people would have been interested in buying a fleet for their respective armies and many would have bought multiple sets. The runs need not be large, just enough to make a tidy profit and it would have sold out dreadfleet much faster.

Indeed, a big part of Space Hulks appeal was the nostalgia factor, all the people who played it the first time heard Space Hulk and thought "HOLY **** THATS AWESOME!!!"

Tell people to buy Dread Fleet and people just go "what?"

KronusDaSneaky
10-12-2011, 23:59
It also didn't help that nobody had a blasted clue on the mechanics of the game, A result of GW's information handling. Did they honestly expect people to go:

"OMG GW product, must buy now!!! wait whats that limited release? Ill buy like 10 more!!! because all limited releases are good!!!"

instead it was:

"...This sounds suspect, ill wait until others give their review and make an informed decision, until then ill spend my cash on something else"

Too true. I am certain it would have done a lot better if GW had spent time ramping up the interest rather then surprising everyone with a product they did not really ask for.

The bearded one
11-12-2011, 00:00
Isn't that nostalgiafactor far more influential for space hulk, because Space Hulk was liked in the past as well, while Man o' War didn't perform all that well the first time 'round?

Vaktathi
11-12-2011, 00:13
My FLGS still probably has 15-20 boxes of the thing in stock, I don't know if he's sold any to be honest.

There's several problems with Dreadfleet.

First, and one of the most important, is that the damn thing was literally released without any preceding information or buildup until it was practically being shipped. Nobody knew what it was, much of what it was about, how it played, or anything else. There was no hype, no buildup, no interest generation, it was literally just "hey, we just released this, go buy it!".

Second, it's pieces can't really be used in another system. Space Hulk was a downright steal for the Terminators and Libby alone, much less all the Genestealers and board pieces, and you can use them all with 40k without too much trouble.

Third, price. Space Hulk wasn't exactly a cheap board game at $100. Dreadfleet is $115 with fewer playing pieces and whatnot. It is *very* difficult to justify spending $115 on a boardgame when you can pick many up for half that cost or less.

Fourth, nostalgia. Space Hulk had a huge cult following and was already very widely known and seen as an excellent product. Dreadfleet had no such backing.

So essentially, GW released a brand new game without any sort of information or release buildup at a higher price point and less value/interoperability and as such it should surprise nobody that it isn't doing well, or at the very least as well as GW may have hoped.

Had they done a good amount of release buildup and kept the pricepoint down a little bit, it'd probably be much more popular, however GW's current marketing...strategy (I don't like calling it that since it's not much of one) basically seems to be dead set on ensuring as little hype is generated as possible for products before their release, and as such it should be no surprise when such products fail to sell well.

IcedCrow
11-12-2011, 00:27
It's a $110 board game. Definitely niche. Did it fail? I don't think it failed. It is a niche product. Naval battles are not a huge thing overall to most people. Hell trying to find four people to play a Battle Fleet Gothic campaign in a city with a healthy wargaming population is insanely difficult.

As it is a niche product, I think that if the expectations were that it would fly off the shelf that the marketers need fired. Otherwise, I think it's doing exactly what a $110 naval board game would do... sell slowly.

Lordy
11-12-2011, 00:34
Yeah Flopfleet failed bad.

TheBeardedOne loves it but im pretty sure he works for GW...

BTW, my Club shop is having a raffle for a flopfleet, he cannot shift any of the box sets at all so he's trying to get rid of them this way, 5 a ticket if anyone wants a ticket let me know.

Raffle draw is on december 22nd

ewar
11-12-2011, 00:35
I have no idea what the gaming community wants sometimes - why on earth do we have these threads?

Space Hulk was released and people moaned that it sold out/they had to buy at inflated prices in the private market.

Dreadfleet is released, doesn't sell out in the first 5 mins and everyone bemoans it as a flop.

If you like it, buy it. If you don't, don't. Who cares how many copies are still around? GW might have printed twice as many as space hulk due to the demand for that game - only the accounts department will actually know, and as that doesn't include any of us, it's pointless to even consider the OP's question.

I have a copy, and I can safely say that the models are gorgeous and I think worth the asking price along with the sea map, cards and terrain. It's a lovely set, however I'm yet to play a game as I only play with painted minis and mine are only just built.

ewar
11-12-2011, 00:36
Yeah Flopfleet failed bad.

TheBeardedOne loves it but im pretty sure he works for GW...

Jesus christ, please no more weak pointless puns - that's exactly what this board needs. I'm surprised you couldn't squeeze a dollar sign somewhere in there.

