PDA

View Full Version : Dispelling Remains in Play Spells and the Magic Phase



vorthrax
11-12-2011, 21:52
It is Player A's Magic phase. Player A has one or more unused Power Dice and a Remains in Play Spell in play from a previous turn.

Player A declares his Magic phase over.

Assuming Player B has Dispell Dice available, is Player B allowed a dispell attempt of the Remains in Play Spell at this point in the turn?

Keeping in mind the BRB says, "...remains in play spells can be dispelled at any point during a subsequent Magic phase...", is Player A's Magic phase over precisely when Player A declares it over, thus disallowing Player B the opportunity to dispell any Remains in Play Spells that would otherwise be eligible for dispell at the end of the magic phase?

DaemonReign
11-12-2011, 23:47
I'd say 'yes' merely based on how 'freely' Player B is allowed by RAW to use his dispel dice for dispelling RiP spells.

Have to say though.. Since he can choose to dispel that RiP spell at any time in Player A's magic phase there would actually be some tactical neatness to him being disallowed to dispel if he waited too long.

Not sure, hence. But my guess is still 'yes'.

bsohi
12-12-2011, 02:56
I would say his magic phase is over precisely when he moves on from it. Either by declaring its over or moving to combats.

I have no idea of the actual intention but my understanding is that you couldn't dispell a RiP spell immediately for precisely the reason I say above.

Dirty Mac
12-12-2011, 03:39
It is Player A's Magic phase. Player A has one or more unused Power Dice and a Remains in Play Spell in play from a previous turn.

Player A declares his Magic phase over.

Assuming Player B has Dispell Dice available, is Player B allowed a dispell attempt of the Remains in Play Spell at this point in the turn?

Keeping in mind the BRB says, "...remains in play spells can be dispelled at any point during a subsequent Magic phase...", is Player A's Magic phase over precisely when Player A declares it over, thus disallowing Player B the opportunity to dispell any Remains in Play Spells that would otherwise be eligible for dispell at the end of the magic phase?

The magic phase is over when there is nothing left for either party to do, If person B has dispell dice left, he can attempt to dispell. If declaring the magic phase to be over makes it so, then After I successfully cast my big spell I declare it over so you cant dispell it, or even better I'll cast it with IF, but declare it over, and not worry about the miscast , Do you think that would work? no it wouldn't , If you can't cast spells or you choose not to, it's over for you, If you can't dispell or choose not to it's over for you. once it is over for both parties, next phase begins.

MOMUS
12-12-2011, 05:25
I agree with dirty mac, 'when the player declares' would be really difficult to enforce and really easy to abuse. You could have a few dice left and declare your magic phase over when you have finished the results of the spell-before you even roll the dice?

Moses
12-12-2011, 13:17
I would say the term "subsequent Magic phase" is the key point. You wouldn't be able to dispel any remains in play spells cast this turn, but yes to ones cast in the previous turn. Player A declaring his magic phase over means he has nothing more to do (generally spells to cast), it doesn't mean you can't do anything else (dispel remains in play spells cast in previous turns or possible use magic items or special rules that are applicable)

vorthrax
12-12-2011, 13:31
I am also of the same opinion as Dirty Mac. The way I see it, "at any point" includes the exact moment that the phase is over. So when Player A declares the phase over (whether Player A has remaining Power Dice or not), Player B should still get the opportunity to dispell Remains in Play Spells.

But I think that argument is too abstract to convince a lot of people so I was hoping that I may have missed some part of the rules or FAQ that clarifies when the Magic Phase is over.

The possibility of something like this had never even occurred to me, until a top table game at a local tournament this past weekend, because I and my opponents have ALWAYS allowed dispells of RIP Spells at the end of a Magic Phase.

Artiee
12-12-2011, 13:47
I have always allowed and been allowed to try to dispell RiP spells when the player declares magic is done. When we go into shooting, and have declaired my shooting target and started my rolls, I dont allow dispell if a enough time has gone past.

I'm not talking about "Ok, Im done casting. My Gobbos are shooting at your skinks, need 5 to hit, *roll*". The time im talking about is enough time to scan the field. About 10 secs. Its "Ok im done casting.. *Pause* hmmmmm, gobbos shooting at your skinks, BS 3, is 4, long range is 5.. 20 shooting - 5 to hit, *roll*"

I'm getting into the habit and trying to get my club into it also, of before putting your dispell dice away to ask if there is any RiP spells in play when the caster states he is done.

"fyi" sorry for the rambling.

hamsterwheel
12-12-2011, 14:15
Magic phases typically end because a player finishes all available spells to cast. In your example you say that Player A has one or more unused magic dice left but declares that his phase is over.

If Player B decides to dispel the RIP that might be in place from a prior magic phase then that's fine as long as Player A has the opportunity to recast it with any remaining power dice that he has left. He may have declared it over because he previously cast all available spells but having his RIP available again will allow him to cast it again.

Artiee
12-12-2011, 14:32
I'm back and forth on allowing him to redo the RiP spells.. One side of me says, I agree.. The other side says, no.. He had his chance to recast the spells if he wanted to. He declared his magic is over.

i.e. Purple Sun. Its a RiP spell.

hamsterwheel
12-12-2011, 16:43
I'm back and forth on allowing him to redo the RiP spells.. One side of me says, I agree.. The other side says, no.. He had his chance to recast the spells if he wanted to. He declared his magic is over.

i.e. Purple Sun. Its a RiP spell.

Not all RIPs effect just one unit or create a template that can be recast. Pandemonium is a RIP that effects every unit that is an enemy so there would be no reason to recast it unless it's dispelled.

Damocles8
12-12-2011, 17:08
they need a "Dispell RiP Spell" Subphase in the magic phase....simply to clear this up

Dirty Mac
12-12-2011, 19:41
they need a "Dispell RiP Spell" Subphase in the magic phase....simply to clear this up

I disagree, And here's why. The magic phase is just as tactical as other phases, especially with the drawing out of dispel dice. having a sub phase where that is the only time you can dispel Rip spells would change things too much.

Eg, firstly it forces people to remind other people that RiP spells are in play, , (some people forget). 2nd, say you have throne of vines up. now if i want to dispel it but am forced to wait until the casting of all other spells has been done, then It's unfair, because you'll get the bonuses from Throne of vines, before i get a chance to remove it. also if I am forced to dispel it before the casting of other spells , then I might end up wasting all my dice just to let you have free reign , cause i have no dice left. I would rather be allowed to let you have the chance to fail to cast , giving me an opportunity to take advantage of my DD surplus.

It should be my choice when I dispell RiP spells, and it is my choice. Even at the start of your magic phase, I am allowed to declare that I am attempting to dispel a RiP spell.

Artiee
12-12-2011, 20:12
Not all RIPs effect just one unit or create a template that can be recast. Pandemonium is a RIP that effects every unit that is an enemy so there would be no reason to recast it unless it's dispelled.

Unless you want to prevent them dispelling it at the lower level.

AlphariusOmegon20
13-12-2011, 04:28
I would say the term "subsequent Magic phase" is the key point. You wouldn't be able to dispel any remains in play spells cast this turn, but yes to ones cast in the previous turn. Player A declaring his magic phase over means he has nothing more to do (generally spells to cast), it doesn't mean you can't do anything else (dispel remains in play spells cast in previous turns or possible use magic items or special rules that are applicable)


This is the right answer.

eron12
13-12-2011, 15:58
I'm not sure where the "player A declares the magic phase over" idea is coming from (maybe I've just missed that in the book). The termenology makes it sound so formal, like a pronouncement of law. Is there a rule that says the active player is the arbiter of when a phase ends? In every game I've seen it's been more of a concensus of the players agreeing that the phase is over. Rather than Player A declaring, "The magic phase is now over," Player A says something to the effect that he is done or ready for the phase to end.

vorthrax
13-12-2011, 17:27
I'm not sure where the "player A declares the magic phase over" idea is coming from (maybe I've just missed that in the book). The termenology makes it sound so formal, like a pronouncement of law.I don't think anyone has suggested anywhere in this thread that the phrase you're quoting is in any way part of the offical rules, errata, or FAQs. It's simply a shorter way of saying what's in the BRB rules (see quote below).


Is there a rule that says the active player is the arbiter of when a phase ends?Yes, sort of...
"When the casting player has finished all his casting attempts, either because he has no remaining or useful spells to cast (or if all his Wizards have had their concentration broken by failing to cast a spell) the Magic phase ends, and the Shooting phase begins." (BRB, p37)
It is VERY clear that the active player (Player A in our example) can call an end to the Magic phase whenever he wishes. The question is whether Player B has an opportunity to dispell Remains in Play Spells after Player A has finished all he wishes to do in his Magic Phase.


In every game I've seen it's been more of a concensus of the players agreeing that the phase is over. Rather than Player A declaring, "The magic phase is now over," Player A says something to the effect that he is done or ready for the phase to end.That has been my experience as well! This is the first time anyone has ever done this in any game of Warhammer I have ever played.

