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tu33y
15-12-2011, 16:06
this is a genuine question and HONESTLY not trolling...

why have so many people fell in love with the pre-heresy stuff? it really seems to have captured a largesection of the comunities attention, and i just dont really get it.

and its not because im a guard player, as there are lots of guard stuff i dont get either (valhallans, preatorians)

so my question is,

do YOU find your self drawn to pre-heresy minis and rules, and why? is there a logical reason or does it just push buttons in your hind-brain to make you want it on an emmotional level?

ColShaw
15-12-2011, 16:12
I think there's a few reasons:

1) The Horus Heresy is so much at the heart of the 40K storyline. It's rich with mythic resonance (King Arthur and Mordred, especially). Diving into that is a neat concept.

2) There's a lot of concept art that is pretty evocative from that period, allowing modelers to do some neat conversion work.

3) The evolution of the models (the Land Raider is a good example) allow long-time collectors to go back and revisit the styles of their early playing days, but with updated and better-quality minis. Look at Forgeworld's new pre-heresy Land Raider kits for an example of this.

Garanaul the Black
15-12-2011, 16:19
Absolutely, and its because of all of the points mentioned.

Black Library is really at the epicenter of blame though, the Horus Heresy series has thoroughly immersed me in the 30K setting. Added to the fact that I play multiple flavors of Chaos (where any and all marks of armor, vehicles, ect. can be found) and it makes even more sense.


G

stroller
15-12-2011, 16:24
Nope I don't get it either. But then I don't get Napoleonics either. I'll stick to 40K. If others want to play 30K, feel free - but here - meh.

Voss
15-12-2011, 16:26
do YOU find your self drawn to pre-heresy minis and rules, and why? is there a logical reason or does it just push buttons in your hind-brain to make you want it on an emmotional level?

Not really. The Heresy (at least a lot of the details) and 'pre-Heresy' armour and vehicles were added _after_ I got into the game. It wasn't much more than a footnote in the original Rogue Trader book (the Emperor was in the golden throne, but the why wasn't a big deal). And of course the HH novels just annoy me because (aside from the badly written ones), they are changing a fair amount of stuff, or just blatantly getting it wrong (particularly the motivations of the major characters which are generally two dimensional or just insanely nonsensical or altogether nonexistant).

On the other hand, I do like the LR proteus that FW put together (though not the 'armoured' one), but I don't think of it as 'pre-Heresy' land raider- just the original version that was replaced for no real reason.

Cry of the Wind
15-12-2011, 16:30
I like having more versions of armour to make my marines unique looking. They always talk about armour being handed down over the years so having a mismash of parts from damaged suits makes sense to me since I play a 2nd Founding Chapter and they would have lots of relic bits.

Do I care about them because they are old marks? No, but the history and new look they add to a model are really neat. Even if you said all the old stuff was modern era I would still get it.

Shameless plug, in my log you can see what I have done mixing armour from all the marks out now.

loveless
15-12-2011, 16:33
It doesn't really spark my interest. I don't mind reading the quick summaries of the books, but I don't really care - that and Black Library writing is often hard to swallow when sober.

I do like some of the old armor Mks - I do plan on getting some Mk III suits for Sternguard one of these days. The Deimos Rhino is pretty cool as well.

Brotheroracle
15-12-2011, 16:35
Its simple really:
40k= Epic
30k= Epic+

gutsmaka
15-12-2011, 16:36
I dont get it either. it changes the look of your army a bit, but its SOOO xpencive compared to normal stuff. I'll stick to standard marines thanks

Hrw-Amen
15-12-2011, 17:08
Whilst I like the look of the armour and SM stuff I have not bought much yet due to price. However I like the whole setting. Admittedly a lot of th BL stuff is not that well written though.

I think it is because it is something new to look at. I mean that in the manner that W40K universe seems to be pretty much stuck in time and does not evolve. The only way to go therefore is back, it seems for the writers as well as the gamers and modellers if you want something different.

Yes, I know that the Cain novels give dates a little into the future and one or two other mentions here and there, but generally the whole theme is stuck in the current time. After a while, no matter have epic the scope of the whole universe it gets a bit boring and people need something else to grab their attention that is slightly different whilst still keeping on subject.

Voss
15-12-2011, 17:13
Its simple really:
40k= Epic
30k= Epic+

Hmm. No. That can't be right. If Hollywood has taught me anything, its that epic only means underdeveloped plot, story and characters hidden by the excessive use of explosions. I don't think you can add any more explosions to 40K to yield 30K.

Utred
15-12-2011, 17:14
Its simple really:
40k= Epic
30k= Epic+

But why? I don't understand the Epic+ either?

I do like the visuals of the MKV Heresy armour. Part of me would love to do a World Eaters pre-Heresy army. In someways I guess my draw to that would be effectively the draw of the fluff of the Blood Angels. You know the nobility is going to end in a gore soaked mess. It's the tragedy that is the draw there. BUT... it's not a big enough draw for me to actually spend money on it. :p

Corvus Corone
15-12-2011, 17:18
If the 40k universe was like an active volcano, then the heresy was the erruption. All the galaxy was ablaze in conflict, space marine legions and human armies of incomprehensible size sundered all before them, the technological might of man was (although not at its peak) far more intact than it is in the 41st millenium.

