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NakedFisherman
20-04-2006, 22:21
The new USWD316 has the Vostroyan doctrines in it.

They are as follows:
- Special Weapons Squads
- Heavy Weapons Platoons
- Carapace Armor
- Sharpshooters
- Hardened Fighters

Just a heads up to everyone. I got three of the platoons yesterday and am loving the models!

Ivan Stupidor
20-04-2006, 22:32
For those keeping track, that's 105 points for a basic Infantry squad before upgrades.

General Samuel of the 101
20-04-2006, 22:36
Wee,2 of those doctrines are ones i already use in my Army,at first i thinked that Hardened Fighters was worht it,now i know that Guardmen in C-C are dead meat no mater 1+ WS,and at 15pts!!! what a great bargain

Ivan Stupidor
21-04-2006, 00:09
Wee,2 of those doctrines are ones i already use in my Army,at first i thinked that Hardened Fighters was worht it,now i know that Guardmen in C-C are dead meat no mater 1+ WS,and at 15pts!!! what a great bargain

I agree; it is a baragin*. My enemies have learned to fear the power of my WS3 Sanctioned Psykers.

*Yes, I know what he meant.

Gupp
21-04-2006, 00:32
they are somthing along the line of 33% better than a standard guardsman in cc vs marines, however.

Ivan Stupidor
21-04-2006, 01:07
they are somthing along the line of 33% better than a standard guardsman in cc vs marines, however.

And Orks, and Eldar Aspect Warriors, and Dark Eldar Warriors, and Hormagaunts, and Necrons, and Kharn the Betrayer, and probably a few I've forgotten. It may be slightly overcosted, but it's still pretty good - there's nothing like Guard officers hitting Marines on a 3+ to bring a smile to your face.

Strikerkc
21-04-2006, 01:28
...there's nothing like Guard officers hitting Marines on a 3+ to bring a smile to your face.

Agreed, but it's not particularly awsome for the infantry squads (certainly not en-mass). Decent for your command squads and for the ocasional infantry squad to help out the HQ's if they get dug in.

Bloodknight
21-04-2006, 03:17
105 points per squad, wow....you can get 5 plague marines with a plasma gun for that price ;)
Iīd not do it. Guard donīt get better when they cost more.

Strikerkc
21-04-2006, 03:33
105 points per squad, wow....you can get 5 plague marines with a plasma gun for that price ;)
Iīd not do it. Guard donīt get better when they cost more.

They just picked those doctrines to encourage a few more people to play them. They figure it's better to entice a lot of people into buying 70 of them, as oposed to a bunch of people buying 200 of them.

I'm certain if they had picked close order drill, Iron disciplin, drop troopers, xeno fighters, and conscripts, it would mean less people would play them (since using "official" rules is important to a lot of people) becuase it'd take more models.

NakedFisherman
21-04-2006, 03:45
The only doctrine that must be taken for every squad is Carapace Armor.

The other doctrines (Sharpshooters in particular) are situational. Sharpshooters on Fire Support Squads is particularly useful.

Also, medics are proportionately better in an army with Carapace Armor.

Strikerkc
21-04-2006, 03:57
Also, medics are proportionately better in an army with Carapace Armor.

True, but is a 135% points increase per squad worth it to improve the usefullness of aproximatly 3 models in the entire army?

tuebor
21-04-2006, 05:03
I'm considering using Vostoryan models as Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. I really can't see using their suggested doctrines in a Guard army. Perhaps CoD will having something that makes it worthwhile. We'll see.

ExxonValdez
21-04-2006, 05:19
Their doctrines also revolve around their fluff. Fluff is what makes this game fun, not competitive. There are no doubts in my mind that there are doctrines that are almost useless and some that are situational and some that every army should utilize. If everyone played to win and bred the best army possible we would all have the same army lists. I'm not crazy about the models or the doctrines but I do like the story, but mostly I will enjoy killing them by the dozens.

Colonel_Kreitz
21-04-2006, 05:36
True, but is a 135% points increase per squad worth it to improve the usefullness of aproximatly 3 models in the entire army?