So far, I and my gaming group (and this forum) are in pretty much universal agreement (even the notorious "Player A" agrees) that this is NOT how it SHOULD be played and that it is kind of a dodgy move. But, unfortunately, no one has as yet been able to provide a solid, logical, rules-based argument that such a move is, by RAW, illegal.

SanDiegoSurrealist
13-12-2011, 17:32
The magic phase ends when neither party has any dice left, spells to cast, dispels to make and both parties choose not to take any further actions OR if it is ended by the effect of a Magical Item or a Miscast.

Playing it any other way would just be cheating.

The Atavist
13-12-2011, 18:17
Hi there, the "Infamous Player A" here.

Vorthrax tells it true. I used a bit of legalistic shenannigans last weekend in the tournament.
A bit of background first; this was the final round on the top table of a medium sized tournament with pretty damn good prize support, the rules call in question had potentially game changing effects which could easily have given Vorthrax the win (instead of the draw which we came to) which would have bumped me out of first place and probably into third.
Vorthrax and I are friends IRL and regularly play friendly games against one another at our FLGS.

To reprise what occured: Player A (thats me!) had a debuff remains in play on Player Bs big nasty character that was in CC with my poor little mage. (hyperbole ahoy!) The debuff was essential to keeping my mage alive for another turn. The spell was cast at the top of turn 2, and during the top of turn 3 Vorthrax made it very clear that he was saving power dice to attempt to dispel the debuff at the end of my magic phase after I had concluded casting. (tactical error on his part)
At first I considered holding on to my 3 magic dice until he had dispelled the spell so that I could cast it again (recasting it immediately with 3 power dice vs his 4 dispel seemed like a bad plan) and we hit a bit of an impasse.
I didn't want to recast the spell, and he didn't want to dispel it until I was either out of power dice or had ended my magic phase.
Normally in a friendly game, or even one less important than the one we were in I would have gone with the general consensus that he had me over a barrel.
This wasn't a normal game, so I checked the rulebook.
The rulebook states: "If they are not dispelled immediately when they are cast, remains in play spells can be dispelled at any point during a subsequent magic phase, using dispell dice as normal, or using dice from the power pool as if they were dispel dice."

Then: "5. Next spell: When the casting player has finished all his casting attempts, either because he has run out of power dice or he has no remaining or useful spells to cast (or..yadda yadda) the magic phase ends, and the Shooting phase begins."
I also checked the errata and it states:
"Change [...]all his casting attempts[...] to [...]all his
casting and dispelling attempts[...] in the last sentence."
(note the last sentance mentioned here is the sentance quoted above)

The key wording here is "Casting Player", which is obviously Player A and and "Magic Phase Ends" . Player B has no say in when the Magic Phase ends, and he only has the opportunity to dispel the RIP "at any point during a subsequent magic phase". Key word: during. If it said during or immediately at the end I'd have been screwed.

Further in the "Magic Summary Section" the next spell subphase is described
"repeat seps 2 through 4 until the casting player cannot cast, or no longer wishes to cast, any more spells."

Again, key word is casting player, and now it not only says "useful spells" ect. but includes the language "no longer wishes to cast."

There is no provision in the Magic Summary, nor in the Next spell subphase for extending the magic phase by Player B by him declairing that he wishes to make a dispel attempt after player A is done. Player A no longer wishes to cast spells, thus the magic phase is over and the shooting phase has begun and Player B cannot attempt to dispel during the shooting phase.

Is it ******? I kinda think so, but mostly because it was a surprise. If this was a known feature of the magic phase, instead of a loophole that I discovered, it would be something that Player B would have taken into consideration during the Magic Phase and he likely would have attempted to dispel the spell before I concluded that I no longer wished to cast spells.

I've been looking at the rules and I'm of mixed feelings about the RAI on the "any point during the subsequent magic phase", as it explicitly gives provisions for when the magic phase -ends- and places all the power in the "Casting Players" hands. If the intent had been for the player to be allowed to dispel even after the magic phase ends shouldn't there have been some sort of provision that allowed for dispels to occur after the Casting Player is finished either in the Magic Summary, Dispel section, or in the Next Spell subphase?

Now in Player B's magic phase, he can choose to dispel the RIP at any point before he is finished casting, and there is nothing that I could do about it (which he did).

I agree with Vorthrax that it was an underhanded move, but it was as near as I can tell, perfectly within the rules and I'll likely continue to use it in the future as it makes magical defense for the second player less powerful.

I am however completely open to being wrong and if someone can give me a RAW justification (Somewhere in the book that it says that the dispelling player has the opportunity to extend the -ended- magic phase so that he has the opportunity to dispel or somesuch, as the timing of the phase ending is perfectly clear) , or a RAI justification not predicated on "our group plays this way" or "it's ******" then I'm perfectly happy to go with it. :)

vorthrax
13-12-2011, 18:17
The magic phase ends when neither party has any dice left, spells to cast, dispels to make and both parties choose not to take any further actions OR if it is ended by the effect of a Magical Item or a Miscast.

Playing it any other way would just be cheating.

Believe me, I would LOVE for this to be the case. Could you provide a reference to a rule that supports this?

The Atavist
13-12-2011, 18:23
I'm not sure where the "player A declares the magic phase over" idea is coming from (maybe I've just missed that in the book). The termenology makes it sound so formal, like a pronouncement of law. Is there a rule that says the active player is the arbiter of when a phase ends? In every game I've seen it's been more of a concensus of the players agreeing that the phase is over. Rather than Player A declaring, "The magic phase is now over," Player A says something to the effect that he is done or ready for the phase to end.

I'd think it kind of strange that there would need to be a consensus on when the magic phase was over. Does there need to be a consensus on when any other phase is over that I'm missing?



I agree with dirty mac, 'when the player declares' would be really difficult to enforce and really easy to abuse. You could have a few dice left and declare your magic phase over when you have finished the results of the spell-before you even roll the dice?

No you couldn't do that, because there are very specific rules on the timing of Cast, Dispel, Resolution. You couldn't interupt the casting of a spell to end the magic phase, however if you have power dice left, no spells to cast or no spells that you want to cast, and you enter subphase 5. it is entirely within the purvew of the Casting player to end the phase.





It should be my choice when I dispell RiP spells, and it is my choice. Even at the start of your magic phase, I am allowed to declare that I am attempting to dispel a RiP spell.

It is your choice, any time before the end of the phase.

T10
13-12-2011, 19:29
My two cents:

While it is clear that player A (whose turn it is) gets to choose the sequence of things when they occur at the same time, I don't see anything that would support him using this to deny his opponent the opportunity to take actions that can be taken at any time.

As player B clearly indicated that he wanted to use his opportunity to attempt to dispel the RiP spell (which he can do at any time) at the end of the magic phase, that's when he gets to make his dispel attempt. I can't see the magic phase working if you're going to bring play-ground logic into this.

The way you should have done it is like this:

Player A: I've got these dice left, and I know you want to dispel my RiP. If you attempt and succeed to dispel it now I'm going to try to cast it again. Otherwise this magic phase is over. This means that it's pretty much your move.

Player B: I'm not dispelling that RiP until the end of the magic phase.

Player A: While it may SEEM that we're at an impasse, we really aren't. This magic phase ends with me not having any further spells to cast. If you successfully dispel the RiP then I again have a spell I wish to cast and the power dice with which to cast it.

Player B: ... I want to dispel.

Dirty Mac
13-12-2011, 19:36
As underhanded as it seems, I have to agree with "Infamous Player A".
At a tournament, it seems like a valid tactic, and I would probably do it too.
my buddy and I are new, and the way we play is , If it's in the rule book, you can do it.

The Atavist
13-12-2011, 19:38
My two cents:

While it is clear that player A (whose turn it is) gets to choose the sequence of things when they occur at the same time, I don't see anything that would support him using this to deny his opponent the opportunity to take actions that can be taken at any time.

As player B clearly indicated that he wanted to use his opportunity to attempt to dispel the RiP spell (which he can do at any time) at the end of the magic phase, that's when he gets to make his dispel attempt. I can't see the magic phase working if you're going to bring play-ground logic into this.

The way you should have done it is like this:

Player A: I've got these dice left, and I know you want to dispel my RiP. If you attempt and succeed to dispel it now I'm going to try to cast it again. Otherwise this magic phase is over. This means that it's pretty much your move.

Player B: I'm not dispelling that RiP until the end of the magic phase.

Player A: While it may SEEM that we're at an impasse, we really aren't. This magic phase ends with me not having any further spells to cast. If you successfully dispel the RiP then I again have a spell I wish to cast and the power dice with whic to cast it.

Player B: ... I want to dispel.

That actually seems like a pretty fair argument and I wish that had been the conclusion come to during the tournament and I will play it that way in the future. Thanks!
However I would say that if my opponent does not declare that they wish to dispel before I end my magic phase that they would not get the opportunity to.
Further I would say that once I roll the last of my power dice to cast that the opposing player must choose before the final resolution of that spell whether or not he wants to attempt to dispel a RIP. To whit: if it is a spell that does wounds or whatnot he can dispel a RIP at any time during the resolution, if it is an augment or hex he must do it before deciding whether or not to dispel the spell that was just cast as immediately following the resolution of the spell the magic phase ends (as the casting player no longer has any power dice).