Everything was in flux. Everything was possible.

Since the horus heresey, like the lava floes from the volcanoe, everything has been slowing down and getting irreversably colder. The number of possibilities for mankind are in decline, as each technological relic, hero of imperium and piece of understanding are gradually lost with each passing year.

It's like we're playing with the leftovers from the main event.

That's not to say that the 41st millenium isn't a great place for tabletop battles (I firmly believe it is) or a great place for background (I also firmly believe that the 41st millenium is amazing for that too) - it's just that, in the grand scheme of things, the 30k stuff is set right in the most important part of mankinds history, rather than it's aftermath. Which is pretty damn exciting for many people.

zerodemon
15-12-2011, 18:06
@Corvus Corone has hit the nail on the head. People like to be a part of something that was actually important to the background. The events since (other than, say, The Badab War or Age of Apostacy) have been a lot smaller in terms of death, upheaval and scale. People want the crazy.

Bloodknight
15-12-2011, 18:34
I don't get it either. To me the Heresy was cooler when they all were mythical creatures.

Harwammer
15-12-2011, 18:56
I don't get it either. To me the Heresy was cooler when they all were mythical creatures.

I think it's a bit of a shame that (from an 40k perspective) the heresy is meant to be shrouded in mystery with the facts lost to time's decay yet we, the player, seem to have more knowledge of the heresy era than the proper 40k era the fluff is supposed to take perspective from!

I'm not saying we should know more about the heresy, rather it would be good to have EVEN MORE fluff for the period between then and 40,999. People want the setting to progress forward but there are so many potential details and stories left untouched in those thousands of years!

Korraz
15-12-2011, 20:43
Most people fall in love with HERESY stuff.
Not. Pre-Heresy.

Anyway, I used to like the Heresy, before it became popular. It was great because it was a darn mistery shrouded in lies and conundrums. Now? Now it's just another recollection of "Might Marine Tales of Marineing"

teheuax
15-12-2011, 21:02
I always enjoyed reading about the slow decline of someone into chaos. Which is why I like the Heresy books. But would I play preheresy stuff? I wouldn't want to since my favorite chapter is Black Templar.

theunwantedbeing
15-12-2011, 21:10
In the horus heresy there are no
Tau
Necrons
Tyrannids

Which is awesome because that means there is a far higher percentage of Space marines to everyone else. Everyone loves space marines afterall. Also you get to model them to look more like Knights, and everyone loves those.

FlashGordon
15-12-2011, 21:30
In the horus heresy there are no
Tau
Necrons
Tyrannids

Which is awesome because that means there is a far higher percentage of Space marines to everyone else. Everyone loves space marines afterall. Also you get to model them to look more like Knights, and everyone loves those.

And how is this a bad thing? Fisheads? Undead in space? Zerg in space? give me a break! :skull:

Brother Handro
15-12-2011, 22:24
I think the most obviously appealing aspects have been mention above;

Getting to be part of a fundamental piece of the universe a la Star Wars prequels (but good) ;), creating unique looking armies, often heavily converted, and having the freedom (particularly when building a traitor Legion) of creating your own characters [within the usual certain constraints], be they accident-waiting-to-happen or tragic hero and nobody being able to say you're doing it wrong. Hey, the Imperium deleted all records of the traitors! :D


But for me, the biggest factor in creating a Pre Heresy army is the potential. The fact that some of your Legionnaires will lay down their lives for the Imperium and yet others who survive longer will eventually shed their blood to bring it down. Its the whole classical tragedy vibe, the big What if? What if Primarch X did this instead of that? What if Primarch Y was weaker, or Z strong enough to resist temptation?

When I was a kid I was fascinated by shipwrecks, and seeing recreations of them, and just wondering about the fact that nobody knew what was going to happen. Its quite fatalistic in that respect. You know what's going to happen, but you're still sat there hoping someone will see the cogs turning behing the scenes/music, (or whatever it's described as in one of the first 30k books), and stand up to it.

As a side note, I find the 30k Black Library universe much more refreshing than the 40k nowadays, call me jaded, but 40k is almost too Grimdark, and the more fantastical elements of it (faith can deflect bolt shells, etc) jar slightly in comparison to the (seemingly) secular, upbeat and progressive (unless you're a xenos!) universe of 30k.

tl; dr, greater modelling freedom, unusual paint schemes, classical tragedy.

ForgottenLore
15-12-2011, 23:20
I have always found the Heresy to be massively boring. I don't get it either.

Now, if they wanted to expand the War in Heaven, that could be pretty cool.

Gorbad Ironclaw
15-12-2011, 23:42
I don't get it either. To me the Heresy was cooler when they all were mythical creatures.

That's how I feel as well. Give us some myths to build the setting and set the tone but leave it at that. Dozens of books explaining the supposedly mythical past in exhaustive details just detracts from the mystery.


creating unique looking armies, often heavily converted, and having the freedom (particularly when building a traitor Legion) of creating your own characters [within the usual certain constraints], be they accident-waiting-to-happen or tragic hero and nobody being able to say you're doing it wrong.


But is there any of that you can't do in the "present" setting? It's a big galaxy and it will contain pretty much anything you might care to put into it as long as you stay within a few very wide limits. In some ways the very detailed walk-through of the Heresy we are getting limits your options rather than expanding them.