Lordy
11-12-2011, 00:38
Jesus christ, please no more weak pointless puns - that's exactly what this board needs. I'm surprised you couldn't squeeze a dollar sign somewhere in there.

Sorry about the dollar sign but I don't touch anything American if i can help it.

ewar
11-12-2011, 00:39
Sorry about the dollar sign but I don't touch anything American if i can help it.

Except the computer your typing that on. Genius.

Lordy
11-12-2011, 00:46
"if i can help it"

Genius indeed.... don't suppose you was on the FlopFleet design team? just asking.

colonel kane trine
11-12-2011, 01:40
I dont know anyone who wanted to buy or play it.
Most people I know want to own the ships that go with the fantasy army they own and thats about it.

Il take the tomb king one if anyone has one :p

Other than that I have no interest in it

sulla
11-12-2011, 02:06
Because it still hasn't sold out, and it seems like they are really trying to push it.How would we know? What were the goals when they released it? What was the break even point?

BigbyWolf
11-12-2011, 02:12
Just for ManOWar to flop again?

Wasn't exactly a success the first time, unlikely to be one a second time.

I actually think it would do fine if they had released it. It's picked up quite a cult status since it finished. I think a lot of younger gamers would enjoy it too, particularly as it had a low cost ratio (in comparison to other products). It would probably be cheaper than Dreadfleet (at least hopefully...I didn't play much of the new Space Hulk, but I think that the contents were very similar to the original box, just prettier) for the base set as well- there wouldn't be a map/ board, and the ships wouldn't be as detailed/ costly as the DF ones. Man o' War came with 12 identical ships, 6 in read and 6 in blue (although I would hope they'd be a bit nicer than the originals). The only exception may have been better scenery/ land-masses instead of cardboard cut-outs.

On topic though, I don't think Dreadfleet will flop. There main costs for it are done with, it takes up minimum space in store, and although the page or two they'll no doubt dedicate to it in every issue of White Dwarf from now until it's gone may be better used advertising other products but given that everyone can view new/ upcoming releases online I don't think that is as important as it used to be.

It will sell, eventually, and a few years later it'll be on eBay for silly prices.

rabblerouser
11-12-2011, 02:23
Who cares how many copies are still around? GW might have printed twice as many as space hulk due to the demand for that game - only the accounts department will actually know, and as that doesn't include any of us, it's pointless to even consider the OP's question.

By that logic, there is no point in discussing anything that we can't know for certain. Quickly mods, close down the rumours sections. It's pointless to even consider upcoming releases in advance because only GW knows, and that doesn't include any of us.

Anyway. I think it was (is) a total flop for GW, at least compared to space hulk. The way they're trying to push this game now reeks of desperation. It's at the top of their new products list on the website, despite being relatively old. It's been featured on whats new today many times after it came out. It's still being plugged in white dwarf. The stores try to push it when you walk in, etc. I'm not saying it's a bad product, but I think most people refrained from buying it because:
-It's not man o' war and doesn't have that nostalgia factor
-There are other ship games out there that have continued support
-What do you do with the ship after you played through the campaign a few times... or even once? This is really the main point. The ship models are great but becomes completely useless once you've played the game.

I asked the owner of my FLGS about it and he's not happy at all. He said he sold 2-3 copies but the rest are collecting dust. He sold twice as many boxes of the warmachine starter set this week, than dreadfleet boxes since september.

BigbyWolf
11-12-2011, 02:35
I asked the owner of my FLGS about it and he's not happy at all. He said he sold 2-3 copies but the rest are collecting dust. He sold twice as many boxes of the warmachine starter set this week, than dreadfleet boxes since september.

This is probably where the impact will be seen the most. Whereas GW won't be affected by the space spare copies takes up, a smaller independent retailer probably would.

rabblerouser
11-12-2011, 02:40
How would we know? What were the goals when they released it? What was the break even point?

Well generally their strategy with these limited releases is to make some cash without a product taking up shelf space. Having something around for a limited time hurries up the buying decision - all those people thinking "hmm not sure if want, maybe buy later" start thinking "better buy before sold out." That usually works out well for the big army boxes, paint sets, and space hulk.

DaemonReign
11-12-2011, 03:23
OK so first of all let me just say I think Lordy already *won* this thread, he made me laugh.. That doesn't happen every time I come on here.

I personally think Dreadfleet is a waste of time. If it ain't Warhammer Fantasy (or at least possible to convert into something preferably Daemonic for Warhammer Fantasy) I think everything is a waste of time.

