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Spiney Norman
13-12-2011, 15:35
Generally speaking how much do you reveal about your army before the game begins? Do you allow your opponent to peruse your full list before the start of a game, or do you tell them nothing at all other than what their eyes can see of the models you put down?

Heres a few more specific questions regarding information sharing

1. Would you tell your opponent which units had command options or equipment options that weren't immediately obvious from the model (like the difference between light and heavy armour, warmachine upgrades like runes, skulls of the foe etc)?
2. Would you share your characters magic item combos before the battle, or divulge any magic banners carried by your units?
3. What about hidden units like Fanatics or Assassins, would you share how many fanatics/assassins you had over the whole army or not? I guess its a given that you don't tell them where they actually are.
4. Do you tell them which characters is your general or, for example if you were playing Tomb Kings, would you say which priest was your hierophant?

One thing we've been trialing is the idea of "opponent lists", which is basically a copy of your army list with all the details of magic items, optional upgrades, hidden units and pts costs removed give to your opponent before the start of the game. So essentially it contains each unit along with the number of models in the unit and details which character is the general and BSB (and hierophant in the case of TK).

Malorian
13-12-2011, 15:44
I tell my opponent everything they ask for. Only thing I tell automatically from your list is who my general is.

Duke Ramulots
13-12-2011, 15:48
You kinda have to share your list so your opponent can make sure it's legal. I've constantly run into poor math skills(opponent was a few hundred over limit) and Item clashing(balance of power). So, no I would never play like you suggest.

ewar
13-12-2011, 15:50
Seems a bit of an odd question to me? I'm just a bit confused that anyone would try and keep mundane options or command upgrades secret when the game should really be WYSIWYG.

I tell opponents everything about my list except magic items or hidden abilities (ie Slann abilities) until it is used in game.

I also find it good practice to run through unusual units rules before the game, so you're opponent is t blind sided mid game, as that can leave a bad taste in the mouth (I.e. I run over the monsters and handlers rules for salamanders as many people don't know them).

Dreadlordpaul
13-12-2011, 15:50
I personally never reveal my list until certain things come into play for example vampiric powers and certain items no one has ever had a problem with it in fact I prefere to know nothing about the enemys army

The Low King
13-12-2011, 15:55
I tell people what each unit is and thats it.....sometime we show eachother lists but things like fanatics and magic items should be hidden...

Armoured in illusion is a good one of mine, if i take an unkillable dwarf character for a few games people stop attacking him...always not realising im now playing a list without all the unkillable stuff

Dreadlordpaul
13-12-2011, 15:56
The Low King thats pretty much what I do I just tell them what each unit is and thats all

ewar
13-12-2011, 16:01
I tell people what each unit is and thats it.....sometime we show eachother lists but things like fanatics and magic items should be hidden...

Armoured in illusion is a good one of mine, if i take an unkillable dwarf character for a few games people stop attacking him...always not realising im now playing a list without all the unkillable stuff

Which is why it's always good practice to direct at least 1 rnf attack against a character in the first round to see what armour they've got :)

shelfunit.
13-12-2011, 16:05
I go through unit by unit - this a unit of X, they are equiped with a,b, and c, they have full command (or whatever) and then the same with the character and their basic equipment. Magic items or otherwise "hidden" things are not disclosed until their effect is activated.

eron12
13-12-2011, 16:06
Generally speaking how much do you reveal about your army before the game begins? Do you allow your opponent to peruse your full list before the start of a game, or do you tell them nothing at all other than what their eyes can see of the models you put down?

I walk a middle path, providing some mundane information unasked, and providing the rest if asked.


1. Would you tell your opponent which units had command options or equipment options that weren't immediately obvious from the model (like the difference between light and heavy armour, warmachine upgrades like runes, skulls of the foe etc)?

I always say what command a unit has, as well as what weapons they have. I will say what kind of armor they have if asked. I will say some warmachine upgrades, like engineers, upfront, but not runes, as they are magic items.


2. Would you share your characters magic item combos before the battle, or divulge any magic banners carried by your units?

Not until they come into play.


3. What about hidden units like Fanatics or Assassins, would you share how many fanatics/assassins you had over the whole army or not? I guess its a given that you don't tell them where they actually are.

