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ted1138
14-12-2011, 19:19
Ever find yourself arguing with someone over a simple rule, and no matter how simple it is, you find you just can’t get through to them?

I had that today. A simple 1,500 point Grey Knight on Grey Knight battle, Annihilation and Dawn of War set up, my opponent going 1st, me going 2nd. Simple. Until Start of 2nd turn when he’s shooting me with both his Vindicare Assassins, from the middle of the table. I asked where they came from(as you would) and he said he’d used “Infiltrate” to place them there. Simple(I thought) and pointed out he couldn’t deploy Elite choices during deployment, as we were using the DoW set up. He got quite shirty, and said fine, they “Infiltrated” during his 1st turn. I(quite reasonably) pointed out that he couldn’t do that, as Infiltrate only worked in the Deployment phase like that, and that if he wanted to bring them on he would have to bring them on from his table edge in turn one, or bring them on from reserves from turn two(using infiltrate to pick table edge). After a bit of sulking(and a dice roll, that I won) he agreed.

So, back to turn two, he rolls for both, brings them on, and… Shoots his sniper rifles(yes, you guessed, heavy weapons). We now had an argument over whether moving on from reserve was actually ‘moving’… :(

Mozzamanx
14-12-2011, 19:23
Just throwing it out there, Vindicares are also 0-1. So to add another level of fun, he can't even use 2 in a single game.

It's also amazing how many people use FNP wrong, in terms of "no save = no FNP! Look at the rules!". Also Grey Knights trying to use Force Weapons and Hammerhand at the same time, or thinking Grey Knights ICs use the Brotherhood rule regarding Force Weaponry..

Frustrating.

massey
14-12-2011, 19:29
It normally comes from people either not fully understanding their rules (which isn't that uncommon, and as I get older and play less, happens to me on occasion), or willfully ignoring them. The first is easy enough to fix. The second is someone who really really wants to do something and will argue for it regardless of how clear it is.

LonelyPath
14-12-2011, 19:29
Just throwing it out there, Vindicares are also 0-1. So to add another level of fun, he can't even use 2 in a single game.

It's also amazing how many people use FNP wrong, in terms of "no save = no FNP! Look at the rules!". Also Grey Knights trying to use Force Weapons and Hammerhand at the same time, or thinking Grey Knights ICs use the Brotherhood rule regarding Force Weaponry..

Frustrating.

Very true, I play GK and am always correcting other players on how to use their lists. I did mistakenly deploy a Vindicare using DoW once, as I'd done it out of habit. I then removed it again almost right away with a "oops, that shouldn't be there" as it was honest mistake and explained to my opponent what I'd done as they'd not noticed.

Also, moving on from reverse (including Outflanking) is moving. You start your movement off the table and then have to move at least the base size on to the table, that's movement. he could have fired his Exitus Pistol though ;)

I am just glad that Vindicares do not have Relentless, then they would be broken beyond all reason, lol!

Lord Damocles
14-12-2011, 19:33
Hur hur.

It's funny 'cos it's true.



People trying to argue that they can deploy multiple Troops units in dedicated transports during Dawn of War deployment is also a good one.
Despite the fact that that's the very example given in the rulebook!

ted1138
14-12-2011, 19:38
"Also Grey Knights trying to use Force Weapons and Hammerhand at the same time"


They can't?(really?)

Mozzamanx
14-12-2011, 19:43
Well no. 'Activating' a Force Weapon qualifies as a Psychic Power, and the vast majority of GK units can only cast one per turn. For everyone outside the HQ choice, you have to choose between Force, Hammerhand and your squad-unique Psychic Power.

Note that you always get the power-weapon aspect of it, plus any bonuses conferred by the weapon (+2I for Halberds, +1A for Falchions etc), but you won't get any Instant-Kill benefits unless you sacrifice Hammerhand that turn.

LonelyPath
14-12-2011, 19:45
"Also Grey Knights trying to use Force Weapons and Hammerhand at the same time"


They can't?(really?)

Well, they can if they have a psi mastery high enough, or if a attached HQ GK uses Hammerhand (which does carry over to the squad) and then the non-HQ activates the force weapons to make the best of it with most, if not all wounds. At least that's how I've always played it.

ted1138
14-12-2011, 19:45
So the "activating" only applies the Instant death part, all the other rules for the weapon apply anyway?

