PDA

View Full Version : Are there dead characters?



Forsworn
17-12-2011, 04:26
I'm curious. It sort of defeats the purpose of an epic character, if you know he got killed.

E.g. Eltharion The Grim gets killed by Malekith in a Dark Elf story. Valten is supposed to have been slaughtered by Archaon. Nobody knows what's going on with Alith Anar.

I'm sure there are others to which this applies.

Rosstifer
17-12-2011, 04:36
Vlad von Carstein. Isabella von Carstein. Konrad von Carstein. Possibly Mannfred von Carstein. Vampires don't have much of a life expectancy in Warhammer, as far as monstrous, god like immortal creatures go.

Gooner
17-12-2011, 04:54
i thought valten got killed by deathmaster snitch

decker_cky
17-12-2011, 05:18
Eltharion isn't dead. He got defeated, had his eyes burned out, then he escaped, became the greatest swordmaster ever and a jedi.

Gorthor is dead.

Gorbad Ironclaw
17-12-2011, 05:21
i thought valten got killed by deathmaster snitch

Probably. Although we don't quite know for sure. We do know he wasn't killed be Archaon though. Most of the OnG characters are historical characters as well. The Brets used to have several as well (don't know who they have now). In fact I'd guess that if you sit down and look through the books almost everybody have historical characters. Don't really see that as a problem, usually it's about giving people a great hero from X army/race/nation. That they don't happen to be around in the present timeline doesn't make them any less heroic.

zoggin-eck
17-12-2011, 05:37
Plenty of "dead" orc and goblin characters. I think you'll find them in most books.


I'm curious. It sort of defeats the purpose of an epic character, if you know he got killed.


Nah, don't agree at all. For me, it makes me like the character even more. It gives them a complete story, and I'm just as happy to fill in the blanks as I'd be "completing" it myself.

Forsworn
17-12-2011, 05:39
Eltharion isn't dead. He got defeated, had his eyes burned out, then he escaped, became the greatest swordmaster ever and a jedi.

Gorthor is dead.
Eh?? O.o
When did THAT happen? Also, anyone notice that Dark Elves make HORRIBLE jailors?


Anyway, I don't mean that it defeats the purpose. I suppose that was a poor choice of words. I just like the heroes who have yet to make their mark (or are in the process of making that mark) more than the ones whose legend is complete. That's why i love it when, say, my Blademaster kills a Chaos Lord in a challenge, or when (in 40k) my random Grey Knight kills a Carnifex (without using his force weapon).

Valnir
17-12-2011, 07:30
I`m pretty sure Kouran got killed, although I can`t remember where I heard it

MOMUS
17-12-2011, 08:00
Lord kroak is the oldest dead character.

I agree with forsworn, i find it more fun to make my own narrative than have one prescribed to me.

Geep
17-12-2011, 08:08
Gorbad, Azhag and Grom are all 'dead' O&G characters, although in the latest book Gorbad and Grom were 'defeated and haven't been seen since'.

All of the Khemrian special characters are dead... (blame MOMUS for starting it :P )

Urgat
17-12-2011, 08:14
Gorbad, Azhag and Grom are all 'dead' O&G characters, although in the latest book Gorbad and Grom were 'defeated and haven't been seen since'.

Gorbad and Grom's stories have never changed, they've always walked off at the end of their waaaghs. Difference is, Gorbad happened hundreds of years before the current timeline and was wounded badly (so he's dead), Grom didn't get a scratch and that was only a few dozen years before the current time (so nothing proves he's dead).

Liber
17-12-2011, 08:27
Possibly Mannfred von Carstein.


Nope. Happily i can confirm he is very alive, and doing quite well.

RealMikeBob
17-12-2011, 08:30
Eh?? O.o
When did THAT happen? Also, anyone notice that Dark Elves make HORRIBLE jailors?

Few years ago now. Had a fairly awesome mini for him. Although I recall he didn't escape, but was sent back by Malekith as some sort of warning or such like;

"Here's what I did to one of your greatest champions, now stay off my lawn"

Urgat
17-12-2011, 08:33
Nope. Happily i can confirm he is very alive, and doing quite well.

Well no, he's not alive, he's undead :p

Rosstifer
17-12-2011, 09:56
Nope. Happily i can confirm he is very alive, and doing quite well.