Gradek
13-12-2011, 20:11
I can see this ending in a shouting first match. As soon as you start to say the magic phase is over, player 2 is going to yell really load and cut you off to say he wants to dispel. The only real solution is to announce an intent to end the magic phase, at which point the inactive player gets an attempt to dispel any rip spells, but after which the active player would theoretically still have a chance to cast again if dice remained.

The Atavist
13-12-2011, 20:17
I can see this ending in a shouting first match..

That's kind of what happened, though it didn't devolve so far as to go to shouting, blood pressure definitely spiked. I think that there really needs to be a definitive ruling on this one way or the other from on high, since now that it's out there it might become a problem in the hypercompetitive scene.

I like your solution, just like the previous posters, but it's an opinion, not RAW and in a tournament setting your opponent could always point at the book and say "Show me where it says you get to go after my magic phase ends."

I'm all for hugs and handshakes when money isn't on the line, but when I play poker I play by the rules as written, when I play in tournaments the same applies unless there has been a TO ruling to clarify or over rule.

Artiee
13-12-2011, 20:38
By RAW I would have to agree with Atavist (Infamous Player A)...

Sexiest_hero
13-12-2011, 21:22
I'm with t10, The other player gets to react to what you do. It's only fair, and common sense. A lot of rules arn't written persay. If the defending player has dice to dispel he has every right to wait till you are done casting to do it. You can't just wait till hell freezes over, or try to quick end your phase. Just like he can't sit there and run the clock out for two hours, or hump the table, just because the book doesn't say anything about humping.

I won't judge you for what you did, but no amount of money or free loot is worth the chance of losing a friend or being known "that guy who says blood angel rhinos don't have doors".

You cast he dispels, repeat.

T10
13-12-2011, 21:55
That actually seems like a pretty fair argument and I wish that had been the conclusion come to during the tournament and I will play it that way in the future. Thanks!
However I would say that if my opponent does not declare that they wish to dispel before I end my magic phase that they would not get the opportunity to.
Further I would say that once I roll the last of my power dice to cast that the opposing player must choose before the final resolution of that spell whether or not he wants to attempt to dispel a RIP. To whit: if it is a spell that does wounds or whatnot he can dispel a RIP at any time during the resolution, if it is an augment or hex he must do it before deciding whether or not to dispel the spell that was just cast as immediately following the resolution of the spell the magic phase ends (as the casting player no longer has any power dice).

Again, my opinion:

I think it is only fair to check with your opponent if he has anything more he wants to do in the magic phase before ending it.

I don't think the ability to dispel "at any time" should be applied as an interruption of whatever effect or action currently being resolved. It seems most appropriate to handle any dispel of a RiP before or after resolving its effects for that turn, and not during.

Finally, RiP spells that have effects that need to be resolved at the start of the magic phase should not be allowed to be dispelled until after.

ewar
13-12-2011, 23:01
As underhanded as it seems, I have to agree with "Infamous Player A".
At a tournament, it seems like a valid tactic, and I would probably do it too.
my buddy and I are new, and the way we play is , If it's in the rule book, you can do it.


That's kind of what happened, though it didn't devolve so far as to go to shouting, blood pressure definitely spiked. I think that there really needs to be a definitive ruling on this one way or the other from on high, since now that it's out there it might become a problem in the hypercompetitive scene.

I like your solution, just like the previous posters, but it's an opinion, not RAW and in a tournament setting your opponent could always point at the book and say "Show me where it says you get to go after my magic phase ends."

I'm all for hugs and handshakes when money isn't on the line, but when I play poker I play by the rules as written, when I play in tournaments the same applies unless there has been a TO ruling to clarify or over rule.


Got to say I'm not impressed with the sportsmanship on display here - why would you treat an opponent at a tournament with any less respect than you would in a friendly game? It's toy soldiers, not the Olympics.

OT: I agree with T10s interpretation. Your (Atavist) view that you can end the phase without your opponent being able to dispel doesn't make sense as the wording is 'at any time', which by definition can be at the end of the phase.

SanDiegoSurrealist
13-12-2011, 23:28
Believe me, I would LOVE for this to be the case. Could you provide a reference to a rule that supports this?

You give your opponent the opportunity to respond with the dice he has saved for exactly that reason. To try and prevent him from that goes 100% against the spirit of the game. Everyone knows that this is not what was intended. To twist and distort it to try to gain a minutia of an advantage is just flat out trying to cheat.

Plus there is the simple fact that no tournament Judge would let this fly.

vorthrax
14-12-2011, 02:03
You give your opponent the opportunity to respond with the dice he has saved for exactly that reason. To try and prevent him from that goes 100% against the spirit of the game. Everyone knows that this is not what was intended. To twist and distort it to try to gain a minutia of an advantage is just flat out trying to cheat.

Plus there is the simple fact that no tournament Judge would let this fly.

Unfortunately, "everyone knows" is really not a valid argument.

The best argument I've been able to come up with so far is, "at any point" also includes the end of the phase which is the one I personally subscribe to.

The Atavist
14-12-2011, 03:31
Unfortunately, "everyone knows" is really not a valid argument.

The best argument I've been able to come up with so far is, "at any point" also includes the end of the phase which is the one I personally subscribe to.

I'd counter with the fact that RAW there isn't really any such thing as an "end of phase", there is step 5, which when resolved ends the magic phase and begins the shooting. "At any point" is during the magic phase.
"5. Next spell: When the casting player has finished all his casting attempts, either because he has run out of power dice or he has no remaining or useful spells to cast (or..yadda yadda) the magic phase ends, and the Shooting phase begins."

So in our situation, I had no useful spells left to cast and the shooting phase began without any sort of intermediate end of phase subphase in between. If I'm wrong and there is an "end of phase" subphase I'd like the page number.

I'd agree that until you resolve attempting to dispel or elect to not dispel my last spell cast and that spell is fully resolved (including miscasts) that the option to dispel a remains in play exists.

For example:
Turn 1:
Player A casts throne of vines.
Turn 2:
Player A has two power dice. Player A casts Awakening the wood with both dice.
Player B elects to dispel throne of vines with one dice and succeeds, then player B elects to dispel Awakening the wood.
Player A is out of power dice. Magic Phase ends.

Example 2
Turn 1: Player A casts throne of vines
Turn 2:
Player A has two power dice. He uses both to cast awaken the wood.
Player B elects to dispel Awaken the wood with one dice and succeeds.
Player A no longer has any power dice. Magic Phase ends.

Example 3
Player A cast throne of vines
Turn 2
Player A casts awaken the wood.
Player B elects to not dispel awaken the wood.
Player A rolls to wound.
Player B elects to dispel throne of vines before rolling armor saves or removing casualties. Finish resolving spell
Player A has no more spells to cast or PD. Shooting phase begins.

Example 4
Turn 1:
Player A casts throne of vines
Turn 2:
Player A rolls 2 power dice. Player A decides that they have no useful spells to cast with two power dice. Magic Phase Ends.

In this case Player B would have an opportunity to dispel at any time before Player A says that he isn't casting. As soon as player A decides not to cast the shooting phase begins.

sulla
14-12-2011, 04:02
Unfortunately, "everyone knows" is really not a valid argument.

.While this is true, turning the magic phase into a game of 'snap' to stop the opposing player dispelling remains in play spells doesn't seem any more in character for the game than using the 'at any point' clause to dispel Throne of Vines between rolling the miscast and rolling the 2+ to ignore the miscast...

The Atavist
14-12-2011, 05:32
While this is true, turning the magic phase into a game of 'snap' to stop the opposing player dispelling remains in play spells doesn't seem any more in character for the game than using the 'at any point' clause to dispel Throne of Vines between rolling the miscast and rolling the 2+ to ignore the miscast...

You mean the same "in the character of the game" that's being bounced around in the latest bunch of Faqs? The ogre players are salivating at heavy armor and great weapons on their mages despite Jervis himself putting a note in the faq saying (paraphrasing) RAW is this, RAI is that and those that RAW are jerks. Or the spirit of the game that lets a Greedy Fist death ogre steal my Slaans wizard levels from 24 inches away without having to roll to wound?
There's plenty of BS in this game from both a RAW and RAI standpoint and I will try to go with RAW every time.

I would really love it it people would stop telling me how horrible a person I am for using the Rules as Written as I see them, and tell me how to see them differently while still being RAW.

Your throne of vines example doesn't work. The miscast triggers the 2+ whether throne stays in play or not. Sure you could dispell it before the roll to ignore the miscast was made, but that doesn't obviate the fact that the augment was in play when the miscast initially happens.

Order- Throne in play. Subsequent round. Cast spell. Miscast. Triggers thrones 2+ protection. Dispell throne. Roll the 2+.

AMWOOD co
14-12-2011, 07:23
Your throne of vines example doesn't work. The miscast triggers the 2+ whether throne stays in play or not. Sure you could dispell it before the roll to ignore the miscast was made, but that doesn't obviate the fact that the augment was in play when the miscast initially happens.

Order- Throne in play. Subsequent round. Cast spell. Miscast. Triggers thrones 2+ protection. Dispell throne. Roll the 2+.

