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TheSaylesMan
12-12-2011, 06:46
I'm sure we've all heard the rumors about 6th edition approaching and with it the resurgence of Chaos as the ultimate big and nasty antagonist. With that said I'm sure many of you have also heard the rumor that they'd be getting three books. One of those books would be a new and refurbished Daemons codex. I for one was dissatisfied with how they were represented in their original book as far as fluff goes. Daemons that are supposed to be hated enemies being able to be fielded side-by-side just bugged me.

So I'm looking for an opinion. How would you like it if the codex took a completely different route? Namely, the vast bulk of the book being of newly created Unaligned Daemons with options for taking the Aligned ones? Like an 0-1 Aligned Greater Daemon choice and a handful of aligned choices to fill out your Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support. Then there would be the Special Characters that allow a certain Aligned Daemon as a troops choice. However, there would be an option for a completely Unaligned force led by a build-it-yourself Daemonic Master with rules similar to those you use to construct your own C'tan Shard like in the new Codex: Necrons. There have been powerful Undivided Daemons spread throughout the books and the RPGs but they have never seen use on the tabletop.

So, the short version is, would you rather see a redone Daemon codex in the same vein as before with a ragtag mix of different Gods' Daemons or would you like a release of a brand new line of never-before-seen units with model support while the old favorites get put in a smaller role?

teheuax
12-12-2011, 07:12
While I do think that the gods shouldn't be able to mix freely, I don't think their units should take the back seat. I would say both, keep the gods units in the front and add more undivided units like there is a fifth god

The Death of Reason
12-12-2011, 09:17
Scrap the current 'dexes and make 4 chaos armies with a mix of daemons, renegates/cultist and space marines. The other way is just not near 'chaosy' enough.

And even though worship of pure chaos is the coolest, then either dump it, or make models to support it - which would be a waste, since kids wants their boob daemons, killy sword daemons of doom, pimpled nerd daemons and their super sorcerors for easy identification.

Cheeslord
12-12-2011, 11:54
Personally I'd like to see options for chaos undivided greater daemons and troops, and soulforge, so you could field a faction-neutral army if you want. Plus cultists to avoid having to all deepstrike and die.

I don't know about banning taking more than 1 great power however - sounds a bit like gimping players creativity, and its not like the 4 powers are simple representations of the elements - they are not opposing pairs but keep shifting in alliance so it would be hard to say "well, you can't field Khorne with Tzeentch, because Khorne hates sorcery lots, but ... uh... nurgle hates slaanesh more than any other power?"

I play Chaos Daemons at the moment, and would personally be a bit sad (and probably stop collecting them) if they became just a sub-option for CSM (which apparently they were in the past, but that was before my time).

Mark.

brightblade
12-12-2011, 12:08
My regular opponent has a daemon army and the major issue we have with it is the deployment. Whether you make your roll, for which half of your list you get, or not you still have half your army battered by the whole of your opponent's for at least a turn. It means you are on the back foot all the time.

We are talking about some kind warp rift deployment tool. Kind of like a webway portal. Or even make it so units with fleet can assault the turn they arrive, maybe with the purchase of a special daemon.

The deployment is really the big issue for us. It seems fluffy but a little unfair to the daemon player. Especially in those games where reserves turn up slowly. It seems that every army has a way of buffing it's weakness with the purchase of buffing abilities but not daemons. I don't even play them and think they need help! :D

zerodemon
12-12-2011, 13:39
I would like to see daemons available to Chaos Legions dedicated to one god (i.e. World Eaters can take actual khorne daemons, instead of a generic one.) Word Bearers, Black Legion, etc. should be able to take only a generic kind of daemon.

As for a Daemon codex, their should be cultist entries.

PapaDoc
12-12-2011, 14:23
I wouldn´t want any kind of restriction on such a weak army like chaos daemons. I would want it rather matt ward like. ****** fluff & fun rules.

Chapters Unwritten
12-12-2011, 14:41
I would like the Daemon army a lot more if it were designed with all the crazed deployments in mind, and if it were automatic.

One thing that needs to go is the whole "oops we were born inside a rock lol mishap FTL" aspect. I understand these daemons are wild abberations from another dimension and all, but this sort of thing pretty much never happens in the stories.

I think things would be a bit cooler if you could take some warp portals which alter the board with a big LOS-blocking terrain piece that could then be marketed by GW. Units deploying from the warp portals (which are, in turn, deep-struck on turn 1) would make a lot more sense than the randomly appearing forces. At least then players would have some control over it.

Kind of a weird idea, but I would like to see the daemon players get more control over the army. At the very least, the amount of danger involved due to deep strike mishap should be minimized somewhat.

brightblade
12-12-2011, 14:49
I would like the Daemon army a lot more if it were designed with all the crazed deployments in mind, and if it were automatic.

One thing that needs to go is the whole "oops we were born inside a rock lol mishap FTL" aspect. I understand these daemons are wild abberations from another dimension and all, but this sort of thing pretty much never happens in the stories.

I think things would be a bit cooler if you could take some warp portals which alter the board with a big LOS-blocking terrain piece that could then be marketed by GW. Units deploying from the warp portals (which are, in turn, deep-struck on turn 1) would make a lot more sense than the randomly appearing forces. At least then players would have some control over it.