Born Again
15-12-2011, 23:58
Yeah, I don't really get it either. The novels are cool, and it's good to have the story of those times that created the 40K setting as we now know it, but I don't have an urge to create a heresy era marine army or anything. The Heresy was just the groundwork to the setting that did grab my attention. It has a sense of tragedy to it, but only because we know what will come after. The huge, rotting bulk of the Imperium as it struggles to take every single breath amidst its countless enemies is a far cooler and more epic setting, I think, carrying on that sense of tragedy when you look at how far humanity has fallen.
I think a part of it is probably the same reason I never got in to LOTR either, it's a told story that's said and done, and I don't like re-creating stuff. I'd rather have a whole galaxy to explore in the current setting than fighting out a war where the outcome has already been decided.

Grimtuff
16-12-2011, 00:10
I don't get it either. To me the Heresy was cooler when they all were mythical creatures.

This



Anyway, I used to like the Heresy, before it became popular. It was great because it was a darn mistery shrouded in lies and conundrums. Now? Now it's just another recollection of "Might Marine Tales of Marineing"

and this.

The HH is really a series of stories that should never have been told. Too much of the curtain has been pulled back and a lot of the mythos has been lost as a result. Leave some intrigue and mystery in your work GW. On thing I used to love about the story of the Heresy was how it was LITERALLY passed down from one generation of gamers to the next, adding to it's mystique as more than a few stories may have been "embellished" along the way. It was an actual folk tale in GW circles with whole myths and legends surrounding what supposedly happened.

Now GW comes out with the (as so eloquently put) "Might Marine Tales of Marineing" all of this is lost.

So, in short I really do not get the appeal. Same goes for this "truescaling" malarkey. SM's are already "true scaled" It is the IG that are out of scale and too big.

Culgore
16-12-2011, 00:31
Yeah I think the Heresy really doesn't make much sense. Like I get it that dudes like Lorgar are mad that the Emperor told them there were no gods when the Emperor himself is a god and knew of the existence of other gods.

But in reference to 40K. It would be like I knew of the existence of donkey porn(Chaos gods), but I didn't want you to know about it so I told you it wasn't real and we shouldn't talk about it. Then you go searching for it and find out about it... You get mad about it and try to kill all the people over it.

I enjoy the Horus Heresy books, but it always ends up space marines killing space marines and having to shoot through each others' throats to do it. I prefer the current timeline. Chaos is still the biggest threat, there are Necrons, and Tyranids and all kinds of other stuff the Imperium has to deal with.

Brother Handro
16-12-2011, 00:53
@Gorbad;

Fair point, but the key is that people want to do this in the particular setting that appeals to them the most. Eg 'Ooh this is my tragic 40k chaos hero' is cool for one person whilst 'ooh this is my tragic PH hero who has to choose between loyalty to the big E or his Legion (for example) is cool for another.

Its no biggie, we PH enthusiasts aren't elitist. Much. :-p

Sinnertje
16-12-2011, 00:57
I always enjoyed reading about the slow decline of someone into chaos. Which is why I like the Heresy books.

You're talking about the Horus Heresy series of Black Library?
When I read it I thought it went like "Oh hey dudes, our primarch is ill, lets put him in some temple so that stuff we absolutely don't believe in can heal him!"
"Uuhh.. Okay!"
"Wooo chaos!"

Anyway, I don't really care much about fluff. The main thing for me is the way a model/army looks. Be it pre-heresy, heresy or post-heresy. ^^

Axeman1n
16-12-2011, 01:05
Many people who have read the novels will fall in love with the armies portrayed in them. The only problem is that 1/2 of them are now Chaos. If you are a loyalist like me, you will be drawn to playing preheresy stuff, as those World Eater/Emperor's Children are still loyal.
My personal walk with the books had lead me down the path of the Sorcerer. I have fallen in love with the Loyal Thousand Sons. That path has not lead me to build a pre-heresy list, as I have found a kernel of Loyalty in the present day (40k) thousand sons. So I started a post heresy, loyal Thousand Sons chaper. If that kernel was not there, I may started a pre-heresy army like the rest of the gang.

Cortez
16-12-2011, 01:08
Don't get why People have problems with the pre-heresy stuff.
It's just something different. It gives people to use imagination. Instead of everyone having ultramarines.
I think it looks great and hope people continue to Carry on there 30k Word.
Peace :angel:

MarcusAurelius
16-12-2011, 02:41
pre-heresy and heresy comprise the legendary age of 40k
in a way, 40k pales in comparison to 30k (with the Emperor, the primarchs, and legions of space marines)

Tolkien is sort of analogous
the third age pales in comparison to the second and first ages (you'll know what I mean if you've read the Silmarillion)

Born Again
16-12-2011, 03:44
This



and this.

The HH is really a series of stories that should never have been told. Too much of the curtain has been pulled back and a lot of the mythos has been lost as a result. Leave some intrigue and mystery in your work GW. On thing I used to love about the story of the Heresy was how it was LITERALLY passed down from one generation of gamers to the next, adding to it's mystique as more than a few stories may have been "embellished" along the way. It was an actual folk tale in GW circles with whole myths and legends surrounding what supposedly happened.