If that were the only improvement, no. But keep in mind, IG with carapace armor with be able to actually take saves against incoming bolter fire or even pulse rifle fire.

The irony, of course, is that the first IG army with carapace armor accompanies the Cities of Death Codex, where there's more cover and basic armor save matters less...:rolleyes:

NakedFisherman
21-04-2006, 05:54
True, but is a 135% points increase per squad worth it to improve the usefullness of aproximatly 3 models in the entire army?

It's not a 135% increase, and as has been said before it's not the only advantage.

tuebor
21-04-2006, 06:02
If that were the only improvement, no. But keep in mind, IG with carapace armor with be able to actually take saves against incoming bolter fire or even pulse rifle fire.

The irony, of course, is that the first IG army with carapace armor accompanies the Cities of Death Codex, where there's more cover and basic armor save matters less...:rolleyes:

In tighter quarters CC will be much more of a factor, so we'll see exactly how CoD's rules pan out.

Sgt Whiskey Swiper
21-04-2006, 06:46
Veterans would be a good option, just swap it for Hardened Fighters.

Unimpressive doctrines - was hoping more for a whole new armylist.

~Swipe.

Barbarossa
21-04-2006, 09:11
Hmm, the only doctrine I will definately keep is Carapace.
Heavy weapons platoons are IMHO not worth it because you can take 5 squads with the HQ choice anyway and I'd rather field some more tanks.
Platoon command squads usually fill the role of special weapon teams for me.
The Sharpshooters fluff seems to be based solely on the special issue lasguns and thus would make no sense for special and heavy weapons so I'd drop that too. Besides, I already use that doctrine for my Praetorians.
Hardened Fighters: Hmpf. Seems to be expensive, but i think I'll try it out for some time.
That leaves me with three Doctrine slots to fill. I think close order drill is a must for city fighters. They'll be crammed into small ruined buildings most of the time anyway.
The other two will be (for now) Independent Commissars and Preachers. This will give my little Vostroyans some added combat punch.
If I ever find a way to easily convert Vostroyan Rough Riders on some kind of furred beasts I'll have to think about dropping two doctrines and take Rough Rides and Xeno Mounts instead. Cavalry with a 3+ save? Yes please! :evilgrin:


So, got any comments? Criticism? Random ravings that have absolutely nothing to do with what I just said?

ArtificerArmour
21-04-2006, 10:19
I told everyone they'd have specials, did anyone believe me? Noooooo.

I'd probably replace the heavy platoons with rough riders.

Wolflord Havoc
21-04-2006, 10:34
The best games have got to be Guard vs Guard - then the doctrine system really does come into its own

Strikerkc
21-04-2006, 14:49
It's not a 135% increase...

Sorry :rolleyes:, it makes them 135% of their normal cost, is that better? ;)


In tighter quarters CC will be much more of a factor, so we'll see exactly how CoD's rules pan out.

quite true, with the COD codex carapace armor might very well be a nesecity with how they've made things.

tuebor
21-04-2006, 16:12
The best games have got to be Guard vs Guard - then the doctrine system really does come into its own

I agree wholeheartedly. When it's IG vs. IG all kinds of things that get left by the wayside come into their own, like mortars, Ogryns, Ratlings, shotguns, etc.

NakedFisherman
21-04-2006, 16:30
I'll be using the doctrines as written. I personally find them to be rather useful.

You can really pump out some heavy, accurate firepower with Vostroyans.

Some guy (UK)
21-04-2006, 16:37
Question- if Hvy. weapon sqauds are only in the HQ section, do you have to take the reserved troops choice Heavy weapon squads in your dcotrines???

Later, Some Guy

cerealkiller195
21-04-2006, 18:50
no i believe its to have them as heavy support choices

i really don't like the doctrines, maybe cause i think that a russian army should focus on quantity over quality. ::shrugs:: I guess if they didn't go w/ the whole russian thing i would think differently about it. Though i am totally fixated on how nice the tanks look, anyone know how to paint them like that? looks like rotting flesh?

pinball wizard
21-04-2006, 19:14
firstly, i hink 135pts a squad is stupid, im quite happy with 90pts a squad, playin gaurd is about flooding the board with heavy weapons, and tanks, at 135pts im barely gonna get two troops thats made worse with the loss of grenediers meaning a loss of cheap troops,

but the models are nice so that makes up for it i guess

pinball wizard
21-04-2006, 19:38
but i dont think ill be taking them in my tallarns

cerealkiller195
21-04-2006, 20:00
being metal i guess thats why they gave them doctrines that weigh them down pts wise.