Huh. I thought the Vampire book just heavily implied he hadn't died, without actually saying it.

woodster17
17-12-2011, 10:44
Huh. I thought the Vampire book just heavily implied he hadn't died, without actually saying it.

Well he returned in the Storm of Chaos fluff didn't he? Very much UNdead.

BigbyWolf
17-12-2011, 11:12
Few years ago now. Had a fairly awesome mini for him. Although I recall he didn't escape, but was sent back by Malekith as some sort of warning or such like;

"Here's what I did to one of your greatest champions, now stay off my lawn"

Yes, but that was cleverly ret-conned when GW realised that blind-ninja-jedi-swordmasters were a very silly idea, and went back to the original, and far, far better story.

yabbadabba
17-12-2011, 13:10
I'm curious. It sort of defeats the purpose of an epic character, if you know he got killed. Considering you are playing a game which requires the suspension of disbelief, why is this an issue?

BorderKing
17-12-2011, 14:26
Marius Leitdorf is a dead character, as is Tzar Boris the bear king .

snottlebocket
17-12-2011, 14:47
Quite a lot of the chaos special characters fluff has been historical accounts. Their lifestyle generally warrants a violent death sooner or later.

Aekold Helbrass is either dead or mute considering his tongue is a magic item these days.

Scylla Anfinngrim supposedly died during the battle for the gates of Kislev. As did quite a lot of other big names for the older chaos fluff. Some of which later came back like Valnir who was resurrected as an undead reaper of souls for Nurgle.

Most of the captains from dread fleet are dead.

Scalebug
17-12-2011, 16:12
Yes, but that was cleverly ret-conned when GW realised that blind-ninja-jedi-swordmasters were a very silly idea, and went back to the original, and far, far better story.


And again we see the warseer misconception of what "ret-con" means... nothing personal against you, BigByWolf, it's endemic... :p

The whole capture and blinding happens "tomorrow", as the clock snapped back to just before the Storm of Chaos breaks out (and froze there) in the army books time lines.

And wasn't Grom's invasion at least a century before this "frozen present" (which is really also during the time Eltharion as presented in the armybook is "set" so to speak)?

Urgat
17-12-2011, 16:18
Grom's Waaagh ended 90 years before the "present". It's unlikely he's still around, but unlike Gorbad, there's a small possibility.

snottlebocket
17-12-2011, 16:20
And again we see the warseer misconception of what "ret-con" means... nothing personal against you, BigByWolf, it's endemic... :p

The whole capture and blinding happens "tomorrow", as the clock snapped back to just before the Storm of Chaos breaks out (and froze there) in the army books time lines.

And wasn't Grom's invasion at least a century before this "frozen present" (which is really also during the time Eltharion as presented in the armybook is "set" so to speak)?

And the main reason the clock snapped back to before the storm of chaos is because GW didn't like how that whole deal turned out.

The writing was absolutely terrible. The player outcome was the opposite of what they wanted. The whole thing was a disaster. Sure technically they turned the clock back but the main reason they did that is because they want to retcon and forget the entire tragically stupid misadventure.

Scalebug
17-12-2011, 16:33
And the main reason the clock snapped back to before the storm of chaos is because GW didn't like how that whole deal turned out.

The writing was absolutely terrible. The player outcome was the opposite of what they wanted. The whole thing was a disaster. Sure technically they turned the clock back but the main reason they did that is because they want to retcon and forget the entire tragically stupid misadventure.

Not arguing with that, but again, don't use "retcon" like it means "change"... :p

Stuff can be changed trough ret-cons, but ret-con in itself doesn't mean "change" as a lot of people use it here...

Harwammer
17-12-2011, 16:41
Aekold Helbrass is either dead or mute considering his tongue is a magic item these days.

Considering his capacity to regenerate and the proliferation of Black Tongues that can be seen this chap may still be walking around with a fully healed tongue.

snottlebocket
17-12-2011, 16:55
Considering his capacity to regenerate and the proliferation of Black Tongues that can be seen this chap may still be walking around with a fully healed tongue.

Ah yes, the old someone captured Aekold and is now running a black tongue factory joke. :D

eron12
17-12-2011, 18:17
I'm curious. It sort of defeats the purpose of an epic character, if you know he got killed.


Many of the SCs in warhammer are historical figures, and have such lived out their lives or died in battle in the distant past. Is the Duke of Wellington less epic because he died? Or Frederick Barbarossa? or (instert epic dead historical figure of your choice).