Not so. Warhammer doesn't necessarily consider initial states when an action is resolved. There may be an intervening condition.

MrMalorian's latest Podcast video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3n0ywD2NOc&feature=feedu) on the suicidal Big Boss is an example where a unit will fail a charge because the target it is charging dies during the charge move (fanatics interrupt anything). The charging unit, now having nothing to contact and being too late to redirect, must now fail its charge move since there is no other valid option. They will also not receive an Overrun as they were never in contact with an enemy before he died.

Granted, this is a specific example, but it is a decent parallel of how interrupting the normal stream results in an immediate change to circumstances. Most people would argue that if it were intial conditions that truly mattered, then you would not be able to get the 2+ roll to ignore a miscast if you miscast while casting Throne of Vines itself, but the FAQ does grant this. If it's the condition when the roll is made/not made that matters for this, then why should it be different for dispelling Throne of Vines in a later turn?

We should seek internal consistancy, and stating that the initial state is the relevant state is inconsistant with other rulings.

ewar
14-12-2011, 07:38
I'd counter with the fact that RAW there isn't really any such thing as an "end of phase", there is step 5, which when resolved ends the magic phase and begins the shooting. "At any point" is during the magic phase.
"5. Next spell: When the casting player has finished all his casting attempts, either because he has run out of power dice or he has no remaining or useful spells to cast (or..yadda yadda) the magic phase ends, and the Shooting phase begins."

So in our situation, I had no useful spells left to cast and the shooting phase began without any sort of intermediate end of phase subphase in between. If I'm wrong and there is an "end of phase" subphase I'd like the page number.

I'd agree that until you resolve attempting to dispel or elect to not dispel my last spell cast and that spell is fully resolved (including miscasts) that the option to dispel a remains in play exists.

For example:
Turn 1:
Player A casts throne of vines.
Turn 2:
Player A has two power dice. Player A casts Awakening the wood with both dice.
Player B elects to dispel throne of vines with one dice and succeeds, then player B elects to dispel Awakening the wood.
Player A is out of power dice. Magic Phase ends.

Example 2
Turn 1: Player A casts throne of vines
Turn 2:
Player A has two power dice. He uses both to cast awaken the wood.
Player B elects to dispel Awaken the wood with one dice and succeeds.
Player A no longer has any power dice. Magic Phase ends.

Example 3
Player A cast throne of vines
Turn 2
Player A casts awaken the wood.
Player B elects to not dispel awaken the wood.
Player A rolls to wound.
Player B elects to dispel throne of vines before rolling armor saves or removing casualties. Finish resolving spell
Player A has no more spells to cast or PD. Shooting phase begins.

Example 4
Turn 1:
Player A casts throne of vines
Turn 2:
Player A rolls 2 power dice. Player A decides that they have no useful spells to cast with two power dice. Magic Phase Ends.

In this case Player B would have an opportunity to dispel at any time before Player A says that he isn't casting. As soon as player A decides not to cast the shooting phase begins.

I think you're forgetting this is a game played between two rational consenting adults - which is probably where your confusion is arising.

As far as I can tell your argument is that the moment player A makes the subconscious decision to not cast any spells, then nothing further can happen. Avoiding the metaphysical arguments about when such a decision is really reached, player B can still dispel at ANY time, including the exact end point of the phase.

Can you tell me this something you genuinely like to use in a game? I'm a tournament player too and if this 'discussion' came up I'd be in the bar before you were half way through...

The Atavist
14-12-2011, 17:31
I think you're forgetting this is a game played between two rational consenting adults - which is probably where your confusion is arising.

As far as I can tell your argument is that the moment player A makes the subconscious decision to not cast any spells, then nothing further can happen. Avoiding the metaphysical arguments about when such a decision is really reached, player B can still dispel at ANY time, including the exact end point of the phase.

Can you tell me this something you genuinely like to use in a game? I'm a tournament player too and if this 'discussion' came up I'd be in the bar before you were half way through...

I love your not-so-subtle ad hominem. It has nothing to do with a subconcious decision and everything to do with the timing of step 5. when the Casting player elects to not cast any further spells and informs his opponent of that, or doesn't if he's a jerk, the shooting phase begins.
I could, for example, just decide to start shooting and the magic phase would be over. That would be a rude and unsportsmanlike thing to do, but it is well within the _rules_ which is what we are supposed to be discussing here.

I'm playing devils advocate with allot of this here, as I've already admitted previously that I wish that we had used the example earlier that I declare that I am done casting my available spells, and that I will hold my power dice until my opponent forfeits his opportunity to dispel or chooses to dispel. If my opponent chooses not to dispel, magic phase ends. If my opponent chooses to dispel then I have another opportunity to re-cast the remains in play. I'm of the opinion that this is a sporting RAI interpretation.

Also you might consider the tone of your post, you basically accuse me of being a jerk, and then state that you'd rage-quit if things didn't go the way that you think they should be interpreted and the rules be damned. *Shrug* Kinda undermines your position.





Not so. Warhammer doesn't necessarily consider initial states when an action is resolved. There may be an intervening condition.

MrMalorian's latest Podcast video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3n0ywD2NOc&feature=feedu) on the suicidal Big Boss is an example where a unit will fail a charge because the target it is charging dies during the charge move (fanatics interrupt anything). The charging unit, now having nothing to contact and being too late to redirect, must now fail its charge move since there is no other valid option. They will also not receive an Overrun as they were never in contact with an enemy before he died.

Granted, this is a specific example, but it is a decent parallel of how interrupting the normal stream results in an immediate change to circumstances. Most people would argue that if it were intial conditions that truly mattered, then you would not be able to get the 2+ roll to ignore a miscast if you miscast while casting Throne of Vines itself, but the FAQ does grant this. If it's the condition when the roll is made/not made that matters for this, then why should it be different for dispelling Throne of Vines in a later turn?

We should seek internal consistancy, and stating that the initial state is the relevant state is inconsistant with other rulings.

I'm sorry but this example fails to uphold your argument. The only time you are allowed a redirrect is against an enemy that has declared Flee! as it's charge reaction.

The charge fails not because the fanatic kills the unit before the charging unit reaches them, but because it is impossible for the charging unit to reach the unit with it's charge distance rolled as the target unit is no longer on the table.

Further, the wording of Throne of Vines is "whilst the spell is in effect, every time the wizard miscasts, roll a dice, on a 2+ the miscast is ignored."
It's pretty hard to argue that a dispel that occurs after the miscast prevents the spell from having been in play when the miscast originally happened. Therefore the spell is in effect-miscast occurs- spell is dispelled, roll a 2+ for that miscast. Subsequent miscasts in that phase that occur before throne of vines is recast would of course be subject to the normal rules for miscasting.

I fail to see how this breaks internal consistency.

eron12
14-12-2011, 17:46
I'd counter with the fact that RAW there isn't really any such thing as an "end of phase", there is step 5, which when resolved ends the magic phase and begins the shooting. "At any point" is during the magic phase.


I think there is in fact an "end of phase" in the RAW, it's when magical vortexes are moved. Following a strict interpetation of your position, vortexes wouldn't move, because as soon as the player decides the phase is over, things move onto shooting. It may not be particulalry well defined, but the written rules acknowledge as specific part of the magic phase as the end of the phase.

Out of curiosity, what was the really good prize support that motivated all of this?

The Atavist
14-12-2011, 18:02
I think there is in fact an "end of phase" in the RAW, it's when magical vortexes are moved. Following a strict interpetation of your position, vortexes wouldn't move, because as soon as the player decides the phase is over, things move onto shooting. It may not be particulalry well defined, but the written rules acknowledge as specific part of the magic phase as the end of the phase.

Out of curiosity, what was the really good prize support that motivated all of this?

Awesome! Finally a real argument. I'd say that yes, if a magical vortex is on the board that until the vortex has been completely resolved that it is still the magic phase, and that a vortex cannot be resolved until step 5 directs you into the shooting phase.
Howsever it's still a timing issue, like I said in a previous post the opponent has the opportunity to dispel at any time during the magic phase. Magic vortexes have a special rule that RAI basically says that they happen last. I can see an argument that because of that RAI that there is an "end of the magic phase" subphase, but I would counter that this condition only exists when a magical vortex is on the table and exists until the vortex has been completely resolved.

The amount of the prize support is unimportant, what is important is that it was a competitive game in a competitive environment being played for the equivilant of cash and thus the rules are of paramount importance.
You can make up all the rules you want in a card game with your buddies that you're playing for M&Ms, do the same at a casino and you'll loose your shirt.

When I play for fun that I'm easy going, when I'm competing I play by the rules and I play to win.

hamsterwheel
14-12-2011, 18:15
I believe the answer you're looking for is on page 3 of the rulebook listed on the side in the section called "Spirit of the Game". It suggests that the rules placed in the book are a framework and that they should be used to make the game more enjoyable for both players. What you're suggesting doesn't sound enjoyable, thus breaking the Spirit of the Game, the most important rule in the rulebook.

