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broken_system
20-04-2006, 05:12
Hey guys, I have asked this question once before regarding the WYSIWYG guideline but something else has caught my attention.

In regards to conversions to just about anything, I iunderstand that if the model can clearly be recognised as having certain features or can be clearly identified as a certain type of troop, then the conversion is acceptable.

My question comes in terms of altering certain aspects of models for conversions. Right now I am in the middle of too many conversion projects to list them all but I will ask about the ones in particular that might cause me problems.

First and most important is my Defiler Converison. I am making it as a mix of Defiler, Dreadnought, and lots of other misc parts to make a large, demi-titan so to speak. When I am done it should look similar, altho smaller, than the Chaos Warhound Titan from Forgeworld. The thing that I am wondering about is that in the Defiler description in the codex aswell as how the model should be built, shows it as a 6 legged machine. My conversion will only be two legs. Altho it may not be as wide with the stock Defiler construction, it will be a bit taller and broader close to the top.

As a whole would you have a problem with this? Sounds like a simple question, but when you think about it in game terms, a vehicle is size 3, therefore size 3 terrain will block line of sight. The problem could arise from "hull down" purposes because my model will be less wide, therefore giving me a slight advantage for positioning him behind cover. There may be other issues aswell so please let me know if you can think of any.

My other conversion idea that may be problematic is my Obliterators. I am using the plastic Terminator models with modified arms to fit the various gun barrels that are listed as the "body weapons" from the codex.

A few days ago I was chatting with my Local store owner in the shop while I was making some purchases and mentioned my Obliterator idea, he liked the idea altho suggested that I should modify the body aswell to make them a more "suitable" Obliterator. After suggesting this he went and got some of his conversion works and showed me how a normal GW Obliterator is somewhat larger than the plastic terminators.

Again as a whole do you think that people would object to me counting these modified Terminators (only modifying the arms and a few other minor details) as Obliterators?

Thanks for the advice.

Acolyte
20-04-2006, 06:57
The DefilierMech conversion is a popular one-there are loads of bipedal Defiliers walking around. As long as it's in the general realm of Defilier-size (ie smaller then a Warhound and bigger then a Rhino), it's all good.

Same goes for the Terminators. There are plenty of mechanical Obliterators around, especially with so many plastic weapons around for ease of conversion.

Neither should be a problem at all. Go for it!

starlight
20-04-2006, 07:03
Agreed. Go for it.:D

The Orange
20-04-2006, 07:19
Agreed seconded :p .
With the Defiler, as long as its not getting smaller overall, I'd be happy to play it as is, i.e. not trying to match a regular Defilers profile, because then it could get confusing.
With Obliterators, I see no problem here either, sure Obliterators are slightly bigger then Terminators, but when is that ever going to cause a problem? They have the same base size right? And roughly the same hight, right?

starlight
20-04-2006, 07:21
At least the new ones do.....the old ones were much smaller and *they're* still legal to use.;)

Clang
20-04-2006, 08:24
You may find a few pedantic opponents (especially in a tournament) who do indeed whine about a model being taller/shorter/fatter/skinnier than the standard model, on the grounds that they suspect you're being a weasel and have deliberately designed your conversion to give it some unfair advantage - even though you haven't. Unfortunately, I _have_ seen weasel converters who have done exactly that, so I have a _small_ amount of sympathy for them!

The only way to avoid this issue totally is to design your conversion so that it is pretty much the same dimensions as the offical model - I'd certainly consider doing so for your in-planning Obliterators, as it probably means nothing more difficult than adding a waist or foot 'reinforcement' or sticking some techy bits on top of the head to make it taller.

As for your Defiler, is it on a base? You could make a base for it that's exactly the same size as a normal Defiler, then tell your opponent that it's the base size that counts for 'hull down' purposes etc. If nothing else, that's likely to defuse any whiners, and might even win you some sportsmanship points.

broken_system
20-04-2006, 09:54
Those are some really good ideas. Thanks a bunch!

I really like Clang's Idea about making a base if people whine, nothing like having a back-up plan :)

Thanks again.

Azhrahg
20-04-2006, 10:09
I'd be carefull about the defiler conversion. Not that I would mind your proposal, but I have seen real defilers with the legs cramped in, and the body laid back, so it only had half the size it should be. These are of course legal but very bad form. I really doubt anyone will have a problem, but a base is a good idea to be certain.

As for the obliterators size is not a problem. The old obliterators is as starligth say still legal, and either way it is the base that matters, not the size of the model (unless absolutely ridicoules course).

Azhrahg

BDJV
20-04-2006, 10:39
I say do what makes you happy. As long as your Defiler has all of the valid weapons options. As you are doing a conversion of the original model don't worry about it.

Most of the opponents that would whine about the size of your model are WAC players anyhow. Play for fun.

Yodhrin
20-04-2006, 11:47
I say do what makes you happy. As long as your Defiler has all of the valid weapons options. As you are doing a conversion of the original model don't worry about it.

Most of the opponents that would whine about the size of your model are WAC players anyhow. Play for fun.

Damn right, "Counts As" beats "WYSIWYG" every time. Convert away, and anyone who wont play you isnt worth playing in the first place.

calicojack
20-04-2006, 12:14
First a note that I agree with Yodhrin, in that "counts as" definitely beats out "What You See Is..."

