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Chaostheory
16-12-2011, 02:50
Well having played 5-6 test games recently I have cobbled togeather a stronger list. Latest list looks like this; (Going for an 'all comers'/tournament' style list.)

[H] Sorceror – MoT, GEoT, Enchanted Shield, Spell Familiar, Lvl 2, Disk, Third Eye of Tzeentch. [230]
[H] Exalted – BSB, MoT, Disk, 4+ Ward Talisman, Halberd, Shield, Stream of Corruption, [239]

[C] 50 Marauders – MoK, Standard, Musician, Greatweapons [292]
[C] 21 Warriors – MoK, Shield, Hlaberd, Standard, Musician, +1 Move or Fire Banner[420]
[S] 50 Marauders – MoK, Standard, Musician, Greatweapons [292]
[S] 7 Chaos Knights – MoN, standard, Musician, Banner of Rage [375]
[S] Chariot [120]
[S] Chariot [120]
[R] Hellcannon [205]
[R] Hellcannon [205]

There are two things I am still on the fence about:
1. The hellcannons - They have been less than spectacular so far. For 410p I am hoping they do better. I do think they have the potential to fill a role in the list that I cannot fill elsewhere but they just seem to be hit or miss at the moment.
2. The second unit of 50 Marauders. Firstly I dont know If I have it in me to paint all that many more maruaders and secondly It seems that because of their slow movement and the cumbersome nature of a horde unit they are not a significant threat against small elite armies that play a refused flank or otherwise limit the amount of models I can get into combat. I'm going to keep playtesting them BUT I will test the following;

+ 8 trolls [360]
- 50 marauders [292]
- 3 Chaos Warriors [51]
- Stream of Corruption [20]

The only problem with this is that If my general dies I have alot of points tied up in a stupid group. And my BSB cannot join them. Everyone tends to ignore my general(lvl 2 sorceror) initially as he doesnt seem to be too big of a threat. He tends to suprise them tho but by then its too late and im banging on the doors with my troops.

Thoughts?

N


-----Original List and thoughts for reference.

I have just got back into the game. I mainly played in 6th Edition and the game has gone through significant changes from then. I would like to attend tournaments but prefer the challenge of fighting from an underdog postion rather than with a min/max list. Any help fine tuning this would be appreciated. This is my first take on 8th edition so pardon possible newbishness.

PRINCIPLES I WANT TO KEEP:
1.Character Light – IMHO WoC doesn’t need 'hammer' characters. So outside of a BSB I don’t really want any fighty characters.
2.Magic Light – With the random number of powerdice generated and diminishing returns for each other mage involved I just want one caster and the best ‘bang for buck’ that I can get per point cost rather than going overboard for magic supremacy.


[H]Sorceror – MoT, GEoT, Enchanted Shield, Warrior familiar, Lvl 2, Disk, Third Eye of Tzeentch. [235]
[H]Exalted – BSB, MoN, Dragonhelm, Biting Blade, Dawnstone, Shield, Palanquin, Stream of Corruption. [265]
[C]34 Marauders – MoN, Full Command, Greatweapons [220]
[C]50 Marauders – MoK, Standard, Musician, Greatweapons [292]
[C] 18 Warriors – MoT, Shield, Standard, Musician, Razor Banner [371]
[C] 5 Hounds [30]
[C] 5 Hounds [30]
[S] 6 Trolls [270]
[S] 7 Chaos Knights – MoN, standard, Musician, Banner of Rage [375]
[R] Hellcannon [205]
[R] Hellcannon [205]

Couple of notes regarding Character layouts:

SORCEROR
Yes I didn’t go with the level 4 option and the warrior familiar is an odd option. Playing some games might wisen me up BUT this is my logic. Most min/max lists I have seen around the 2500p mark tend to have a level 4 wizard. I think it is reasonable to take third eye of Tzeentch and cut some corners and still have potentially 4 spells to cast. Most of the other lores seem to be a lot stronger than the chaos lores particularly tzeentch. So while I am -2 behind a level 4 tzeentch lord I can still cast a fair amount of spells a round since the limiting factor is the random dice. Whilst I would have a different setup for tzeentch lord (fitting in conjoined homonculous and blood of tzeentch++) I am looking forward to trying this approach.
Warrior Familiar fills up my last 20p of magical allowance. I can see how a very strong casting list will shut down my ‘weak’ magic phase with relative ease. If this is the case then I have a strong secondary use for him. Arrow bait, and warmachine/mage hunting. +1 for charging, 1 auto str 5 hit (likely killing a crewman) 2 attacks from the sorc himself and 1 more from the disk should deal with most crews in gunline armies and might give me some nice options for mage hunting.