LonelyPath
14-12-2011, 19:47
Yep, you only need to activate for the Instant Death effect.

ted1138
14-12-2011, 19:54
Well it's only of use against multi wound enemies, like Dreadnights(killed one today with one wound, I failed my test to activate my force halbards, but he failed his psychic test too), so I'll just use Hammerhand most of the time. Cheers. :)

LonelyPath
14-12-2011, 20:11
Yeah, I use them pretty much the same as you for the ID effect. it's wasted on anything else. Though it is fun to kill Tyranid Warriors with them, lol.

ColShaw
14-12-2011, 20:15
I can't even count how many times people have tried to stop Heavy Flamers from firing on the move with my Sisters of Battle.

Them: "They're Heavy weapons! It says Heavy right there in the name!"

Me: "Um... no." (open rulebook to well-worn page where it says "Assault" next to the weapon entry)

Lord Damocles
14-12-2011, 20:18
I can't even count how many times people have tried to stop Heavy Flamers from firing on the move with my Sisters of Battle.
A problem delightfully inverted by Codex: Armageddon Daemonhunters :p

Grimtuff
14-12-2011, 20:20
A problem delightfully inverted by Codex: Armageddon :p

Refresh my memory, did they misprint HF's as Heavy in the Salamander list in there or something?

Lord Damocles
14-12-2011, 20:29
Refresh my memory, did they misprint HF's as Heavy in the Salamander list in there or something?
Bah! Going crazy.

It was Codex: Daemonhunters which had the Heavy Heavy Flamer :o

Bunnahabhain
14-12-2011, 20:48
I can't even count how many times people have tried to stop Heavy Flamers from firing on the move with my Sisters of Battle.

Them: "They're Heavy weapons! It says Heavy right there in the name!"

Me: "Um... no." (open rulebook to well-worn page where it says "Assault" next to the weapon entry)

To match the heavy assault cannons then...

Most simple rules arguments are one of two things:
1)People don't know the rules

2) GW rules simply don't cover it, i.e What happens if you fail a 'gets hot' induced morale test in a transport?

ted1138
14-12-2011, 21:05
What about simple things, like the time a friend said he was "turning-off" rapid fire on his bolt guns, as he'd moved and it was preventing him from firing at full range. Try coming up with a simple way to explain you can't do that.

Sons of Lorgar
14-12-2011, 21:05
To match the heavy assault cannons then...
2) GW rules simply don't cover it, i.e What happens if you fail a 'gets hot' induced morale test in a transport?

Gets hot doesn't induce morale tests afik. (only casualties from shooting or loosing an assault does, and gets hot is neither.)

Nurgling Chieftain
14-12-2011, 21:16
Gets hot doesn't induce morale tests afik. (only casualties from shooting or loosing an assault does, and gets hot is neither.)Doesn't matter where the casualties come from, if you lose 25% casualties in the movement or shooting phases (or even the assault phase if it wasn't from close combat), you have to test.


What about simple things, like the time a friend said he was "turning-off" rapid fire on his bolt guns, as he'd moved and it was preventing him from firing at full range. Try coming up with a simple way to explain you can't do that.Forget explaining it, just turn off Heavy on your lascannons next turn. :D

Cortez
14-12-2011, 21:21
moving IC out the unit through cover using 3d6 then the squad that he WAS in then hes back in the unit again allowing the IC closer than the unit. anyone get me?
we just rolled off because it doesnt say anything in the rulebook.
I dont really care in games but my friends do.
Peace

ted1138
14-12-2011, 21:48
"Forget explaining it, just turn off Heavy on your lascannons next turn."

I said he could, but only if he modeled a tiny(working) Fire Selector switch on each bolter...

Bunnahabhain
14-12-2011, 21:59
Gets hot doesn't induce morale tests afik. (only casualties from shooting or loosing an assault does, and gets hot is neither.)

Doesn't matter where the casualties come from, if you lose 25% casualties in the movement or shooting phases (or even the assault phase if it wasn't from close combat), you have to test.