No, I've never had a DE or O&G opponent even tell me they had fantatics/assassins, let alone how many accross the army, and I would not expect them too.


. Do you tell them which characters is your general or, for example if you were playing Tomb Kings, would you say which priest was your hierophant?

Yes


One thing we've been trialing is the idea of "opponent lists", which is basically a copy of your army list with all the details of magic items, optional upgrades, hidden units and pts costs removed give to your opponent before the start of the game. So essentially it contains each unit along with the number of models in the unit and details which character is the general and BSB (and hierophant in the case of TK).

Not a bad idea, but I don't think it's needed, as long as you are up front about basic information and willing to share mundane info.

The Low King
13-12-2011, 16:08
assuming it gets to the armour :D youve got to hit, wound and me roll lower than my normal armour save

WarmbloodedLizard
13-12-2011, 16:41
I keep magic items/assassins/fanatics/etc. hidden, but show all scouts/ambusher units/bloodlines/slann disciplines etc.

Kallstrom
13-12-2011, 16:48
I tell everything. I don't mind some tactical play and so forth, but where is the fun when someone wins over you by playing dirty and going for the cheap shots? :S

kane40k
13-12-2011, 16:57
I normally let people read my list. Only i think its fair they should know what theyre up against in a game, however the WAY you tell people can often give away too much. Infact i think spoken words give away too much . Obviously dont play in silence but sometimes comming accross mild (and containing the excitement before you release your crippling blows) is helpful. Whilst remaining friendly too.

A good chat before a game can glean much from your opponent too. His favorite unit. A story about a certain unit slaying something or doing something epic, gives you a feel for the player too and how all the peices fit.

If you get what i mean? Or am i talking jibberish.

Wargamejunkie
13-12-2011, 17:05
We have been known to ask open/closed list before the game/tourney start.

Open is obvious.

Closed list we give out mundane information (ex armor/weapon type). Everything else is given after the item/power takes effect.

boli
13-12-2011, 17:09
I say you tell your opponants: "WYSIWYG".. well in the form of a list (spoken or written down)

39 Stormvermin w. full command / halbards / heavy armour
1 warlord w. heavy armour / magical shield / magical sword

34 clanrats w. full command / sheilds / light armour
1 chieften w. BSB / Great Weapon / Heavy Armour / Magical Standard

You don't have to tell him *which* standards/magical items you have but spies/obeservation will tell you they have a magical weapon... or their armour is looking particually shiney this morning. Stuff like scrolls or even spells should be kept secret until used imho.

Morax
13-12-2011, 17:14
I make as much of my army WYSIWYG and any part of it that is not I divulge at the start of every turn so my opponent remembers. Anything that doesn't have to be WYSIWYG is left secret. So command is supposed to have models and be placed appropriately, if it's not I let my opponent know. Weapon and armor options should be accurate, if it's not then I let my opponent know. If it is a character, I make sure he has appropriate equipment for his magical items. Sword of Power and dawn armor means he has a sword and really heavy plate armor. If my opponent wants to know the special rules, that is what magical items like the crystal ball is for, or he can wait till I issue that challenge to find out which of my mages carries the speculum.

Avian
13-12-2011, 17:35
I'll mention all upgrades for units that aren't magic items or other hidden upgrades (ex: Fanatics). For my characters, I'll usually just specify what they are and their mount, along with who the general is.

If people are interested, I can specify what type of armour and weaponry my characters have, but in my experience most people aren't that bothered and so it's not something I tell unless asked. With the possibility of magic items, knowing the equipment doesn't necessarily mean anything anyway.

GrimmHammer
13-12-2011, 17:42
I ask my opponent what he does and does not want to share and go from there, I'm usually up for whatever my opponent is good with.

theunwantedbeing
13-12-2011, 17:50
1. Would you tell your opponent which units had command options or equipment options that weren't immediately obvious from the model (like the difference between light and heavy armour, warmachine upgrades like runes, skulls of the foe etc)?
I point out all mundane things, whether it is apparent or not.


2. Would you share your characters magic item combos before the battle, or divulge any magic banners carried by your units?
Nope. Magical properties are hidden untill they take effect.


