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Yodhrin
20-04-2006, 20:09
What do we know about them?

As far as I can tell, info seems to be scarce to non-existant, googling, even without quotes, just turns up sites with the words Dark and Mechanicus somewhere near each other, heh.

Are they a single entity or myriad different factions? Do they all worship Chaos, or do they just see it as a tool? Do some forsake Chaos altogether? Anything at all would be helpful, as I cant afford to buy Dark Adeptus until the end of the month.

Overlord Krycis
20-04-2006, 20:31
I think you'll just have to wait...I couldn't find anything either.

Mechanicus
20-04-2006, 20:35
The best I can offer is that they rebelled against the Fabricator general during the Horus Heresy, The Imperium thought them eradicated, really they were in the eye of terror. They want the flesh and the machine to become one, with biomechanical implants, which are heretical in the Imperium (And indeed, the Mechanicus). I believe (Though I could be wrong) that the Dark Mechanicus made the Planet Killer.

I'll post if I find anything else.

malika
20-04-2006, 20:36
All we know is that half of the Adeptus Mechanicus sided with Horus during the Heresy. We also know that the Hellblade and Helltalon aircraft are created on some Chaos forgeworld. The Defiler also falls in a similar category. So there is a little bit of Dark Mechanicus info.

I think GW never gave that much info on them, but hey...what about trying to come with something yourself and see what you come up with? :) I would imagine the Dark Mechanicus to be very "liberal" as in not limited by the whol holy doctrines of the Machine God, definately add an element of insanity and alcemy (sp?) into the mix and oh yeah daemonology combined with all this!

Loricatus
20-04-2006, 21:28
I suggest you read Dark Adeptus (if you haven't already), and a lot of your questions will be answered.

In addition to what Mechanicus said, the Dark Mechanicus in the novel actually doesn't know they are worshipping Chaos, but rather have a slightly divergent viewpoint on the Omnissiah.

Puffin Magician
20-04-2006, 21:41
The Dark Mechanicus, AFAIK, is simply a "fallen" version of the Adeptus Mechanicus, including their hugely varying facets of study, philosophy, and worship. IMO they have the same lust for knowledge and scientific inquiry as their loyalist counterparts, yet are unhindered by the restrictive "STC-only" attitude the AdMech currently employ.

The best I can offer is that they rebelled against the Fabricator general during the Horus HeresyDidn't the Fabricator General himself side with the traitors? I remember reading that somewhere. Edit: I guess I did read that somewhere!

Khaine's Messenger
20-04-2006, 21:47
The best I can offer is that they rebelled against the Fabricator general during the Horus Heresy

Er? Kelbor Hal, Fabricator General of the Adeptus Mechanicus, was one of the chief proponents of the Dark Mechanicus heresy! Of course the Emperor promptly replaced him once Kelbor went rogue, but that's beside the point. ;)

Anyway, check out >this thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26343)< for some previous discussion.

Rico
20-04-2006, 21:49
Didn't the Fabricator General himself side with the traitors? I remember reading that somewhere.

The Horus Heresy vol III has a great picture of Horus and his war council. In it is said Fabricator General.

Not sure what this meant for the loyalist Mechanicus faction both during and immediately after the Heresy though.

GodofWarTx
20-04-2006, 22:10
they trade the restrictions of the AdMech for the restrictions and whims of the chaos prime powers. Besides, the fine line between genius and insanity im sure was crossed long long ago =P

fracas
21-04-2006, 00:50
who do the dark mechanicus worship?
if the machine god = the dragon, there is not way chaose mechanicus would worship a c'tan
and the nature to chaos to me seems antithetical to a machine-purity-spirit concept

Krusk
21-04-2006, 01:09
I imagine that a good portion of dark mechanicus don't actually use demons or magic in what they make. Some doubtless use xenotech, some, are actually creative. A few I would think, do things like make intelligient machines. I think of the, as just being rebels mostly, they don't worship chaos mostly, even if they do work with chaos marines for whatever reason.