Kind of a weird idea, but I would like to see the daemon players get more control over the army. At the very least, the amount of danger involved due to deep strike mishap should be minimized somewhat.

Could not agree more. The deep striking portal was the way we were going. And we are from Brum too! Great minds beby! :D

KarlPedder
12-12-2011, 15:24
Wasn't the old system that Khorne + Nurgle were ok and Slanesh + Tzeentch were ok?

LonelyPath
12-12-2011, 15:26
Excellent with the DS warp rifts and makes much more sense than the current deployment rules.

madden
12-12-2011, 15:32
To right, I love my daemons but there deployment method really ticks me as my lot use 25%+ terrain so lots of dangerous tests/mishaps and a city fight game has killed 3/4 of my army before a shot has been fired (not all the time but more often then not) otherwise I don't mind them as they are.

Aluinn
12-12-2011, 15:40
I always though it would be nice if they could have Infiltrating cultist units on the board that would eliminate the chance of scattering for Daemons entering nearby (possibly with Stealth and at a fairly low cost per model, so that they couldn't easily just be shot off the board by an opponent who got first turn), maybe even in a pretty large radius, like 12-18".

I also think they ought to have a chance to deploy at least half of their army normally, and probably all of it, if they really want to. I realize that Daemons are summoned or manifest from the Warp "spontaneously", or whatever, but ... they can't walk around for more than a hundred yards after that? I mean, why exactly is it impossible for them to stroll onto a battlefield like anyone else if they can exist in the material world, again? It doesn't make sense. And, from a balance perspective, I believe it's necessary, because there are some situations where Deep Striking your entire army is going to result in a loss barring miraculous dice rolls or truly magnificent derpery from your opponent.

brightblade
12-12-2011, 15:45
I think the units themselves are fine just the randomness of deployment. I could understand it if there was a way around it but there is nothing! I have played them many times and I lose some units but usually I just shoot them to pieces before they can get amongst me in numbers enough to really damage me. It is frustrating for my buddy because as he puts it 'It's the same every game, I deep strike, you pull back a little and overwhelm units with massed firepower and co-ordinated assault. Then wait for the next wave.'

I have to agree with him. He either DS's so far away I have time to shoot him or he lands in my face in such restricted numbers I can cope. Odd. Then I watched him play vs gk's at a tournament..... now that was pointless.... ;)

I have to agree with putting units on from the start. Infiltrating or somesuch. To represent daemons infesting the ruins... it does seem odd that armies are always ready for the daemonic assault. Maybe a shrouding rule on the turn they arrive, ie roll 2d6x2 to see them? Preferably combinations of the above?

zerodemon
12-12-2011, 15:49
We play cityfight almost exclusively. We make daemon deep strike optional. You can deploy any amount of your army normally or enter them in to the deep strike party. You divide the deep strike party in two and etc. etc. It is an option, not an imperative. We did this to make the army competitive. Now they hold their own.

Chapters Unwritten
12-12-2011, 18:45
It's a pretty decent army once you strip that handicap. I feel the handicap isn't really that bad, but taking control away from the player really ruins things for them.

If they have to deploy oddly, the least they could do is make it so that they can't mishap as easily.

Also, where's the psyker issues? Isn't the whole point of the daemon army that it can manifest after a psyker recklessly uses their powers? There should be some sort of "Psyker gets perils, a fresh warp rift appears nearby" thing.

brightblade
12-12-2011, 18:54
Ha ha. It looks like we are all on the same page! A strange thing on warseer!

I totally agree that psychic activity nearby should have an effect. Daemons are 'of' the warp after all. How about any psychic power used within 24" of a daemon unit adds d3 (or d6) models to the daemon unit?

There you go, that should set the cat amoung the pigeons. ;)

TheSaylesMan
12-12-2011, 20:05
Consensus seems to be "More Undivided Daemons would be cool, but I don't want to have my Aligned Daemons taken from me." Also, "change the deployment rules!" but that's not the topic of the thread so I'll leave that one alone.

So how about this. All of the Lesser Daemons of the gods take up Elites slots. However, if you were to take a Greater Daemon of the Gods than it makes the corresponding Lesser Daemon a troops choice. That way you could take say, both a Great Unclean One and a Bloodthirster and both Plaguebearers and Bloodletters would become troops choices. Then, there would be other Aligned choices throughout the other slots. So it could be entirely possible to create Undivided, Aligned or Mixed armies.

Also, I'm quite a fan of the idea that each God gets their own codex. The likelihood of that happening is probably incredibly slim but its still something I'd enjoy. That way you could fit in the more esoteric units and wargear aligned to a god without worry that it would unduly take up space in the other Chaos books.

Chapters Unwritten
12-12-2011, 21:05
I think cultists could have a decent place in a daemon list, too, if executed well.

druchii
12-12-2011, 23:01
Weird.

If people started limiting my army based on "fluffy" god alignment, I'd throw it out the window. Fluff is neat, but game balance and playability are paramount. GW should not, and can not try to limit the demon codex by alignment because then they'll essentially be designing FOUR armies with the SAME units. I mean really, there are almost 0 mono-god armies that are viable within the current (AND past books), and this is because the units representing various gods are one dimensional, lopsided units. Plague bearers have nearly 0 mobility and combat potential, while Bloodletters are quite fragile, but very choppy.

