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Forsworn
17-12-2011, 05:57
I'm starting Eldar (going to them from Grey Knights), and am wondering what are the best troops choice for Eldar. Right now I've got a unit of Avengers (led by an Exarch with a Power Sword and Shimmershield. My other unit is Striking Scorpions (who I'm hoping to expand to 10), and they're led by a Farseer.

Which is best: Dire Avengers, Rangers (pathfinders), or Guardians?
Every other unit seems to have its niche (Scorpions vs hordes, Banshees vs MEq's, Reapers for fire support), but amongst the troops it's a bit harder to figure out which one works best.
Can I get opinions on each one?
thanks!

darthpoke
17-12-2011, 06:06
Dire Avengers for me. They are decent with BladeStorm and the 4+ save makes them last longer than Guardians vs MEQ lists. Don't get them into close combat though. They really are rubbish in hand to hand.

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RandomThoughts
17-12-2011, 08:24
The old woe of the eldar players: 5 troop choices to choose from, and all equally awkward. Essentially, the nice way to look at it is this: this is one of the precious choices in the game that are not a no-brainer. Because all choices are flawed you pick the flaw you personally can live with best.

I'll start with Rangers/Pathfinders. Essentially a 95/120 point squad you drop on an objective as far away from the enemy and hope he never gets within charge/flamer range. 2+ cover is really king in the current edition, unless your enemy brings cover-ignoring artillery (e.g. Whirlwinds) or some fast-moving/deep striking assault units / flamer units. Kelanen also keeps telling me they work quite well against Monstrous Creatures and non-shield Terminators, and that they actually have a better damage output per points than basic Tactical Marines.

Defender Guardians. Cheap as dirt and pretty similar to Rangers/Pathfinders in my opinion. Can do well camping on home objectives, but have horribly ranged firepower (which idiot ever decided to give 12" guns to a long range fire support unit...:rolleyes:). By the moment an enemy is in range to shoot him with the catapults, it's often to late because you won't wipe him out in just one shooting phase, and after that it's charge and the Guardians will usually be wiped out. Still, if you intend to never let your opponent near your objectives, then they can do okay, I think.

Storm Guardians. Equipped with twin flamers and a Destructor riding around in a Serpent, they cost about as much as Dire Avengers and will do an equal amount of damage with their shooting. The fact that the majority of their damage comes from flamers will make them superior against certain enemies, but the trade of is that they can't fire at regular infantry from beyond their charge range. (Another option for Storm Guardians are twin Fusionguns with or without a Spear Warlock, if you're playing in an AV13+ heavy environment, or so I heard.)

Dire Avengers. The one troop choice I personally just can't get behind. I though that would change now that I painted up a squad that could easily be the visual centerpiece of my army. Other people keep telling me about their volume of fire and their ability to stop assaults and tarpit enemy assault units, but I just don't see it. Then there's the "serpent of fury": Jump out of Serpent, Bladestorm from 18" away, reembark the following turn, rinse, repeat. I don't know, I personally just can't get behind them.

DAVU tanks. DAVU stands for "Dire Avengers as Vehicle Upgrades", and essentially you buy a falcon or a serpent to use as a tank, and you pay 60 points extra to make them scoring (by putting the cheapest troops choice available in the back).

Jetbikes. My personal flaw of choice. Not competitive in any fighting role, can't shoot, can't fight, but can hide in reserve for a few turns, than sneak onto the board behind your main battle line, hide behind terrain for as long as needed and grab deserted objectives in turn 5. Opinions here are split. Some people feel it's such a nasty way to play they have to apologize for using them, others keep telling me it doesn't work and I should definitely get more troops, despite the fact that it's working for me.

Finally, there are the Wraithguard, which again are a controversial choice. The pure fact that they are a 400+ footslogging units with 12" guns that are rather unimpressive in CC should give you pause for thought, but it has been claimed that they can work really well IF you build the rest of your army around them. Personally I used them twice since I got the necessary models together, and they worked quite well replacing other units as the "rock" in my "water flowing around rock" general strategy.