Schaefer
21-04-2006, 20:07
no i believe its to have them as heavy support choices

i really don't like the doctrines, maybe cause i think that a russian army should focus on quantity over quality. ::shrugs:: I guess if they didn't go w/ the whole russian thing i would think differently about it. Though i am totally fixated on how nice the tanks look, anyone know how to paint them like that? looks like rotting flesh?

Think Czarists , not Soviets.

C/-Rt3r
21-04-2006, 20:20
no i believe its to have them as heavy support choices

i really don't like the doctrines, maybe cause i think that a russian army should focus on quantity over quality. ::shrugs:: I guess if they didn't go w/ the whole russian thing i would think differently about it. Though i am totally fixated on how nice the tanks look, anyone know how to paint them like that? looks like rotting flesh?

Where have you seen the tanks? Can you please post a link?

Ironhand
21-04-2006, 20:24
The Valhallans are the Russian (WWII) analogue in 40K. I don't know what the Vostroyans are supposed to be - to me they look like the Wicked Witch's guards in the old Wizard of Oz movie.

Tom
21-04-2006, 20:33
Think pre-Soviet Russia gone a little Steampunk. There's a hint of Khador in them.

BloodRaven
21-04-2006, 22:39
Hmm, the only doctrine I will definately keep is Carapace.
Heavy weapons platoons are IMHO not worth it because you can take 5 squads with the HQ choice anyway and I'd rather field some more tanks.
Platoon command squads usually fill the role of special weapon teams for me.
The Sharpshooters fluff seems to be based solely on the special issue lasguns and thus would make no sense for special and heavy weapons so I'd drop that too. Besides, I already use that doctrine for my Praetorians.
Hardened Fighters: Hmpf. Seems to be expensive, but i think I'll try it out for some time.
That leaves me with three Doctrine slots to fill. I think close order drill is a must for city fighters. They'll be crammed into small ruined buildings most of the time anyway.
The other two will be (for now) Independent Commissars and Preachers. This will give my little Vostroyans some added combat punch.
If I ever find a way to easily convert Vostroyan Rough Riders on some kind of furred beasts I'll have to think about dropping two doctrines and take Rough Rides and Xeno Mounts instead. Cavalry with a 3+ save? Yes please! :evilgrin:


So, got any comments? Criticism? Random ravings that have absolutely nothing to do with what I just said?

Well, heavy weapon platoons are effective for cityfights.

Ironhand
21-04-2006, 23:55
The thing I don't like about Heavy Weapons platoons is they're too easy to knock out. I've found it more useful to spread my heavy weapons in my headquarters, infantry, and veteran squads. I can engage more targets that way, and they are much harder to knock out.

NakedFisherman
22-04-2006, 00:08
The thing I don't like about Heavy Weapons platoons is they're too easy to knock out. I've found it more useful to spread my heavy weapons in my headquarters, infantry, and veteran squads. I can engage more targets that way, and they are much harder to knock out.

You lose a great deal of firepower firing a single Lascannon to knock out a tank. The lasguns do nothing.

Heavy Bolters, however, rarely suffer from this.


There's a hint of Khador in them.

No, the Vostroyan models look good.

TheOneWithNoName
22-04-2006, 02:09
The lasguns do nothing.

Welcome to the Imperial Guard.

cerealkiller195
22-04-2006, 08:43
... why do people think that putting a lascannon is wasting the lasgun shots? no there are more bodies to absorb the casualties BEFORE the lascannon is killed., and i ts cheaper.

Axel
22-04-2006, 09:17
If I remember correct, heavy weapon teams could be positioned seperately with the old City Fight rules. So heavy weapon teams could be great to put plenty of lanes of fire on streets or from higher buildings, while tanks may come into cc faster then usual in CoD.
Lets wait for the actual rules...