2.BSB + Nurgle marauders
It seems difficult to find a nice BSB build that benefits from Look out sir. I would have preferred a khorne one on jugger with HoME and Dawnstone + halberd but I am worried he would just get nailed far too easily. The nurgle one is something of a compromise and I am not entirely sure of my choice just yet. 1+ rerollable save, palanquin attacks and 4 str 5 -3 save attacks filling up 4 marauder spots in narrow deep unit is solid. The nurgle marauders were actually chosen because I can’t stand putting a character in a unit with different marks. I figure since I’m not going tzeentch with 5+/5++ saves I may as well try and get kills instead hence the greatweapons. This unit and character I am still unsure of as they arnt ‘the best’ at what they do and it feels like I am compromising quite a bit but I havnt figured out a strong alternative.

TACTICS
Fairly Obvious. Charge and crush hoping less points spent in characters means my troops will have the upper hand in the melee mix up. If only hellcannons could move and fire like the ogre big guns I would feel more comfortable with their inclusion as a big thing I am worried about is flanking support for the line. Its quite a long line and its quality for the most part So will just have to adjust on the fly. I figure Knights on one end and 2 redirecting hound units on the other will do in a pinch.

Again thankyou for any input and if there are any obvious oversights I would welcome any suggestions.
Cheers.

Chaostheory
19-12-2011, 06:04
Played 3 games today first game I started with the above list and changed a few things after each one.

1. Vs Very magic heavy dark elves - win

Was definately outgunned in the magic phase. He had supreme with sacrificial unit parked in a tower + 2 lesser sorcs in 20 man rxbow units. Twin hydras and 14 man units of blackguard(2) and executioners w/ BSB.

1. Level 2 with third eye is sufficient I believe. Let's me stop the real big one per phase and I can shrug off the rest.
2. BSB needs a ward save. In fact I disliked the BSB and his units performance overall. They ground down the executioners...but I feel they didn't play enough role to warrant the cost.
3. Army has a very wide footprint. I think I need more killing power in a narrower frontage.
4. My horde marauders despite doing nothing(over all 3 games lol)earnt their points every time even though they never actually won a fight. For 292p the psychological impact on the opponent is huge. I imagine there is a tendency to overreact to them. That and theres more gratification killing droves of them as opposed to 1-3 of my harder troops. It seems to me its win/win with these guys -either they take far more firepower than they are worth OR they get left alone and then smash face when they get there. Definately to stay.
6. Frenzy Nurgle knights still stomp face.

Game 2. VsOgres (balanced) - draw

Only thing I changed was to swap the exalters gear for a 4+ ward.

1. Trolls +purple sun and great maw=domination
2. Great maw with large template + horde = domination. I lost 29 of my 50 in one shot lol. I repaid the favor by using it against his ironguts the next turn and nabbed 6 of them.
3. The lvl 2 performs much better against a single lvl 4 without oodles of extra dice.
4. I'm not sure if I like the Tzeentch warriors... I'm thinking khorne + halberds might be better
5. There seems to be so much terrain these days AND with crazy rules. I actually really enjoyed this aspect adding another layer to tactics.
6. Not sure about the twin hellcannons. Thus far very underwhelming.

Game 3 - Ogres - win

Changed the army a fair bit to try another set up.

ADDED
-Sorceror Lord - MoT, Chaos steed, Third eye of Tz, conjoined homunculus, demonsword, ench sh, talisman of prot, fotg= [459]*
- BSB[244]moT, Disk, BSB, talis of preservation, potion of foolhardiness, Halberd, Shield, stream of corruption [244]
- warshrine - MoT
- 11 knights - Full command, blasted standard, MoT [550]
LOST
- Nurgle marauders
- Trolls
- 2 hellcannons.

1. Despite not liking characters all that much I do really enjoy this battlemage setup. Lose out on blood of Tzeentch and a decent ward save but really enjoy what this guy can dish out in melee as well being a near max caster. Alot of fun.
2. Ogres kick ass now. Managed a win but they got alot more competitive.
3. The knights + sorc lord were awesome busting skulls all over the place. +1 str from the warshrine was very nice also.
4. List seemed to work better narrowing the frontage down yet maintaining the hitting power.
5. Love the BSB setup now. Will definately keep it like this for a bit.


