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remrem
18-12-2011, 12:27
Hi everybody,

Quick question: Do you know a way to destroy a steam tank with high elves?

Thx.

Remrem

hwd
18-12-2011, 12:41
Lore of metal - searing doom

Anything that makes the stank take an initiative test (purple sun, pit of shades...)

hashrat
18-12-2011, 12:44
Only way I can do it with my DE, is with the lore of metal, or shadow (Mindrazor).
Failing that the withering can help a little, but only if your attacking with a dragon.
Purple sun and pit of shades should instantly remove it too iirc.

Bladelord
18-12-2011, 12:52
Pit of Shades & Purple Sun or the not so used lore of metal spells. Mindrazor maybe never trie it out.

remrem
18-12-2011, 13:01
Thanks for the comments!


Pit of Shades & Purple Sun or the not so used lore of metal spells. Mindrazor maybe never trie it out.


Only way I can do it with my DE, is with the lore of metal, or shadow (Mindrazor).
Failing that the withering can help a little, but only if your attacking with a dragon.


Lore of metal - searing doom

Anything that makes the stank take an initiative test (purple sun, pit of shades...)

I'll try it, thanks!

Gazak Blacktoof
18-12-2011, 13:13
It's usually best to wound and thereby cripple a steam tank instead of investing heavily in destroying it. If you damage a steam tank you'll make any action it takes more risky, reducing its effectiveness.

vinush
18-12-2011, 13:26
Throw a metric ton of bow fire at it. The thing is going to start failing saves sooner or later, and the it starts to have limited effectiveness as it can't reliably generate enough steam points to cause too much of a nuisance.

Algovil
18-12-2011, 14:14
But with the save, is it 2+? 3+? and T10, you will need a lot of bowfire, first roll to hit, then wound, then pass save.

I say you need at least 30 shots to cause a wound!

Novrain
18-12-2011, 14:15
Throw a metric ton of bow fire at it. The thing is going to start failing saves sooner or later, and the it starts to have limited effectiveness as it can't reliably generate enough steam points to cause too much of a nuisance.

Im fairly sure someone worked this out that you needed something like 300 bow shots to reliably put a couple of wounds on the stank... not really feasible.

brother_maynard
18-12-2011, 14:15
ummm, you realize that it will take approximately 240 bow shots at short range to put 4 wounds on the thing? and thats really the point at which you cripple it, 1-3 wounds and the empire player can still get decent mileage out of it, 4+ and its usless.

as a HE player, i think your best bet is to not try to kill it at all. deploy your army to get the matchups you want and bypass the tank as you advance. when you're in danger of getting a critical unit charged by the tank you can do one of 2 things- drop an eagle in front of it (it can't overrun or pursue), or charge it with an eagle (you'll win the first round and get grinded off the second). either way, the tank is immobilized for a whole turn, which is all the time the HE need to get their elites cutting up the soft bodies of state troops. otherwise you can dwellers or pit it.

theunwantedbeing
18-12-2011, 15:00
otherwise you can dwellers or pit it.

I think you mean purple sun, not dwellers as the latter has no effect on it at all.

WarmbloodedLizard
18-12-2011, 15:01
1. avoid/block it as long as possible
2. pit of shades
3. occam's mindrazor
4. lore of metal signature

The bearded one
18-12-2011, 15:20
Im fairly sure someone worked this out that you needed something like 300 bow shots to reliably put a couple of wounds on the stank... not really feasible.

72 on long range.

(72 shots, 36 hits, 6 wounds, 1 through the save.)

ihavetoomuchminis
18-12-2011, 16:07
White lions or Swordmasters with flaming sword of rhuin cast on them and the armour piercing banner in the unit.

The bearded one
18-12-2011, 16:14
Yeah, I've found flaming sword of ruin a decent strength enhancer against the steamtank where in other cases you'd prefer a flat out +1 strength. I find the lore of fire pretty useful in general.

tmarichards
18-12-2011, 17:41
It won't kill it outright, but you can tie a steam tank up by charging eagle into it- in your turn, the eagle maybe does a wound if it's lucky, but the big thing is that in the Empire player's turn it has to spend that turn grinding the eagle into the dust and so can't move. Do the same next turn with your next eagle, and it has to spend another turn of grinding the birdy.

As I said, this won't kill it (unless you have the most incredibly eagles known to Warhammer...) but it will at least tie it up for a couple of turns and let you deal with the rest of their army.