Khaine's Messenger
21-04-2006, 02:01
if the machine god = the dragon, there is not way chaose mechanicus would worship a c'tan

The gods have many masks to totally mess around with mortals' heads; one reality-warping mega-creature from the dawn of time is pretty much just as good as any other. And since the Dragon can't really speak for himself if we're to believe what's suggested, it's not exactly like he could do anything about it.


and the nature to chaos to me seems antithetical to a machine-purity-spirit concept

Keep in mind that the central tenets of the Cult Mechanicus revolve more around the acquisition of knowledge and understanding (as they see it, anyway) and the Machine God's role in doling such things out...rather than much about machines themselves (although to the lay person, the machines are the most prominent bit). As such, gleaning knowledge (any old bit of trivia relevant to your chosen specialization, really) from the alien or a servant of Chaos is of no consequence to them so long as they believe they are taking the appropriate precautions and protective measures. Or so some of the AdMech's fringe groups would have you believe.

Anyway, "Chaos" Mechanicus could tend towards any of the major gods or any of the minor ones if they see them as major/minor manifestations of the Machine God's resplendant glory and all-encompassing knowledge (even, perhaps, the Great Unmalleable One ;) although worshipping him would be a bit of a downer).

Mechanicus
21-04-2006, 15:57
Er? Kelbor Hal, Fabricator General of the Adeptus Mechanicus, was one of the chief proponents of the Dark Mechanicus heresy! Of course the Emperor promptly replaced him once Kelbor went rogue, but that's beside the point.
I meant Kane, I just couldn't remember the name (Though I should have remembered about Kelbor...).

ryng_sting
21-04-2006, 16:50
who do the dark mechanicus worship?
if the machine god = the dragon, there is not way chaose mechanicus would worship a c'tan
and the nature to chaos to me seems antithetical to a machine-purity-spirit concept

However likely, it's not confirmed. But if it is true, they're no different than the regular AM - they don't realise who they really are worshipping. Dark Mechanicus aren't exactly Chaos lackeys. They just take the AM's beliefs and twist them to include daemonology and other practices loyalists would find abhorrent.

One of they key arguments Horus used (and Kelbor Hal developed) was that the Emperor wasn't really what he claimed (an aspect of the Omnissiah), and that he was simply using the AM for his own ends. Doubtless this fuelled the doubters of the time, who claimed the true Machine God was still sleeping under Mars...

I find this a wee bit shaky - where does it say the Emperor actually claimed he was the Omnissiah? From what I've gathered, all that stuff is just post-hoc justification; all they did was offer each other a mutually beneficial alliance.

EarthScorpion
21-04-2006, 17:28
I also have (I believe) read somewhere that they are somehow linked to the creation of the Obliterator technovirus. It would certainly fit in with their hybridisation of man and machine into an organic whole.

Mechanicus
21-04-2006, 17:32
One of they key arguments Horus used (and Kelbor Hal developed) was that the Emperor wasn't really what he claimed (an aspect of the Omnissiah), and that he was simply using the AM for his own ends. Doubtless this fuelled the doubters of the time, who claimed the true Machine God was still sleeping under Mars...

I find this a wee bit shaky - where does it say the Emperor actually claimed he was the Omnissiah? From what I've gathered, all that stuff is just post-hoc justification; all they did was offer each other a mutually beneficial alliance. Well. from what I've read, the statement is that the Emperor landed on Mars and the Tech-priests saw "his leadership and marvel at the technical secrets at his command." He was hailed as the Omnissiah, the Machine God incarnate. There were some who disagreed, but they were killed.

