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View Full Version : What to do vs the Ogre mage-neuter combo ?!



Texhnolyze
12-12-2011, 15:33
Hey!

Just a small question, what should I do to protect the casters in my Vampire counts army, when I face of against an ogre player using death and Greedy first ?!

I just don't know how to keep my caster from loosing all his magic levels...

Just feels wrong that ogres are able to strip any wizard in the game, buy just getting one death spell of...

on d26 hits, its rather easy to roll more than 4... and then the greedy fist removes one magic level for each hit scored... ouch!

Any ideas how to keep my casters safe? magic is rather important in a VC army.

Thanks!

Mercules
12-12-2011, 15:39
Hmmmm... the reverse situation of, "How do I protect against Purple Sun being thrown at my Ogres over and over." always had the ultimate answer of "Kill the model throwing Purple Sun." so I guess that is the same answer for the VC player about the Ogre caster. After all, having actual ogres on the table is very important to the Ogre army.

Dreadlordpaul
12-12-2011, 15:53
Just purple sun his army and watch his ogres cry like the big lumps they are

Mercules
12-12-2011, 15:55
Just purple sun his army and watch his ogres cry like the big lumps they are

And this is why I have no sympathy. :p

BigbyWolf
12-12-2011, 16:05
Any ideas how to keep my casters safe? magic is rather important in a VC army.

Thanks!

Bunker them away from combat?

Mid'ean
12-12-2011, 16:30
Just purple sun his army and watch his ogres cry like the big lumps they are



And this is why I have no sympathy. :p

Right....:evilgrin:


Bunker them away from combat?

Bjuna may have only a range of 12" but Laniph can go up to 24". If a caster Lord it's doable. Combat Lords are a little closer to the action...

Lord Inquisitor
12-12-2011, 16:35
Just purple sun his army and watch his ogres cry like the big lumps they are

Not if I can greedy fist your purple sun away first!

"You've gotta ask yourself a question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?"

Mercules
12-12-2011, 16:58
Not if I can greedy fist your purple sun away first!

"You've gotta ask yourself a question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?"

Which is a bit annoying. Now if you do you get the "Cheese" or "Beardy" label even though it is allowed by the rules. Heck it is even more likely to earn you that title, for less return, than something like double Hellpit Aboms.

Gork or Possibly Mork
12-12-2011, 17:25
Wait till FAQ comes out and hope it's a combat effect only.

Other than that try to dispel Laniph and keep out of range of Bjuna.

Invest in a dispel scroll, maybe even leeching, Maybe give him flying horror so he can get out of dodge easier.

Try to block the unit slowing it down with cheap fodder to limit movement.

Ulke
12-12-2011, 17:30
The FAQ is out.

Gork or Possibly Mork
12-12-2011, 17:33
Didn't know. Thanks.

Texhnolyze
12-12-2011, 18:24
Wait till FAQ comes out and hope it's a combat effect only.

Other than that try to dispel Laniph and keep out of range of Bjuna.

Invest in a dispel scroll, maybe even leeching, Maybe give him flying horror so he can get out of dodge easier.

Try to block the unit slowing it down with cheap fodder to limit movement.

Thanks for all the tips! I'll do my best ;D

Isn't there some scroll that has a chance to destroy a spell also ?

hamsterwheel
12-12-2011, 18:38
I just read all of the relevant text concerning this and it's a nasty combination.

They should have at least made it a requirement for the wizard to be wounded before they lose a level but as it is now, 4 successful hits equals no wizard.

t-tauri
12-12-2011, 18:53
Moved to tactics.

Vsurma
12-12-2011, 19:04
I didn't even know of this tactic, Cheers!

sulla
12-12-2011, 19:44
Not so much a tactic as an easter egg... No-one was doing it before the FAQ.

Lord Inquisitor
12-12-2011, 20:17
Yeah. Well, we talked about it before the FAQ and the general consensus was "pff, that'll be FAQed that the greedy fist effect only works on close combat attacks". No-one took it seriously. The FAQ came out and that got everyone taking this a lot more seriously rather than a cheesy loophole that would inevitably be FAQed.