The bearded one
18-12-2011, 17:55
that'll cost you nearly as many points in eagles as the steamtank costs.

tmarichards
18-12-2011, 18:27
Not really, most high elf armies bring 2 eagles so that's 2 turns you can tie it up for. It's also not able to get into combat for the first couple of turns unless you offer it stuff.

The bearded one
18-12-2011, 18:33
if it drives (12" or 15" depending how lucky the steam tank owner is feeling) in turn 1 and is held up in turn 2 and 3 by eagles, it can still fight in turns 4 to 6. If you offer it 4 eagles you can keep it out of the game for the majority of the turns and only lose 200 while your opponent could not use 300pts worth (no VP for it though), although you need to make sure your eagles are not shot down or wounded. A wounded eagle might even get killed by the engineer's pistols if you're unlucky.

ihavetoomuchminis
18-12-2011, 19:11
Yeah, I've found flaming sword of ruin a decent strength enhancer against the steamtank where in other cases you'd prefer a flat out +1 strength. I find the lore of fire pretty useful in general.

It is better than +1S in many cases, especially against monsters, who usually have T6+, and even with S4, you wound them on 6's. With flaming sword, on 5's, and taking in account than many monsters have regen, it's even better.

And i agree. The lore of fire has been underrated. It is a good lore, and more important, it's easier to cast, even more if you throw a fireball first. I've seen a Fire Archmage with the +2 to fire item (once per battle) cast 4 spells in one single magic phase wich were all difficult to dispell. And the 3d6 S4 hits 48" range spell is always useful.

The bearded one
18-12-2011, 19:18
It is better than +1S in many cases, especially against monsters, who usually have T6+, and even with S4, you wound them on 6's. With flaming sword, on 5's, and taking in account than many monsters have regen, it's even better.

I guess because I use fire with my lizardmen (where almost all my combat units are str4 or higher), str5 and str4 with +1 to wound have the same required 'to wound' roll, but with strenght 3 units it does have a larger effect against high T.


And i agree. The lore of fire has been underrated. It is a good lore, and more important, it's easier to cast, even more if you throw a fireball first. I've seen a Fire Archmage with the +2 to fire item (once per battle) cast 4 spells in one single magic phase wich were all difficult to dispell. And the 3d6 S4 hits 48" range spell is always useful.

I think the lore attribute is one of the most practical ones. You fire a small spell at something like a fireball that enemies often let through, and then get +D3 to cast on your next one at that target

cornonthecob
18-12-2011, 19:23
Bolt thrower maybe ?

calnen
18-12-2011, 19:24
Re: All the Eagles comments - doesn't the High Elf player need the Eagles to kill warmachine crew?

Playing Empire, my elf opponent has had real trouble with the tank. In some lists he has the right spell to deal with it, but if not then he ends up either trying to ignore it (hard), or waste his eagles on it. Bowfire doesn't seem to do a lot.

Leogun_91
18-12-2011, 19:52
Foe bane is a wonderful weapon for this, it hits automatically and wounds on 2+, sure he can take saves but you can take the potion of strength and talisman of loec as well and your suicide noble will cause it problems, espesially with the savage beast of horros or another fun augment (which fortunately is easy enough to cast that you can do it with one PD and a stone ensuring that he has spent his dispel before that). A single person with Folariaths robe is nice, make it a shadowmage so you can replace it with another character if need be, he can't do **** about the guy unless he sends other units and you'll make sure to keep those occupied.

Spells are great, lore of metals signature is extremely useful as said but I'll add more. Curse of Anraheir basically tells a steamtank, you can't move, at all. Okkams Mindrazor will even the odds in battle, the pit of shades kills it. Spirit leech can make some wounds for a cheap cost but is unreliable, the caress of Laniph is good as it's 2d6-6 hits wounding on 4+ with no armoursaves, combined with the lore of shadows enfeebling foe it can destroy the tank, the purple sun is very, very useful.
Using steed of shadows on Caradryan and fly him into the tank to let his curse do the rest will probably work (though it might make you question the elves honor).
As against everything else Teclis is great against the tank (hell even his sword is great at killing steamtanks, though then you really need to get horros off).

Magic is your best bet really, but that's a really great bet.

remrem
19-12-2011, 18:11
So you guys are saying that:

- keep it busy with eagles (it will work, but i don't have eagles)
- shoot at it. (1 'wound in a game)
- lore of metal. (i think this is the best idea, because the Stank is hit on a 2+ and it can't take armour saves)
- lore of fire. (i think this ísn't going to do much, because it can still take armour saves)
- a magic item combo. (useful!)
- just wound it sot can't do much more or kills itself. (also useful)

Srry for my english, i'm dutch and still young.