The Atavist
14-12-2011, 18:22
I believe the answer you're looking for is on page 3 of the rulebook listed on the side in the section called "Spirit of the Game". It suggests that the rules placed in the book are a framework and that they should be used to make the game more enjoyable for both players. What you're suggesting doesn't sound enjoyable, thus breaking the Spirit of the Game, the most important rule in the rulebook.

Power scrolls, The book of Hotek, Greedy fists stealing my wizard levels with death spells on the hit messes with my enjoyment of the game, unkillable dreadlords messes with my enjoyment of the game, cannons vaporizing monsters and riders messes with my enjoyment of the game. Should I go on?
I don't preclude my opponents from using those perfectly legal rules in competitive games, I leave that up to the Tournament Organizer.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it's against the rules.

SanDiegoSurrealist
14-12-2011, 18:24
I would say that hamsterwheel hit this right on the head.

Lawyered!

hamsterwheel
14-12-2011, 18:43
Power scrolls, The book of Hotek, Greedy fists stealing my wizard levels with death spells on the hit messes with my enjoyment of the game, unkillable dreadlords messes with my enjoyment of the game, cannons vaporizing monsters and riders messes with my enjoyment of the game. Should I go on?
I don't preclude my opponents from using those perfectly legal rules in competitive games, I leave that up to the Tournament Organizer.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it's against the rules.

You're listing a bunch of items that are considered cheesy but legal and you're attempting to compare it to a situation where two people are shouting, one of which is saying "The magic phase is over because I said so!"

The Spirit of the Game tells you to work together to make the game enjoyable for both parties. The items are set in stone unless the organizer decides to restrict them, however, how a person chooses to conduct themselves in a public setting is entirely up to that person.

The Atavist
14-12-2011, 18:48
You're listing a bunch of items that are considered cheesy but legal and you're attempting to compare it to a situation where two people are shouting, one of which is saying "The magic phase is over because I said so!"

The Spirit of the Game tells you to work together to make the game enjoyable for both parties. The items are set in stone unless the organizer decides to restrict them, however, how a person chooses to conduct themselves in a public setting is entirely up to that person.

Oh were you there? You should have come over and said Hi!:D
There was never any shouting. We started playing as friends and ended the game as friends.

You may not like it, but it is the rule unless you can show me somewhere in the rulebook that I'm wrong.;)

Lord Inquisitor
14-12-2011, 19:05
Yeah I came across this several times before.

Typically I see "games as played" that if the caster runs out of dice or declares himself done (often to hold dice) that the dispeller can then use any remaining dispel dice to dispel previously cast RiP spells.

I feel that "at any point during a subsequent Magic phase" means the dispeller can interrupt the flow of the game to dispel, getting in before the phase ends, essentially interrupting the game between the declaration of "I'm not casting any more spells" and "therefore the magic phase is over". It's a bit of a stretch but it seems to work the way it is generally played.

Now when you get to the position of "if you dispel my RiP spell, I'll recast, if you don't I won't recast" that's just a horrible little situation. I've had it happen in a tournament game. The fairest is to say the caster must declare if he's done or not before the dispeller has an opportunity to dispel. Not RAW but it really saves on arguments!

hamsterwheel
14-12-2011, 21:43
Oh were you there? You should have come over and said Hi!:D
There was never any shouting. We started playing as friends and ended the game as friends.

You may not like it, but it is the rule unless you can show me somewhere in the rulebook that I'm wrong.;)

If both players had fun while playing then I have no issues with your argument.

Using it as a means of trying to prevent someone from dispelling a RIP is fine as long as both players are aware. Doing it like a ninja and surprising your opponent with it on the other hand is distasteful, but I can certainly see from a RAW perspective how you're correct.

The Atavist
14-12-2011, 22:05
Hamsterwheel,
I'm glad you're coming around. However, I am curious, do you mean to imply that it is my responsibility to make sure that my opponent knows the rules, and that -in a competitive setting- I should make sure to inform my opponent of any rules allowable strategies that he or I might choose to take advantage of just because they are not regularly used? Warhammer is a fairly complex game, with a less than airtight rules set with a whole host of rules that don't come up all that often, and discovering those nuances through play is part of the fun for me and most of my opponents.

First time my Engine of the Gods was shot with a cannon I was shocked to find out that the skink priest took the hit as well as the steg, but chalked it up to a learning experience that I would try to avoid in the future. I didn't hold it against my opponent that he didn't go over the finer points of cannon v monsterous mounts before he decided to shoot.
I know that this example doesn't have much to do with the situation in question, but more the impact of finding out rules through play.

Not everyone can know every rule for every situation, and there is a wide gap in skill level in warhammer, that is what makes it a game and what makes competition in it so much fun. If everyone was on a completely level playing field from understanding of the game to generalship to army composition it wouldn't be as stimulating and fun would it?

Lord Inquisitor
14-12-2011, 22:16
It depends on the situation but above all it is important not to be deceptive.

For example:
"I cast spell X. Will you dispel?"
"No, I'm saving my dice to dispel RiP spell Y at the end of the phase."
"Oh cool. I end the magic phase. You lose your dice."

That's not going to win you any friends or sportsmanship points. What it's going to get you is an argument, rules discussions with much reading of the rulebook and probably a judge's call, who might well not rule in your favour, since everyone's "gut" reaction is going to be "of course he can dispel at the end of the phase", let alone the fact that there is an ambiguity as to whether "at any point" can be used between the last spell being cast and the phase ending. All of this will annoy everyone and waste precious time needed to fully crush your opponent.

Really all-round sensible to make sure your opponent is aware of this sort of thing. This doesn't mean you need to explain your tactics or even necessarily rules that work in your favour, but if there is a rules technicality your opponent is clearly unaware of and you're later going to rely on in court - better to make everyone aware of it early on.

The Atavist
14-12-2011, 22:29
Nobody was relying on the rules technicality in this situation though.
He wanted to dispel a spell, I said OK but I'm holding dice till you do so I can recast, he didn't want to dispel it, I didn't want to recast it, so we went to the book to find out what happens.
I was as surprised by the apparent RAW that it was my choice to end the phase as my opponent. Of course he wasn't happy with that interpretation, so it did go to a judge, who ruled in my favor.
I should add that my opponent is an extraordinarily gifted player (and an all around great guy) who beats me regularly in friendly games and has won his fair share of tournaments, both big and small, so I wasn't exploiting a new or inexperienced player.

I actually prefer it this way, where the casting player has the choice to end the phase to protect their RiP spells as it makes RiPs a little more important. Your mileage may vary.

ewar
14-12-2011, 22:32
Hamsterwheel,
I'm glad you're coming around. However, I am curious, do you mean to imply that it is my responsibility to make sure that my opponent knows the rules, and that -in a competitive setting- I should make sure to inform my opponent of any rules allowable strategies that he or I might choose to take advantage of just because they are not regularly used? Warhammer is a fairly complex game, with a less than airtight rules set with a whole host of rules that don't come up all that often, and discovering those nuances through play is part of the fun for me and most of my opponents.

Actually that's pretty much what I try and do. Winning through daft rules tricks isn't a real victory, same way winning because you're opponent has no idea what your units can do isn't a proper victory.

At the start of most tournament games I will explain the monsters and handlers rules to opponents if they don't know them - it levels the playing field and prevents pointless arguments later in the game.

I wouldn't consider this magic phase timing discussion we've got going on here a 'nuance of the rules'. Even in the most competitive uncomped tournaments I've never come across someone who tried to pull this, and if they did I would bet both my nuts the TO would just rule to play it the way everyone plays it already.

I'm sorry you considered my previous post an attack on you personally, it wasn't meant as such - I just find it odd that anyone would do one thing in a friendly game and another thing in a tournament. It is perfectly possible to play competitively and maintain a high level of sportsmanship. The fact that you even make the distinction means on some level you already know it's an unsporting manouvre/a grey area of the rules; and if that's how you push for a win then I would find that uncomfortable.

At a recent tournament I came across a gamer who made a rules mistake against a mate of mine, and after the game results were handed in, went to the TO and told them an error had been made and my friend had really earned an additional 800vp, turning a draw into a solid loss for this guy. I played him later on in the same tourney, and I have to say he couldn't have been a better opponent to have (and not a pushover either). That is the gold standard I think, which unfortunately I won't ever live up to probably, but definitely something to aim for.

Lord Inquisitor
14-12-2011, 22:39
Well addressing the situation that crops up that neither player has anticipated is what judges are for. That's not quite what I was saying.

As I said before most players I know play that you have an opportunity at the end of the phase to dispel RiP spells, because that's the way it used to be in 7th. I think it is reasonable and I've never prevented an opponent from doing so even though I've been aware of this issue. It seems churlish to prevent an opponent from using his last few dice at the end of the phase to be perfectly honest and the rules are sufficiently ambiguous that I personally don't think it's worth pursuing in practice.

The Atavist
14-12-2011, 22:45
Ewar,
I do make a distinction between friendly and competitive games because in competition I play to my top ability and expect my opponent to do so as well. If I make a mistake, I eat it, if my opponent makes a mistake too bad. That's part of the reason that I play competitively, the stakes are higher and thus the enjoyment factor is amplified.
In a friendly game I'll let you mulligan stuff or fudge movement or take soft easy rules answers because it is a Friendly game. Same as playing kickball with your buddies is different from the standard you expect in the World Series.