Thank you both for proving the point rather well.

Cry of the Wind
14-12-2011, 23:26
What about simple things, like the time a friend said he was "turning-off" rapid fire on his bolt guns, as he'd moved and it was preventing him from firing at full range. Try coming up with a simple way to explain you can't do that.

Wait, what?!!

I've only had problems getting editions mixed up. Really awkward when you are a rules judge at a tourny :angel:

Most simple errors only need a look at the rule in question. Convincing someone that they need to re-read it can be a problem though.

Rated_lexxx
15-12-2011, 01:22
Hur hur.

It's funny 'cos it's true.



People trying to argue that they can deploy multiple Troops units in dedicated transports during Dawn of War deployment is also a good one.
Despite the fact that that's the very example given in the rulebook!

Tell me about it. I still have people who argue it even after the example is given in the book" The book is wrong" or " It had to be errated" is what I hear often

enygma7
15-12-2011, 10:05
The OPs post is a very good example of what happens when people get too invested in a rules arguement - the inherent bias people have when they want/need a particular result can scew all logic and get in the way of an amicable and reasonable result. That and the guy was just being very very wrong :)

Its always best to resolve any differences before it becomes an issue if that's possible. Its the reason I love pre-measuring in my games because you can agree with your opponent whether something is in range/out of site/whatever before either of you have anything invested in the outcome. So here's hoping 6th introduces pre-measuring.

ted1138
15-12-2011, 11:46
How about when your opponent says he's using his "psychic communication" power, and you point out it's actually called "psychic communion", to which he huffs and says(in a very patronising tone) that it is "psychic communication". So, you open the book at the page for that power, and point at where the name "psychic communion" is printed, and he looks at you and says he doesn't need to look at it to know he's right...

Born Again
15-12-2011, 12:11
Well no. 'Activating' a Force Weapon qualifies as a Psychic Power, and the vast majority of GK units can only cast one per turn. For everyone outside the HQ choice, you have to choose between Force, Hammerhand and your squad-unique Psychic Power.


This is the same reason Chaos Sorcerors with Warp Time are rather naff, getting the re-rolls to hit/ wound stops you using the insta-kill.

Malagate
15-12-2011, 13:01
How about when your opponent says he's using his "psychic communication" power, and you point out it's actually called "psychic communion", to which he huffs and says(in a very patronising tone) that it is "psychic communication". So, you open the book at the page for that power, and point at where the name "psychic communion" is printed, and he looks at you and says he doesn't need to look at it to know he's right...

What the heck are you playing against? The stubbornest mule in all the land?
I've been there as well...in the stubborn guy's shoes :D at least I admitted I was wrong the moment it was pointed out to me! Patronising tones as well, oh the shame :o

Best bet is to have the most robust understanding of the rules, as well as have a a really clear way to explain how they work along with examples. Most people I find are quite reasonable, if you can come across as not patronising and as not trying to get an unfair advantage then 5 minutes to show them the error of their ways shouldn't be hard.

...most of the time :shifty: Weapons-grade stubborness and perhaps even willful ignorance is very hard to shift with reason. Taking the unreasonable path may work better there (i.e. "turning off rapid fire" = "turning off Heavy on your Lascannons", I like that :chrome:), turning the tables may cause some actual thinking to happen!

enygma7
15-12-2011, 13:13
...most of the time :shifty: Weapons-grade stubborness and perhaps even willful ignorance is very hard to shift with reason. Taking the unreasonable path may work better

I recently heard someone say "you can be in the right, or you can fix the problem, you can rarely achieve both". If you want to bring someone round to your point of view its best to avoid being confrontational or point scoring, that just entrenches someones opposition to you. Of course, if someones being totally pig headed and unreasonable that makes things difficult. But if someone had worked out a way to speak reason to the unreasonable this world would be a better place :)

LonelyPath
15-12-2011, 13:31
I had one yesterday with a guy trying to place bio-acid spore mines when his Meiotic Spore went Kaboom. I had to explain to him that those spores no longer existed in the game and he wouldn't have it, then dug out a copy of the 4E Nids codex and pointed them out. I asked him if he had the 5E codex, he did and pointed to him that he uses the current codex since his list (apart from some FW things) was drawn from that and he can't pick and choose the rules he wanted. He also had IA Apoc 2nd edition on him and showed him in there that he should be using those rules for the Meiotic, not the earlier ones.