Especially in regards to Chaos and Orks, where conversion is, essentially, mandatory, as well to be honest with every other army [I hope to see lots of Fire Warrior With Jump Pack and Strangely Modified Drone conversions used as Stingwings].

<<when you think about it in game terms, a vehicle is size 3, therefore size 3 terrain will block line of sight. The problem could arise from "hull down" purposes because my model will be less wide, therefore giving me a slight advantage for positioning him behind cover. There may be other issues aswell so please let me know if you can think of any.>>

That for targeting other vehicles and models, and anything outside of Area Terrain, direct Line of Sight is used. To your disadvantage, a taller Defiler will thus be harder to hide behind anything other than forests and hills; to your advantage, many things will be easier to hide behind a taller Defiler. Of course, the survivability of Defilers being what it is, that may not be an issue [grins].

<<My other conversion idea that may be problematic is my Obliterators. I am using the plastic Terminator models with modified arms to fit the various gun barrels that are listed as the "body weapons" from the codex.>>

So long as the larger base size is used, your people will have nothing to complain about. The current Obliterators models are simply wide-standing Terminators anyhow, just not modeled quite as well. The model itself is about the same size. My own Obliterators use Terminator bodies and modified weapon arms, and in fact do double duty - in _really_ big games I'll be switching out the Obliterators for a unit or three of Chosen, at which point my Obliterators become heavy weapons terminator Chosen. And I've yet to have any problem - usually a "hey, nifty!" instead.

(Evil)Ash
20-04-2006, 12:53
hey, I say go for it! on one condition though: we get to see some pictures:D

also the WYSIWYG rule should be taken with a grain of salt anyway as even GW doesn't play by this rule. just look at the battle reports and some models they have released aren't that correct either (there was this BlackTemplar captain which had a Iron Halo while he was not even allowed to have one because the, then, obligatory Champion already had one). (I haven't read the new BT codex jet though).
also we usually like to try new things in our army, e.g. my Captain changes wargear all the time (sometimes he's got a plasma pistol and sometimes just a boltpistol), but I'm got going to remodel my models every time (I usually go for the wysiwyg option but not always). so we usually go by the rule; if you can recognize the models and he has got (sortof) the same size (like a character in term. armour wears term. armour) it's ok.

and


So long as the larger base size is used, your people will have nothing to complain about. The current Obliterators models are simply wide-standing Terminators anyhow, just not modeled quite as well. The model itself is about the same size. My own Obliterators use Terminator bodies and modified weapon arms, and in fact do double duty - in _really_ big games I'll be switching out the Obliterators for a unit or three of Chosen, at which point my Obliterators become heavy weapons terminator Chosen. And I've yet to have any problem - usually a "hey, nifty!" instead.

on this I have to comment though. Apparently the GW tournament rules say that you should use the base the model came with (which, I think, is usually the case anyway). but this also provides a little (maybe unfair) (dis)advantage. The new obliterators are on a large base while the old ones came with a small base (so tournament rules would suggest to use a small base for the old ones). also the Chaos (and DeathWing and Wolfguard for that matter) never came with a large base (and still don't). so in a tournament a chaos player would have terminators on small bases while the SM player would be forced to use large bases. and then there's also the fact that I'm not going the 're-base' all my terminators just because GW decided it looks cool (unless they would pay me ofcourse, though it would still make the old termies look very lonely on a large base:( ) then there's ofcourse still the problem with models who have weird things sticking out (like 'Nids scything talons) which unable to but your models in to base to base contact anyways, so base size doesn't really matter anyway.

greetz,:evilgrin:

jfrazell
20-04-2006, 13:18
Obliterators. I did the same thing with GK termies and greenstuff. As long as you use the oblit/termie sized base there shouldn't be a problem. I have never heard anything other than complements on the idea so go for it!

Defiler. I used the defiler rules for a war altar (a floating altar). I measured a defiler and made the base the same. I then placed the model on a stand with the same dimensions as the legs on a standard defiler. When I play it I inform opponents that these dimensions are the same. Again I have not had problems in that way.

Yodhrin
20-04-2006, 16:13
I was under the impression it was within the rules to use any base with a model providing it's not smaller than the one supplied? Otherwise every normal model on a 40mm scenic base is illegal in tournaments, and Im pretty sure Ive seen such things in the past.

starlight
20-04-2006, 19:43
Base size must be as supplied or larger.

Which brings up questions regarding models whose base size has changed over the years....:(

jfrazell
20-04-2006, 21:35
Base size must be as supplied or larger.

Which brings up questions regarding models whose base size has changed over the years....:(

Not me baby. You can make me change the bases on my Space Hulk Terminators when you pry them out of my cold dead hands :evilgrin:

starlight
20-04-2006, 21:48
Exactly my point....:p

broken_system
21-04-2006, 00:53
hey, I say go for it! on one condition though: we get to see some pictures:D

Soon as im done building it I will post some pics right away, if this thread has wandered into the other pages, ill post again, so just keep an eye out in the next week or so.

Glad to hear that people have no problems with it and encourage it. After all, thats what makes hte hobby soo much darn fun! :D