The chaos gods DO hate each other, but they hate everyone else more. I'm continually stumped as to why people have issues with this.

Finally, am I the only person that sees my entire deep striking army as a BENEFIT? I mean that's the reason demons are actually competitive! Try running bloodletters across the game table, terrible idea. The fact that we can deep strike in peoples' faces is a massive boon for pretty much every demon army, and truth be told, we suffer from the same "issues" as other deep striking armies, but they do just fine!

There are a few things I'd like in the demon book:

Access to psychic defense. I mean really, we're MADE out of the warp, you think shooting pieces of it at a demon should do all that much damage? It'd be as easy as putting psychic hoods on lords of change and bloodthirsters.

Reserves control/bonuses:
A mechanic to help with reserves roles. Yup. Sort of like descent of angles, or psychic communion. Even something as easy as "one unit a turn can re-roll their scatter roll" would be great. Or give Slaanesh things the tyranid Lictor rule: pheromone trail.

Oh hey, how cool would it be if nurgle units (not all of the, necessarily) got entropic strike?

Greater demons who actually effect out armies? If vulkan can twin link all his meltas, I don't think it's too much to ask that A Bloodthirster gets to reroll his missed attacks, and that he gives specific units preferred enemy too, right? How about Lords of Change who bump up the BS of a horror unit (oh, hey, make horrors useful too!).

Also, keep cultists out of my demon book. They're fine in a Lost and the Damned list (which I want back too!) but not in my demon army.

d

Scammel
12-12-2011, 23:25
If I were going to change Daemons in any way, it would be to allow the Daemon player to place D3 indestructable icons on the table before deployment.

KronusDaSneaky
13-12-2011, 00:00
It's a pretty decent army once you strip that handicap. I feel the handicap isn't really that bad, but taking control away from the player really ruins things for them.

If they have to deploy oddly, the least they could do is make it so that they can't mishap as easily.

Also, where's the psyker issues? Isn't the whole point of the daemon army that it can manifest after a psyker recklessly uses their powers? There should be some sort of "Psyker gets perils, a fresh warp rift appears nearby" thing.

I had similar thoughts on the Psyker front. Personally I think using psychic powers should be extra powerful but unstable when fighting daemons reflecting both their vulnerability to warp based attacks (historically vulnerable to psyhic powers and force weapons etc) and the increased danger presented by succombing to the perils of the warp.

I would give all psychic powers directed at daemons rerolls to wound (obviously does not affect powers that do not roll to wound) to representing their strength.

At the same time any psychic power cast within 12" of a daemon will suffer perils on any roll of double when casting. This reflects the increased danger posed to psykers for using the warp in such unstable conditions as a daemonic assault. If perils is suffered in this manner, rather then take a single wound the model is removed from play, its soul being consumed by the daemons and in their place a deamonic portal manifests which is used like a WWP. As per normal Invulnerable Saves are allowed with successful rolls needing to be rerolled. Please note any power that would ordinary pass still goes off and is resolved as normal irrespective of the psykers fate.

Charistoph
13-12-2011, 03:55
Also, keep cultists out of my demon book. They're fine in a Lost and the Damned list (which I want back too!) but not in my demon army.

So don't take them. I would think that they would be useful for non-Deep Striking Icons, if nothing else.


I had similar thoughts on the Psyker front. Personally I think using psychic powers should be extra powerful but unstable when fighting daemons reflecting both their vulnerability to warp based attacks (historically vulnerable to psyhic powers and force weapons etc) and the increased danger presented by succombing to the perils of the warp.

I would give all psychic powers directed at daemons rerolls to wound (obviously does not affect powers that do not roll to wound) to representing their strength.

At the same time any psychic power cast within 12" of a daemon will suffer perils on any roll of double when casting. This reflects the increased danger posed to psykers for using the warp in such unstable conditions as a daemonic assault. If perils is suffered in this manner, rather then take a single wound the model is removed from play, its soul being consumed by the daemons and in their place a deamonic portal manifests which is used like a WWP. As per normal Invulnerable Saves are allowed with successful rolls needing to be rerolled. Please note any power that would ordinary pass still goes off and is resolved as normal irrespective of the psykers fate.

Why 12", why not the whole board? Of course, that last could be limited to a certain gift, or even a certain character.

It would be characteristic if a Gate appeared where a Perils test was failed, and be very useful as well IF the army still had to Deep Strike every Daemon.

Also, another odd thought, what if you could improve your Reserves roll by based on the number of Gates and/or Icons on the board (not even necessarily 1:1, but say +1 for 1-2, +2 for 3-5, +3 for 6+).

Additionally, what if Icons could open Gates if the model performs no other actions that turn (i.e. Heavy 1). They could then move the Gate later by performing the same action.

Chem-Dog
13-12-2011, 05:45
Here's how I'd play it.
1:Increase the number of units available to each god, there's so much scope for variation in the Daemonic host that it's a real shame we got one and a half new units in the Daemons list (Soulgrinder and Heralds).

Emphasize Khorne's militaristic aspect by giving Bloodletters variable weapon options (with differing effects), Axes, Swords, Spears, Javelins or even Crossbows. Blood Crushers become Khorne's elite Cavalry, perhaps even a more heavily armoured version that represents seasoned 'Letters (of which Skulltaker then becomes the "captain"). Hell why not throw in a jugger drawn artillery piece?