3. What about hidden units like Fanatics or Assassins, would you share how many fanatics/assassins you had over the whole army or not? I guess its a given that you don't tell them where they actually are.
They're hidden, so are a secret untill revealed.
Just like magical effects.


4. Do you tell them which characters is your general or, for example if you were playing Tomb Kings, would you say which priest was your hierophant?
Yes, you have to.


One thing we've been trialing is the idea of "opponent lists"
Good idea.

Crovax20
13-12-2011, 18:02
I'll mention all upgrades for units that aren't magic items or other hidden upgrades (ex: Fanatics). For my characters, I'll usually just specify what they are and their mount, along with who the general is.

If people are interested, I can specify what type of armour and weaponry my characters have, but in my experience most people aren't that bothered and so it's not something I tell unless asked. With the possibility of magic items, knowing the equipment doesn't necessarily mean anything anyway.

This pretty much.

Also at our club we almost never review the eachothers list. I don't know, we just trust *gasp* eachother. Its not a real biggy, as we just play to have a fun game and don't care too much about winning or losing.

jack da greenskin
13-12-2011, 20:14
In 40k? everything. And I expect them to do the same.

Fantasy? Most of my current community runs closed lists, but obviously if you're using a stand in or counts as unit, then we say. Magic items are kept hidden until used.

Dystopian wars and malifaux? Open lists normally.

vorthrax
13-12-2011, 20:20
The GTs and local tournaments that my local gaming group go to are all open list. So that's how we play our pickup games too as we're basically almost always playing in preparation for the next tournament.

popisdead
13-12-2011, 20:31
If my opponent was dead-set on knowing what I brought he'd have figured out from the book, my models and config what he's facing and same for me. If I HAD to know what I was facing I'd read a book.

1 - I could care less what my opponent has built in however armouring options should be a bit more obvious or clear though since it generally should be modeled.

2 - If my opponent wants to know what my characters have he's free to look/ask. I don't ask and I don't offer it up freely though.

3 - I don't ask about assassins or fanatics, I will deal with them if they arise or know they are likely there. Doesn't ruin a game for me to face a challenge or surprise.

4 - I always tell them my general as it's the highest LD isn't it? If not it's going to be obvious soon when I go "K, here is my general, measuring 12"s for LD test"

Skyth
13-12-2011, 20:31
I reveal everything except secret info (assassing/fantatics). When I place units down, I let my opponent know what the unit is, what it has, and any magic items in it.

The bearded one
13-12-2011, 21:18
Things that you should be able to see (visual options like shields, great weapons, heavy/light/whatever armour, command options, engineers on warmachines etc. ), such info I freely divulge, as well as the magic level of wizards, who is the BSB and the general and so forth. But magic items and hidden models? Phe, no way hosť!

T10
13-12-2011, 23:22
I've not had to audit an opponents army list in any game, ever. I trust my fellow gamers implicitly. That doesn't mean that I haven't made mistakes, or haven't seen other make them.

Most discrepancies with illegal item combinations (or spending too much) will usually be revealed during the game. In my experience, this is always due to beginners mistakes (or VPNRAD*). The most common fix is to discount the conflicting items, keeping in the game only the first that came into play. Or simply ignoring this and letting the combo stand this one time. The important thing is to learn from these mistakes and avoid them in the future.

For tournaments or organized play there is usually an army roster review anyway that should catch any mistakes.




* - Veteran Player New Rules Adaptation Deficiency

dimetri1
14-12-2011, 00:21
The only things I do not reveal are the optional magic items my characters are equipped with. That includes banners. If my opponent asks me general questions like.... what do flamers do or what weapons and stats do your Dwarf Warriors have course I will divulge that information. I give my opponent a list with all of the points totals on it it just does not show what the special items are. In some cases they will figure some of them out on there just from the points.

Jind_Singh
14-12-2011, 00:39
Anything from army list - like command, unit upgrades, weapon load outs, etc, are always disclosed ONLY IF it is not clear on the models (say I have a unit I am trying out with a different weapon).

Magic items/runes/hidden models...NO WAY!!!! Unless it's an open list tournament then sure - otherwise you'll find out when the time comes!