I'm the kind of person you'll find lurking the 40k threads for rumours on Plastic Plaguebeaerers for Warhammer Fantasty. That's me.

I heard the insubstantial rumours of Dreadfleet and I was hoping for a huge 28mm scale terrain-piece 'ship' that I could buy for as an x-mass present for my Dark Elf-friend so that we could invent some fantastic scenario.

Instead we get something that, in my eyes, isn't even Man 'o War...

First time after the release I was in my local store one of the guys working there (and I know it wasn't TheBeardedOne *lol*) stood there with desperation in his eyes (boss's eyes on his back) trying to sell it to me.. It was sad. I felt sorry for the guy.

I tell him the truth: I'm into fantasy. I got a heap of lazy ass friends who's models I am already setting out to paint. I really don't need problems on a whole new scale to go with that.

And he tries.. But... but.. You can play scenarios that 'connect' with your Fantasy battles.. like, like at first there's a battle at sea, right, and then the forces make landfall..

I actually bought 4 boxes of Greatswords that day just out of sympathy for that guy (and my Empire playing friend I might add) - just to show GW that I don't mind (at all) spending my money on their toys.. but they gotta be landing at least in the same playing-field as where am at or I just can't help them..

GodlessM
11-12-2011, 03:38
Because it still hasn't sold out, and it seems like they are really trying to push it.

I'd say that's more due to GW's 'limited edition' stock tendencies than anything, i.e. something is limited edition and then once it's gone and demand is high, more just suddenly pop up.

The bearded one
11-12-2011, 04:09
TheBeardedOne loves it but im pretty sure he works for GW...

Pheh, if I worked for GW I wouldn't be bothering with forums, I'd be abusing my direct link to GW to endlessly whine for more dwarven fluff where they win without losing 3/4 of their army.

I actually haven't even played dreadfleet yet, but so far I love the models. I've got a paintinglog for it :) * points to sig * (shameless advertising ought to be allowed.. GW does it.)



OK so first of all let me just say I think Lordy already *won* this thread, he made me laugh.. That doesn't happen every time I come on here.

No, just the mere mention of me made your day. The fact Lordy said it is inconsequential.


I actually bought 4 boxes of Greatswords that day

Could I borrow one of your money-trees?

lbecks
11-12-2011, 04:15
If I was GW, i would be disappointed.

Eppe
11-12-2011, 04:19
This is probably where the impact will be seen the most. Whereas GW won't be affected by the space spare copies takes up, a smaller independent retailer probably would.

The GWS I go to sold 30. I got the last one on the shelf and they store manager managed to get 3 more boxes after that, which he was excited about because of how well it had been selling. It may just be your area. They also did a Dreadfleet Tourney recently.

I bought it because the models look cool.

Vaktathi
11-12-2011, 06:52
I have no idea what the gaming community wants sometimes - why on earth do we have these threads?

Space Hulk was released and people moaned that it sold out/they had to buy at inflated prices in the private market.

Dreadfleet is released, doesn't sell out in the first 5 mins and everyone bemoans it as a flop.


These are not the same thing. It's one thing for something not to sell out in the first 5 minutes, but Dreadfleet doesn't appear to be selling *at all*. I don't think my FLGS has sold a single copy since its release. It's more expensive, doesn't really tie into anything else, and most people know relatively little about it or that it was going to be release aside from the fact that it has ships, unlike Space Hulk which had a good deal of pre-release and was already a well known game with a lot of pent up demand.

So demand for SH was high, it sold out quickly, not enough copies to go around in the initial release wave.

Dreadfleet is still widely available because nobody appears to be buying.

LotusCorgi
11-12-2011, 07:49
Would love to pick one up but...VC out in Jan!

Deathbysoup
11-12-2011, 08:02
sold out on the initial burst in my local GW

Now all the kerfuffle has died down about it, nobody really wants it.

shelfunit.
11-12-2011, 08:15
How would we know? What were the goals when they released it? What was the break even point?

We have a rough idea of how much the moulds for plastic sprues cost, and the rest of the components are fairly cheaply produced (cards, thin plasticy game mat). The goal of any limited edition product is to sell out as quickly as possible as the idea is to get rid of it and have non-limited edition stock replace it's shelf space. Were there the rumoured 65,000 copies produced with the moulds being around 50k each and the other stuff, I guesstimate around 10-15,000 copies sold needed to break even (around 700k-1m).