Now GW comes out with the (as so eloquently put) "Might Marine Tales of Marineing" all of this is lost.

So, in short I really do not get the appeal. Same goes for this "truescaling" malarkey. SM's are already "true scaled" It is the IG that are out of scale and too big.

Yeah, I think they've probably gone a bit far with the whole thing. I think the first three books in there series were a great idea, it gave some more detail and insight in to the whole thing, but with the amount they have now, it can kind of destroy the mythos a bit.
As for true scaling, I've noticed many of the people who make these supposedly "true scale" marines are the same ones that think marines are meant to be 8, 9, or even 10 feet tall.

solkan
16-12-2011, 04:02
I think some people have just internalized that 40k's timeline points backwards because the clock is never going to hit 41k.

MarshalFaust
16-12-2011, 04:29
I would imagine a lot of people are into the pre heresy stuff because it adds a ton of background and motivation for the armies they play now. the chaos or loyalist player now has a little more insight into what made their army who they are in 40,000

AngryAngel
16-12-2011, 05:51
I don't get why anyone needs to "Get it" really. It's just a section of the 40k timeline. If you are a big fan of the imperium, why wouldn't ya want to play at the high water mark for man kind ? At a time before the power was fractured, while the emperor still walked among his children ? I wouldn't spend tons of money to do it, but others do. I don't need to really get it, anymore then I need to get why people enjoy the armies they own.

Aluinn
16-12-2011, 08:28
Nope I don't get it either. But then I don't get Napoleonics either. I'll stick to 40K. If others want to play 30K, feel free - but here - meh.

Lol ditto on Napoleonics. Did someone go, like: "Hey, guys, let's all play wargames set in the period with the absolute silliest military dress imaginable! They wore pom-poms on their hats, and furry hats, and really tall hats! It'll be awesome!"

(Yes, I do know about landsknechts. Napoleonic soldiers' uniforms are still sillier.)

As for pre-Heresy stuff, I'm very ambivalent about it. I get why people like it, though, given the Black Library novels and the importance of the Heresy to the background. (As a side note, a lot of people keep calling Heresy-era things, which account for a lot of the most popular armies and whatnot, pre-Heresy, which is a little misleading, and they should stop doing that. If your army worships Chaos, it is not pre-Heresy!)

tu33y
16-12-2011, 08:31
hmmm, by "get it" i mean "excited by it" in the way many MANY gamers are. iv noticed at lenton there is almost a "movement" for it, like its the next big thing. i get the idea of expanding the universe, and i am on the whole positive that there are new options, a new aesthetic, etc.
but what i was trying to say is, i have noticed its not just a "new shiney thing"... its really caught on. and i wondered why. but many of you are sort of explaining it to me.

i do worry though that it is a sign that this game is getting a bit stale, which is natural towards the end of an edition i guess. so any new army, or new list or perspective rejuvenates gamers.

Simo429
16-12-2011, 09:19
Personally I think the fluff and models just look better.

The cleans lines of MK3 army fit an army better than the random bits of rubbish that they put on the 'modern' models. Are super human killing machines really going to field the need to plaster a wolf head or some other bit of iconography on their every surface?

Simo429
16-12-2011, 09:23
pre-heresy and heresy comprise the legendary age of 40k
in a way, 40k pales in comparison to 30k (with the Emperor, the primarchs, and legions of space marines)
Tolkien is sort of analogous
the third age pales in comparison to the second and first ages (you'll know what I mean if you've read the Silmarillion)

I do however agree with this, now they have opened the door I desperately want them to move the 40k story on to get to the end of times and bring back the primarchs, the big E and the massive scale

Konovalev
16-12-2011, 15:10
I don't see the allure of pre-heresy stuff either, other than OMG Space Marines. But the models and armor types add diversity so it's nice to see something different than the norm.

Leftenant Gashrog
16-12-2011, 15:59
The claim that the Horus Heresy was always intended as a mythical backstory is wrong, the Emperor was originally stated to have been mortally wounded in wars so long ago that not even he remembered them. Then there were a few throwaway lines to "The First Inter-Legionary War". Then GW decided to do a big stompy robot game, however they only had the money for a single mold, their answer: a civil war with the same mold used for both sides: The Horus Heresy.

I'm not a new convert to the Heresy era, I've always thought EPIC should have kept the Heresy as its default setting. To me the big thing about the Heresy is the massively different feel: "No quarter was asked, no quarter was given. Hatred drove us. Hatred and fear. Aye, fear. For we were the finest warriors in the universe, elite among elite, the chosen of humanity. Once we had acknowledged no foe as our equal. Now we must – for were not these men the same as ourselves? Spawned from geneseed, trained by masters, armed and equipped with the best from humanity's realm. Finally we faced a for worthy of fear, a mirror image of ourselves and all we believed in. In this nightmare, brother against false brother to the death. Is it any wonder we knew fear?" (from Codex Titanicus), which is a massive difference from playing modern loyalists who know no fear or jaded renegades who are there only for plunder and vengeance.

Commissar von Toussaint
17-12-2011, 01:12
Most people may not know Battletech, since it's all but forgotten, but that system had a moving timeline and also "historical" scenarios based on the various tech levels.