I don't know if this even is an easter egg. I mean, the FAQ says "ranged attacks" pretty clearly. Wish they'd clarified that further but still...

Morax
12-12-2011, 20:46
Pit of shades and a flying purple sun bomb work wonders on ogres. Either will kill off the threat in question and can have rather extreme ranges. It will eat a lot of power dice but the return on both is worth it against ogres. Failling that I would say something ethereal will stop him from casting DD spells as he will be in combat. Throw some fast moving wraiths at him or summon up some spirit hosts and danse them in for the desired result.

EDMM
13-12-2011, 04:28
Empire Wizard Lord with Sword of Justice!

Good for the goose is good for the gander.

DO IT NOW EMPIRE PLAYERS BEFORE THOSE IDIOTS ERRATA THE SWORD OF JUSTICE LIKE THE FELLBLADE AND RENDING SWORD.

Dreadlordpaul
13-12-2011, 08:12
And this is why I have no sympathy. :p

Yes but if the ogre player is going to do this then why shouldnt I just remove most of their army with one spell and laugh at em :p

jtrowell
13-12-2011, 08:54
Yeah. Well, we talked about it before the FAQ and the general consensus was "pff, that'll be FAQed that the greedy fist effect only works on close combat attacks". No-one took it seriously. The FAQ came out and that got everyone taking this a lot more seriously rather than a cheesy loophole that would inevitably be FAQed.

I don't know if this even is an easter egg. I mean, the FAQ says "ranged attacks" pretty clearly. Wish they'd clarified that further but still...


Hum, doesn't the words "ranged attack" imply a need for an *attack* to occur for the effect to works ?

If an auto-hit spell an "attack" in this context if there is no attack roll ?

Nobby
13-12-2011, 09:42
BRB 41 specifies autohits with "some unusual attacks" such as magic missiles. Thus, they are a form of attack. However, the Greedy fist does not require an attack. It requires "each time they are hit by an Ogre".

brother_maynard
13-12-2011, 12:16
here's my thoughts regarding the combo (be advised that i do not play ogres and this is only information that i've gathered on the periphery)-

they need to take a slaughtermaster with death in order to have a decent chance of rolling up caress or fate. a death level 2 has far too little chance of getting either spell. i've also heard of something called the butcher tax. i'm not sure what that is, but it sounds like in order to take a death level 4, the OK player has to take a level 2 as well (perhaps to satisfy a requirement that at least one wizard use gut magic or something). so in order to take advantage of this gimmick, the OK player is taking a subpar lore on his level 4 and has to take another level 2 who is not a firebelly.

next they have to get the spell through on your level 4 (this implies rolling/choosing it in spell selection, having your level 4 in range/front arc/not in combat, getting the casting value, failing to dispel/not having a scroll, rolling up a number of hits higher than your S or T). while none of these steps are hard to overcome individually, i think that all of them together add up to a substantial obstacle to the gimmick. if one of these steps goes wrong, it was a whole lot of effort on the part of the ogre player wasted. and i don't know about you guys, but even before this FAQ, i always stopped these snipe spells with extreme prejudice, it usually means a dead level 4 if fate gets through. also, the spells do not cause 2D6 hits. they cause 2D6 minus the characteristic hits. important to note because it offers another layer of protection to vampires, beastmen wizards, greater daemons, greenskins, other ogres, and various other spellcasters with impressive stat lines.

now back to death magic on the OK level 4. honestly, this would be alright with me, having looked over the now decent gut magic and the change to the rune maw allowing the unit to be buffed, as well as access to heavens and beasts, i'd really rather see death on the level 4. it has no buffs, the sig spell is not that good with ogres, and it takes a brave wizard to risk throwing purple suns from the middle of his I2 army. this leaves soulblight and D&D. D&D and soulblight are amazing but i think wildform is better on ogres due to the added protection vs shooting and magic, and the fact that it will further modify armor saves on all their attacks, impact hits and stomps.

all in all, i think it is a gimmick that will be seized on by the flood of new ogre players who will be tempted by the shiny newness of it, but the old vets who have settled on their playstyle will only take advantage of it if it already fits the way they were running their lists (i.e. death magic).

