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dagreenmoonboyz
13-12-2011, 03:42
playing first game against daemons this coming week. Don't know what too look for or what my match ups should be. Its going to be 3000 points and id say medium competitive.

My list usually off the top of my head

savage orc shaman lvl 4
-shrunken head, fencer blades

goblin big boss general

night goblin bsb

night goblin shaman lvl 1
dispel scroll

20 night goblin archers
100 night goblins nets spears
40 savage big uns w/extra hw
40 black orcs (flaming banner)
40 Squigs w/ 14 handlers
9 trolls + single troll
arachnarok
wolf chariot

I dont mind minor list tweek suggestions but not looking to go crazy. I am still not sold on the big spider so he could probably go. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,
-DGMBs

Arijharn
13-12-2011, 05:08
Things to look out for... hmm, I guess the big thing would be Greater Daemon's as chances are probably above average that they'll be one in a 3k point game. In that case, probably the best way to deal with him would be anything with access to S6 attacks, so looking at your list (which I admit I don't know much about, since I collect Daemons) I think the Arachnarok has the best chance of defeating.

Other than that is Siren Song which makes you charge the (Slaanesh) units he wants. The good thing though is that if it's a big Daemonette block that he gets you to charge, then he's going to be reliant on magic in order to actually kill your troops, but daemonette's buffed with Mind Razor for example will rip you to shreds.

Flamers fire D6 shots each with no multiple shot penalties but the maximum size of a unit is 6.

The problem though with giving you too much detailed advice imo is that generally speaking Daemon armies are pretty varied. Mainstay's may be something like Bloodletter's (S5 Killing Blow) that are very scary, but Daemonette horde blocks can be very effective but only really with the aforementioned magic. Or he could go Plaguebearers to hold you for eternity, but with the prevalence of flaming weapons or attacks it's relatively rare for this playstyle to occur.

tmarichards
13-12-2011, 05:19
Daemons are a pretty good match-up for O&G- your chaff can knock huge chunks out of their blocks which are never big enough for the losses to be acceptable, and the war machines make Greater Daemons a liability. Savage Orc Big'Uns can also outfight pretty much whatever is left once he gets to you.

That Night Goblin unit will do precisely nothing. Give them bows, and give the BSB the poison banner. Also, drop the Savage Orc to a level 2, and drop your current general for a Black Orc. 100 poison Night Goblins with bows is truly horrifying to face, trust me- I've been tabled by it.

Black Orcs are pretty rubbish, there's nothing good about them unfortunately. With the points you save from them, adding in 2 Manglers, 2 Pump Wagons with +1D6 move, 2 Doom Diver and 2 Rock Lobbers will go a long way towards making your list a whole lot better.

The spider is ok, but it is fairly easy points if someone is able to deal with it.

tanglethorn
13-12-2011, 17:18
I wouldnt call the Black Orcs rubbish. They are the only unit that Orcs have that allow Great Weapons. I personally wouldn't make them 40 large though.

Im a little surprised to not see any Manglers or Pump Wagons though.

Malorian
13-12-2011, 17:37
Black Orcs are pretty rubbish, there's nothing good about them unfortunately. With the points you save from them, adding in 2 Manglers, 2 Pump Wagons with +1D6 move, 2 Doom Diver and 2 Rock Lobbers will go a long way towards making your list a whole lot better.

:eek:

This is madness! Black orcs are amazing!

They have access to str 7 when you need to take out high armor or toughness, have access to magic banners (this plus the high strength means thing like HPAs are a joke), have 2 hand weapons for when you need the jump against enemy great weapon units, and are imume to psych and animosity.


Shooting has its place against daemons but don't cut out the heart of your army to get it.

I also think manglers and the pump wagon will be risky. Expect him to have flamers and a few magic missiles, meaning manglers and pump wagons will have a hard time hitting their mark.

Bobtheogre
13-12-2011, 17:39
I had the pleasure of getting beat on by one of the nastiest Daemons lists in a local tournament a few weeks ago at 2500 points with my Orcs and Gobbos.

Grinding: The fact that the units crumble instead of running is a big concern as O&G dont like combats to go past first round since we lose our Choppa bonus.

Greater Daemon of Nurgle with Balesword: This guy is nasty. He auto wounds and each wound multiplies by d6. So if your gonna fight him, you either need to hit him withsomething with flaming attacks or put him into a fight with a pit unit that will take 5 turns of beatings(i recommend goblins.) Do not get a character into a Challenge situation as this combo is probably the best character assassin in the game.

Bloodletters: No problem.

Daemonettes: They are going to go first, and can make us charge them. But if you weren't going to charge them anyways, your not playing Orcs and Gobbos right.

Horrors: Not a problem, you just get stuck there for a while.

Plague Bearers: FLAMING ATTACKS! You will be stuck in combat with these guys the entire game if you cant negate their regen.

Flamers: Hit em with a chariot or pump wagon! They move fast so stop em from getting to your war machines.

I usually take the Razor's Standard in my tourney Army, but its garbage against this army. War Banner and the Flaming Banner are your best bets.