Expand on Nurgle's carnivalesque nature, make the GUO and HoN into ringleaders of the necrotic cavalcade. Introduce Daemons that fly on pestilential wings, or burrow up from the ground like grubs or float by virtue of bladders full of necrotic gas. Ravenor Trilogy readers might remember Hooktors, throw them in.

Give Tzeench true reign over "magic" rather than a bunch of thinly veiled shooting attacks, allow his daemons to manipulate time, space and matter. Tzeench Daemons should be able to out forsee virtually anyone. Bring back Blue and Pink horrors and make two of the blue ones sprout up every time a pink one gets killed (seriously, how much of a headache would it REALLY be?). Make Disks and Screamers distinct from one another rather than this half-hearted combo we have now, then make Disc Cavalry happen.

Slaanesh. Slaanesh currently makes one kind of Daemon, they're all flimsy, fast and have pincers. Why not chuck a brute or two in there, it's not like the Darkling Prince can't be inclined to admire strength. Lets get some serpenty things back in there too, there was a time that was kinda Slaanesh's thing. Slaanesh is a god with no attention span when it comes to a design philosophy, so any Daemons you can make up will be relatively easy to introduce to his menagerie. How about Slavers who herd some pathetic little daemonic creatures around or ride bigger pathetic daemonic creatures? And if ever there was a unit name that should be included in Slaanesh's lot, Concubines would be it (or Courtesans if you wanna be vaguely pg13 about it)!


----

2:Re-dress "Undivided" as a fallen power that preceeded the big four (if you want to call the big 4 a pantheon, "Undivided" would be something akin to Kronos). It is at once all of chaos and apart from it, exisiting before each of the big four (the "Upstart pantheon") existed and being the stuff from which they grew. It's aims are to test and overthrow it's children and usurpers truly embodying the lawlessness of "Chaos" as a concept, rejecting the "order" each one of them would bestow upon the universe. This would neatly re-aquire Malaal's schtic (even if he/she/it can't be given the name, we'd know it's him/her/it).

Few mortals would know of this proto-god, mistaking the scant references to him through time as archaic references to the concept as a whole or a non specific threat of the combined efforts of the big 4, the few mortals that know of it and have, perhaps, retained their sanity would refer to it as The Primordial Annihilator.....
To this end of undoing the "order" of the four, "Undivided" aids each of the gods and ther servants in their endeavours only to perpetuate a stalemate in which no power can gain true acendancy, for the Primordial Annihilator can only be defeated if one God defeats the other three and, in doing so, absorbs them and it into themself.

His/her/it's Daemons would be insubstantial things in comparison to the servants of the upstarts, having lost a good deal of their power when the four split from "Chaos", to him will flock the wraiths and spectres rejected by the others. The Furies are his eyes and they are everywhere, all manner of shades and ghouls lurk, willing to do harm to those who had spurned them and made sport of their humiliation and to reaquire a portion of their master's might in vanquishing the hated foe. And in the warp, unknown to even the upstarts "Chaos" steals their mightiest Daemons from under their noses as his Forge of Souls with the promise of personal power beyond that which the upstarts will ever willingly share with their followers.

If Khorne is red, Tzeench blue, Slaanesh purple and Nurgle green this Power-that-is-the-first would be deepest black And it would be purest white, it would be all colours and none.

Obviously this would then require some cool models to make a truly "undivided" army consisting only of Daemons that do not bear alliegance to any of the pantheon. This would be the place all people who've gone to efforts to make their own "Summoned Daemons" that are distict from the big four would be able to shine. Being the outcasts of the Daemonic realm or the revenants of once powerful Daemons that served "Chaos" there would be no uniform apperance.
Not sure how one would then make a bunch of models for that....but this is a stream-of-conciousness pie-in-the-sky post anyway ;)

----

3: Thow the old rivalries back into the mix. Not sure on the best way to do it, out-and out banning a Khorne heavy army from including Slaaneshi models (ect) seems a little harsh, but given we've already got 0.5 HQ options in the shape of heralds, some kind of "include an HQ belonging to a specific god if you want to recruit his Daemons mechanic" would be the best way to go probably. This allows one to go full-on and include all four with the aid of a herald from each but will begin to rewuire you to leave one of the parties at home if you want something like a GD in your army (such high ranking Daemons are particularly loath to fight alongside their hated foes).
Similarly if you include any of greater servants of "The-one-who-was-first" you'll be leaving one of the Pantheon's factions behind fitting the idea that those Daemons are working against a specific member of the pantheon at this time. Obviously the T1WW1st's followers would be willing to fight alongside all of the others if it serves their master's own objectives, so they would have no specific "rivalry" that prohibits their inclusion.




Think that does it.
Other than replacing the silly deployment rules. DSing "rifts" seems like a nice neat way of going about it. I'd probably make certain Daemons able to create rifts (as a wargear style one-shot-deal option or as a reward for doing something on the table, like killing an MC or IC, managing to cause a Perils-of-the-warp test that kills a psyker or somesuch).
I'd make rifts move too (each turn roll for DS using the rift's current location and scatter accordingly with all normal effects, like mishaps. Can be off-set by specific Daemons with specific powers). Possibly even make them so they might close (or be vunlnerable to being closed).

