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boli
22-12-2011, 10:55
I've spent a lot of time recently on my skaven researching and building my skaven horde up to what I think is a competative collection of troops with which to choose a decent army from.


40 Stormvermin
40 Stormvermin
60 Plague Monks

35 Clanrats w. H/W + Shield
35 Clanrats w. H/W + Shield
35 Clanrats w. H/W + Shield
50 Clanrats w. Spear

Poison Wind Mortor
Poison Wind Mortor
Warpfire Thrower
Warpfire Thrower
Doomflayer

50 Slaves
50 Slaves

Warp Lighting Cannon
Plague Furnace + plague Priest

5 Giant Rats w. Handler
5 Giant Rats w. Handler
8 Rat Ogres, 4 handlers
37 Giant rats w. Handlers

1 Grey Seer on foot
1 warlock on foot
2 Warlords/chiefton on foot
1 Battle Standard bearer on foot

Deathmaster Snitch
vermin Lord

Obviously it is not finished and down the line I'll after getting

* HPA
* Doomwheel
* 20 Night Runners
* 8 Plague Censor bearers

...and maybe even 3/6 Jezzails for fun although the cost in game as well as on models is holding me back on what would mainly be a fluff purcahse.


Anyways I've spent so much time reserching and planning my skaven force I'm at a sudden disadvantage when it comes to my other two armies. I collected a small wood elf force in the mid 90s and recently I've kind of randomly bought High Elves and woodelves when I saw a good deal on ebay so my g/f will have her own army to face my skaven (thus trying to get her into the hobby :P).

Unfortunally this is my collection so far:


14 Phoenix Guard
20 Archers
20 Spearmen
10 Sea Guard
10 Swordmasters
8 Silverhelms
7 Ellyrian Reavers
1 Repeater Bolt Thrower

Mage on foot
Battle Standard Bearer on foot
Lord on foot
Lord on Horseback
Lord on Griffon
Dragon w. Mage/lord model

6 Wardancer
11 Glade Guard
4 Waywatchers
1 Treeman
4 Dryads
5 Warhawks
1 Great Eagle

Lord on Great Eagle
Lord on Forest Dragon

As you can see thery are at a disadvantage from the start in choosing a solid enough army to defend against what will seem an unstopable tide of ratmen. Even though I am not clued up on either elf army all the individual units see, tiny in comparison... I mean can a unit of 10 swordsmasters however good they are defeat a unit 35 clanrats in a straight frontal charge?

Well I checked on that and it'll be 3.83 wounds on the skaven to 0.50 wounds on the HE... so it *is* possible although it will take half of the game. Either way every encounter will look like a hard slog.


ok that's all the background stuff out the way; time into the nitty gritty of things:

Spearmen

What's the ideal unit size for spearmen; 20 seems to be a smart number for the extra fighting rank bonuses so all ranks can fight or is it worth it trying to expand this for a full 50 horde formation?

perhaps more importantly are spearmen used effectively (particually against skaven) or are they simply a nessercary evil to bunker a mage in?.

Sea Guard

Looking at the stats/price are they simply more expensive versions of both spearmen/archers or do they actually have a worthwhile function in an army? The only thing I can think of them being useful in is they can stand and shoot the first round of combat if they are charged (before swapping to spears and extra ranks in subsequent rounds) but is that worth the increases cost?

Perhaps more worrying is since these came from the IoB set is 10 just a stupidly small number to have them in or am I stuck in the skaven mentality but if I were to use a unit in the army.. perhaps more for fluff/variance but also so I don't just dump the models on the shelf never to be used what sort of numbers are best for a seaguard unit?

Archers

Since I will be using an allied force of HE/WE is it worth expanding my wood elf archers or my high elf ones; S4 hits at close range sounds great but so does ASF (possible re-rollable hits) and the cheaper cost; numbers wise it seems to favour the HEs unless I'm missing somethgin with the WEs

General unit sizes

I have a lot of very small units obviously I come from a skaven background as of late so I consider anything under 40 to be small but does 14 phoenix guard or 10 swordmasters relaly make a difference on the battlefield?

Any and all suggestions would be appriciated on how to expand my elves in order to combat my ever growing numbers of skaven. What to concentrate on; any "must have" purchases and more importantly the best ideal for unit sizes as I'm considering mine are too small :/

GotrekFan
22-12-2011, 11:46
First off, that's a lot of rats so well done there.
Secondly, I think your maths is a little off as 10 masters should be able to kill 16.7 clan rats (assuming they have a parry save) while suffering about 2.6 in return. Also assuming champs, no characters, elves are 5wide and rats are horde.

Spearman and s.guard can attack 4deep so I like to run 35 with 7 to the front.

I think the special infantry really need to be at least 15 strong as return attacks, magic and shooting will take their toll really fast and small units are really easy to wipe with the 13th spell. I generally run 28 masters while one of my buddies plays horde lions in s unit of 30.

Invest in at least 2 eagles to march block, redirect charges/ overruns and generally annoy.

Quinzy
22-12-2011, 12:12
There's nothing stopping you using your Sea Guard in with your spearmen. Might add some variety if you don't want to use them as actual Sea Guard.

warplock
22-12-2011, 12:19
"can a unit of 10 swordsmasters however good they are defeat a unit 35 clanrats in a straight frontal charge?