Thats my 2 cents on my experience with Daemons. Its a pretty even match up, and not much to be scared of. Just gotta be a little Brutally Cunnin' and Cunninly Brutal.

dagreenmoonboyz
13-12-2011, 18:00
Thanks for all the input guys really appreciate it. Decided ill most likely drop the spider and take two doom divers and two pump wagons. The black orcs are staying as they are the only thing that is getting flaming and high strength attacks.

Sorry i cant narrow down what he will be playing but how bout magic what is the usual shenanigans?

-DGMBs

Malorian
13-12-2011, 18:02
If he's playing a leadership bomb army then slap him and leave the room, otherwise his magic won't be that crazy.

In return your foot of gork can do a ton of damage back to him. Hand of gork can be also great to get to his horror bunker and kill his bsb.

Bobtheogre
13-12-2011, 19:22
I havnt had any problems with magic against Daemons. Foot of Gork and Hand of Gork are your best tricks, combined with Ere We Go can end your combats faster.

Somehow, not sure how, but daemons can carry 2 Dispell Scrolls. So that can get tricky at critical moments.

But other than that, daemons dont have too many tricks. The entire army is like fighting other armies special choices, and they pay out the nose per troop for a Ward Save and a special ability or two.

Malorian
13-12-2011, 19:27
Daemons don't get scrolls as they don't have access to common items (bloodthirster with wizard hat FTW!) but they can buy daemon powers that do the same thing.

Bobtheogre
13-12-2011, 19:52
@Malorian - Ahh, thats how they do it. Ive picked up the book after getting cheesed by the Great Unclean One, but haven't had time to read it.

Have fun with the match up! Daemons give Orcs the fight of a lifetime and my games with them are usually won/lost in turn 6. Just once you engage plan on being in that fight for a while, so pick and choose wisely! More attacks are your friend!

Glenn87
13-12-2011, 21:06
well, I'd say doom divers and rock lobbers to easy up their ranks a bit.

but I hear everyone here talking about the Flamer unit and the Deamonette tricks, but you also have to watch out for the fiends. "10 basic movement (that's a "20 march!!).

alot also depends on wich greater deamon he's taking. If he's taking a Bloodthirster or Keeper of Secrets, then expect them to fly forward into combat, if he's taking a tooled up Lord of Chance, then his magic phase will be a bugger for you. Just hope he's not taking Karios.

tmarichards
13-12-2011, 21:46
:eek:

They have access to str 7 when you need to take out high armor or toughness, have access to magic banners (this plus the high strength means thing like HPAs are a joke), have 2 hand weapons for when you need the jump against enemy great weapon units, and are imume to psych and animosity.



Except that if the Black Orcs have S7 then the Abomb runs in and gets to do it's attacks and Thunderstomp before getting attacked back, and will basically neuter the unit to the extent where it can get rolled over in combat. Compare that to my solution, where the Abomb likely dies before it even gets into combat, as does a Bloodthirster.

Malorian
13-12-2011, 22:16
Except that if the Black Orcs have S7 then the Abomb runs in and gets to do it's attacks and Thunderstomp before getting attacked back, and will basically neuter the unit to the extent where it can get rolled over in combat. Compare that to my solution, where the Abomb likely dies before it even gets into combat, as does a Bloodthirster.

Between thunderstomp and impact hits you are looking at 6 dead orcs, and the regular attacks won't kill that much more. In the first round the HPA won't even cut into the attacks of the BOs before they get to strike.

The return attacks will do 6.6 attacks to an HPA and kill it without a chance of it coming back. (And to be fair, the thunderstomp isn't even until after the black orcs hit.)


The HPA verses your odd mix is a hard one to do the math on as it's very situational, but I think the most important thing to remember is that skaven and DoC have all the ranged attacks they need to knock out the manglers and pump wagons if they want to.

Your warmachines, if they all hit, would do an average of 4.65 wounds, and although doom divers are good at hitting both combined are only adding 1.75 to that number.

And we're not even looking at the many counters to warmachines such as fast cav, scouts, and units of fliers (of which DoC have access to all)(and skaven have the storm banner).


Shooting and wacky movement units might be fun but they are simply unreliable and have several counters. A horde of black orcs is the definition of reliable and have very few straight up counters.

Ghazar
28-12-2011, 13:41
I'm a Daemon player and my roommate plays with O&G. What I can tell about this kind of games, for O&G player -> Take as many Doom Divers and Rock Lobbers as you only can. And aim for the Lords first and then combat heroes (most important will be bsb who can has banner that decreases Ld by -2 -I've won countless battles because of using it on orc army). And do not believe that bloodletters are easy kill. They can have banner with +d6" to the first charge and hit you in the second round. Do not take arachnarok if your friend will be playing them. My friend took 2 of these + 2 fighting lords on wyverns once to test this kind of army - I've killed them in 2 rounds of combat with 2 units of bloodletters. Savage Orcs are the best for fighting and a lord with them with crown of command and +4ward save. But most important are 2 rounds of war machines shooting. Usually after that we always know who will win the game.