Duke Ramulots
11-12-2011, 08:21
To make Man O war a success all they need to do is sell a campaign that incorperates it into a WFB one. I ran a campaign that incorperated man O'war, blood bowl, mordheim and WFB once and it was about the most fun you could have playing with miniatures that didnt involve lube :)

russellmoo
11-12-2011, 08:23
It isn't selling well around here either- I think it really comes down to the price tag-

The economy is poor- money is tight- GW's solution?

Release a completely new- $115 board game that only interacts barely with their other product lines-

It's either one "ballsy" move or else reckless- I'm not sure which one yet-

Lord Velard
11-12-2011, 08:23
We order 50 and sold something like half of it, And i think we weill not order more. As far as i remember we order 1000 Space Hulk and sold all of them in 4 mouths. Not very good prouct. Its better if they create something like Warhammer Online Age of Recooning on tabletop, witj miniatures of all characteres from the game in plastic. THAT will by bomb, not tis sorry box of useless ships.

bildo
11-12-2011, 08:30
should have just been a game like bfg but fantasy ships, would have been able to fit into campaigns and such and would have been a massive success

Jind_Singh
11-12-2011, 08:46
Well say what you want but my source works in the main office - I won't say the actual numbers they released world wide but it's only been out for a limited time and they already sold out 82% of their copies world wide....

So if that's a flop I'd HATE to see a win!

As for the game itself - it's a pretty good stand alone game, the local GW store has been selling an average of 1.5 copies per week in the last month alone.

Our local store is even doing a Dread Fleet campaign starting January as there was a lot of interest and demand.

So flop? Not really - but everyone's welcome to think what they want!

Wishing
11-12-2011, 08:50
They also did a Dreadfleet Tourney recently.

How does that function exactly? With what I've read about the game it doesn't seem to lend itself to a tournament format...

Duke Ramulots
11-12-2011, 08:51
Well say what you want but my source works in the main office - I won't say the actual numbers they released world wide but it's only been out for a limited time and they already sold out 82% of their copies world wide....

So if that's a flop I'd HATE to see a win!

As for the game itself - it's a pretty good stand alone game, the local GW store has been selling an average of 1.5 copies per week in the last month alone.

Our local store is even doing a Dread Fleet campaign starting January as there was a lot of interest and demand.

So flop? Not really - but everyone's welcome to think what they want!

GW selling 82% and 82% being sold are not close to the same thing. There are only two stores around here and they both have over half of theirs unsold. Now to GW all of those count as "sold".

Jind_Singh
11-12-2011, 08:53
On Space Hulk...

1) It was an established game with a cult following
2) The models could be used by Marine Players and Nid Players in their own armies
3) It's in the vastly more popular 40k setting.

To compare Space Hulk & Dreadfleet is apples to oranges.

On Man O War...

I was there when the game came out, and watched with excitement as they brought out this new and exciting game...

I was still there when it sank without trace into the murky waters of 'specialist' gaming. As much as I would have loved to see another Man of War the premise doesn't work - it didn't work then, it won't work now - and to try and support the game you'd have to bring out every fleet all at once - and then what? Is it limited edition? If so then what happens to the fleet models that don't sell as well? Sit on shelves, take up inventory room, cost for storage over time? Drip release the models? But then that makes this a core game and we already have enough issues with the release schedule on the main games - why would we want something else that pushes back the Warhammer/40k army releases?

Say what you will - as a gamer I enjoy the game, and as a business I can see why they (GW) did it the way they did.

Is it to everyone's tastes? No - not really.

But did they almost sell what copies they made world wide, and the players who bought them are having fun? Yes - so were is the fail?

Jind_Singh
11-12-2011, 08:58
There are only two stores around here and they both have over half of theirs unsold.

Won't dispute that in the slightest - know two gaming stores (Not GW but carry their stuff) that didn't sell ANY of their copies!

But an unknown board game with a steep price tag will do that for you. But the stores I saw were they had open, painted copies and ran demos - those stores are selling them well enough.

My local store, about a month ago, had a decent line up of people wanting to try it out - and they did a demo with 4 ships, so 4 people at a time, and the dude running the demo ran out of energy long before the line up ran out of people wanting to play!

PS - for the record I don't work for GW, have shares in GW (well apart from the ton of models I own), and nor do I always like or approve of what GW does - but in this case I feel it strange that they (GW) are being blasted for doing a splash release of a board game - which obviously sold well enough for them, and is actually a really good board game!

My two cents!

Lord Velard
11-12-2011, 09:01
Well say what you want but my source works in the main office - I won't say the actual numbers they released world wide but it's only been out for a limited time and they already sold out 82% of their copies world wide....
want!
I think they DONT sold them to players, they sold them to retailers. I AM retailer. We buy 50 and for now sold only 25. Comparint to SH, when we receive in first banch 100 and sold them before they arive in store, its very weak sales. Very very.