If anyone has suggestions/ insight I'd be happy to hear them.

Cheers

zielonkak
19-12-2011, 16:41
warrior of chaos are great. congrats on beating down two armies that could cause trouble for them...i would consider adding atleast one hell cannon...i wasnt sold on it for the longest time, but in the long run, it can make and break games. i really like the warshrine as well but only if i run some chosen. im glad to see the knights work for you, they are one of my favorite units in the game. i would be carefull running so many points with them against pretty much anyother armies because they will take losses. but congrats on the games and good luck with further games.

Chaostheory
20-12-2011, 19:02
warrior of chaos are great. congrats on beating down two armies that could cause trouble for them...i would consider adding atleast one hell cannon...i wasnt sold on it for the longest time, but in the long run, it can make and break games. i really like the warshrine as well but only if i run some chosen. im glad to see the knights work for you, they are one of my favorite units in the game. i would be carefull running so many points with them against pretty much anyother armies because they will take losses. but congrats on the games and good luck with further games.

Hey thanks for the reply - much appreciated.

Yeah the big knight unit was just to try for a game - they did suprisingly well.... but I was uncomfortable with the small amounts of troops I had on the board. Have updated the original post with what im running at the moment - working towards an 'all comers' style of play.

Again thanks.

michaells
21-12-2011, 01:42
i also learnt hellcannon vs he archers are a win made my chums unit of 25 flee off the board on turn one

Warrior of Chaos
21-12-2011, 02:15
You seem to have a pretty good concept of what kind of army you want to play. I've found that if you drop some marauders and take MoK Ogres w/ extra HW and Chaos Armor they'll do pretty well against average troops. Stomps come in handy as well + Fear. Trolls work wonderfully too.

I typically don't take such huge blocks a marauders. My largest block is only 32. Don't know what environment you play in, I don't do tourney's, but I find such big blocks cumbersome and easily destroyed by my opponents given so many spells of save or die.

Congrats on your wins! Good luck for future games.

Morax
21-12-2011, 19:32
If you are going to invest 410 points in hellcannons you should invest 70 more to make them effective. The Doom Totem on the BSB (with an appropriately sized standard) makes them so much better it is laughable. -2 leadership auto panic from atleast 1 wound can be game changing. Give the BSB a shield and mark of Tzeentch for a 3+/5++ in combat and he has a bit of surviveablity. Leave him on foot and stick him with marauders and you want him to be slow to give the cannons more time to work. You will see a marked improvement in just about all aspects of your army with this switch as your combat blocks will preform better when they have to worry about half as many enemy units.

avatarofportent
22-12-2011, 05:59
I nearer leave home without twomhellcannons are you kidding me run them together as a pair they kick ass

Dreadlordpaul
22-12-2011, 08:55
Twin hell cannons are evil I wish I had the money to afford 2 of them

Chaostheory
23-12-2011, 13:58
You seem to have a pretty good concept of what kind of army you want to play. I've found that if you drop some marauders and take MoK Ogres w/ extra HW and Chaos Armor they'll do pretty well against average troops. Stomps come in handy as well + Fear. Trolls work wonderfully too.

I typically don't take such huge blocks a marauders. My largest block is only 32. Don't know what environment you play in, I don't do tourney's, but I find such big blocks cumbersome and easily destroyed by my opponents given so many spells of save or die.

Congrats on your wins! Good luck for future games.

Hey thanks for the reply.

For now it's basically just 3 of us that have gotten back into it- we all tend to like to really tinker with lists getting them powered down to the last point. Once we figure out what is the most effective from a power gaming perspective we tend to drop it back a gear and play with the models we like and play to win with a less than 'perfect' list. Have no problem ignoring conventional wisdom also. And until they improve the chaos pores il likely be rolling without a level 4. I played three more games recently and the second group of marauders didn't seem to do all that much - seemed diminishing returns kicked in. One big unit Seems to work better for me which is great as getting the second 50 converted and painted is something I am not looking forward too. Hopefully when the new book comes out later this year they will make other troop types more appealing. Particularly forsaken- love the idea of them just poorly implemented. If they added vanguard and another lil special rule for them -maybe allowing supportive attacks like monstrous infantry they would be more interesting to run and will take that second marauder blocks place. For now tho trolls for sure.