Not so much getting the rules wrong there, but him wanting to pick and choose the rules he wanted to use...

Chapters Unwritten
15-12-2011, 14:11
As someone who runs a large-ish club I have noticed a trend, and that is that a very large number of people do not learn the game by way of reading the book. They are "taught" the game, or worse, "pick up" the game as friends play, and then they simply dive in...their rules knowledge is comprised entirely of corrections and rules knowledge granted by the players they face who point out their mistakes.

So in other words...many players have never read the rules. Full stop.

The problem with this of course is that people who do this also play each other a lot, and many times their errors are not corrected. Fortunately everyone we play with is amicable and accepts that a game as complex as this has spots they simply will forget or won't know offhand.

Another big problem I see is older gamers, almost all of whom that I've dealt with seem very used to just doing whatever they want. One guy who comes to our place is consistently a problem in this regard (though fortunately he only plays his one friend, as he considers the rest of "elitist" for following the rules "every little rule"). Some of the stuff this guy does is pretty out there, but what makes it annoying is that his whole basis for why he is doing it is that this is simply how he wants to play. I know the rulebook says we can change around what we like, but he seems to take that as an invitation to just do whatever he pleases willy-nilly, as opposed to agreed-upon changes with an opponent.

In a Kill Team event we held, he gave all of his Space Wolves odd rules for his three USRs. Relentless on a guy with a pistol, and counterattack on another guy (and I'm sure we can all see why that is stupid). It was like he never read the rules or the codex, almost; he often doesn't even know the +1A on the charge rule. He played a seasoned pro who offered to let him change his list in the first round and he basically immediately told the dude some stuff along the lines of "I'm a grown man and I don't really want you to tell me what to do." He then quit after the first round and zero-scored his opponent.

Another time, I caught him using 6 Fast Attack choices, 3 of which were Land Speeder Storms. When I pointed out to him that Space Wolves aren't supposed to take those, he was upset, but amicable - but scarily enough, told me that not only did he not know he couldn't have them, but that he also didn't know about the Scouts' "Behind Enemy Lines" rule. It's like he just bought the model without a thought, and surely he must never have looked up anything about it because in his Space Wolves codex he would've found nothing. This means the dude basically buys models and rolls dice and whatever he feels is appropriate for the stuff is what he seems to feel they do. Insane.

He also finds any attempt to rectify this completely invasive and insulting, and goes on about how he's just here to have fun and hey, I'm sorry if I don't know every little rule, and hey, you play how you want and I'll play how I want.

Why even have rules, then?

ihavetoomuchminis
15-12-2011, 14:36
As someone who runs a large-ish club I have noticed a trend, and that is that a very large number of people do not learn the game by way of reading the book. They are "taught" the game, or worse, "pick up" the game as friends play, and then they simply dive in...their rules knowledge is comprised entirely of corrections and rules knowledge granted by the players they face who point out their mistakes.

So in other words...many players have never read the rules. Full stop.

The problem with this of course is that people who do this also play each other a lot, and many times their errors are not corrected. Fortunately everyone we play with is amicable and accepts that a game as complex as this has spots they simply will forget or won't know offhand.

Another big problem I see is older gamers, almost all of whom that I've dealt with seem very used to just doing whatever they want. One guy who comes to our place is consistently a problem in this regard (though fortunately he only plays his one friend, as he considers the rest of "elitist" for following the rules "every little rule"). Some of the stuff this guy does is pretty out there, but what makes it annoying is that his whole basis for why he is doing it is that this is simply how he wants to play. I know the rulebook says we can change around what we like, but he seems to take that as an invitation to just do whatever he pleases willy-nilly, as opposed to agreed-upon changes with an opponent.

In a Kill Team event we held, he gave all of his Space Wolves odd rules for his three USRs. Relentless on a guy with a pistol, and counterattack on another guy (and I'm sure we can all see why that is stupid). It was like he never read the rules or the codex, almost; he often doesn't even know the +1A on the charge rule. He played a seasoned pro who offered to let him change his list in the first round and he basically immediately told the dude some stuff along the lines of "I'm a grown man and I don't really want you to tell me what to do." He then quit after the first round and zero-scored his opponent.