Mid'ean
13-12-2011, 12:42
Yes but if the ogre player is going to do this then why shouldnt I just remove most of their army with one spell and laugh at em :p

Isn't this what players have been doing to Ogres already? Everybody's simple answer to wiping 'em out? Purple sun- Pit of shades and call it a game? Do players need to come to an agreement before the games start now? You don't PS-PoS my Ogres and I won't neuter your wizards? Personally I wouldn't play my SM in this way as it doesn't feel right. And I don't like using death magic as it is. And brother maynard has it right. There are better lores to use. But if the meta is going to come down on "STILL" let's just PS-PoS the Ogres soonest, my mind may change on using the set up. I would rather have an enjoyable game of tactics and pushing my men around the table instead of placing them down and then picking them up after the first turn....Time will tell....:shifty:

Mercules
13-12-2011, 13:03
Yes but if the ogre player is going to do this then why shouldnt I just remove most of their army with one spell and laugh at em :p

Um.... Isn't that the current tactic again my army? Oh, wait... yes it is. I think that was why I commented that I have no sympathy for the VC player(s) whining about the combo.

Dreadlordpaul
13-12-2011, 13:14
yes but unlike you lot you really dont rely on your magic as much as vampires do so aint it kind of unfair to blast their best wizard with the greedy fist caress combo when the vampires actually need their wizards and losing one of them is generally a bad thing

Scammel
13-12-2011, 13:29
yes but unlike you lot you really dont rely on your magic as much as vampires do so aint it kind of unfair to blast their best wizard with the greedy fist caress combo when the vampires actually need their wizards and losing one of them is generally a bad thing

Y'see, Ogres are quite dependent on units, they actually function worse without units than Vampires do without characters, believe it or not. We'll leave your characters alone when said characters stop evaporating our armies with Purple Sun and the likes.

decker_cky
13-12-2011, 13:46
The way you'll have to deal with it is by preventing those spells from going off early game. Before they're 12" away, you only have 1 spell to worry about for this. At 12", there's 2 spells, but the wizard is likely in a position position to be countercharged if he can cast it. With 2 ogre wizards and a BSB, the slaughtermaster is probably the general, so go after him. If they're throwing 6 dice at it every turn, they'll have it go off IF now and then, but that's likely their entire phase.

With my beastmen, I'll just sit my herdstone a little further back and fire 36+" spells with little worry.

Dreadlordpaul
13-12-2011, 13:56
Y'see, Ogres are quite dependent on units, they actually function worse without units than Vampires do without characters, believe it or not. We'll leave your characters alone when said characters stop evaporating our armies with Purple Sun and the likes.

Yes but that is one of the only way we have of dealing with ogre armies efficently and affectively because even our grave guard deathstar struggles against ogres because of your high toughness and your stupidly high wounds per model

Mercules
13-12-2011, 14:17
Yes but that is one of the only way we have of dealing with ogre armies efficently and affectively because even our grave guard deathstar struggles against ogres because of your high toughness and your stupidly high wounds per model

You mean your 12 point 1 wound Grave Guard with S4 and To4 are having issues with 32-44 point 3 wound Ogres? Wait.. I think the points balance out. :angel: We all know that Ogres LOVE things with poisoned attacks, especially 2 attack Init 3 Ghouls units that grow before combat and replenish models in combat. :)

You have plenty of tools to beat Ogres. I've been beaten by VC generals who haven't had any Lore other than Lore of the Vampires so I know Death Lore isn't "the only way".

Dreadlordpaul
13-12-2011, 14:21
Yes but when we are having to result to cheesy builds to win dosent that just say something about the army

Scammel
13-12-2011, 14:22
Let's not forget our abundance of magical attacks and static combat res for taking down ethereals!


Yes but when we are having to result to cheesy builds to win dosent that just say something about the army


I agree. We shouldn't have to rely on Deathfists and Hellhearts just to deal with Vampire spellcasters, the VCs need to be brought back in line.