And to add some more to the list. The HE shadow king may or may not be dead (hopefully is dead). And the Lizardman Prophet of Sotek probably is dead.

Anarnaxe
17-12-2011, 19:07
Eltharion isn't dead. He got defeated, had his eyes burned out, then he escaped, became the greatest swordmaster ever.

Don't forget that he also wounded Malekith and freaked the hell out of the Witch King for the first time in his very long life.

(Probably reason enough for the snap back to the Eltharion the Grim days)

snottlebocket
17-12-2011, 20:18
Or Frederick Barbarossa?

The man drowned because he got impatient waiting for his turn to cross a bridge and decided to have his horse swim across the river while wearing full plate armor.

I'd say his particular death reduced his legend quite a bit.

Rosstifer
17-12-2011, 22:49
Well he returned in the Storm of Chaos fluff didn't he? Very much UNdead.

Storm of Chaos isn't canon though. Officially, his status is unknown.

Scalebug
17-12-2011, 23:00
Storm of Chaos isn't canon though. Officially, his status is unknown.

Well, even with Storm of Chaos not having happened yet/never happened (your choice), it's not like Mannfred came back during it, he was resurrected about 20 years before and spent the time since building his armies... (Gotrek and Felix story, taking place around 2500 or so, current year being 2520-ish)

Forsworn
18-12-2011, 04:03
The Von Carstein books have him killed by the last vampire turned by Vlad, the grandmaster of the white wolves. Said vampire then buries himself alive with Vlad's ring, to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands. :P

Black LIbrary calls him dead, but then again, when has GW cared a rats' flying **** about that? :)

ArtificerArmour
18-12-2011, 10:04
Morghur has been killed quite a few times, but keeps coming back to pester wood elves.

Lars Porsenna
19-12-2011, 02:19
The man drowned because he got impatient waiting for his turn to cross a bridge and decided to have his horse swim across the river while wearing full plate armor.


Plate armor was still over 100 years to be realized at the time of his death. I agree with your point, but just saying...

Damon.

Geep
19-12-2011, 05:58
Morghur has been killed quite a few times, but keeps coming back to pester wood elves.

Orion, and probably to a lesser extent Ariel, have died many times. But every year there's a new elf who decides to strap antlers onto his head, play havoc for a year, then host a large barbeque.

loveless
19-12-2011, 19:35
The Von Carstein books have him killed by the last vampire turned by Vlad, the grandmaster of the white wolves. Said vampire then buries himself alive with Vlad's ring, to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands. :P

Black LIbrary calls him dead, but then again, when has GW cared a rats' flying **** about that? :)

Hmm...are the Von Carstein books set before or after the Gotrek and Felix Misadventures? Mannfred showed up in one of those...bested by a pair of silver candlesticks or some nonsense.


Orion, and probably to a lesser extent Ariel, have died many times. But every year there's a new elf who decides to strap antlers onto his head, play havoc for a year, then host a large barbeque.

Ah yes, the Wood Elf method of guaranteeing there are no re-election campaigns sapping the federal coffers - imposing a very strick 1-term limit on their Orions :p

eron12
20-12-2011, 17:01
The man drowned because he got impatient waiting for his turn to cross a bridge and decided to have his horse swim across the river while wearing full plate armor.

I'd say his particular death reduced his legend quite a bit.


Plate armor was still over 100 years to be realized at the time of his death. I agree with your point, but just saying...

Damon.

I tend to agree, though I understood he drowned while bathing and drinking, not riding his horse across a river. Regardless, Barbarossa was the first non-English military leader of note that poped into my mind. His manner of death may have reduced his legend, but the fact that he died, should not.

blake
20-12-2011, 20:26
I am going to have to say GW realized that the blind super Jedi version of eltharion was dumb because that have basically rewritten it now to where it never happened. In the new book Sons of Ellyrion, Eltharion duels Malakith and at the end of the duel Belannaer saves his butt and is promptly consumed in black dragon stuff snuffing him out. So they just killed the old ben kanobi.

Now you can argue these books arnt canon but it's a lot more recent and it fits into what is going on right now, and hey GW can do whatever they like I guess.

Tho now that I think about it due to his high metachlorin count I guess later the ghost of Belannaer can teach him the ways of the force