My final piece of advice, however, is this: All our troops are flawed, and the less you can take and get away with, the more punch you'll be able to pack into your army. Irisado will probably disagree with me on that account, claiming our troops are not that bad, but I believe they are, so do a lot of the more competitive players I know here on the forum, and I personally have been winning a lot of my games with no more troops than 2-3 units of min-sized jetbikes.

Hope any of that helps.

Aliarzathanil
17-12-2011, 08:42
^That's a pretty good summary. I've had the best luck running a mix of four troop choices; if you mix them a bit you can cover their flaws.

Hendarion
17-12-2011, 08:48
Going from Grey Knights to Eldar... you really enjoy headaches, ah? :D

cynic
17-12-2011, 08:52
I'm with Random. Jetbikes are superb! Take a couple of minimal units, keep them off the table for as long as possible, hide them if necessary, then use them to capture/contest right at the end of the game.

Your opponent WILL ignor them, as long as you throw lots of other nasty stuff at them.

At 1750pt i take 2 units of 5 Dire Avengers (footslogging), and 1 unit of 3 basic jetbikes. The rest of my army does all the hard work.

DAVU tanks can be quite useful too.

Slashattack
17-12-2011, 09:06
The best Eldar troop choice in my opinion are DAVU units. I've run most of the others, and I get the best results with those because the other sections of the army, even fast attack are better (Specifically Warp Spiders).

Also Dire Avengers upgraded with the shimmershield, bladestorm and defend, with a farseer or Eldrad to fortune them can work nicely against most things. I've had the unit with Eldrad take down four wolf guard terminators and a wolf lord in combat, after a quick bladestorm.

Slash.

Ace Rimmer
17-12-2011, 10:41
As with any aspect of the Eldar army, they all have their uses.

The danger of assault for the defender guardians and rangers can be offset by keeping the scorpion's nearby. They beauty of the scorpion/ranger combo is that both can infiltrate (exarch powers depending) so you can actually infiltrate the rangers onto an objective with the scorpions to babysit them and keep them out of assault. It's not cheap, but it does keep you tightly anchored onto an objective early in the game.

Jetbikes are great for late game objective grabbing. I had been toying with the idea of starting a small wild rider host with 2 units of jetbikes(5-6) led by warlocks with spears and conceal (so they don't always have to turbo-boost) so they can advance behind some cover T1, spank a tank T2, retreat back behind some cover and let the rest of the army pummel the contents. Although now that Mymeara is out, Eldar army no 5 is blatantly going to be a corsair force.

Wraithguard are one of the hardest unit's to make work as troops as they are very points intensive, slow and very short ranged. If you're going to include them, they are going to be the anvil, so you'll need a good hammer to match with them.

Dire Avenger's are good as a small unit in a vehicle (DAVU) and can be okay as a short ranged fire-base i.e. (18" bladestorm followed by a turn of running away or mounting up and moving to maintain the distance), but aren't really strong enough to cope with the return fire they will take at 18" (because next turn they will be in rapid fire range) unless you can give them some protection (fortune/cover). I've never really like the idea of the shimmer-shield speed-bump, but I can see where it could have it's uses.

There is a very good guide here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308544) compiled by Irisado that you should read.

The thing to bear in mind, is that what you use is primarily dictated by the armies you are most likely to face.

Johnnya10
17-12-2011, 14:30
Overall, it's got to be Dire Avengers for me. Take a squad of 10, give the Exarch the double catapult option and learn to use blade storm to the best of its abilities. Followed shortly by Pathfinders - always worth taking the upgrade. That's purely personal opinion but it's served me very well in the past.

Hicks
17-12-2011, 17:25
I play Saim Hann, so I have to vote for jetbikes. With the prevalance of FNP now they are pretty much incapable of killing infantry, but they can still pump a load of S6 shots into the rear armour of transports. And there is the turboboosting onto objectives at the last moment that is priceless.

brightblade
17-12-2011, 18:03
They really are rubbish in hand to hand.

Mine aren't! :p My shimmershield exarch with defend is awesome! Not on occasion but all the time.