IcedCrow
19-12-2011, 18:17
elven shooting against a steam tank would be relatively useless.

Bolt throwers are S6. You need 6s to wound.

I'd say focus on magic that hits Init.

DaemonReign
19-12-2011, 18:24
Remrem:

- Keeping it busy with eagles. This I interpret to be what the HE player does when the Stank catches his list with his pants down. That's a last resort panic sort of solution when you have no other choice.

- Shooting at it is a fairly silly solution too.

- Now.. Purple Sun and Pit of Shades will autokill the damn thing.

- Lore of Metal is good too: It will cripple the Stank but it will not get you those victory points in 'one go'.

- Magic Item Combo. Slightly more unreliable to lean on compared to just going straight for those 'autokilling' spells mentioned above. But sure, you at least have a good chance of crippling it.

- just wound it sot can't do much more or kills itself. (also useful)

Yeah.. Half of the above 'solutions' to the problem are about doing exactly that.

I'd personally go for the Lore of Death or Lore of Shadow 'solution'. Both lores have other uses vs the Empire, and like I said they get the job done instead of leaving you with a T10 'insane armour' peice of junk sitting in the way of your army.

WarmbloodedLizard
19-12-2011, 18:58
Remrem:

- Keeping it busy with eagles. This I interpret to be what the HE player does when the Stank catches his list with his pants down. That's a last resort panic sort of solution when you have no other choice.

I wouldn't say so. rather you free up your other units and magic to combat the rest of this army, and when your done with it, you can always go back to kill the tank. (of course you may be lucky, go first, pit of shade the thing and kill it. but that will usually not work because it's the only evil spell you have at the moment and he will just scroll/dispel it)

Rogue
19-12-2011, 19:34
Bolt thrower maybe ?

A few years back with my dwarfs, I was able to disable a steam tank with a pair of bolt throwers. It was on the flank where I only had the bolt throwers available. After two turn or so of shooting it had enough wounds to not make it worth my opponants while to continue to move with it. We were both astounded by the effectiveness of my bolt throwers on it. While doable, I would say that it would take you much of the game shooting at it with bolt throwers to disable it, while your BT's are not supporting the rest of your army.

WarmbloodedLizard
19-12-2011, 19:37
A few years back with my dwarfs, I was able to disable a steam tank with a pair of bolt throwers. It was on the flank where I only had the bolt throwers available. After two turn or so of shooting it had enough wounds to not make it worth my opponants while to continue to move with it. We were both astounded by the effectiveness of my bolt throwers on it. While doable, I would say that it would take you much of the game shooting at it with bolt throwers to disable it, while your BT's are not supporting the rest of your army.

A few years back, STs were T6 ;)

Morax
19-12-2011, 20:32
Best bet is a level 2 mage with lore of shadow and seerstaff. He has to pick his spells before battle so you pick Pit of Shades and Mystifying Miasma. Every solid High Elf list has a banner of sorcery in it and so power dice aren't generally an issue. If you run across a steam tank, a pit of shades or two is by far the best usage of your spells as nothing else in your list can deal with it. After it is dead, the Miasma is an invaluable spell that always finds a target on the table. In this way you keep versitility in your wizard and sure up a short comming in your list all at the same time.

Second best option is level two wizard with lore of death and seerstaff. He has to pick his spells before battle so you take Purple Sun and Soul Blight. Same function as shadow except that it fills different holes with the utility spells, doesn't use the much maligned lore of shadow, the spells are a bit harder to cast but have a bigger payoff. Soul Blight into a combat will make your toughness 3 elves with, at best, a 4+ save almost durable against strength 4 enemies and you will hit harder to boot. 40 ASF attacks at strength three can do some damage against chaos warriors when they are only toughness 3. The Purple Sun is a closer ranged spell then Pit of Shades but it can remove multiple units, wrecks an ogre/dwarf list by itself if properly placed, and can get you more dice to cast more spells.

DaemonReign
19-12-2011, 20:44
I wouldn't say so. rather you free up your other units and magic to combat the rest of this army, and when your done with it, you can always go back to kill the tank. (of course you may be lucky, go first, pit of shade the thing and kill it. but that will usually not work because it's the only evil spell you have at the moment and he will just scroll/dispel it)

I see your argument. And yeah maybe it's actually a viable tactic.
I reckon an unwounded Stank eats through quite a few Eagles per turn though, and they are not unbreakable are they (?) so while I see what you're saying I just think the risk of them breaking (or being killed) 'too soon' as too much of a liability.