Feefait
14-12-2011, 01:55
I share anything visible. Command, standards, weapons, armor, etc. Not all things should or need to be shared though. Models that are termed hidden by game rules (assassins, fanatics) stay that way. I also won't tell if I have scouts until it comes time to deploy them. With beastmen i will say I have gors in ambush, but not the amounts or equipment they carry, same with any reserve. I also won't ask my opponent to tell me such things.

Our group has a long standing tradition of not revealing magic items or spells until they are used. I include special abilities along with that, but when asked will generally share. for example if my opponent asks what a salamander does I won't say "spits fire", instead I will tell him how it works. Now I've been playing with the same 3-4 guys forever and a day, so sometimes a surprise is nice since it's really hard to pull off. I like to find out things through trial and error, but that's just me. If I lose a stegadon to a poisoned a-rock attack that i didn't know about well, know I know. :)

Jind_Singh
14-12-2011, 03:03
Spells my opponents know as we will roll them prior to the game starting - it's just a given in our area.

I like your idea though - it's adding some zest to the game!

Zentdiam
14-12-2011, 09:34
In my area we run that anything that should be WYSIWYG is told. This should be the norm as it gets rid of the confusion of having things that in reality you should have shown in your army. My command should be shown in my army, so we say full command when deploying. If my wizard (somehow) has a greatsword we mention he is equipped with magic greatsword of x. Seeing as how if we were really playing in the spirit of the game I would have to model not only a greatsword but a fancy magical looking greatsword on my wizard. This also is easy as it actually allows us to be less WYSIWYG. Don't have the musician built? Simply tell your opponent at the beginning as he SHOULD be there.

Now anything that would not be WYSIWYG is hidden. Fanatics, assassins, etc.

Oogie boogie boss
14-12-2011, 10:30
Amongst my group of friends we only volunteer who's the army general (if it's not immediately obvious) and if proxying models, what they represent. Other than that, we keep our lists secret, as we find half the fun is trying to anticipate what the other player might bring and how they might use it.
Ooh, one other thing i would reveal is, if i take multiple wizards of different lores and/or levels, which is which.

We don't reveal lists or equipment, nor do we reveal magic items or hidden units (though we will always mark down where said hidden models are on our army lists.

However, if an opponent asks to see your army list to check your math, see if you're cheating, etc. then we ALWAYS show them. Just as we always allow opponents to read through our army book to read up about units/characters/magic items and the like.

Also, we always reveal if we are using special characters (unless, like for example Sniktch, they are 'hidden characters'). There was a thread a while back about a guy who had refused to tell his opponent, when asked, what the rules for Khazrak were, which in my view is very poor form.
Essentially, i believe that immutable rules, i.e stats, special rules, special character abilities and unchangeable magic items, should be openly available to your opponent.
What you have the right to keep secret are optional additions, i.e character equipment and especially magic items.

Spiney Norman
14-12-2011, 10:30
Anything from army list - like command, unit upgrades, weapon load outs, etc, are always disclosed ONLY IF it is not clear on the models (say I have a unit I am trying out with a different weapon).

Magic items/runes/hidden models...NO WAY!!!! Unless it's an open list tournament then sure - otherwise you'll find out when the time comes!

For armour/weapon options I was more meaning options that aren't immediately obvious from the models, for example whether your skeleton infantry/cavalry have light armour or not (because there are no different models to distinguish between the two), or whether you SSC has the skulls of the Foe upgrade etc

hopefully people shouldn't have to ask if a spearmen unit has spears when the models are clearly carrying them for example.

Memnos
14-12-2011, 10:53
I tell the person anything visible: Command models, counts-as, etc.

I also let them know of any FAQs or rules they might not be aware of. It's not entertaining to win a fight because someone laid out their entire army assuming a rule worked one way and found out that six hours earlier, that was changed.

Spiney Norman
14-12-2011, 11:02
I tell the person anything visible: Command models, counts-as, etc.

I also let them know of any FAQs or rules they might not be aware of. It's not entertaining to win a fight because someone laid out their entire army assuming a rule worked one way and found out that six hours earlier, that was changed.

Thats a good point about FAQs, I've taken to keeping a copy of all the FAQs for the armies I play in a folder and taking it with me to games, as well as keeping abreast of the FAQs for the game's other armies. You'd be surprised how often a gamer hasn't read the FAQ for their own army and ends up playing things wrong.