Lord Velard
11-12-2011, 09:07
On Space Hulk...
To compare Space Hulk & Dreadfleet is apples to oranges.

This IS mistake, to release game with no advathages of Space Hulk. You talking about reasonf of fail, i say that DF IS A fail, regardles of reasons.

Duke Ramulots
11-12-2011, 09:11
@Lord Velard, is it ok that I read your posts with a russian accent?

"In Soviet russia, thread post you"

Lord Velard
11-12-2011, 09:18
@Lord Velard, is it ok that I read your posts with a russian accent?
"In Soviet russia, thread post you"
Its perfectly ok, tovarisch :D

marv335
11-12-2011, 09:20
My local shop couldn't keep them on the shelf.

I enjoy playing it, the contents are good value (in my opinion) and the seascape is useful for Dystopian Wars too.

Misfratz
11-12-2011, 09:24
Il take the tomb king one if anyone has one :pEBay will provide:

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?itemId=330654069802&index=8&nav=SEARCH&nid=00276871819

If GW don't release a similar limited edition game in a box in 2013 then we'll know that Dreadfleet was a flop. Everything else is people's personal prejudices.

Theodred
11-12-2011, 09:39
I dont know anyone who wanted to buy or play it.
Most people I know want to own the ships that go with the fantasy army they own and thats about it.

Yeah, but Dreadfleet isn't for you or your friends. It's for the same people who'd buy this, (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/27848/age-of-conan-the-strategy-board-game) this, (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/27627/talisman-fourth-edition) or this. (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/37111/battlestar-galactica)

It's not a new wargame, with factions you can collect to go with your existing forces. It's s stand alone board game, for board game fans. It doesn't need to tie into WHFB battles, or lend itself to army-building and collecting any more than Monopoly does.

I imagine it was hypothesised that wargamers and board-gamers share a lot of crossover, and GW decided that they could try to capture some of their dollars by taking people who are already GW customers, and attracting that portion of their money they would otherwise spend on non-gw boardgames.

shelfunit.
11-12-2011, 09:42
If GW don't release a similar limited edition game in a box in 2013 then we'll know that Dreadfleet was a flop. Everything else is people's personal prejudices.

Not at all. GW "need" a big release every year to maintain sales figures - new fantasy and 40k editions are every 4 years, there is clearly a drop off in sales on the years that contain no big box new edition releases and GW have to fill them with something - the Ltd edition box games will continue until they come up with a summer campaign again for both systems that drives sales - a bit like storm of chaos etc.

Rosstifer
11-12-2011, 09:46
I don't get the obscene hard-on some people have for seeing GW fail. A lot of things they do annoy me, especially the pricing policy of my area of the world, but I still don't understand the sheer malevolent glee some people seem to get from proclaiming the doom of GW and of anyone who likes any of their products. And that's only a slight exaggeration.
I played Dreadfleet. Didn't really like it, and to be honest I'd rather they'd released more for the core games. If you did like it, that's fine, it's certainly very pretty.

Scammel
11-12-2011, 09:49
but in this case I feel it strange that they (GW) are being blasted for doing a splash release of a board game - which obviously sold well enough for them, and is actually a really good board game!


My sentiments exactly. I'm surprised it's not really been mentioned in the thread so far that, asides from all the stuff about poor marketing, not tying in with people's existing armies etc etc etc, it's simply (for me and my friends, anyway) a top-notch, fun game.

shelfunit.
11-12-2011, 09:52
Yeah, but Dreadfleet isn't for you or your friends. It's for the same people who'd buy this, (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/27848/age-of-conan-the-strategy-board-game) this, (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/27627/talisman-fourth-edition) or this. (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/37111/battlestar-galactica)

It's not a new wargame, with factions you can collect to go with your existing forces. It's s stand alone board game, for board game fans. It doesn't need to tie into WHFB battles, or lend itself to army-building and collecting any more than Monopoly does.

I imagine it was hypothesised that wargamers and board-gamers share a lot of crossover, and GW decided that they could try to capture some of their dollars by taking people who are already GW customers, and attracting that portion of their money they would otherwise spend on non-gw boardgames.

Whist an interesting idea, two of the games you mention have long established and continued support along with numerous expansions, and one of them is a GW liscensed Boardgame to begin with. A second issue is (as it is nearly always is with GW) is the price - all of those games you have listed are at best 1/3 the price of DF, and at worst under 1/2 the price (in USD).