It works both ways, you see? Both armies have both issues and strengths against each other.

Dreadlordpaul
13-12-2011, 14:32
Let's not forget our abundance of magical attacks and static combat res for taking down ethereals!



I agree. We shouldn't have to rely on Deathfists and Hellhearts just to deal with Vampire spellcasters, the VCs need to be brought back in line.

It works both ways, you see? Both armies have both issues and strengths against each other.

Erm no we shouldnt have to rely on certain combos to win we should be able to beat armies with just using skeletons and zombies and to be honest our spell casters are not that bad if you think our spell casters are that powerful you may not realise the amount on points we have to sink into them. I would say dark elf wizards slann high elf mages and daemons wizards are all much more powerful

Scammel
13-12-2011, 14:40
Erm no we shouldnt have to rely on certain combos to win we should be able to beat armies with just using skeletons and zombies

No you shouldn't. I can't think of anything unhealthier for the game than winning armies consisting of 2 different troop types.


to be honest our spell casters are not that bad if you think our spell casters are that powerful you may not realise the amount on points we have to sink into them. I would say dark elf wizards slann high elf mages and daemons wizards are all much more powerful

But on the other hand your wizards are much more tougher and potent in combat compared to most of those others (and the likes of Lords of Change are much more expensive). Do you see what I'm getting at? For every point you can make about VC struggling in some aspects I can counter by pointing out their strenghts. Internally they're not in the healthiest state, but they're perfectly good compared to the vast majority of armies out there.

Dreadlordpaul
13-12-2011, 14:47
No you shouldn't. I can't think of anything unhealthier for the game than winning armies consisting of 2 different troop types.



But on the other hand your wizards are much more tougher and potent in combat compared to most of those others (and the likes of Lords of Change are much more expensive). Do you see what I'm getting at? For every point you can make about VC struggling in some aspects I can counter by pointing out their strenghts. Internally they're not in the healthiest state, but they're perfectly good compared to the vast majority of armies out there.

I was saying we shouldnt just have to take ghouls to win we should be able to win by taking just skellies and zombies for core also yes while our vampires might be good and tough in combat they need to be that way when our general means so much to the army

Memnos
13-12-2011, 14:56
As someone who doesn't play Ogres or Vampire Counts, allow me to say:

BAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!

Hilarious. Just because of this, I'm building a Chaos Dwarf army with a Sorceror-Prophet on a Bale Taurus and buy lots of Iron Daemon War Engines with spike plates on the front just so I get this scene in my mind:

"HAHAH! Stoopid Profit guy on flying bull! Me am steal all your magic away! You am useless."
"Ah, the old magic stealing ploy. You are the Holmes to my Moriarty. Aristotle versus MASHY SPIKE PLATE."
(EDIT: Though it should be: Nagash versus Alcadizaar. Teclis versus MASHY SPIKE PLATE.)

Dreadlordpaul
13-12-2011, 14:58
As someone who doesn't play Ogres or Vampire Counts, allow me to say:

BAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!

Hilarious. Just because of this, I'm building a Chaos Dwarf army with a Sorceror-Prophet on a Bale Taurus and buy lots of Iron Daemon War Engines with spike plates on the front just so I get this scene in my mind:

"HAHAH! Stoopid Profit guy on flying bull! Me am steal all your magic away! You am useless."
"Ah, the old magic stealing plate. You are the Holmes to my Moriarty. Aristotle versus MASHY SPIKE PLATE."

This made me lol

Memnos
13-12-2011, 15:03
This made me lol

As well it should, sir. If hitting a bunch of fat guys with a train and quoting Wheatley at the same time doesn't make you laugh, then you have no soul.

Dreadlordpaul
13-12-2011, 15:06
As well it should, sir. If hitting a bunch of fat guys with a train and quoting Wheatley at the same time doesn't make you laugh, then you have no soul.

Very true now if only there was a in game rule to represent the train hitting them

Memnos
13-12-2011, 15:08
Very true now if only there was a in game rule to represent the train hitting them

Why, it does as a matter of fact!