Moving 40k from its longstanding "build the best army and win" concept to "how would you do would faced with this combination of forces?" would be a good thing.

Inquisitor Kallus
17-12-2011, 01:16
because its cool and not 'main-stream', which makes it even cooler in most peoples eyes. Think 'retro'....

Denny
18-12-2011, 20:27
Now, if they wanted to expand the War in Heaven, that could be pretty cool.

Nooooooo!!!!11!!!1!!!ONE!!!!!!!1 :eek:

Sorry for the over punctuation, but I really hate this idea. The War in Heaven is cool partly because we don't know what really happened; it's all myth and allegory and that makes it more interesting.

Incidentally I feel the same way about the Heresy, though seeing old skool Worldeaters is pretty cool (why do Khorne's armies wear red? It makes it so much harder to paint blood splatters on their armour!)

Azulthar
18-12-2011, 22:09
I like the Heresy fluff, but would never field any models/rules from that time period.

It's tragic...well-intentioned heroes falling to darkness, brother against brother, etc. It also has a sense of discovery, a chance to explore a mythical part of the setting. We've been hearing about it for decades, and now we finally get to experience it "first-hand".

Easy E
19-12-2011, 16:24
Warning! The following statements contains no factual basis:

Current 40k represents 80's thinking.

The HH stuff represents more modern tastes.

de Selby
19-12-2011, 16:46
I understand the desire to play 30k. It's the beginning of the end rather than the end of the end, and everything is different enough to seem fresh and full of possibility, while still being basically the same setting. I'd much rather see people putting effort into collecting armies from particular 'historical' settings than just whatever the most powerful combination in the codex is. Some people are really into the Badab war and more power to them. If sisters got some love we'd probably see people playing age of apostasy armies.

Of course the BL books have pushed the heresy higher in people's minds. Personally I'm not really so keen on this because I do feel that having novels covering every little detail does pin down the mythology rather. But if it were up to me we'd never get any fluff from the POV of anyone but normal humans.

Axel
19-12-2011, 18:14
No interest here in 30k...

totgeboren
19-12-2011, 22:38
I have always loved the mk.V 'Heresy' armour, ever since RT days, and if I had the option I would have most of my CSM in it.
I have only bought a box of 5 from FW and kit-bashed them with normal SM/CSM stuff, but that experience have shown me that it's not all that hard to mod most marks to make em look more like the mk.V.

Also, I really like many of the HH books, especially The First Heretic, so that also makes me more inclined to buy expensive FW stuff. I also really like that (some authors at least) manage to portray the 'bad guys' as somewhat realistic, explaining their motives. 40k for me is an interesting setting because the characters are mentally semi-realistic even if the setting itself is quite outrageous. It's not high fantasy where the heroes are simply good and the bad guys are evil. Everyone has a reason for their actions which should makes sense, at least for them. I mean, even orks, from their point of view, are not 'bad guys' in any way. They act in what they think is a morally appropriate way.
The Dark Eldar are no more evil than bullfighters in todays world. Ok, I would judge people who torture others (even animals) for fun as 'evil', but I understand that they do not view themselves are 'evil', because the animal is simply not included in his sphere of moral concern. The Dark Eldar don't include anyone, atleast not other races, in their sphere of concern, which is exactly how humans have behaved for most of our history.

Ok, back on track.

I still enjoy the 40k setting more than the 30k one. The 30k one is already set, and though I greatly enjoy reading books in that setting, the 40k one allows me to create my own heroes/villains, and everything is much more extreme and dark in 40k.

I mean, before the Heresy, everyone was 'good guys' except the orks, and the rest of the aliens felt more like abused victims instead of looming threats. It's not all that interesting when the heroes are unstoppable (no, I'm not going to derail this into a lamentation of the GK fluff).

In 40k, everyone, including the heroes, loses as often as they win. It's a dynamic setting where anything goes. In 30k, a Primarch losing a battle would be really odd, and if your own marine hero was on the loosing side, his daddy would just show up and save the day.

Poseidal
20-12-2011, 08:40
I don't get it either. To me the Heresy was cooler when they all were mythical creatures.

Agree with this.

They also made the mistake of making some mythological sounding things literally true.

RED9335
20-12-2011, 09:19
For me I can honestly say the horus heresy series helped me through ptsd from iraq, I could honestly sympathize and empathize with both factions at different points, so I run a pre heresy wolves army since I played wolves before the new book. It may sound crazy but I think its a realistic portrayel of just how sh**** war is.

Easy E
20-12-2011, 13:47
Also, it's a great excuse for Marine vs. Marine. I'm surprised GW doesn't go this route more!

Utred
20-12-2011, 13:56
Also, it's a great excuse for Marine vs. Marine. I'm surprised GW doesn't go this route more!

This... with so many marines fighting marines on our table tops - why not go to the most epic time this happened in the fluff - the HH?

Is the fact the GW and the player base field so many Marines part of why we like the Heresy? The 30k fluff really does justify Marine on Marine battles and makes them epic, rather than otherwise the petty reasons marines would fight marines in 30k? Is it we want a good reason to keep our marine chapters fighting?

Chapters Unwritten
20-12-2011, 14:35
Part of me wishes that they would treat the actual 41st millennium with the same reverence they do the 31st, book-wise, but generally the Horus Heresy and the events leading to it are fascinating due to their mysticism.