Another time, I caught him using 6 Fast Attack choices, 3 of which were Land Speeder Storms. When I pointed out to him that Space Wolves aren't supposed to take those, he was upset, but amicable - but scarily enough, told me that not only did he not know he couldn't have them, but that he also didn't know about the Scouts' "Behind Enemy Lines" rule. It's like he just bought the model without a thought, and surely he must never have looked up anything about it because in his Space Wolves codex he would've found nothing. This means the dude basically buys models and rolls dice and whatever he feels is appropriate for the stuff is what he seems to feel they do. Insane.

He also finds any attempt to rectify this completely invasive and insulting, and goes on about how he's just here to have fun and hey, I'm sorry if I don't know every little rule, and hey, you play how you want and I'll play how I want.

Why even have rules, then?

I've found it to be the same in my LGS. Many of the younglins there play according to what they have been told by other younglins, who have been playing according to some rules in a word document they downloaded from the interwebz. And when you tell them "you can't do that" or "that's not how the rules work"....they seem to be surprised, and even upset sometimes. It's really discouraging.

Chapters Unwritten
15-12-2011, 14:58
This is why we have a communal rulebook, and also often just ask the question to the crowd. The answers are usually pretty much unanimous, and folks are generally amicable. One guy might be wrong but a whole group of people who've been playing for years is harder to argue with.

The one guy in my stories above is the only person I've ever seen who just literally doesn't care.

Grimtuff
15-12-2011, 16:23
I've found it to be the same in my LGS. Many of the younglins there play according to what they have been told by other younglins, who have been playing according to some rules in a word document they downloaded from the interwebz. And when you tell them "you can't do that" or "that's not how the rules work"....they seem to be surprised, and even upset sometimes. It's really discouraging.

Indeed one incident of note was the kid who was using Mycetic spores for his Nids (current codex) I asked him where the models were he replied "There's no model for them, so I don't have to use one"

Can't fault that logic... :wtf:

Rated_lexxx
15-12-2011, 16:59
Indeed one incident of note was the kid who was using Mycetic spores for his Nids (current codex) I asked him where the models were he replied "There's no model for them, so I don't have to use one"

Can't fault that logic... :wtf:

"Just because my ideas lack logic...."

ted1138
15-12-2011, 18:10
I have a friend who stormed off one day over me using a twin linked Lascannon. He claimed I was cheating when I re-rolled the dice, so I showed him the rules for twin linked weapons, which he accepted with a "well it may be in the rules, but it's still beardy". When I wouldn't agree not to use it against him, he quite...

Konovalev
15-12-2011, 18:38
I had someone tell me back in 3rd that my Crisis suits couldn't make their assault phase jump because they had fired rapid-fire weapons in the shooting phase and you can't shoot rapid fire and assault in the same turn...

I tried to explain to him that making the assault phase jet pack move was not the same as assaulting, and that furthermore crisis suits were relentless when it came to firing rapid-fire weapons so I could have assaulted anyway. He then declared Tau overpowered and quit.

13713
15-12-2011, 18:58
He then declared Tau overpowered and quit.

They are totally overpowerd thats why I play them. We also shoot laser beams out of our eyes, and can crap plasma rounds.

I have only been part of a player quiting in frustration once. In his defense he had 2 straight rounds of bad dice rolls and half his army routed off the table. He also lost his job and had a major arguement with his wife so I don't think he was having the best of days to begin with.

The louder an oppenent is in defending their questionable rules usage the more it usually means they are fully aware that they are either skirting the line of breaking a rule and or are completely flustered that their hand was caught in the cookie jar and they want to start an argument in hopes that you will back down from pointing out the bad play and allow it to happen.

DYoung
15-12-2011, 20:14
Indeed one incident of note was the kid who was using Mycetic spores for his Nids (current codex) I asked him where the models were he replied "There's no model for them, so I don't have to use one"

Can't fault that logic... :wtf:

I'm pretty sure this is how Mycetic Spores were played in the past, there never was a model for them and you never needed one. It was a similar situation with Drop Pods. Until GW actually brought out a model for them, you didn't need to use one.