This was not a situation where I was exploiting a rule that I already knew, it was a discovery process that in the end involved a TO ruling, and there are plenty of grey areas in the rules and I don't feel compelled to take the soft answer just because some people feel that it is nicer. I'm a very nice guy, but when I play competitively I'm playing to win. I don't cheat, I play by the rules, and if I make a mistake I own it, and I'm polite and strive for a fun game even if it isn't always. That to me is sportsmanship.

Finally, I didn't win the match where this rule came into question. We tied in points. I won the tournament because of two previous massacres.

Lord Inquisitor:
Mind telling me how it was worded in 7th? I'm just curious.
I disagree that it is churlish on the grounds that if I give my opponent an opportunity to dispel before I have the opportunity to recast and they turn that opportunity down I have the option of ending the magic phase. If they accept the opportunity, they have the chance to dispel it, and I have a chance to get the spell back. Game balance maintained.


However, this is getting wwaaaaaaay OT. Anyone have a RAW reason why I couldn't do what I did or does it all come down to "this is how we've always done it"?

theunwantedbeing
14-12-2011, 23:31
Pretty sure in 7th you were allowed to dispel any spells that remained in play at the end of the magic phase with any remaining dispel/power dice you had left over, so the issue never existed.

Now you simply dispel at any point.

The phase ending when the player whoose turn it is has run out of dice/useful spells left to cast/wizards who are able to cast.

I cannot find where you can voluntarily choose to end the magic phase.

The Atavist
14-12-2011, 23:39
Check my first couple of posts. It explains it in depth.

Sexiest_hero
15-12-2011, 00:41
when I'm competing I play by the rules and I play to win.

That's the Issue, somethings that arn't written are deemed assumed, or the book would be 9 million pages. Your thinking IMHO moves beyond Raw and into what you think is right. Cast dispel, repeat. Anything is you just waiting to cast, and him waiting to dispel forever. Forcing him to Dispel before you cast, breaks the pattern and therefore the game. This thread can end as nobody is going to change yur man and the general thinking is against you. Enjoy your loot.

Capt._Jaelinek
15-12-2011, 04:18
After reading thru the whole post. I think RiP dispels and the whole magic sequence as written is rubbish, but it's what we've got to work with.

IMO the caster typically has a big advantage and the defensive player using dice to dispel RiP is at a big disadvantage. While it's true that dispel of RiP can occur at any time during the magic phase, what does that mean?

It can't be at the beginning of Step 1 as no dice are available, but it could be at the end of Step 1 before any casting attempts are made. Steps 2-4 are valid times. For Step 5 as it is the caster's turn he gets to choose if he wishes to continue casting if he has dice available. As he is controlling the turn it seems perfectly valid for him to ask his opponent "Are you finished dispelling?" If his opponent says yes, then the phase ends and on to shooting. This is because the casting player gets to choose to continue or end the magic phase.

Now if the casting character rolls his final dice and the defender chooses to not dispel the cast spell he may attempt to dispel a RiP instead during Step 3 or 4.

A savvy player would hold dispel dice for RiP and use them during the last Step 3 spell saying "I am dispelling a RiP spell" before attempting to dispel the current spell cast to make sure they had an opportunity before the magic phase ended or "I am going to dispel a RiP before the magic phase ends (i.e. during Step 4).

If the casting player decides not to cast any spells at all the defender should have an opportunity to dispel any RiP prior to the magic phase ending as they should get a chance at the end of Step 1 as Steps 2-4 do not happen.

I think it's perfectly valid for the casting character to ask if his opponent wants to dispel any RiP spells and hold onto a few dice to attempt a recast if necessary and I think the BRB language in p29 and 37 support this.

As to sportsmanship I think waiting until the end of the phase to dispel a RiP spell assuming the casting character cannot decide to recast the spell with their remaining dice is a bit underhanded. It is the casting character's turn after all and they dictate the beginning and end of phases, not the opponent.

The Atavist
15-12-2011, 04:59
Thank you Capt._Jaelinek, you pretty much summed up my feelings on this matter completely.
+2 internets to you sir.

Sexiest_hero
15-12-2011, 06:00
I disagree. Capt._Jaelinek what you posted is just word-fu.

"A savvy player would hold dispel dice for RiP and use them during the last Step 3 spell saying "I am dispelling a RiP spell" before attempting to dispel the current spell cast to make sure they had an opportunity before the magic phase ended or "I am going to dispel a RiP before the magic phase ends (i.e. during Step 4)."

It would amount to the same thingbutslowdown the game into "my step 1"

You as the "attacking player" get to cast spells. He as the "defending player" will get to dispel what he will. You can't cast,and word your way around him being able to dispel.

This reminds me of when Imperial guard came out and their orders said "In the shooting phase" thenpeople when uts trying to shoot in the other players, turn.

DarcinCole
15-12-2011, 07:42
It seems to me that it has been demonstrated that there is an end of magic phase via movement of vortexes.
My view would be that the phases of the game to not change, they are present whether there is nothing to do in them or not, it is just that if you have nothing to do but your opponent does, it is only fair to allow them the action. For example, I play vampire counts and often I do not have any shooting, does that mean there is no shooting phase on my turn?
If my opponent said to me I am using this "item" which I can use at any time in your shooting phase I would say ok, but by your logic there wouldn’t be a shooting phase.
What I am trying to say is that I think there is an end of magic phase whether there is a magical vortex in play or not, therefore a dispel attempt can be made in it.

T10
15-12-2011, 12:42
So the argument here is that once the fasting player has no more spells to cast (no wizards able to cast spells, or no more spells known, or none he wants to cast, or none he can cast due to targeting restriction etc.) then the magic phase ends abruptly with no opportunity for either player to dispel RiP spells.

If this argument holds true, then surely this means that a Dwarf army with no spellcasting ability cannot dispel RiP spells in their own magic phase?

I find that quite unacceptable.

The Atavist
15-12-2011, 15:25
Darcin, you are attempting to compare apples to things which are not apples. Maybe horses. Or horse apples.
I'm not sure what the wording is for the shooting phase as I don't have my book in front of me but the shooting phase and the magic phase have very distinct rules from one another with their own internal steps for resolution and thus a comparison of them is moot. Items also typically have very specific rules on how they are used and frequently overide the BRB. While some of those items have ambiguous rules, each of them must be addressed as an individual entity, whereas we are discussing a core component of the magic phase and how the rules work internally without magic items or any other rules modifying cruft. Dragging shooting and magic items into the argument needlessly clouds the issue and doesn't contribute.

The case in question has nothing to do with the shooting phase, nor anything to do with items, and is solely a question of how to resolve the wording in Step 5 of the Magic phase as regards to "the magic phase ends and the shooting phase begins".
Vortexes are resolved at the end of the phase, as are a few other spells, and thus the resolution of those spells occurs after all other steps in the phase, during the resolution of those spells it is still the magic phase. Once those spells are resolved, the magic phase ends and the shooting phase begins.
You may want it to be ambiguous because you don't like it, but it isn't.

Lord Inquisitor
15-12-2011, 15:30
Lord Inquisitor:
Mind telling me how it was worded in 7th? I'm just curious.
I disagree that it is churlish on the grounds that if I give my opponent an opportunity to dispel before I have the opportunity to recast and they turn that opportunity down I have the option of ending the magic phase. If they accept the opportunity, they have the chance to dispel it, and I have a chance to get the spell back. Game balance maintained.

In 7th there was essentially a discrete step at the end of the magic phase explicitly after casting is over where first the caster could attempt to dispel using power dice and then the dispeller could use his remaining dispel dice on RiP.

I was referring to several possible issues with this, not just the situation you had in the OP. The idea that the caster could throw his last few dice - resolve the spell and yell "Magic phase over! You lose your dice!" before the opponent can dispel seems most unreasonable.

Your specific situation is more tricky. Yes, I have had this come up more than once in tournament games myself.

"I only have 1 spell left, which is a RiP spell already in play. I have nothing to cast."
"Then I'll dispel your RiP spell before the magic phase ends."
"Ah, but if you dispel it, I will recast before the magic phase ends."
":shifty: Then I won't dispel it and save my dice to dispel your recast."
":rolleyes: Then I won't recast and the magic phase will end."

It's an annoying loop. However, as pointed out above, magical vortices move at the end of the magic phase. Presumably then there is an "end of magic phase step" that and dispel dice can be used to dispel RiP "at any time" so I'd say this step is valid to dispel in.

I think the fairest resolution is the first player really does have to declare if he's going to recast the RiP or end the phase and afterwards the dispeller can choose to dispel the RiP without risk of the caster recasting afterwards. It's my opinion, but I think it fits RAW best along with how everyone generally plays it.

T10
15-12-2011, 15:46
Fair, sure. But how are you going to win the tournament if you play fair?