Oh, and I'd make Daemonic "Psychic powers" actually WORK like psychic powers, allowing them to be blocked by people able to do so and allowing them to be boosted by various abilities (like being one of Tzeench's Daemons or being close to a rift).

Really think that's it this time.....

Arijharn
13-12-2011, 07:36
I realize this is kind of flippant, but did you notice that the Bloodletter's in the Space Marine computer game didn't suffer any Deep Strike mishaps at all yet still worked pretty effectively? :D

Askari
13-12-2011, 08:58
I totally agree that psychic activity nearby should have an effect. Daemons are 'of' the warp after all. How about any psychic power used within 24" of a daemon unit adds d3 (or d6) models to the daemon unit?

There you go, that should set the cat amoung the pigeons. ;)

It sure would, I'd absolutely LOVE d3 more Bloodthirsters with Blessings everytime Grey Knights use psychic powers :evilgrin:

Otherwise, ChemDog's got it right,

ihavetoomuchminis
13-12-2011, 10:00
I support the ideas around the warp drifts a la Webway portal. Maybe DS'ing them after the deployment with the Drop Pod Rules. 1d3 rifts would be great, and i like this too:


I'd probably make certain Daemons able to create rifts (as a wargear style one-shot-deal option or as a reward for doing something on the table, like killing an MC or IC, managing to cause a Perils-of-the-warp test that kills a psyker or somesuch).

Give some units the option to DS, instead of Warp-rifting.

I would make Daemon Princes 1-3 in unit size and adjust the points cost of their options (it's redonkulous that a fully equipped Slaanesh DP costs more than a KoS). Many of their options should cost a 33-50% less.

Winged Daemon Princes (with slightly different options, no 3+ armour save, but a 4+) as a Fast Attack Option (1-3 unit size).

I would also give something more to the marks in the DP's (you can see i like Daemon princes) while taking something from them. Something like (point costs adjusted to proper values).

-Khorne: +1A and Furious Charge. Rage (the rule that forces the model to assault and move to the closer enemy).
-Nurgle: +1T and FNP. -2I.
-Slaanesh: +1I and Fleet. No 3+ save option.
-Tzeentch: +1 to the INvulnerable save and Daemonic Gaze (shooty unit). -2 WS.

More Soulforge Options. Option to give them marks.

Another unit per God.

Psychic defense. How do Tyranids have SiTW and Daemons have...nothing?

Cheaper troops. 1-2 points reduction.

Balance elites and Fast Attack units. At the moment, bloodcrushers own everything else in Elite, and FA is lackluster.

Adjust points for upgrades or improve the upgrades. Bolt of Tzeentch should have the melta rule and cost less (35 points in the DP or 30 in a Flamer of Tzeentch is a steal).

Wishing
13-12-2011, 12:25
Personally I would revamp the entire daemon system, and make a variety of generic unmarked daemon characters and units (including hounds, beasts, swarms etc), and then give every model type the option to upgrade to a specific god in order to create the models that are available to buy. I.e. you start with a lesser daemon warriors unit, which you can upgrade to khorne and make them bloodletters, or upgrade to nurgle for plaguebearers.
At least that's what I've done with my own homebrew daemon list.

Konovalev
13-12-2011, 15:30
I think the next codex should play a little more on the possession, corruption, warp signature aspect of daemons.

Remove the random wave and let us pick our wave. Keep the deployment via deepstrike. Let the daemon player nominate D3 enemy units that have been possessed/corrupted/etc and those units count as icons for the remainder of the game. Let all psykers count as icons as well, because that's just fluffy.

brightblade
13-12-2011, 16:47
Why not go a bit further and have an 'assassin style' (limited number/pts cost?)daemon who can possess an enemy model? Simply make it a ld check for your opponent if they fail, they become a daemon. Modify the roll by subtracting the number of identical models in a unit from the ld value. Ha, that should do it.

So in a five model tactical squad with a sarge and a spec weapon (combat squadded) , the daemon player nominates a boltgun equipped marine. Marine player checks ld at minus 3. Fails with a roll of 8. One of the boltgun marines is removed and becomes a bloodletter (or similar) and the squad counts as being charged! Chances are the lone daemon will get battered but maybe. . . Just to change it up for a bit of fun ;)

Chem-Dog
13-12-2011, 19:33
Personally I would revamp the entire daemon system, and make a variety of generic unmarked daemon characters and units (including hounds, beasts, swarms etc), and then give every model type the option to upgrade to a specific god in order to create the models that are available to buy. I.e. you start with a lesser daemon warriors unit, which you can upgrade to khorne and make them bloodletters, or upgrade to nurgle for plaguebearers.

This has a certain simple elegance to it (I like rules to be elegant) but the problem then evolves into exactly how one goes about explaining these variations, for example, are all basic Daemon troops choices "Generic Daemonic Foot Troop" + Mark of the God? It might work as a template for the guys in the troops section, but what about in the Elites section? It gets pretty tricky to boil down Flamers, Bloodcrushers, Fiends and Beasts to a single usable common stat line and have the "Mark of Whoever" alter them to satisfactorily represent that unit (Bloodcrusers and Fiends are more different than any sensible "Mark" system would allow for).