Artinam
14-12-2011, 11:40
I ask my opponent beforehand if he is familiar with the army rules (Bretonnia in most cases). The I tell them who the general and the BSB is, as well as telling them which unit is which.
I do not tell them my magic items or Banners untill they come into effect.

Generally I ask similar information from my opponent.

Havock
14-12-2011, 12:40
I always do a short rundown on my army pre-game:
It usually goes like this:
"Sorceror lord on disc, level 4,
exalted BSB, halberd
20 warriors, shields, full command,
20 warriors, shield, full command
20 chosen, shields, halberds, full command
dogs, dogs, dogs
hellcannon
warshrine
Everything that can take a mark has Mark of Tzeentch."

Clear enough. Excel sheet + doublechecking with calc leaves little chance for mistakes.

Memnos
14-12-2011, 14:35
Thats a good point about FAQs, I've taken to keeping a copy of all the FAQs for the armies I play in a folder and taking it with me to games, as well as keeping abreast of the FAQs for the game's other armies. You'd be surprised how often a gamer hasn't read the FAQ for their own army and ends up playing things wrong.

Hahah. Too true. Always best to tell them ahead of time, though. Do you really want to be the guy to say "According to the FAQ, my 8 strong skirmisher unit, because it curved around you and had the extreme left one not be directly in front of you, but is an eighth of an inch closer, means your unit has to turn 90 degrees before you can charge. And I flee."

Nonsensical FAQs sprung on someone during the game is just wrong.

Wishing
14-12-2011, 15:02
It's interesting that Warhammer is the only game I've heard of that contains the principle of hiding details about your army list from your opponent (with magical items being secret). This is not found in 40k or any other GW game I remember playing, nor do you see it in any non-GW miniature game I've played.

Does anyone know of any other games that have this feature? And does it make Warhammer better or worse to have this feature, or is it irrelevant in terms of an enjoyable game experience?

I'm curious about people's opinions about this...

jack da greenskin
14-12-2011, 15:03
Hahah. Too true. Always best to tell them ahead of time, though. Do you really want to be the guy to say "According to the FAQ, my 8 strong skirmisher unit, because it curved around you and had the extreme left one not be directly in front of you, but is an eighth of an inch closer, means your unit has to turn 90 degrees before you can charge. And I flee."

Nonsensical FAQs sprung on someone during the game is just wrong.

I agree with what you're saying, but isnt it all player's duty to keep up to date, after all FAQs should be clarification on how the rule IS MEANT to be played, not a change that screws with people.

Memnos
14-12-2011, 15:32
I agree with what you're saying, but isnt it all player's duty to keep up to date, after all FAQs should be clarification on how the rule IS MEANT to be played, not a change that screws with people.

Sure, but the last time I had to go on Parker Brothers' Monopoly web page to get the 'latest FAQ' was... Uh... Never. Why should someone have to go on the internet to find the latest FAQ before every game just in case something has changed?

So I guess I'm saying: No. It's not the player's duty to keep up to date. If you're going to spring something on him that is in the FAQ but makes no sense, then you should tell him.

Example that spring to mind: Lizardmen - You can't stomp Skinks if there also happen to be Kroxigor in the unit, but not in base contact. This doesn't apply to Skaven pushing a Screaming Bell. Just Skinks.

Feefait
14-12-2011, 16:18
Thanks Memnos. I was going to start a topic about the need for Faq'S but they just aggravate me now. I love getting a call from my friend saying "by the way the new Skaven faqs are up and you play your army wrong." It's awesome. I am sick of having to have things "clarified". Why can't we just play and have fun? I understand new editions and new rules, and with things now so different, but in general just play the game. find what works and go with it. I think FAQs are being used to often for the power of evil, not good. :)

Avian
14-12-2011, 16:23
Does anyone know of any other games that have this feature? And does it make Warhammer better or worse to have this feature, or is it irrelevant in terms of an enjoyable game experience?

I'm curious about people's opinions about this...
Other games just don't have the same level of customizability. Often there is no option to buy much in the way of gear at all.

The bearded one
14-12-2011, 16:34
Also I think hidden magic item/models makes it more enjoyable. Your opponent might always have a trick up his sleeve and you might have some hidden weapon to stop that stegadon your opponent gleefully rammed into your unit (rune of might on BSB ftw!)