Pathfinders are awesome as they stick around so much but onlt really dish the damage when guide and doom are used. Then they will happily kill monstrous creatures in one turn of shooting.

My guardians do ok too but if I had to pick one it would be dire avengers. All the way. :D

Bergen Beerbelly
17-12-2011, 19:44
Since you have to have more than one unit of Troops, why make them all the same?

I use many different troop choices in the armies I play and my opponents find it hard to deal with them all because each type of troop brings something different to the game.

The number one thing to remember with every single troop choice the Eldar have is that you do NOT want to have them as front line troops in any capacity. The simple fact that they are a scoring unit will tempt a saavy general to destroy them with haste. If you decide to make them front line troops you make his job much easier.

That said, there is something to be said for the shimmershield/power weapon combo on dire avengers. If you are looking to pin down an enemy unit so you can destroy the rest of his army the Eldar can do no better than Dire Avengers with exarch+shimmershield/power weapon and a farseer/Eldrad to support them+ Asurmen.

That particular unit against Terminators will make them sooooo mad at you they will call foul.

However, few people want to use Asurmen so that's probably out. Anyway, my advice is take two units of Davu+ 2 units of Guardian Jetbikes and two units of Rangers/Pathfinders and you will do well.

Just remember that because pathfinders are a scoring unit you can also go grab them with one of your dedicated transports and move them onto an objective late game as well (for instance, when your suicide squad of Fire Dragons is finally dead and their transport is still alive, have it go back and pick up the Pathfinders.)

Cabalistic
17-12-2011, 20:44
One unit has been overlooked.

I'll be taking 2 units of Stormguardians with Fusionguns, Warlock @ Spear and Destructor to the biggest singleplayertournament in germany next year.

Essentially if your meta has changed as drastically as it appears to be over here (from MSU light transports to massed AV13 and 14 spam), you'll need all the melta you can get.

Stormguardians are probably one of the more versatile units, however, it will heavily depend on your environment.


In a rhino/razor/chimeraspam environment: get DAVUserpents
In a high AV environment: Get (some) Fusiongunguardians and some DAVUserpents
In a horde friendly environment (lol, this still exists? I think not) get Flamerguardians.

That's imho, the gist of it.

If you ever happen to have spare points in the range of 70 at the end of the listbuilding process a unit of Guardianjetbikes to reserve and boost onto an objective lategame is NEVER a bad idea, however, your troops-concept should not be centered around them.

fidesratioque
17-12-2011, 20:52
What's better vs 2+ armor, Storm Guardians with fusion guns or flamers?

RandomThoughts
17-12-2011, 20:59
What's better vs 2+ armor, Storm Guardians with fusion guns or flamers?

Depends on the size of the unit you intend to shoot, their toughness and their invulnerable save, if any. For instance, Fusion guns used to be Terminator-Killers, but against Stormshield-Termies, I'd probably prefer Flamers.

enygma7
18-12-2011, 01:03
As a basic troops choice I like avengers. Unlike what other people in this thread have been saying I wouldn't give them any upgrades at all. 10 avengers are pretty cheap and do what you want troops to do - put numbers and basic firepower onto the battlefield. The exarch and a transport option both massively up the points of the unit without providing significant benefit. I'd rather buy multiple units of cheap avengers to bulk the army up.

The other troops choices are OK in their niche but unusually specialist for a troops slot. Pathfinders are good for sitting on a home objective and not getting shot, but don't deliver much in the way of offensive ability for their points. Defender guardians have the same role but the platform gives them an option to contribute some light AT (I prefer EML). Their low BS makes them unattractive though.

Jetbikes can be fun. I like a warlock with destructor and a spear, plus one with a shuriken cannon. That gives you a highly mobile unit that is pretty decent against vehicles and has the option of devastating a horde before another unit assaults it. A little pricey for the low model count though.

My troops loadout would be 2x 10 dire avengers, 1x 5 pathfinders and 1x 4 jetbikes as equipped above if I could find the points. Or you could go the tourni DAVU route although frankly I find eldar vehicles badly lacking in offensive firepower for their points cost. They are however extremely good at ramming enemy tanks and ramraiding objectives in the final turns.