I'm of the opinion separately statted units should be available for each of the sub-factions (if only to avoid horrible homogenisation) and that any particular "Mark" should be less of a signifier of specific ability and more of an indication of who they will work with and who certain abilities do and don't work on them (Nurgle is pretty good at having powers that don't affect models with the Mark of Nurgle, for example). By all means have Nurglitch Daemons with high Toughness and FNP if that's what you want and all Khornate creatures have furious charge and so on, but don't make that define the possession of a Mark. Make it about a Daemon's place in the complex heirachy and "society" of the Daemonic.

Gorbad Ironclaw
13-12-2011, 21:54
I think Wishing is onto something though. While it might need a little practical work I do think that the real key to producing a good Demon book is to give enough options to actually make it possible to create varied and good lists. As such I think the idea of "generic" options that can then be changed with marks is good, although I wouldn't stick to just the current list of demons. Instead I think an approach to take would be to create a whole range of units fulfilling the different roles you want in the army. Heavy infantry, light infantry, fast moving assault, big "monsters", multi-wound infantry, etc. You can then flavour these units based on your god/theme, and maybe accept that not all gods will have access to all the different units. Preferably it would create a range of new options for each good though to fill out most of these niche and actually create a full list. It might well mean that GW won't produce models for all options of all choices though.

As for undivided demons, I'm not a fan of those at all. Demons are created as manifestations of aspects of the Chaos gods. The idea of unaligned/undivided demons are just strange to me, who/what created them and where did they come from. It doesn't really make any sense. Now you could introduce several minor gods and include several new options to represent there demons without giving them the whole range of units, but I'm really not in favour of undivided demons.

Charistoph
13-12-2011, 22:08
As for undivided demons, I'm not a fan of those at all. Demons are created as manifestations of aspects of the Chaos gods. The idea of unaligned/undivided demons are just strange to me, who/what created them and where did they come from. It doesn't really make any sense. Now you could introduce several minor gods and include several new options to represent there demons without giving them the whole range of units, but I'm really not in favour of undivided demons.

Not quite. Aligned daemons are created as manifestations of the Chaos Gods. Daemons in general are coalesced manifestations of sentient thought, emotion, and energy. The 4 Chaos Gods just happen to be the strongest in the 40K universe because of the nature of their universe. There are more Lesser Gods and Primal Beings in the Warp than we can put in a proper codex.

Gorbad Ironclaw
13-12-2011, 22:34
But why then do we have random manifestations in the Codex: Chaos Demons? Surely that should be the list of chaos aligned warp manifestations, or to put it another way, the warp born servants of the Chaos gods. Or is it just supposed to be a collection of every malevolent warp entities that might show up? I just find that the idea of Undivided Demons undermine the whole concept of Chaos Demons in the first place and really doesn't have any place in the setting. Demons of minor gods, fine. Unaligned demons? Not so much.

Wishing
13-12-2011, 22:42
This has a certain simple elegance to it (I like rules to be elegant) but the problem then evolves into exactly how one goes about explaining these variations, for example, are all basic Daemon troops choices "Generic Daemonic Foot Troop" + Mark of the God? It might work as a template for the guys in the troops section, but what about in the Elites section? It gets pretty tricky to boil down Flamers, Bloodcrushers, Fiends and Beasts to a single usable common stat line and have the "Mark of Whoever" alter them to satisfactorily represent that unit (Bloodcrusers and Fiends are more different than any sensible "Mark" system would allow for).


Gorbad got the jist of it pretty well I think. You are of course correct that the traditional daemonic pantheon system doesn't work for what I proposed... as you say, the four traditional "daemonic beast" types really don't have that much in common (ie. beasts, fiends, flamers and flesh hounds), and it gets especially grating in the "daemonic steed" section (discs, steeds, juggernauts and nurglings). As such, new categories are required. For example, I've made a category called "daemonic hound", which is styled on the flesh hound, but which can be upgraded to any of the other gods too, so you can have plague hounds, musk hounds, or hex hounds (or whatever names you prefer) too. It's basically taking the "counts as" system that many players already use for daemon armies and making a rules system that actually covers it (mostly).


But why then do we have random manifestations in the Codex: Chaos Demons? Surely that should be the list of chaos aligned warp manifestations, or to put it another way, the warp born servants of the Chaos gods. Or is it just supposed to be a collection of every malevolent warp entities that might show up? I just find that the idea of Undivided Demons undermine the whole concept of Chaos Demons in the first place and really doesn't have any place in the setting. Demons of minor gods, fine. Unaligned demons? Not so much.

Maybe I don't understand you, but I think the idea is that there is really no difference between a daemon and a chaos god, so an unaligned daemon is basically just a minor chaos god in itself.

However, when I use the term "unaligned daemon", I don't tend to mean totally independent warp manifestations, I just mean a daemon of a minor patron god/daemon that nobody knows. Like in the Lost and the Damned book, they had a daemon prince who didn't follow any of the four gods (as far as I remember) called Kweethul, who had his own daemon followers (naff ones, but followers nonetheless). A daemonic steed of Kweethul (called a Fire Runner I think) would be what I would call an unaligned daemon steed, for example, because it's not aligned with what we know as the four chaos gods.