Memnos
14-12-2011, 17:00
Also I think hidden magic item/models makes it more enjoyable. Your opponent might always have a trick up his sleeve and you might have some hidden weapon to stop that stegadon your opponent gleefully rammed into your unit (rune of might on BSB ftw!)

For sure. I like being surprised, or being beaten by a good player. In fact, as long as the players in question are just looking for a good game, I love playing them regardless of whether it's open or shut.

I would say 'Don't be a ******' should be the number one rule of fun gaming.

Gradek
14-12-2011, 17:08
My only thought on this is that while it is fun to surprise an opponent (or be surprised by an opponent) on particular magic items/banners, my fear with keeping stuff secret until used is that if someone got a build wrong (disallowed item combination/over points) that you might have just wasted a ton of time that could have been avoided very simply. And saying that well, the second item (or whatever) when revealed just wouldn't count still gets away from the fact that the person had the advantage of not having to actually select between two items, but got to have them both an guarantee one got used.

Mirbeau
14-12-2011, 17:30
Generally speaking how much do you reveal about your army before the game begins? Do you allow your opponent to peruse your full list before the start of a game, or do you tell them nothing at all other than what their eyes can see of the models you put down?

Heres a few more specific questions regarding information sharing

1. Would you tell your opponent which units had command options or equipment options that weren't immediately obvious from the model (like the difference between light and heavy armour, warmachine upgrades like runes, skulls of the foe etc)?
2. Would you share your characters magic item combos before the battle, or divulge any magic banners carried by your units?
3. What about hidden units like Fanatics or Assassins, would you share how many fanatics/assassins you had over the whole army or not? I guess its a given that you don't tell them where they actually are.
4. Do you tell them which characters is your general or, for example if you were playing Tomb Kings, would you say which priest was your hierophant?


Intresting to see the range of responses.

1- When I place my units I state their basic equipment and upgrades - eg. 30 spearmen, with full command, shields and light armour. Runes, skulls of the foe etc I don't think I would mention until they're used, they're akin to magic items right? - I'd likely say Catapult... with something nasty.... etc when deploying.
2- Nope, merely what they are, lores and magic levels.
3- Nope.
4- Yes, it is essential here.

Items revealed as used.

Wishing
14-12-2011, 22:26
Other games just don't have the same level of customizability. Often there is no option to buy much in the way of gear at all.

I suppose that's true... except in the case of 40k, which, at least in the olden days, had just as much customization as Warhammer, yet never had any secret item clauses that I remember. Were grenades and such secret in 2nd ed? Are they still? If not, would 40k be better (as per the bearded one's response above) if they were?

Bobtheogre
14-12-2011, 22:34
I provide my opponent with a copy of my army list from Army Builder, so there is no questions as to what I have and dont have. I wish my opponents would do the same as a game could go much faster if I didnt have to ask for Weapons Skills and Toughness and such, as I state what Im rolling, what I need, and the results to my opponent while were playing.

I find that the above raises my sportsmanship scores, even though Im just being meticulous.

Spiney Norman
15-12-2011, 09:44
Thanks Memnos. I was going to start a topic about the need for Faq'S but they just aggravate me now. I love getting a call from my friend saying "by the way the new Skaven faqs are up and you play your army wrong." It's awesome. I am sick of having to have things "clarified". Why can't we just play and have fun? I understand new editions and new rules, and with things now so different, but in general just play the game. find what works and go with it. I think FAQs are being used to often for the power of evil, not good. :)

Isn't that more to do with the fact that they waste reems of space in their FAQs by answering questions that are already perfectly clear from the army book and BRB, or even worse, answering questions that are perfectly clear already and getting the answers wrong so as to completely change how a rule or item works.

Memnos
15-12-2011, 09:57
Isn't that more to do with the fact that they waste reems of space in their FAQs by answering questions that are already perfectly clear from the army book and BRB, or even worse, answering questions that are perfectly clear already and getting the answers wrong so as to completely change how a rule or item works.

This. I prefer gaming with adults and we usually let things slide, but occasionally pickup games involve people who are desperate to win and game the system. I don't like the way I get when someone is being *******. I want to be a better person than the guy I am at that point. :P