Bloodknight
21-12-2011, 13:06
Most people may not know Battletech, since it's all but forgotten, but that system had a moving timeline and also "historical" scenarios based on the various tech levels.

BT is one of the best examples why a stagnating timeline can be good, though. At least it doesn't get to jump the shark then like the BT background did with and after the 3070s Word of Blake Jyhad that ruined the possibility for a sensible further progress so profoundly that they had to return the game to a dark age setting that is very unappealing.
BT is at its best during the 3rd succession war, the war of 3039 and the clan invasion till Tukayyid, with well thought out characters and story development; although it is kind of funny that the whole reason for that setting relies on a pretty lame villain (Stephan Amaris is basically a walking stereotype of an evil person) and a traitor who went to exile beyond known space with most of the Star League's military instead of fighting said lame and one-dimensional usurpating villain, but somehow is portrayed as a major hero (I'm looking at you Aleksandr Kerensky!), just to have the genetically engineered superwarrior grand-grand-grand-kids of that military return and try to destroy (I know, they called it unification) the Inner Sphere. It just stopped being as well thought out after that and they stuck way too much development in too short a time.

(It surely took them not long from "we can't repair out fusion powered tanks because we need the reactors for the mechs because we can't really build new ones, our electronics are crap and hopefully none of our JumpShips dies" over "oh crap, who are these guys that developed technology further in the last 250 years" to "pah, clans, our new mechs beat them silly"...250 years of technological regress, then they suddenly catch up on that development in less than 20 years till they are able to beat the guys who didn't fall back to a more primitve age in the R&D department and make them insignificant again (like the Nova Cats and Snow Ravens) to "religious fanatics nuke half of the factory worlds, welcome to the dark ages"? mmmmh....and I say that as somebody who never even liked the idea of the clans, but man, got they treated badly by the fluff writers. The greatest threat known to the universe, beaten senseless in less than 2 years of war.

Gertjan
22-12-2011, 20:36
A big thing in my opinion, the break away from th boredom of normal marines. Everyone has had one or mroe standard 40k marine armies in their 40k carreer (ok, so most of us anyways). Even very well converted the standard 41st millenium marine has become the most boring army around. the 30k hh stuff breaks that a bit, you get new (well, old) models, paint schemes for some legions, it just refreshes the whole marine thing a bit, and it allows you to use them in normal games as well. win win I'd say.

baphomael
24-12-2011, 02:25
this is a genuine question and HONESTLY not trolling...

why have so many people fell in love with the pre-heresy stuff? it really seems to have captured a largesection of the comunities attention, and i just dont really get it.

and its not because im a guard player, as there are lots of guard stuff i dont get either (valhallans, preatorians)

so my question is,

do YOU find your self drawn to pre-heresy minis and rules, and why? is there a logical reason or does it just push buttons in your hind-brain to make you want it on an emmotional level?

On the guard thing, what's not to get? Many people like the historical theme - valhallens are wwii in space, praetorians are zulu in space. It's a homage and, at least, the idea of recreating (R)Ork(e)'s Drift, or the charge at Stalingrad is enough of a reason :p

As for HH era stuff, its a big part of the lore. It's the reason the 40k universe came about. It's the turning point that put the galaxy where it is. So, similar to the guard example, it has that historical theme appeal.

Another reason might also be from a hobby perspective - until Fw started getting in on it HH themed armies, if going for accuracy, were a very involving and intensive project. A fully painted themed Hh army has always been a real achievement (just look at Apologists true scale efforts) - this was even more so when FW didn't produce a range of off the peg period appropriate stuff.

And, then there's the like of the collected visions book and the black library novels shedding light on a largely unexplored period of the setting

Hrogoff the Destructor
24-12-2011, 03:07
My only interest in pre heresy stuff is Thousand Sons related. Seriously, just look at those guys! They're amazing!

There's just so much character, not to mention they got that sweet Egyptian theme going on.

I want to build an army of them so bad it's not even funny.

They have the single best design of anything in the 40k universe (in my personal opinion of course).

Commissar Davis
24-12-2011, 14:55
I think its a question of taste. The HH stuff uncovers enough to open it up to gaming, while keeping just enough shrouded. It kind of like going through dark ages of medieval stuff, as we know virtually nothing, yet enough that there are battle re-enactments and historic armies based on that period, does anyone really know what happened at Battle of Agincourt, its the victors that write history. As for some of the xenos being left out, they can be one of the many other xenos that were around at that time (Nids as Laer is one example).

I only wish tat GW did more of this sort of thing, as there are huge chunks of the background that could really come to light that are quite interesting. I would like to know where Sigismund met his end, some of the battles fought during schism... there are loads of bits to cover.

Jake-Man
24-12-2011, 18:03
I got into the Boris heresy right from the start due to the alternate view it gave the now chaos legions, to read horus rising knowing what would one day happen but to love his character anyway was amazing. And as said earlier in the thread novels and art work are great inspirational for the hobby. Also let's not forget just how cool the older marks of armour look ;)

Reflex
24-12-2011, 19:09
to be honest im not much of a fan. I quite liked it when we knew very little to nothing about it. made it more fun and hazy. as long as we never find out what happened to the 2 missing legions, ill still be marginally happy about it.