This implies it was the Tech-priests who hailed the emperor as the Omnissiah, not the Emperor telling them.

calicojack
21-04-2006, 17:50
In a few sections of the Fluff dating back a while, when the God-Emperor landed on Mars, he was greeted by the Adeptus Mechanicus as an outsider, and underwent the ritual battery of tests, including genetic tests. Apparently, this genetic testing was used to hold up that the Emperor was _the_ genetically "true" human, and the embodiment of the Machine God, thus the Omnissiah, or the avatar embodiment of all knowledge [which is, to the AM, by definition human knowledge... xenos knowledge has fallen].

Of course, I suspect lots of minor heresies arose over the years in small groups of radicals over whether the Emperor was/is really the Omnissiah. The Horus Heresy merely one prominent one in which _lots_ of Adepts rose at once. Heck, my own LatD army's fluff is based on a single Explorator fleet's encounter with something in a Space Hulk which convinced them that the Emperor was _not_ the Omnissiah.

As regards Mars and the Dragon equation, I don't think it is [thankfully] at all established which came first: the Adeptus Mechanicus' worship of the Machine God and the Quest for Knowledge, and the discovery by some Adepts [likely high ranking and influential] of the C'tan Tomb [likely] on Mars. The Adeptus has this theory of a vast intelligence or body of knowledge ["the Machine God"], and when someone fitting the part comes along and makes the claim, what evidence would you use to deny?

A vastly powerful Star Vampire [Ia! Shub Niggurath! Ia! Chaugnar Faugn!] seems to be the Machine God embodied. Worship it, and tell a couple of your buddies, but keep it secret, since it might be decried as heresy and the "god" can make you very powerful. A vastly powerful minor Chaos Power [Ia! Nyarlathotep! Ia! Azathoth!] seems to be the Machine God embodied. Worship it, and forget those fools still back on Mars who think that corpse is the Omnissiah.

All one.

Jimbobjeff
21-04-2006, 18:43
ok...that last bit confused me.....Ia shub....

Puffin Magician
21-04-2006, 21:49
I think it's a mistake to automatically link the Dark Mechanicus with the forces of Chaos. I see them as equivalent to Renegade Space Marines; forced out of loyalty for any of a thousand-and-one reasons; take parallels from the Flame Falcons, Legion of the Damned, Mantis Warriors - all have blurred the line between friend and foe and none have any connections to the dark powers.

Yes, we find several instances of the Dark Mechanicus being involved with Chaos forces [through the Obliterator virus, evil Ordinatii, and Daemon Engines] but that's not the end-all be-all of their organization. It's likely that they're involved with such projects because there's no real alternative - technical knowledge needs to come from somewhere and the Traitor Legions don't know everything.

Remember several groups that are neither Loyalist nor Chaos-worshippers: Renegades, Outcasts, Pirates. For a myriad of reasons they can be expelled from the Adeptus Mechanicus and "sign-on" to the DarkMech forces.

fracas
21-04-2006, 22:16
if the dark mechanicus exist and create within the eye of terror, they are bound by chaos
why would the chaos god allow them to worship anyone else other than one of their own, and even that is often contested.

Puffin Magician
22-04-2006, 00:50
I'm suggesting that the Dark Mechanicus known to us in the fluff as Chaos-worshippers are probably just one of many facets of the Adeptus Mechanicus who have fallen from grace. I doubt they all operate from within the Eye, and who's to say they worship any Chaos god at all?

There's nothing Chaos about crossing between Warpspace and Realspace either - Imperial ships do it constantly as their only means of long-distance travel.

Tarquinn
22-04-2006, 19:32
ok...that last bit confused me.....Ia shub....
It's an H.P.Lovecraft reference. The guy responsible for the Cthuluhu mythos.

calicojack
23-04-2006, 00:52
It is indeed a Lovecraft reference. The C'tan are basically vast Lovecraftian monstrosities, whereas the Great Powers are basically Moorcock monstrosities, with some Lovecraftian elements. Which is not an attempt to denigrate either - 40k and WFB alike are pastiches of literary and "pop" culture elements which the creators of the games enjoy[ed]. I also enjoy those sources, so don't particularly mind pastiche.