EDIT:@ Rosstifer - I have yet to see anyone getting a "hard-on" for hoping/seeing GW fail.

Lewis
11-12-2011, 10:16
It is hard to say what has happened with Dreadfleet. My local store has copies filling up the shelves and not going anywhere, but then the store has moved away from GW as a community that that's not surprising. It is also a mail order outlet so maybe more should have shifted than has if things were going to plan...

Speaking personally I think the game failed to attract interest because of mechanics. In a way GW have shot themselves in the foot because if I wanted to buy an expensive non-collectable game based around a Warhammer license I sure as **** wouldn't go to GW, I'd go to Fantasy Flight, with their reputation for brilliant games design. My experience with regards to seeing Dreadfleet was to be initially blown away and then becoming instantly suspicious as to whether this was going to be an exercise in dice bucket rolling. I'm aware however that this may not be the fundamental reason for take up. I'm probably more of a subscriber to the mixture of limited release coupled with absence of nostalgia.

Gorbad Ironclaw
11-12-2011, 10:25
It's s stand alone board game, for board game fans.

I don't think they managed that very well though. At 70 it's an expensive boardgame. You can probably get most other games plus an expansion or maybe even two games for the same price. And, it's still more of a hybrid game. I can't just buy the box, open it and play it like the pictures they are showing me. I'm going to have to faff around with assembling and painting the ships etc. (That I didn't liked the design of the ships at all didn't help)

It was probably aimed at the crossover group of GW players that also do boardgames but it just doesn't quite seem to be priced/managed right to make it as a boardgame on it's own.

Replicant253
11-12-2011, 10:40
I bought Dreadfleet on pre-order immediately upon seeing it. I love the models (they are my current painting project), think it was fairly good value and will remain in my gaming collection for many years with an occasional play with my group of friends and will be especially handy for when my children are old enough to take their first tentaive steps into gaming.

One minor annoyance was that i perceived it as a boardgame but in truth i don't think it falls neatly into that classification as I still have to get my gaming boards out and flip them over to lay out the seasmat which is far bigger than i thought it would be. This is still more minature wargaming than boardgaming IMO.

Of course none of this is really relevant to whether or not it is a 'flop'. I find it hard to believe that GW don't know their market and comparisons with SH are pretty unrelaible. Surely GW knew the differences and DF's sales targets and production values/quantities reflected that. I will say that just because it didn't sell out in 5 minutes does not make it a failure and GW knew all along that this would be a great stand alone product to shift over Christmas and imagine that plenty will be be unwrapped on the 25th.

I hope it is a success as i love these splash releases. Reminds me of the GW of late 80s/90s and I hope they continue....Ghorka Morka next please.

Theodred
11-12-2011, 10:40
I don't think they managed that very well though. At 70 it's an expensive boardgame. You can probably get most other games plus an expansion or maybe even two games for the same price. And, it's still more of a hybrid game. I can't just buy the box, open it and play it like the pictures they are showing me. I'm going to have to faff around with assembling and painting the ships etc. (That I didn't liked the design of the ships at all didn't help)

It was probably aimed at the crossover group of GW players that also do boardgames but it just doesn't quite seem to be priced/managed right to make it as a boardgame on it's own.

Their implementation and marketing could have used work, for sure. All I'm saying is that people arguing it should have had a staggered release with proper fleets so they could collect a fleet to go with their army, and play naval battles against people who did likewise, and link them into their WHFB campaigns, those people are missing the point entirely.

It's not meant to be Man o' War 2.0, it's just another boardgame. Those people should try imagining it without the WHFB tie-ins, just as a naval game set in a generic fantasy setting.

Replicant253
11-12-2011, 10:46
I don't think they managed that very well though. At 70 it's an expensive boardgame. You can probably get most other games plus an expansion or maybe even two games for the same price. And, it's still more of a hybrid game. I can't just buy the box, open it and play it like the pictures they are showing me. I'm going to have to faff around with assembling and painting the ships etc. (That I didn't liked the design of the ships at all didn't help)

It was probably aimed at the crossover group of GW players that also do boardgames but it just doesn't quite seem to be priced/managed right to make it as a boardgame on it's own.

At 70 it is priced about right IMO. FFGs high end war/RP games in a box such as Descent, Dust and Horus Heresy all weigh in at that price. Considering what you get i actually think the price is about right...don't get me wrong 70 is still a lot of money but represents roughly market value.

I do agree that i was slightly crestfallen to open the box and see that DF does constitute quite a project in itself. You cannot just crack this open and be playing within half an hour. So once again this is why it doesn't neatly fit into the boardgame classification and has far more in common with the FFG games listed above.