Tokamak
24-12-2011, 23:16
Hmm. No. That can't be right. If Hollywood has taught me anything, its that epic only means underdeveloped plot, story and characters hidden by the excessive use of explosions. I don't think you can add any more explosions to 40K to yield 30K.

You can make the explosions explode.

simonr1978
01-01-2012, 11:21
...although it is kind of funny that the whole reason for that setting relies on a pretty lame villain (Stephan Amaris is basically a walking stereotype of an evil person) and a traitor who went to exile beyond known space with most of the Star League's military instead of fighting said lame and one-dimensional usurpating villain, but somehow is portrayed as a major hero (I'm looking at you Aleksandr Kerensky!)...

OT but, Kerensky did fight and eventually defeat Amaris. He left when it became clear that the Star League was going to further fracture rather than reform and that a massive Inner Sphere wide war was looming. I think Amaris seems one dimensional partly because very little actually got written about him, even the sections of books that deal with the Star League Civil war usually cover the whole thing in a few paragraphs.

Anyway, I'd say that the Battletech universe is both an example of how it can be done well (We had about 25 years of steadily advancing story line) and how easy it is to completely screw it all up (The Word of Blake Jihad and Dark Age nonesense).

I'd be more interested in the 40K setting personally if there was some sort of timeline advancement, it would just seem a bit better if every faction didn't essentially seem to get rebooted and retconned to some degree every time a new codex was released.

madprophet
01-01-2012, 20:47
Heresy era is full of modeling opportunities if you play guard. You can have Guard Bikers, Beastman platoons, Guard Jet-Bikes, as well as all the options a modern guard army has. Even squat units can be found in Heresy-era guard armies!

Lots of conversion goodness!

yabbadabba
01-01-2012, 20:50
I'd be more interested in the 40K setting personally if there was some sort of timeline advancement, it would just seem a bit better if every faction didn't essentially seem to get rebooted and retconned to some degree every time a new codex was released. Why not do it yourself?

Motley
01-01-2012, 23:04
The only big difference is the primarchs. Without them is just a silly game of warhammer40k with less options in general.

I always listen to people saying the same stuff since 97 .. oh i want to play a game doing the siege of the imperial palace.... well let me tell you something ...is really lame.

I did it with a couple of friends we create the rules for the primarchs and make an apocalypse game ( at that time was call just a big ********* game) and i was bored to hell....

With the new codex right now you can do alot of amazing games using the SC like sanguinor instead sanguinius or lyzander instead rogal dorn.

Your best option is stay with 40k that actually is more rich that 30k with a lot of more option, unless you like spam:shifty::shifty::shifty::shifty:

Vaktathi
02-01-2012, 00:44
Personally I'm of the opinion that in many ways the Horus Heresy mythos has become *too* explored and detailed, and many of the characters portrayed therein no longer seem quite so...legendary. It's also almost entirely Space Marine stuff, so if you're not into that there isn't much there and to be quite honest Space Marines as characters are very often quite boring.

There's a lot of cool pre-heresy stuff, but a lot of it also seems to be general cheap fanservice and removes much of the imagination/conjecture/legendary nature of the events of the Heresy era.

The retroactive assignment of Rogue Trader and 2nd Edition models/options/etc as "pre-heresy" is in some ways cool, other ways though a lot of times it's "we could have done without an explanation, really it was fine".

simonr1978
02-01-2012, 03:06
Why not do it yourself?

Because I can't?

I can advance any kind of storyline in my own internal world that I want to of course, but I can't offer any kind of official GW sanctioned advancement to the established universe that goes a single second past the current moment that WH40K is frozen at and has remained frozen at (Sort of) since about 1989. We're still in the same place, supposedly, that we were when the Realm of Chaos books were written, but so many species and so much equipment have been written into and out of existence since then, yet the time line hasn't progessed one moment.

yabbadabba
02-01-2012, 08:12
Because I can't? Why not?

I can advance any kind of storyline in my own internal world that I want to of course, but I can't offer any kind of official GW sanctioned advancement to the established universe that goes a single second past the current moment that WH40K is frozen at and has remained frozen at (Sort of) since about 1989. Why does it have to be sanctioned

We're still in the same place, supposedly, that we were when the Realm of Chaos books were written, but so many species and so much equipment have been written into and out of existence since then, yet the time line hasn't progessed one moment.See, its your game, your models.... your decision. You can let GW lead you by the nose, or you can strike out with a group of mates and do things differently.

If you only ever play pick up games at a store, or tournaments/events then you deliberately limit your choices and you are stuck with what GW do and there is nothing you can do about it.

madprophet
02-01-2012, 09:08
Well, they kinda sorta advanced into the 41st millennium with the Ciaphas Cain series which talk about Cain retiring in the early part of the new millennium with not much changing.

Life still sucks, there is still only war and you'll still probably get eaten by Tyranids, have fun!

Hellebore
02-01-2012, 09:36
I think it comes down to lots of things but the ones I see the most are newness and legend made flesh.