The Atavist
15-12-2011, 15:48
Lord Inquisitor,
I'm with you on pretty much everything (including magical vortexes creating an end of phase as long as they are in play), except I believe that the Casting player should have the last word in the magic phase.
If the loop you described above occurs, then the dispelling player is given an opportunity to dispel and declines, and the casting player declines to cast anything else then the phase is over.
If the dispelling player chooses to dispel, the casting player has an opportunity to recast, and the dispelling player (if he has any dispel dice left) has an opportunity to prevent the casting player from casting. It means that there is a risk however slight that the casting player will not be able to recast their RiP.
I think that this is a closer interpretation to RAW and doesn't cleave to the argument to tradition because of the way that it was resolved in 7th.
If the author had intended (I know I'm treading on soft RAI soil here) the explicit end of magic phase dispel without answer opportunity all they would have needed to do would be to keep the language from 7th as there was already a working mechanic for it.
Why change it if it worked and they wnated things to stay the same?
ro
What about shield of thorns? It occurs at the end of the magic phase as well. Can the dispelling player hold his dice until the casting player is done casting and then interupt the resolution of shield of thorns at any point?
Say you roll 12 hits, can the dispelling player say I want to dispel before resolving the wounds? Or after rolling wounds but before removing casualties?
When does "at any point" become ridiculous?
I would say that they can dispel it before the spell begins to be resolved, but the casting player should have the opportunity to recast it before the phase is over.

I was talking to the OP last night and we thought of another situation; there's nothing in the rulebook that says you have to inform your opponent when you are moving from one phase to another. You could, if you were a complete jerk, pick up your dice and then declair "This unit is shooting at that unit" and RAW the magic phase would be over. I am not recommending this course of action by any means, but it points out that the rules as written really should be clarified to make sure that jerks like me can't rules lawyer anti-fun interpretations into it. I stick with my position that the casting player should have an opportunity to recast after all dispells, everything else I'm just playing devils advocate on.

The Atavist
15-12-2011, 15:52
Fair, sure. But how are you going to win the tournament if you play fair?

By playing by the rules. :D

DarcinCole
15-12-2011, 16:26
It's an annoying loop. However, as pointed out above, magical vortices move at the end of the magic phase. Presumably then there is an "end of magic phase step" that and dispel dice can be used to dispel RiP "at any time" so I'd say this step is valid to dispel in.



This is the thought process I follow, in this scenario the only option for the caster is to recast the RiP spell to make it more difficult to dispel.

As it isn't crystal clear in the RAW the only solution to this is to think what was intended and what makes the game balanced, I play this way because I believe it to be RAI, It makes the use of power and dispel dice more tactical, doesn't give the dispeling player an unfair disadvantage and makes the outcome of the magic phase varied rather than certain.

You only get D6 dispel dice and being asked to stretch them to dispel a RiP twice is giving the caster an unfair advantage in my opinion as they can be confident that the RiP will remain.

DaemonReign
15-12-2011, 17:49
Well if you didn't bother dispelling that RiP in your own magic phase then perhaps it's not that big of a deal..

I personally lean toward the dispelling player having to make a choice at some point. He can start each magic phase by dispelling RiPs, he can opt to do so between each casting, he can do so when the casting player have depleted all his dice.. That's alot of choice - aside of the fact that he's got an entire magic phase of his own where he can spend dice as he pleases.

Player A - I'm done casting unless you dispel this RiP
Player B - I won't dispel it if you're gonna cast it again.
Player A - Which means you're done dispelling, for all intents and purposes..(?)
Player B - No in the spirit of WAAC-mentality let's stand here 'looping' for five hours..

It all was a bit more clear in 7th though..

Capt._Jaelinek
16-12-2011, 18:17
You as the "attacking player" get to cast spells. He as the "defending player" will get to dispel what he will. You can't cast,and word your way around him being able to dispel.

This reminds me of when Imperial guard came out and their orders said "In the shooting phase" thenpeople when uts trying to shoot in the other players, turn.
sexiest_hero,

Word-Fu is not what my intention is here. I read thru the whole post, consulted the BRB and thought about RAW, sportsmanship and fairness before replying. The non-caster should have every opportunity to dispel a RiP spell, but it is not fair and not my interpretation of RAW to allow the non-caster to dispel a RiP spell that the casting player cannot attempt to recast when they have power dice remaining. It's the casters turn and they control when the phase starts and ends. No shenanigans on either side;)

I think this is completely different from your IG reference and as an IG player I would never attempt orders during my opponents shooting phase.

Capt._Jaelinek
16-12-2011, 18:30
One important point here is whose turn is it. 7th edition magic was far more reliable and much lower powered than 8th. The controlling player typically has a huge advantage. I don't think the rules were written for fairness. They were written for the controlling player to dominate the magic phase!

As it is the controlling players turn they get final say when the phase ends avoiding the whole 'do loop' issue. That is my opinion though and I would have to check BRB to justify.

Sexiest_hero
16-12-2011, 19:25
Without clear rules we go on former rulings. it sets a president (sp?). Much likelaw when there isnt yet a ruling you turn to former rulings. Past rulings support SanDiegoSurrealist. No ruling supports any other view.

Lord Inquisitor
16-12-2011, 20:37
Fair, sure. But how are you going to win the tournament if you play fair?
You're going to win it fair and square, of course... ;)



I think that this is a closer interpretation to RAW and doesn't cleave to the argument to tradition because of the way that it was resolved in 7th.
If the author had intended (I know I'm treading on soft RAI soil here) the explicit end of magic phase dispel without answer opportunity all they would have needed to do would be to keep the language from 7th as there was already a working mechanic for it.
There are many examples of re-writes in 8th that muddied the waters when it was perfectly clear in 7th. Personally, I think it comes down to Alessio being more experienced rules writer than Ward at the time of writing the two books. Alessio was one of the best rulesmiths GW have ever had, I suspect because he came from a tournament perspective when he started.


Why change it if it worked and they wnated things to stay the same?
This is tricky ground indeed. The rulebook simply doesn't address this situation at all or we wouldn't be discussing it. I don't think the author even considered this situation, let alone intended anything about it.

If we start talking about RaI, I think the intent probably matches up with the way that every gamer I've ever seen in 8th plays it - the dispeller can save dice for the end of the phase. This may well be a hangover from 7th, but it's certainly GaP.


What about shield of thorns? It occurs at the end of the magic phase as well. Can the dispelling player hold his dice until the casting player is done casting and then interupt the resolution of shield of thorns at any point?
Say you roll 12 hits, can the dispelling player say I want to dispel before resolving the wounds? Or after rolling wounds but before removing casualties?
When does "at any point" become ridiculous?
I would say that they can dispel it before the spell begins to be resolved, but the casting player should have the opportunity to recast it before the phase is over.
This is a good question but there's no doubt that shield of thorns resolution is during the magic phase and dispel can be attempted at any point in the magic phase, right? Personally I think that if you attempted to actually dispel during shield of thorns resolution it would fall under the umbrella of "two things happening at the same time" so the player whose turn it is can decide. This isn't Magic. But is there any reason I can't dispel Shield after you finish casting and before it resolves?


I was talking to the OP last night and we thought of another situation; there's nothing in the rulebook that says you have to inform your opponent when you are moving from one phase to another. You could, if you were a complete jerk, pick up your dice and then declair "This unit is shooting at that unit" and RAW the magic phase would be over.
Yeah that's what I was saying in my first post. I think we can agree this is not an agreeable situation! There are actually many situations like this where you have something that can interrupt the opponent's turn - potions used at the start of the turn, hellheart in the opponent's magic phase, so on and soforth. I think it's safe to say "hold on before you do that" - anyone who actually goes "well, it's too late, I said 'shooting phase'" ought to get put in their place by a judge!

H33D
16-12-2011, 20:42
It makes sense to only end the magic phase after both players pass on taking any action. If you read the rules in the back of the BRB for the Battle Royale scenario, it is the rules for games including 3+ people, why wouldn't it be the same for a normal game?

Basically if I have some power dice left but nothing to cast but a RiP I have then I would pass. My opponent then could dispel the RiP or pass but would probably dispel the RiP. I would then attempt to cast the RiP again. Then we would probably both be out of dice and thus pass. The advantage for the dispelling player is that I may fail the casting attempt at recasting the RiP. Dispelling an enemy's RiP on his turn is going to cost you a lot of dice anyway because you have all the other spells to be concerned with. If dispelling that RiP on his turn is your priority then you aren't going to end up with a lot of dispel dice for anything else, especially when you generally have less DD than your opponent has PD anyway.

I disagree that it ever belongs exclusively to a particular player to end any phase or section of the game. If I have things that I can do in that section then you can't stop my by skipping it quickly. Both players must agree on when to end a phase in order to play according to the spirit of the game IMO.

DarcinCole
16-12-2011, 22:02
can we all agree that there is an end of magic phase, which is still part of the magic phase therefore, allowing a dispel attempt to occur in it?

If so, I do not understand how you could move back to casting a RiP spell as presumably you would then have another end of magic phase following this additional casting, moving magical vortexes again. If you loop in this way you get to move your magical vortexes multiple times in one magic phase.

In my opinion, there is only one end of magic phase which once initiated means you can't cast anymore. However, this isn't spelt out in RAW, but it seems logical to me and I think it is how the majority play it.