Charistoph
13-12-2011, 22:50
But why then do we have random manifestations in the Codex: Chaos Demons? Surely that should be the list of chaos aligned warp manifestations, or to put it another way, the warp born servants of the Chaos gods. Or is it just supposed to be a collection of every malevolent warp entities that might show up? I just find that the idea of Undivided Demons undermine the whole concept of Chaos Demons in the first place and really doesn't have any place in the setting. Demons of minor gods, fine. Unaligned demons? Not so much.

Would it be too much to point out that there IS a technically non-aligned daemon IN the codex (not counting Princes)?

I know Furies are crap, but still, they ARE in there.

Chem-Dog
14-12-2011, 05:15
It's basically taking the "counts as" system that many players already use for daemon armies and making a rules system that actually covers it (mostly).

This what I was trying to articulate my discomfort with, while the system is perfectly fine (and, like I said, ellegant), I would personally feel short changed by a Codex that simply gave me (a number off the top of my head) ten unit types and then just served it up with four or five different "Flavours".
The respective armies of the gods should be incredibly different, with different strengths and weaknesses of their own. While "Khorne Plaguebearers" and the like are fine for the player who wants everything to look nice and uniform whilst retaining the tactical flexibility of a mixed list in the current Codex I'd want a future Codex to drop all of the compromises it made with the Daemons in order to make them a theoretically usable army and add new Daemons to make them work.

Each of the Four (or five) should be a servicable faction in it's own right with options of different types of units within any part of the FoC (although I do think the HQ section is fine, a Greater Daemon and Lesser Champions is about right) so that rather than resorting to "counts as" there are a few choices that give the mono-god players a choice.

In fact, if anything, Plaguebearers of Khorne are an indication of the desire to play viable monogod lists, "I want to have an army that all belongs to God X" says the player "But to have a chance of playing a game where by demonic hindquarters aren't handed to me on a platter, I need units from God Y and God Z".

Adding a rivalry mechanic into the mix would help to off-set some of the potential for hideous combos created by having a lot more choices. Cleverly done it could elliminate the existance of No-brainer units.

Hypothetical Example*.
A Player with two GUOs wants his Nurgle force to have a bit more shooting potential, he can pick the relatively shooty "plague cannon" for a characterful addition to his Nurgly force OR he can look to the other gods to see what they offer.
Khorne's "wrath launcher" is quite good but doesn't offer the kind of ROF he'd like as it's a predominantly Anti Tank gun.
Slaanesh's "ardour blaster" hasn't got anywhere near the range he'd like.
Tzeench's, "sorcerous forge", on the other hand, hurls out a storm of shots that would put a squadron of Leman Russ Punnishers to shame and can do it from 48" away. However.....to be able to take the daemonic engine of a rival god one must have a suitably ranked member of their number overseeing it, that means sacrificing one of those valuable slots in the HQ section to a Tzeenchian Leader-Daemon. Perhaps it's even as bad as to say two Greater Daemons from opposed gods will not work together, meaning the Player has to drop his 2nd GUO to take a Herald of Tzeench.
It could even go as far as to say that prideful Greater Daemons (and perhaps Marked DP's) won't ever contemplate allying themselves with minions of their master's sworn enemy, the player's then left with the tricky question of wether the loss of 2 GUOs for the sake of an uber shooty unit is worth it.
Of course the Player could decide to run four Heralds, one from each power, and have a totally free choice but those GD's are awfully good....



when I use the term "unaligned daemon", I don't tend to mean totally independent warp manifestations, I just mean a daemon of a minor patron god/daemon that nobody knows.

This is where my thread of "Chaos" as a Protogenos father to the big four would slot in. Before the Gods there is the warp an in it is "Chaos" without specified form, without conciousness and without manifesto, it just is.
When the conciousness of mortal creatures start to echo in the warp "Chaos" changes and parts of it become separate and eventually coalesce into something that is "Aware" and eventually something that we know as a "Chaos God".
But these "Gods" have specified form and they have manifesto and their plans can be undone by the true lawlessness of the "Ancient Chaos" they were born from. In part this is manifested by the Chaos Gods' own rivalries, that each "God" has his polar opposite and then there is the "Ancient Chaos" itself the Primorial Annihilator.
A Daemon might be as much at peril from this mindless seething elemental force as a mortal being is from the Daemon, the stuff of it's creation and ultimate demise such as a man may be drowned in the water he needs to live.

And then perhaps, by virtue of the changes that mortal minds unknowingly wrought upon the warp the wild "Ancient Chaos", deprived of parts of itself that form the bodies of the four became aware itself and seeks only to retrieve it's missing parts, thus making it the Chaos that destroys Chaos. And of course, then, it would create it's own minions.


Would it be too much to point out that there IS a technically non-aligned daemon IN the codex (not counting Princes)?

I know Furies are crap, but still, they ARE in there.

Furies. The thing that bugged me about them in the Codex is they're basically "Souls" that no "God" can be arsed with, they didn't do that well in life and flip-flopped between worshiping different "Gods" at different times and are now cursed to a purgatorial existance on the peripheries of the Daemonic realms existing as carrion. In direct contradiction to everything we've been told that says mortal souls (of humans at least) don't have the substance to exist in the warp for any length of time, unless we then accept that becoming a Fury is not so much an unhappy consequence of a life of advantage seeking church swaping but and is an actual punishment meeted out by each of the Gods.