Thanks for the feedback!


i also learnt hellcannon vs he archers are a win made my chums unit of 25 flee off the board on turn one


If you are going to invest 410 points in hellcannons you should invest 70 more to make them effective. The Doom Totem on the BSB (with an appropriately sized standard) makes them so much better it is laughable. -2 leadership auto panic from atleast 1 wound can be game changing. Give the BSB a shield and mark of Tzeentch for a 3+/5++ in combat and he has a bit of surviveablity. Leave him on foot and stick him with marauders and you want him to be slow to give the cannons more time to work. You will see a marked improvement in just about all aspects of your army with this switch as your combat blocks will preform better when they have to worry about half as many enemy units.

I do like this idea very much. How do u find this works with the general and BSB often centering the line really bumping up the leadership of most armies? I am loathe to give up my bsb's set up at the moment - he just seems to do so much more with an agressive set up. I will definately trial it for a few games.


I nearer leave home without twomhellcannons are you kidding me run them together as a pair they kick ass

I just got back into the game so still finding out good setups. Honestly the first 3 games left me underwhelmed... But they redeemed themselves of late. I also really enjoy having something to do in the shooting phase.


Twin hell cannons are evil I wish I had the money to afford 2 of them

I was still on the fence with them after the first few games but the more I play with them the more I like them. They absolutely devastated an unlucky dwarven semi-gunline and did well from a pure killing standpoint. So they stay in for the time being.

Thanks guys for the comments!

CT

Dreadlordpaul
23-12-2011, 13:59
Your welcome :) I just like the thought of 2 of them hitting the same unit and making it a -2 leadership panic test

Chaostheory
23-12-2011, 14:25
If you are going to invest 410 points in hellcannons you should invest 70 more to make them effective. The Doom Totem on the BSB (with an appropriately sized standard) makes them so much better it is laughable. -2 leadership auto panic from atleast 1 wound can be game changing. Give the BSB a shield and mark of Tzeentch for a 3+/5++ in combat and he has a bit of surviveablity. Leave him on foot and stick him with marauders and you want him to be slow to give the cannons more time to work. You will see a marked improvement in just about all aspects of your army with this switch as your combat blocks will preform better when they have to worry about half as many enemy units.

Further to this I will trial the following list to see how it goes with the doombanner.

[H] BSB- MoT- shield, Doombanner *[225]
[H]sorceror - MoT, disk, third eye, preservation, ench sh, lvl 2, [235]*

50 marauders mok,gw,STD mus [292]
19 warriors, mot,sh,full com razor banner [399] <-BSB*
18 warriors, mok, sh, Halberd,*+1 move, STD mus [369]

6 knights - mon, std, mus, banner of rage[330]
2 chariots/6 trolls (razor for fire)

Hellcannon [205]
Hellcannon [205]

BSB with the Tzeentch anvil warriors. Can't abide putting different marked characters and units together. Old school I guess.

Morax
23-12-2011, 15:56
New list looks spot on. You will have to let us know how it goes. As to your question about gererals and BSB's anchoring the line, well that does make a difference. most armies get to leadership 9 and call it quits. So with your -2 that a leadership 7 check with a reroll. If you happen to roll for pandemonium then it gets easier but hey I like the odds at leadership 7. If you can panic the BSB's or general's unit first you can further increase your odds. Even if you don't break them with the cannons you will soften them up for the warriors/knights/trolls/marauders to handel easier.

Chaostheory
23-12-2011, 16:27
Definately will keep u posted as to how the new list works. Seems to me it will come down to several things.

How powerful the on avg 7+ rerollable panic is
Vs
A more aggressive BSB. The prior setup was actually very strong. Proved of great use taking out small elites/cav/warmahines etc.

Again thanks for the tip looking forward to trialling it out!

CT

Edit: pandemonium does look very strong. Similarly I use 3rd eye alot and given many armies use death magic I might be able to leech a doom and darkness for extra hurting. Could be interesting.

avatarofportent
23-12-2011, 17:41
Wait if both hellcannons shoot at the same unit they're -1 panic check's stack with each other at the end of the phase or are they stacking with the doom banner?

Dreadlordpaul
23-12-2011, 18:34
Wait if both hellcannons shoot at the same unit they're -1 panic check's stack with each other at the end of the phase or are they stacking with the doom banner?

They stack with each other then you add the bonus for the doom totem