Aquilla
22-04-2006, 10:28
That may change Axel.

I'm interested to see how their vechicles look.

Falkman
22-04-2006, 11:45
Except using Die hards instead of Heavy weapon platoons, thatīs what Iīm going to use for my Vostroyans, so I was pretty close with my guess then :)

Ironhand
22-04-2006, 12:14
Exactly so, Cerealkiller195. I usually put Lascannons in my Veteran squads to take advantage of BS4, and in one or two of my troops squads. Most of my troops squads have autocannon, and my platoon HQ all have Heavy Bolters. My Company HQ has a mortar, since I don't plan on it being in line of sight.

cerealkiller195
22-04-2006, 14:52
good thinkin Ironhand. I usually put either heavy bolter or a mortar when i was doing a guard build. One being cheap enough and non armor penetrating that most people either ignore or don't put it top priority. The mortar looks like its going to be a good addition, hell even a heavy weapons squad of mortars seems like the most logical one in city fight.

NakedFisherman
22-04-2006, 15:00
... why do people think that putting a lascannon is wasting the lasgun shots? no there are more bodies to absorb the casualties BEFORE the lascannon is killed., and i ts cheaper.

It's cheaper because of the amount of firepower lost by firing 10 guys at the same target and only one having a 50% chance or less of actually doing anything.

Kensai X
23-04-2006, 06:26
- Special Weapons Squads
- Heavy Weapons Platoons
- Carapace Armor
- Sharpshooters
- Hardened Fighters

While, I know that alot of those doctrines seem rather pointless for standard Guard army, but the way I see it Vostoyans are to cityfight as Catachans are to Jungle Fighitng... Their doctrines almmost perfect for city-fighting.

Using the old cityfight as an example, Heavy Weapons platoons are great because you can now split them up into teams of two and create fire lanes absolutely everywhere and still have guns to spare...

But X, what about my tanks, where am I gonna put them... I can already here some of you moan... Well, honestly tanks I think tanks blow in cityfight so anyways moving on...

Caraopace and Hardened Fighters generally sounds like a waste of points, but in cityfight they really shine. Especially carapace, now many players think that in cityfight camo-cloaks are better, becasue they increase the cover save on a map that has a lot of cover. I realise this because I've played a cloak army for 10 monthes now, but carapace is actually better because in cityfight you'll face the mass bolters and flamers for space marines, which you wouldn't get save from using cloaks, but you will using carapace thus against most shooting you can utilized both a 5+ cover save or better and a 4+ armor save... Plus combined with Hardened fighters all those troops that used to hit you on a 3+ now hit on a 4+ and you have a one up on those Ws 3 troops. Furthermore, if the enemy assualts you in cover you'll have I 10 unless they packed frag grenades... Quite the resilient buggers now aren't they combined with that fact that you tecnically have 7 squads of 5 for a SINGLE troop slot of these guys means you can really slow down the enemy by clogging dead corpses in their way...

Finally these doctrines are supported by your special weapons teams which supply extra flame throwers for cheap, demo charges, and snipers which are MUCH better in cityfight and will probably improve with the release of CoD.

Now, the only weak point in these doctrines comes from sharpshooters a skill I feel is only useful for my heavy weapons teams, but for city fight I'd much rather perfect Hardened Veterans, because it's hard for me to imagine a cityfight without shotgun wielding veterans running around...

But to conclude Vostroyans are certainly built for this upcoming cityfight dex...

Ironhand
23-04-2006, 12:55
@cerealkiller195
Yep - mortars may be very useful in urban fighting.

@Kensai X
I pretty much agree with you. Most vehicles (Vindicator and Demolisher excepted) are pretty much useless in urban combat.

As far as splitting up the Heavy Weapons teams, we'll have to see what the new Codex says, but regardless I do think that in an urban environment Heavy Weapons platoons will be useful.

swamp_slug
23-04-2006, 21:57
Most heavy tanks are useless in urban combat yes, but that is why the Guard have sentinels and hellhounds.