The Iron Daemon can be fitted with its very own Mashy Spike Plate. It does 2d6+2 S8 impact hits when the train hits them. It then goes on to do 2d6+2 Thunderstomps in subsequent rounds. If... Err... You could Thunderstomp Ogres. Which you can't. But if you could... WHAM! BAM! To the MOON.

Dreadlordpaul
13-12-2011, 15:12
Why, it does as a matter of fact!

The Iron Daemon can be fitted with its very own Mashy Spike Plate. It does 2d6+2 S8 impact hits when the train hits them. It then goes on to do 2d6+2 Thunderstomps in subsequent rounds. If... Err... You could Thunderstomp Ogres. Which you can't. But if you could... WHAM! BAM! To the MOON.

If I ever play against chaos dwarves I will remember to purple sun that thing just so it cant do anything :p

Memnos
13-12-2011, 15:15
If I ever play against chaos dwarves I will remember to purple sun that thing just so it cant do anything :p

"Hrm. The death trap didn't work. I have a confession to make. You are coming dangerously close to my lair. Hah. Lair. Sounds... Sounds a bit ridiculous when I say it out loud. But it is a proper lair. So, rather than showing up to be killed there, why not just kill yourself here? Right now? Seems like a lot of trouble to walk all the way to my lair when there's a perfectly serviceable death option here. Again - Not a death trap. A death option. When you get to my lair, death will not be optional. So why not give up now, honorably? Like a samurai."

CmdrLaw
13-12-2011, 15:20
"Hrm. The death trap didn't work. I have a confession to make. You are coming dangerously close to my lair. Hah. Lair. Sounds... Sounds a bit ridiculous when I say it out loud. But it is a proper lair. So, rather than showing up to be killed there, why not just kill yourself here? Right now? Seems like a lot of trouble to walk all the way to my lair when there's a perfectly serviceable death option here. Again - Not a death trap. A death option. When you get to my lair, death will not be optional. So why not give up now, honorably? Like a samurai."

Can I buy some pot from you?

Lord Inquisitor
13-12-2011, 15:27
Careful, it seems he's smoking pure, uncut Tamurkhan. Strong stuff.

PurpleSun
13-12-2011, 17:02
Has it ever been determined what would happen if this combo hit a unit of Pink Horrors? Would it strip their levels?

Mercules
13-12-2011, 17:07
Has it ever been determined what would happen if this combo hit a unit of Pink Horrors? Would it strip their levels?

Yes, it would strip their level. However, their level is determined fresh at the start of each magic phase so you would simply count their number and apply the proper level for that amount again. So while it would work, it wouldn't stick and basically be a waste of time because by the time you could "hit" them there would be no use for them losing a level.

Lord Inquisitor
13-12-2011, 17:18
I guess if you can strip levels with spells it would reduce their level for dispelling purposes in that phase.

Mercules
13-12-2011, 19:23
True... if it was the only mage they had... but wouldn't those dice be better spent adding 1 or more to some OTHER spell? :)

Lebowski
15-12-2011, 21:52
guys... the eternal question if VC casters are OP huh?

Well, we do both magic and combat... passably. We are not the best at either.

The reason why this OK combo should not completely neuter a VC magic phase is that a good vamp player will have a lvl 3-4 along with a loremaster. If an OK player is going to spend the points, time, and magic dice to do this AND the vamp player does not avoid it, dispel it, and not take ANY magical defence... then the VC player deserves it anyways.

sulla
16-12-2011, 01:38
So will OK only be using this against vampires?

CmdrLaw
16-12-2011, 10:47
I think the spell will actually be a lot more useful against Lone casters, Greater Daemons, Disc Sorcerors etc.

Then they can use the ranged spell from the Law of Maw or any other magic missiles to make a dent.

You have to pretty much go all out on death to go the sniping route, you basically have to know exactly what your facing to make it broken, otherwise might never be any use.

Vsurma
16-12-2011, 13:08
I ran lore of Maw on a lv4 at my previous tournament and I found it lacking, on the turns going into combat you have nothing in the lore that really does anything, a few buffs to help you survive but they aren't necessarily worth the miscast chance.