Ponge
11-12-2011, 10:56
Its not.
For some reason everyone thinks it should have sold as fast as Space Hulk.
Just stop comparing it to a product that was pure nostalgia and had great models useable for two 40k armies and you should realise Dreadfleet is not doing that bad.

EmperorNorton
11-12-2011, 11:07
Would GW have chosen to push Dreadfleet as massively as they have with their 'buy it nownownow or lose out forever!' approach if they did not expect it to sell out fast?
I don't think so, because now that the game seems to be dead in the water it makes their marketing spiel look ridiculous. And if I were a retailer I'd think twice about falling for it again.
And that's the real danger for them. Dreadfleet will sell out eventually, but the sellers will remember how long they had it sitting on their shelves collecting dust.

Shimmergloom
11-12-2011, 11:18
Yes it is a failure and Blood in the Badlands is even worse, because most local stores cannot even get it. My local stores and warstore both told me they couldn't get it. I saw it for pre-order on Maelstrom, but GW won't let Maelstrom sell it to me.

GW didn't learn anything from Dreadfleet and instead are ratcheting up the nonsense by not letting people even try to sell it, just to squeeze more money out of their customers by forcing them to buy it direct.

Replicant253
11-12-2011, 11:19
Would GW have chosen to push Dreadfleet as massively as they have with their 'buy it nownownow or lose out forever!' approach if they did not expect it to sell out fast?
I don't think so, because now that the game seems to be dead in the water it makes their marketing spiel look ridiculous. And if I were a retailer I'd think twice about falling for it again.
And that's the real danger for them. Dreadfleet will sell out eventually, but the sellers will remember how long they had it sitting on their shelves collecting dust.

A marketing campaign can be multi faceted. I think they pushed the limited edition factor early on to try and shift as many units as possible in those early few weeks knowing that would then leave them in a good position to then switch to a selling what was left over the Christmas period.

I don't understand all the anger. Having this as a limited release is a sound business decision (which i am grateful for because without it then it is likely these games wouldn't be made at all) but then using that in their marketing is also a sound business decision. They are simply stating fact...once it is gone its gone.

shelfunit.
11-12-2011, 11:26
At 70 it is priced about right IMO. FFGs high end war/RP games in a box such as Descent, Dust and Horus Heresy all weigh in at that price. Considering what you get i actually think the price is about right...don't get me wrong 70 is still a lot of money but represents roughly market value.

This is just not true. DUST: Tactics can be bought for $70 and 52 repectively, Descent for $90 and 59, and HH $65 and also 52.

Replicant253
11-12-2011, 11:28
This is just not true. DUST: Tactics can be bought for $70 and 52 repectively, Descent for $90 and 59, and HH $65 and also 52.

I was in Waterstones two weeks ago and they were selling Horus Heresy for 80. Six months ago Descent was in the same store for 70.

shelfunit.
11-12-2011, 11:31
I was in Waterstones two weeks ago and they were selling Horus Heresy for 80. Six months ago Descent was in the same store for 70.

Waterstones are not the only places that sell them you know.

Replicant253
11-12-2011, 11:35
Waterstones are not the only places that sell them you know.

I realise that but i mereley sought to demsontrate that RRP (which Waterstones will always sell at) was in the ball park of DF. I of course appreciate that with some interent shopping you might find it cheaper but the point stands.

shelfunit.
11-12-2011, 11:46
I realise that but i mereley sought to demsontrate that RRP (which Waterstones will always sell at) was in the ball park of DF. I of course appreciate that with some interent shopping you might find it cheaper but the point stands.

It would if you could acquire DF at a similar price, as you can not, sadly a price comparison to other games works against your point rather than for it.

Wintermute
11-12-2011, 11:47
I'm moving this thread to GW General

Wintermute

kris.sherriff
11-12-2011, 12:09
It would if you could acquire DF at a similar price, as you can not, sadly a price comparison to other games works against your point rather than for it.

http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pro&pre=gwk_spc_dft_ess_101_000

First place I looked...

Kris

Replicant253
11-12-2011, 12:13
It would if you could acquire DF at a similar price, as you can not, sadly a price comparison to other games works against your point rather than for it.

The RRP for DF is 70. The RRP cost, approximately, of some other high end boxed wargames is a similar figure.

This represents the value the manufacturer places on it and my orginal point was that DF represented about the going value for what is in the box i.e. a lot of stuff.