But yeah as with getting anything through against Empire in the Magic Phase getting that Pit of Shades or Purple Sun will require the mindset of trying to get Irresistable Force. That's true.

But the fact that you got that Seerstaff Morax talks about (meaning you don't need all those magic levels to 'make sure' you're getting the right spell from the Lore) just compounds how much more of an easy and straight route the autokilling-business really is.

@Morax: While wholeheartedly agreeing with you I kinda wonder why you wouldn't pick Pit of Shades and Occam's on that mage (?). I mean: If he survives forcing through that Pit on the Stank you got a pretty damn good Augment to boost through on the rest of your army. SoA and wounding on 2+ is pretty damn potent, no?

Those Eagles could be all over the place killing warmachines and bothering other units instead of being grinded down by the Stank, and (as you say yourself) sooner or later you're gonna have to deal with the damn thing anyway so why not just start by trying to remove it all-together?

WarmbloodedLizard
19-12-2011, 21:19
Those Eagles could be all over the place killing warmachines and bothering other units instead of being grinded down by the Stank, and (as you say yourself) sooner or later you're gonna have to deal with the damn thing anyway so why not just start by trying to remove it all-together?

sooner or later is usually turn 5 or 6 :D 1st turn, the tank does nothing/you charge it. then you can stop it for 1 turn per eagle. unless you lose the remaining eagles to magic/shooting, the tanks will very likely never be in combat against anything but your eagles.

DaemonReign
19-12-2011, 21:54
@WarmBloodiedLizard:
Fine. I guess I stand corrected.
This is all assuming your Eagles don't fail their breaktests (likely outside of Inspiring Presence and Hold Your Ground radius as they are), and also assuming the Empire-player don't see your (early deployment drops?) coming and has a small unit ready on teach side of the Stank that flank-charges your Eagles and makes their numbers dwindle a whole lot faster than one per turn..

Frankly, it still seems to me you got at least as many what if's to worry about with this tactic as compared to placing your hope on one measly set of double 6's in the 2-3 first Turns of the game.

I mean even with my Daemons I prefer those two autokill-spells over Balesword, Awesomestrength etcetera.

Then again I guess you never said the Eagle-tarpit was actually better than the spells, just not as bad as I made it out to be. So fine, maybe I underestimate those birdies. :)

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
20-12-2011, 02:38
For High Elves magic would the most reliable way of doing this. As many posters already pointed out Lore of Metal or Lore of Shadows would work well against a Steam Tanks. As most HE players already use magic heavy armies then I suggest the following template for an army based for fighting Empire:

1) 4th Lvl. Mage with Seerstaff of Saphery, Folariath’s Robes, & Guardian Phoenix using Lore of Shadows (Spell choices would be The Withering, The Penumbral Pendulum, Pit of Shades, & Okkam's Mindrazor)

2) 2nd Lvl. Mage with Silver Wand using High Magic for the Shield of Saphery Spell with the potential get two other useful spells in the lore.

3) A Regiment of White Lions with full command with Razor Standard & Ironcurse Icon

4) A Regiment of Phoenix Guard equipped with Banner of Sorcery & The Skeinsliver.

5) At least 2 RBT's

This template is can be used for 2000 pts. & above and can be used for something other than an Empire army. With this setup you got 3 phases per turn to cripple or destroy the Steam Tank as per the suggestions posted on this thread.

Francis
21-12-2011, 12:47
A lvl 2 with seerstaff choosing pit of shades. Put him in a 5 man unit of shadow warriors and run him on the flanks, the whole unit ticks in at 245 points. This is my solution to everything that is scary and has a low initiative.

ihavetoomuchminis
21-12-2011, 16:06
And....why shadow warriors?

Morax
21-12-2011, 19:02
@Morax: While wholeheartedly agreeing with you I kinda wonder why you wouldn't pick Pit of Shades and Occam's on that mage (?). I mean: If he survives forcing through that Pit on the Stank you got a pretty damn good Augment to boost through on the rest of your army. SoA and wounding on 2+ is pretty damn potent, no?

Okkams is just too high for a level 2 to cast reliably imo. I'd much rather have Miasma as a back up spell due to its large range and uber utility. -d3 WS can mean hitting elves on 5's, -d3 Movement can slow a combat beast unit to a crawl, -d3 BS can stop a unit from hitting completely. All that for a casting value matching the lowest in the game. I also assume that I will be playing with a level 4 that I will want to be using most of my dice. Usually a level 4 with silver wand and lore of life if not Teclis himself. Either way I won't have the 5-6 dice needed to get Okkam's off when it is needed as the life buffs will likely be needed more. White Lions don't need hitting power help and niether do Swordmasters most of the time. They do very well wounding on 2's and 3's.