Once in combat its the mass regen you really want, T and S buffs are nice but nothing game changing.

I already decided to change to death before the faq came out so now its even better.

I think it will be quite nice. The lore has enough good spells to make it hard for the opponent to dispel what you really want.

Spirit leech is nice and you will often find a good target for it, even if you are casting on an opponent with equal ld its still descent and scroll caddies will often have lower ld.

Laniph is 6+ to cast! which is ace but with the greedy fist I would likely throw 6 dice at it if it meant stripping down a lv4.

Soulblight works well with ogres.
Doom and darkness is always decent and if you get braingoblar on your ogre mage even better.

Bjurna is another that will strip levels but does have 12" range which is a minus.

On the average casting phase I would likely throw a few dice at spirit leech then the rest on caress of laniph, once you get units into CC soulblight will be ace and since these spells have low casting values you should be able to cast all 3, unless the enemy has 6 dispel dice and didn't dispel leech, chances are they will have to either scroll or get hit with the spell.

The downside is that generally your caster is with a unit of ironguts that wants to get into CC and the 3 sniping spells are all direct damage so out of combat only.

I think the spells I would be going for are
spirit leach
caress of lanif
soulblight
????? whateva

Bjurna seems less important due to its range and generally you can't control all of the spells you get anyway, getting lanif and leech should be easy anough and soublight you will have most of the time anyway with the last spell being whatever you happen to roll.

I will have to see how it works in an actual game but given the power of this combo if it works I don't see much reason not to run it, Maw seemed a lackluster lore and fire/heavens/beasts don't seem much better.

herohammer
16-12-2011, 22:09
So will OK only be using this against vampires?
Well it wouldn't be very good against dwarfs. But against everyone else...

I am proud to say that I was using greedy fist death magic before the faq.

Gradivus
16-12-2011, 23:12
I don't know about you guys, but an ogre talisman shaped as a fist punching every mage in the balls through a spell called 'Caress of Laniph' until they forget all about the Purple Sun of Xereus is certainly... something. Sounds like that Laniph is not a nice guy/gal.

Maoriboy007
18-12-2011, 18:03
If our Ogre player uses this BS combo against me then I'd probebly just play several Death Loremaster Vampires spread out through the army (as Hellheart protection) and Psun him until he stops. I won't complain about having my wizards neutered if he dont complain about having his army turned into crystal.

Scammel
18-12-2011, 19:39
Alternatively there's a chance you could just beat him anyway. This strategy is too expensive and unreliable for my tastes, anyone who's depending on it needs to take a good look at what other options are available.

Lord Inquisitor
18-12-2011, 19:45
If our Ogre player uses this BS combo against me then I'd probebly just play several Death Loremaster Vampires spread out through the army (as Hellheart protection) and Psun him until he stops. I won't complain about having my wizards neutered if he dont complain about having his army turned into crystal.

The more wizards you put in, the worse the hellheart gets. A good hellheart roll and that build will just implode. Literally, I hit a VC player with the hellheart and he rolled 9 twice and all his low-level wizards took 2 S6 hits each and all died. Pff. Bring a dispel scrol, and prevent the death magic hitting your vamp as long as possible or just hide out of sight. The Greedy Fister is very expensive, requires a second butcher, involves running Death, which is at best hard to get to work well for ogres compared to their other Lores available. Even a successful cast isn't going to always strip levels and if that's all the ogre player is getting through he's not boosting his troops. It's just not all that as a serious competitive strategy.

Dreadlordpaul
18-12-2011, 23:13
Or just do what im doing for my warriors and running a pure khorne army with no mages :p

a18no
22-12-2011, 01:30
Have you guys played strom of magic?? What about a slaughtermaster/fist/heaven, casting the presence spell that hit 4 things with 3D6 (if I remember right), making all mages on top of fulcrum lvl 0... ouch

Moses
22-12-2011, 04:34
Yeah, some of the Ogre magic items do ridiculous things in Storm of Magic

Dreadlordpaul
22-12-2011, 06:47
Infernal puppet is hilarious in storm of magic especially if you combine it with the black tongue :p