DaemonReign
16-12-2011, 23:15
can we all agree that there is an end of magic phase, which is still part of the magic phase therefore, allowing a dispel attempt to occur in it?


I think H33D really summed it up pretty good in his post just above your DarcinCole.

I agree that there is an end to the magic phase, but that 'end' only occurs when nobody wants or can do anything more with the power/dispel dice.

I can't cast anything except for a RiP already in play.
If you don't dispel it the phase is over.
If you do dispel it then *viola* I can of course cast it again.

The odd thing about this situation is that it technically becomes up to the dispelling player to call the "end of the phase" - but it's certainly a better solution - and closer to RAW and RAI - than letting the situation be resolved by one party feeling eternally cheated (not to mention looping about it).
No?

T10
17-12-2011, 12:05
Player B - No in the spirit of WAAC-mentality let's stand here 'looping' for five hours..

I don't think it's really a loop. Player A here is satisfied with the current state of things and player B wants to change them. The onus is pn player B to take action.

Dirty Mac
17-12-2011, 23:53
I disagree that it ever belongs exclusively to a particular player to end any phase or section of the game.
Well, the movement phase is controlled by the player who's turn it is. charges are declared first, but after that it's up to the controlling played do decide if we wants to move or not. Shooting is similar with exception to rolling for armour saves or panic tests, the controller can choose to shoot or not.
Without sounding like a broken record, the casting player controls the magic phase according to the book.



If I have things that I can do in that section then you can't stop my by skipping it quickly.

You have an opportunity to dispel at anytime during the magic phase. But if that phase ends and you didn't get a chance, well , That's just too bad for you. It might be because the caster decided to shut it down, it might be because the caster failed to cast and can't cast again for that round. in the case of the latter it's just bad luck due to the chaotic nature of magic. we all know what to book says. the caster is in control, the caster casts a spell and the opponent gets his chance with spell resolution. if the caster is still looking at his spell cards you can declare that you wish to dispel his RiP spell.



Both players must agree on when to end a phase in order to play according to the spirit of the game IMO. The spirit of the game is subjective. Warhammer is a game of warring nations, racial hatred, evil and chaos, to think that different races must be nice and kind boggles the mind.
Dark elves are inherently untrustworthy as are skaven.

Playing by the rules is a different matter altogether, you can fudge some things in friendly games, Oh you missed the charge by a 1/2" , I'll let you have it, oh I forgot to reform, you can do it etc...

In serious games if you forget things, too bad, 3mm outside generals presence too bad. forgot to use your champ, or that something had a ward save... Too bad. if the rules state that the casting player can end the phase then so be it. there is a difference between being fair and cheating. ending the Magic phase to benefit you, is not cheating.

Guttmuncher
23-12-2011, 15:34
I agree and disagree with Dirty Mac. His logic is flawed by saying he'd cast a big spell then call his turn done before his opponent could react. that would mean his spell effect wouldnt happen either since you have to dispell before it takes place. However, I do agree that a given magic phase is over once neither party has any dice to do anything with.

SanDiegoSurrealist
23-12-2011, 18:41
My final thought on it is if Player A says, "OK I am done with my magic; time for the shooting phase." and Player B does not say, "Wait, wait! I still have dispel dice I would like to use." then yes Player B has forfeit his opportunity to dispel and the magic phase is over.
Because that is the way that is most fair and that is the way, it has been being played since the games inception.

GodlessM
23-12-2011, 19:35
Spirit of the game arguments are unnecessary as this is, quite frankly, ********. The magic phase is over when both players have no more actions left to do in it. Everyone knows this, it is basic rules. Of course the semantics of such things wouldn't matter if some players realised that Warhammer and life skill are not one in the same and as such winning by being a giant **** isn't in anyway impressive or significant. Things like this are the reason I started playing 40k.

Dirty Mac
23-12-2011, 19:39
My final thought on it is if Player A says, "OK I am done with my magic; time for the shooting phase." and Player B does not say, "Wait, wait! I still have dispel dice I would like to use." then yes Player B has forfeit his opportunity to dispel and the magic phase is over.
Because that is the way that is most fair and that is the way, it has been being played since the games inception.

That is what would happen at 90% of home games, but remember , this "trick" got pulled at a tournament, where "fairness" isn't a Priority. As long as it is legal by the rules, then you have to play it that way, if your opponent insists.

herohammer
24-12-2011, 04:27
If the phase ended when the player currently taking their turn declared it to be you could block RIP spells from being dispelled by immediately declaring the phase to be over at the start without attempting to cast anything.

Dirty Mac
24-12-2011, 06:00
If the phase ended when the player currently taking their turn declared it to be you could block RIP spells from being dispelled by immediately declaring the phase to be over at the start without attempting to cast anything.

Yes that's true, and that's how it is. It sounds bad, and unfair, but the ball is in the casting players court. it's in the rule book. It's like i said before. if the casting player only has a single wizard, and rolls 1 or 2 on the first casting attempt, then barring magic items that allow you to get out of situations like that, then magic phase is over and all of the opponent Dispel dice are useless.

now if i wanted to be nice I could allow the opponent to use them to dispel RIP spells, but I'd be breaking the rules.

Korraz
24-12-2011, 09:51
Unless the other player calls a judge because of your bull.
All these rules arguments forget the human component and how stuff like this won't fly in reality.

Dirty Mac
24-12-2011, 11:18
Unless the other player calls a judge because of your bull.
All these rules arguments forget the human component and how stuff like this won't fly in reality.

But it's not bull, that's the point.

The rule book states that "When the casting players has finished all his casting attempts, either because he has run out of power dice, or has no remaining or useful spells to cast, (or if all his wizards have had their concentration broken by failing to cast a spell) the Magic phase ends and the shooting phase begins.

It's black and white. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it "Bull"

If I stuff my dice rolls, and fail to cast, too bad for me and too bad for you. next phase begins.

Goldenwolf
24-12-2011, 14:25
See Page 37, the very end. It very clearly states that the magic phase is over.

Lord Inquisitor
24-12-2011, 20:07
What about moving magical vortexes and other effects that happen "at the end of the magic phase"?

GodlessM
24-12-2011, 21:25
What about moving magical vortexes and other effects that happen "at the end of the magic phase"?

They don't happen and the 'end of magic phase' doesn't exist because player A said so :rolleyes:

The Atavist
24-12-2011, 22:39
They don't happen and the 'end of magic phase' doesn't exist because player A said so :rolleyes:

Damn straight. Cause what I say goes!:cheese:

Dirty Mac
24-12-2011, 23:44
Not sure about that. the book says the magic phase ends, and the book also states that the vortexes are resolved at the end of the phase, so maybe they can be resolved. but dispelling RIP spells is done "During" the phase, once it's at the end it's not "During" anymore.

vorthrax
25-12-2011, 16:45
Lots of things can and do happen at the "end of phase." Vortexes and Shield of Thorns are just two examples that come to mind and happen to relate to the magic phase specifically. The "end of phase" is a perfectly legitimate point for things to happen IN that phase.

Zentdiam
30-12-2011, 13:06
So overall the problem is nothing states what the end of the phase is, fun. So even if a tournament allowed you to yell phase done and be forced to move on it would be known after the first time it was done and all I have to do is yell DISPELL while you are finishing your sentence from then on. You would also be branded as a complete tool and better hope there's not a sportsmanship score.

This is one of those cases where RAW vs RAI aside, doing it would make you hated almost all the time. It is your choice whether or not to do it but, if you did this to me in a pickup game I would pack up and leave. No sense in playing someone who refuses to even have the slightest bit of manners or sportsmanship.

Damocles8
30-12-2011, 18:21
I think GW should ammend it to say that the opponent has a chance to dispell RiP spells immediately after power dice are rolled and channeling is finished.

Noght
03-01-2012, 03:34
I think GW should ammend it to say that the opponent has a chance to dispell RiP spells immediately after power dice are rolled and channeling is finished.

Many people will do this with Throne of Vines RIP especially if the Winds of Magic are low enough to prevent the recast + 6 dice IF attempt. You can attempt to dispel at any time during the subsequent magic phase, yours or his. I always ask before proceeding, it's good sportsmanship and has a tactical advantage of sucking up dispel dice.

The whole argument about "if you dispel the RIP but I'll recast it, so don't dispel it" seems silly. Go ahead. Maybe you fail. Maybe you cast it with IF and get sucked into the warp on the 2nd attempt.

Noght

Siphon
03-01-2012, 05:02
People trying to deny the casting player whose turn it is the option of using his dice to recast are just as shady as the people trying to end the casting phase and deny the other player from dispelling.

The dispelling player should always have the option to use his dice and if the casting player has dice left after the dispel and can now cast a spell he couldn't previously, he should get the chance to use his dice.

Besides, I don't see how this is really a problem. How many of these timing issues have been decided in FAQs saying, "The player whose turn it is decides the order."

The dispelling player can choose to dispel the RIP spell at the end of the phase and if the casting player has dice left he can choose to recast his spell after that since he decides the order of the actions. If the dispelling player does not choose to dispel it, the phase ends since the casting player has nothing left he can cast.

I guess since there is no FAQ for this, it's not official but how about a little common sense please?