That's why I rolled them in to my Ancient Chaos spiel, it seemed more fitting that these disregarded pests were actually the eyes of the one that plots against all or perhaps even the outcast Daemons stripped of all rank and priveledge turning hatefully against those which have forsaken them OR even what happens when a Daemon continues to exist after a God's spark is removed from them....


*appologies for the names, they're lame, I know it. :o

Kakapo42
14-12-2011, 08:01
Now, I may be missing something somewhere, but wouldn't the simplest solution be to add several more units for each god, then make it so that there are viable builds for each god, like how there are multiple viable builds in the Dark Eldar codex?


Adding a rivalry mechanic into the mix would help to off-set some of the potential for hideous combos created by having a lot more choices. Cleverly done it could elliminate the existance of No-brainer units.

Hypothetical Example*.
A Player with two GUOs wants his Nurgle force to have a bit more shooting potential, he can pick the relatively shooty "plague cannon" for a characterful addition to his Nurgly force OR he can look to the other gods to see what they offer.
Khorne's "wrath launcher" is quite good but doesn't offer the kind of ROF he'd like as it's a predominantly Anti Tank gun.
Slaanesh's "ardour blaster" hasn't got anywhere near the range he'd like.
Tzeench's, "sorcerous forge", on the other hand, hurls out a storm of shots that would put a squadron of Leman Russ Punnishers to shame and can do it from 48" away. However.....to be able to take the daemonic engine of a rival god one must have a suitably ranked member of their number overseeing it, that means sacrificing one of those valuable slots in the HQ section to a Tzeenchian Leader-Daemon. Perhaps it's even as bad as to say two Greater Daemons from opposed gods will not work together, meaning the Player has to drop his 2nd GUO to take a Herald of Tzeench.
It could even go as far as to say that prideful Greater Daemons (and perhaps Marked DP's) won't ever contemplate allying themselves with minions of their master's sworn enemy, the player's then left with the tricky question of wether the loss of 2 GUOs for the sake of an uber shooty unit is worth it.
Of course the Player could decide to run four Heralds, one from each power, and have a totally free choice but those GD's are awfully good....

I like this idea, it would add an intriguing dimension to the choices a player would make, though it might alienate those who don't like to think that much about making a list. That may not be a bad thing in some instances though...

xxRavenxx
14-12-2011, 09:21
I liked the deepstrike deployment... up until Greyknights were released. I have played two singular games against the local GK player, and now don't bother. Warp rift is an army killer.

Two games. Zero casualties to the Greyknights. Daemons will need another way to enter the battlefield in their new book...

Wishing
14-12-2011, 09:28
This what I was trying to articulate my discomfort with, while the system is perfectly fine (and, like I said, ellegant), I would personally feel short changed by a Codex that simply gave me (a number off the top of my head) ten unit types and then just served it up with four or five different "Flavours".
The respective armies of the gods should be incredibly different, with different strengths and weaknesses of their own.

I do agree actually that a weakness of the system I proposed is a risk of blandness, since the differences within a given model type will be limited. However, making a range of incredibly different choices for each god and having enough choices within each to make viable and varied mono-god lists just seems like a hugely bloated and monolithic enterprise.

For example, in the current book we have an undivided daemon in the form of the Soul Grinder. In my version, he can be upgraded to belong to each of the four gods (with a new name etc. in all cases). In your version, there would have to be five (incredibly different) separate entries in the Soul Grinder slot, one unaligned and one for each god. So if the codex had the ten unit types you mention, it would end up with 50 separate, unique model types. While it sounds really cool, it also sounds just a bit mad.

Arijharn
17-12-2011, 11:54
To be honest, I don't really like Wishing's upgrade system mainly because of the 'bland' state of it. I'd rather see them knuckle down and pinpoint what particular roles the Daemons are good for and in what situation while equally 'balancing' them out not necessarily just within relation to each other, but externally as well. I don't have much experience beyond theorycrafting atm (I've yet to have a play around game with 40k Daemons) but the casual glance I've had over the Daemonette's seems to me that they're if anything pale Shadows compared to Bloodletter's although they are slightly better in some cases of armour penetration (but then again, we have other options) and getting into combat fractionally quicker.

The Devourer
17-12-2011, 15:14
1) I'd like to see deamons deploying by portals rather than deepstriking. They have always been shown to pour out of dimension tears rather than just appearing in individual units. At the start of the game deepstrike in 3 portal markers. Split the army like normal but the player choses which half drops first. These units are placed within 6 of the portals (split between the portals as the player desires). At the end of each turn the portals drift d6 in a random direction. Reserves can deepstrike in as normal or can enter from a portal. Any time a psyker gets perils daemons can depstrike withint 12 of them without scatter in their next turn.

2)Restrict the unit choices. Allow undivided armies but each aspect should be less effective than if it was in a monogod army. Undivided armies shouldn't be able to freely pick the best units. Make players take a unit of core daemons to unlock elite, FA or HS units- taking a large unit or plaguebearers allows you to take better nurgle units.
Give bonuses to monogod armies. A monogod armies should also get improved units, for example all tzeentch armies get a better ward save.