It's ironic that the history of the Imperium could be considered new, but in OUR timeline it is. It is a new setting, new forces. It's just new. People like new rather than rehashing the old all the time. For us the 41st millennium is old and the 31st is new and new is more exciting because you haven't become jaded by it yet. The next heresy novel isn't the 4th version of the same background, it's new background.

Then there's the fact that the heresy was a time of legends made flesh. It made everything seem bigger, more powerful. You know, manlier. :p

Immersing yourself in it is walking with giants, not standing on their shoulders. Instead of playing with the half charred remains of people who used to know these legends, instead of sitting at the feet of a senile dreadnought listening to these legends every thousand years because the rune priests woke him up, you are living them.

If GW starting releasing books, models and armies around Vandire's reign of blood during the genesis of the sororitas you'd probably see something similar. It lacks some of the mythic quality of the heresy as there aren't any demigods walking around, but being new it would engage people more than yet another space marine codex.


Personally I don't really find much of the heresy stuff that good. IMO if you can't write something properly then you shouldn't write it. If you can't create a demigod tactical genius on paper, then you shouldn't write from his perspective. Thus all appearances by primarchs in stories should be written from the perspective of a bystander. It is easier to get across a sense of awe when your surrogate experiences it and is bowled over by it, rather than trying to show awe by writing from the perspective of the subject of said awe.

GW also has a nasty habit of creating a 'myth' and doing everything but saying that it's actually true. The sense of mystery around myths only works if there is actual uncertainty. GW create pseudo uncertainty and then in a few years use that narrow view as the basis for a whole set of setting truths. This is why you get distilliation of armies over time, as the nuances are lost and core concepts reinforced to the nth degree. see the latest space wolf and blood angel codices for this sort of thing.

I can see why GW are getting in on the act, it's an easy sell as it simply reinforces marine sales. You don't need whole new armies, codicies etc for someone to collect a heresy era force. Customers will then just collect twice as many marines to make that heresy force as well.

But for the players I think it comes down to a sense of the new and the fact that you are walking alongside giants of the setting.

Imagine if you had a historical fiction game around greeks and trojans fighting, set a few hundred years after the fall of troy (from the iliad). Then they release stuff on the golden age where your forces would actually have Hector and Achilles in them. Your armies are now part of something greater than they were.

Hellebore

simonr1978
02-01-2012, 14:29
Why not?
Why does it have to be sanctioned
See, its your game, your models.... your decision. You can let GW lead you by the nose, or you can strike out with a group of mates and do things differently.

If you only ever play pick up games at a store, or tournaments/events then you deliberately limit your choices and you are stuck with what GW do and there is nothing you can do about it.

I can't because quite simply I cannot provide any form of official advancement to the storyline, however well or badly written my own efforts are and however many mates I rope into the process it will never be official. It needs to be official in this context because that's what I was referring to, GW's unwillingness to move its own static setting forward.

It's not about needing GW to lead me by the nose to anything, but they provide the broad framework and story in which their universe functions and I at least would just find it a bit more satisfying if new races and equipment were discovered or created or even wiped out in accordance with some sort of timeline advancement rather than just flashing into existence and having suddenly existed for hundreds or thousands of years or in a few cases suddenly ceasing to be or have ever been.

I know I can do all this myself for my own interpretation of the GW universes, that's not what I'm talking about, I know it's my models/games/etc but I find the whole experience a bit more immersive if I operate as far as reasonably practical within the established background.

However this is all going away from the original topic.

yabbadabba
02-01-2012, 16:53
I can't because quite simply I cannot provide any form of official advancement to the storyline, however well or badly written my own efforts are and however many mates I rope into the process it will never be official. It needs to be official in this context because that's what I was referring to, GW's unwillingness to move its own static setting forward.Again, I don't see why it needs to be official

~snip~ There might be a genuine issue that this is not the product for you. Why? Well it goes like this
a) GW doesn't need to move the timeline on because they see their core, and majority, customer base as not being in the hobby long enough to need an advancement
b) most advancement GW has done has ended up with a degree of criticism that outweighs criticism for a static status quo
c) GW believes that its vasty smaller part of the customer base which represents long term customers are either i) into tournaments and fluff is not a priority or ii) more than likely to strike off on their own anyway, regardless of what GW does; and
d) GW sees itself as a model company for wargaming, making it more business right to try and get money for old rope; the better longevity of some model ranges, the greater the chance of profit per unit sale, especially in plastics. Advancing the timeline can jeopardise this. In this they will take inspiration from current wargaming, where the only need to change models are quality, changes in historical research or improvements in production.

If GW doesn't see it as a business need to advance the timeline in any consideration, they won't. They have messed around with little things but as a broad picture it is highly unlikely they will attempt this without some funds in the bank and considerable investment and market research. There is a genuine fear of killing the goose that lays the golden eggs - even if they are more like silver at the moment.

Bringing it into topic, I have been playing pre-HH and HH since Adeptus Titanicus was released in '88, and carried on as a staff member in 40K and Epic even when discussing HH gaming was heresy within the business.

trigger
02-01-2012, 17:04
Personaly I love the fluff with the HH , all the myth all the bias fact in the novels. Would I want to play WH30k
God no , not at gw prices.
Do I use the forge world bits and bobs
Yes , I've been collecting wolves since 1996. The FW stuff adds some depth to the collection , makes squads look older and my at army look cool


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