For High Elves magic would the most reliable way of doing this. As many posters already pointed out Lore of Metal or Lore of Shadows would work well against a Steam Tanks. As most HE players already use magic heavy armies then I suggest the following template for an army based for fighting Empire:

1) 4th Lvl. Mage with Seerstaff of Saphery, Folariath’s Robes, & Guardian Phoenix using Lore of Shadows (Spell choices would be The Withering, The Penumbral Pendulum, Pit of Shades, & Okkam's Mindrazor)

2) 2nd Lvl. Mage with Silver Wand using High Magic for the Shield of Saphery Spell with the potential get two other useful spells in the lore.

3) A Regiment of White Lions with full command with Razor Standard & Ironcurse Icon

4) A Regiment of Phoenix Guard equipped with Banner of Sorcery & The Skeinsliver.

5) At least 2 RBT's

This template is can be used for 2000 pts. & above and can be used for something other than an Empire army. With this setup you got 3 phases per turn to cripple or destroy the Steam Tank as per the suggestions posted on this thread.

This build seems a bit too focused on high armor save targets. Also why waste the seerstaff on a level 4 that comes close to getting every spell in the lore you want anyway. You would be better to give him the silverwand and the lowbie mage the seerstaff, 2 wizards with the spells you want being better than one. I also wouldn't normally go with the Razor Standard on a strength 6 unit. Overkill against just about anything but calvary and with their limited use the point value of that banner is just brutal.

The repeater bolt throwers are still a matter of contention with most HE players I know. Some love them, some hate them. I'm in the hate them camp as a strength 6 bolt shot isn't what it was with Warsphinxes, Steamtanks, and Arachnaroks around and 6 shots at a moderate strength tend to just be shrugged off by units in the age of the horde. Add in the a point cost that makes 2 of them as much as a average sized unit of swordmasters and they just don't cut the mustard for me. I'd much rather spend those precious points elsewhere.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
22-12-2011, 02:22
This build seems a bit too focused on high armor save targets. Also why waste the seerstaff on a level 4 that comes close to getting every spell in the lore you want anyway. You would be better to give him the silverwand and the lowbie mage the seerstaff, 2 wizards with the spells you want being better than one. I also wouldn't normally go with the Razor Standard on a strength 6 unit. Overkill against just about anything but calvary and with their limited use the point value of that banner is just brutal.

Well the army template was a response to the OP request for stopping a Stank, however this list can still be used for something other than what was orginally asked. The reason why I went with the Seerstaff is give the Mage a ward save since Lore of Shadow doesn't provide any protection spells otherwise I would have gone with the standard immortal mage build.

Also the main reason for going with silver wand on the 2nd Lvl. mage is that for High Magic spell selection the Shield of Saphery is already one of the possible rolls you can make so this increases the chances for getting a number of offensive spells in addition to the option to default to SoS. So if you get a spell that is of limited use of the 3 choices that is rolled then you can still default to the SoS spell which will be used to shield the unit(s) attacking the Stank.

The Razor Standard on the White Lions is to give a -4 armor save reducing the ST's armor save to a 5+ in case the caster wants to use just Withering on the Stank and use Okkam on another unit. Also since WLs are usually at the front lines for attacking heavily armored units then the Razor Standard comes in handy should magic fail. This is just in case Pits of Shades fails to knock out the Stank in the first place (due to deviation or it being dispelled).


The repeater bolt throwers are still a matter of contention with most HE players I know. Some love them, some hate them. I'm in the hate them camp as a strength 6 bolt shot isn't what it was with Warsphinxes, Steamtanks, and Arachnaroks around and 6 shots at a moderate strength tend to just be shrugged off by units in the age of the horde. Add in the a point cost that makes 2 of them as much as a average sized unit of swordmasters and they just don't cut the mustard for me. I'd much rather spend those precious points elsewhere.

In this case I think it would work well since:

1) It will combo with Shadow's Withering & High Magic's Curse of Arrow Attraction well. Also should it hit and wound the Stank gets no armor save. This combo would work against the other types of large creatures as well.

2) For Horde units Pits of Shades combined with Withering to help with RBTs and arrows shots assuming archers or LSG are taken (and maybe Flames of Phoenix or Curse of Arrow Attraction if the 2nd Lvl. mage happens to roll these) will do a number on those units.