That you can pick up the other games at cheaper prices with a bit of hunting around is not relevant to the point. There is a huge demographic out there who will not be buying these games cheaper online, especially around Christmas but will be buying them at their high street prices.

Edit: Having seens the reponse above it seems you can get a bit of discount but the point is that this just furthermpore proves that DF is in the same ball park whether from the High Street or cheaper internet alternatives. Sorry I am labouring this one point...i'll just end by saying that i think DF is priced about right for what you get.

shelfunit.
11-12-2011, 12:26
http://www.maelstromgames.co.uk/index.php?act=pro&pre=gwk_spc_dft_ess_101_000

First place I looked...

Kris

Which is still about 10% above the most expensive of the other games, and cannot ship GW produce outside of the EU.


The RRP for DF is 70. The RRP cost, approximately, of some other high end boxed wargames is a similar figure.

This represents the value the manufacturer places on it and my orginal point was that DF represented about the going value for what is in the box i.e. a lot of stuff.

Completely irrelevent - the only prices that matter are the prices they are actually being sold at. RRPs are nothing whatsoever to do with the contents of a box - they are set at whatever the manufacturer thinks they can sell at.



That you can pick up the other games at cheaper prices with a bit of hunting around is not relevant to the point. There is a huge demographic out there who will not be buying these games cheaper online, especially around Christmas but will be buying them at their high street prices.

The point you appeared to make in the post which you compared DF to other games in terms of price is completely relevent. People do not purchase 70 games on a whim. They look at reviews online and from there it is a microscopically short step to looking up prices online.


Edit: Having seens the reponse above it seems you can get a bit of discount but the point is that this just furthermpore proves that DF is in the same ball park whether from the High Street or cheaper internet alternatives. Sorry I am labouring this one point...i'll just end by saying that i think DF is priced about right for what you get.

Indeed you can get DF a bit cheaper (if you are lucky enough to get one of the 5 remaining copies at this price), but this is still 4 higher than the most expensive of your comparative examples, and that is in England - in the US where FFG have their manufacturing base the relative costs of the games are very much not in DFs favour

Wintermute
11-12-2011, 12:42
If this thread becomes one discussing pricing, then I'll close it with no further warning.

If you wish to discuss the pricing of Dreadfleet then do so here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209297).

Wintermute

Theodred
11-12-2011, 12:45
Completely irrelevent - the only prices that matter are the prices they are actually being sold at... People do not purchase 70 games on a whim. They look at reviews online and from there it is a microscopically short step to looking up prices online.


Absolute nonsense.

My grandmother is not going to do online reviews of a game before she buys it for me as a christmas or birthday gift. She's just going to think it looks like something I might like, and buy it for me. If anything, she'd recognise the GW logo from the numerous wardolly paraphernalia I have laying around, and be MORE inclined to get it.

The price at which an item CAN be purchased is not relevant when comparing the relative prices of the items in question.

Steve54
11-12-2011, 12:46
I can't really see how you can discuss the failure, or otherwise, of the sales of a product without, at least, tiuching on the factor of price

Theodred
11-12-2011, 12:47
If this thread becomes one discussing pricing, then I'll close it with no further warning.

If you wish to discuss the pricing of Dreadfleet then do so here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209297).

Wintermute

:rolleyes:

Define 'discussing pricing' for me.

EmperorNorton
11-12-2011, 12:49
Indeed you can get DF a bit cheaper (if you are lucky enough to get one of the 5 remaining copies at this price), but this is still 4 higher than the most expensive of your comparative examples, and that is in England - in the US where FFG have their manufacturing base the relative costs of the games are very much not in DFs favour

The situation is even more in disfavour of Dreadfleet in Germany, where boardgames are very popular (it's not a rarity for a game to sell in the hundreds of thousands, i.e. a multiple of Dreadfleet's entire production run) and they are in a very competitive market.
Dreadfleet was priced at 90€. The best discount you'd usually get is 10%.
Horus Heresy (which I think comes with a lot more stuff in the box) is priced at 80€, but you can easily find it for 60€.
Descent is priced at 65€, but you can easily find it for 45€.

I am not strictly opposed to buying high-priced board games (I recently bought Super Dungeon Explore for around 60€ and Battles of Westeros for around 50€), but Dreadfleet is in a league of its own price-wise and I could pick up 2-4 other fantastic games instead for the same amount.


The price at which an item CAN be purchased is not relevant when comparing the relative prices of the items in question.
Tell that to the owners of all the game stores which had to close in recent years because people were buying their games from amazon instead...

Wintermute
11-12-2011, 12:56
Thread Closed.

Wintermute