When making your choice bare in mind the eldar codex is expected to be redone next year. Any gimicky tournament style tactics and spamming are highly likely to stop working when that happens.

Xerkics
18-12-2011, 01:44
Dire Avengers are pretty good but eldar are really specialised so i wouldnt say they are the best. THe craft world would send specific troops to deal with specific threat so different unit might be better depending on what you are facing.

druchii
18-12-2011, 02:38
Dire Avengers all the way. 10 with an exarch with bladestorm/defend/shimmer shield runs barely more than a naked squad of marines, puts out a ton of hurt and are pretty survivable.

d

RandomThoughts
18-12-2011, 10:46
As a basic troops choice I like avengers. Unlike what other people in this thread have been saying I wouldn't give them any upgrades at all. 10 avengers are pretty cheap and do what you want troops to do - put numbers and basic firepower onto the battlefield. The exarch and a transport option both massively up the points of the unit without providing significant benefit. I'd rather buy multiple units of cheap avengers to bulk the army up.

Thanks for sharing. I've been eager to try a horde style eldar infantry host for a while now, and this will come in very handy!


One unit has been overlooked.

I'll be taking 2 units of Stormguardians with Fusionguns, Warlock @ Spear and Destructor to the biggest singleplayertournament in germany next year.

Not exactly overlooked, but I'll update my post above. ;)

LegionKalgar
18-12-2011, 14:57
hmm I will be original. Everyone underestimate Wraithguards. They are awsome. True, list is build around them, but can you really emagine how much 20 wraithguard can stand? Fortuned, with enhance almost unkillable. And they dont have to go forward if they dont have to. Support with harlies and wraithlords and everyone think twice to engage them in CC. Its not top cometitive list but very fun to play.

Cabalistic
18-12-2011, 16:25
your assumption is wrong. Battlecannons will kill Wraithguard dead. As will plasma etc.

Wraithguard also won't ever kill something unless your enemy decides that it's time to throw them a bone - 12" range and only 6" movement does that.

For fluffy play Wraithguard are okay, but for a rock hard list? not so much.

Denny
18-12-2011, 16:50
Also Dire Avengers upgraded with the shimmershield, bladestorm and defend, with a farseer or Eldrad to fortune them can work nicely against most things. I've had the unit with Eldrad take down four wolf guard terminators and a wolf lord in combat, after a quick bladestorm.Slash.

Listen to this man, he speaks the truth.

Avengers with defend, shimmershield and fortune are stupidly hard to kill in combat. Meanwhile Eldrad and the Exarch will methodically wipe out the attacking unit with powerweapon attacks, or you can chuck an assault unit in to finish the job faster.

LegionKalgar
18-12-2011, 20:29
your assumption is wrong. Battlecannons will kill Wraithguard dead. As will plasma etc.

Wraithguard also won't ever kill something unless your enemy decides that it's time to throw them a bone - 12" range and only 6" movement does that.

For fluffy play Wraithguard are okay, but for a rock hard list? not so much.
This is not a assumption. I play that list with succes. Offcourse is not easy list to play but i like challenges, and opponents mostly uderestimate power of this units. Good use of cover is mandatory.

xxRavenxx
18-12-2011, 20:50
your assumption is wrong. Battlecannons will kill Wraithguard dead. As will plasma etc.

Wraithguard also won't ever kill something unless your enemy decides that it's time to throw them a bone - 12" range and only 6" movement does that.

For fluffy play Wraithguard are okay, but for a rock hard list? not so much.

I think you're overly harsh on them.

Very good toughness + fortune means they are not going to be hurt by small arms fire.

Fortune + cover (both psychic and building) then drastically reduce casualties to battlecannons and plasma guns.

Once the plasma guns have (possibly) killed a wraith guard, the whole squad gets to return fire and charge. Which is nice.

The unit is certainly not unstoppable, but it can be very potent. I certainly know that few armies like directly fighting the wraith portion of my eldar.