Chapters Unwritten
15-12-2011, 20:27
There was never a rule saying you didn't need one, as far as I know. It was an option with no model, just like a thousand other things.

war_ripper
15-12-2011, 20:48
the GK character can activate Hammerhands, and then the squad can activate force weapons, so the whole unit has +1s, and the brotherhood minus the IC have active force weapons.

Grimtuff
15-12-2011, 22:08
I'm pretty sure this is how Mycetic Spores were played in the past, there never was a model for them and you never needed one. It was a similar situation with Drop Pods. Until GW actually brought out a model for them, you didn't need to use one.

Note how I said this was a kid (so had been playing for less than a year tops) and using the current Tyranid codex where Mycetic Spores are a transport option for many units and have a statline et al. ;)

Born Again
16-12-2011, 00:06
I know of someone who played the Dawn of War game, and then decided to try out 40k. Come the movement phase, they picked up their models and placed them anywhere they pleased on the table, even far over on the other side of the board - 'clicking' where ever on the DoW game screen they wanted their units to move to :p When it was explained that models could only move 6", they declared that to be a stupid rule.

Sinnertje
16-12-2011, 01:18
The only problem I've had so far was in WHFB. And it wasn't even the guy I was playing with (who was new). It was some random guy butting in.
Apparently cannons in WHFB automatically hit everything in a line from the model to wherever the shot ends...:wtf: That'd mean that you just say you shoot the full distance it can shoot and hit everything.. :eyebrows:

That said, I generally don't play many random people.

Morgrad
16-12-2011, 15:13
The part I love is when someone is 100% wrong, but wants to force a d6 to determine how it would be played. Things like that is why I just play with my buddies now.

IcedCrow
16-12-2011, 15:25
The only problem I've had so far was in WHFB. And it wasn't even the guy I was playing with (who was new). It was some random guy butting in.
Apparently cannons in WHFB automatically hit everything in a line from the model to wherever the shot ends...:wtf: That'd mean that you just say you shoot the full distance it can shoot and hit everything.. :eyebrows:

That said, I generally don't play many random people.

lol that guy was very very very wrong.

Chapters Unwritten
16-12-2011, 15:27
I don't know why people seem to resort to giving up so much. If you are in a rules dispute and the guy wants a dice-off when you are sure you're right...pull out the book and show him, and if he wants to do otherwise pack your stuff, flip him the bird, and go game with someone else.

Corvus Corone
16-12-2011, 15:39
I don't know why people seem to resort to giving up so much. If you are in a rules dispute and the guy wants a dice-off when you are sure you're right...pull out the book and show him, and if he wants to do otherwise pack your stuff, flip him the bird, and go game with someone else.

It's a good thing not many people do this, as it works when you're wrong too. You just don't know.

Griefbringer
16-12-2011, 16:00
Apparently cannons in WHFB automatically hit everything in a line from the model to wherever the shot ends...:wtf:

Perhaps that person was only familiar with WHFB 3rd edition, where things worked like that (though the cannonball would stop after going through 6 ranks).

de Selby
16-12-2011, 16:26
I'm pretty sure this is how Mycetic Spores were played in the past, there never was a model for them and you never needed one. It was a similar situation with Drop Pods. Until GW actually brought out a model for them, you didn't need to use one.

It's very much like drop pods. IIRC, in 3rd ed marines had a 'drop pod rule' which allowed them to deep strike with no model required. In 4th GW introduced the rules for the drop pod itself but no GW model. In 5th they actually deigned to start selling them to us.

Tyranids have had rules for mycetic spore style deep strike for a while (eg some Apocalypse formations). They've now reached phase two in 5th edition, where there are rules for the pod itself but no model, and maybe in 6th ed we'll get another wave and an actual mycetic spore kit to play with.



Anyway I forget the current rules all the time. I do try and get them right though.

Chapters Unwritten
16-12-2011, 17:29
It's a good thing not many people do this, as it works when you're wrong too. You just don't know.How does looking up the rule in the book work if you are wrong? I'm confused.