Well I checked on that and it'll be 3.83 wounds on the skaven to 0.50 wounds on the HE... so it *is* possible although it will take half of the game. Either way every encounter will look like a hard slog"

10 Swordmasters kill 9.4 clanrats per turn, and suffer 1.8 casualties, assuming each unit has a champion (most units do) and both units are 5 wide (you'd never horde 35 clanrats). Each turn they are killing less rats while the Skaven's damage output stays consistent for the first few rounds. Still, if both units are left alone to fight and the rats don't break, on average the Swordmasters should finish the clanrats off in the 4th round of combat, with about 3 Swordmasters surviving. So, they mop them up in two turns, and are then free to start flanking other skaven units and helping to eat away at their SCR (for example, 3 swordmasters in the flank of some slaves kill about 5 slaves per round and only take 0.55 casualties per round, so they're quite likely to munch through a fair bit of the unit. With a bit of luck, they'll take out 20 slaves before you know it).

dementian
22-12-2011, 15:08
Why are you using all of your skaven against her?

Why not see how much WE or HE you have got. Let her pick which one she wants to play. Make her up a little army and then match her points with your skaven.

Or let her play the Skaven, cause ideally you want her to win right?

boli
22-12-2011, 15:43
Why are you using all of your skaven against her?

Why not see how much WE or HE you have got. Let her pick which one she wants to play. Make her up a little army and then match her points with your skaven.

Or let her play the Skaven, cause ideally you want her to win right?

I'm not going to use them *all* I'm just showing that I have these and a reasonable army list can be used out of what I have. e.g. I could prob make up a 1,000-3,000point army right now and I have plans to "round this out" to give it better flexibility in choices.

Unfortunally the same canot be said for my elves which even allied together as one army seem to lack several things; and lack the same ability to round out and offer a selection where upon an informed army choice can be made.

As it stands right now if she were to control the allied HE/WE force there will be like a dozen MSU each with its own rules and unknown tactics which is *not* going to endear her to the game. Likewise neither are smelly disgusting rats (she doesn't like the look of my skaven, but *does* like the appearance of the elves).

So I need help in deciding which units to fill out; and to what numbers... with suggestions on decent choices to take which would make it easier for her to defeat my skaven army.

The idea is hopefully I only need a few boxes to round out my HE/WE force so she would not feel as if she is fighting a loosing battle from the start.

russellmoo
22-12-2011, 18:33
I would start out playing lower pts-

Your restrictions-

No rares
No furnace
No doomrocket
No gutter runners

Her army-

High elves-

28 Sea guard (use the 10 sg's and fill in the rest with spearmen)

14 Pheonix guard (mage lord goes here)

10 archers x 2

10 swordmasters

9 silver helms/w character on horse- (use an ellyrian reaver to get the extra model)

Mage lord

Great eagle

Repeat bolt thrower

Not sure what the points come to but this should be a reasonably good army (a bit of a gunline but I think they are a little easier to play with when first learning)- you can then proceed to increase the number of HE if she's still interested, and it should make for a pretty good battle-

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
23-12-2011, 06:31
From what you've posted of your HE collection you have roughly 1200 pts. in troops without upgrades or characters. If you're GF is interested in HE I recommend starting off playing at small point values to get her use to the game as some of the posters already recommended.

1500 pts. would probably be ideal starting place since it would allow for just about anything in your collection. my suggestion for a HE list to use:

3rd. Lvl. Mage with the immortal mage setup (Folariath’s Robe, Talisman of Saphery, & Silver Wand): 325 pts.
Mounted BSB: Great weapon, dragon armor, & barded elven steed (Guardian Phoenix & Helm of Fortune): 190 pts.
15 Archers w/ Musician: 170 pts.
20 Spearmen with full command: 205 pts.
14 Phoenix Guard with full command with Gleaming Pendant: 245 pts.
10 Swordmasters: 150 pts.
5 Silver Helms with shields: 115 pts.
RBT: 100 pts.

Total: 1500 pts.

This list should give her a feel for how to use the army. The BSB should be fielded with Silver Helm Bus while the Archmage should go with either the Archers or the Phoenix Guard. Be sure to let her know what each unit's strength and weaknesses are and how best to use them during gameplay.

As for what you should field against her I try to match it up with a similar list but with the following exceptions:

No Scouts
No Mulitple pieces of artillery (you should limit it to one only and it shouldn't be the Warp Lightning cannon)
Limit to one regiment of Rat Ogres (5+ Handler)
No Special Characters

As you have numbers + experience I think it's best you try to make this as challanging as possible for you to try and take on her force and win than to force her to try to win with an untested army and very little knowledge of the game. Just my 2 cents. :angel:

boli
23-12-2011, 08:02
Thanks that's just the sort of advice I was after... what about future expansions of my allied elf force? Obviously it would be her decision in the end depending what she likes using/likes the look of but I can offer her some suggestions

More spears/archers (going for core) or expanding one of my other regiments (eg phoenix guard/swordmasters) or something else entirely.

Dreadlordpaul
23-12-2011, 08:07
I would say expand the spears archers phoenix guard and sword masters

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
24-12-2011, 07:22
Thanks that's just the sort of advice I was after... what about future expansions of my allied elf force? Obviously it would be her decision in the end depending what she likes using/likes the look of but I can offer her some suggestions

More spears/archers (going for core) or expanding one of my other regiments (eg phoenix guard/swordmasters) or something else entirely.

For HE core I prefer Archers over Spears or LSG but it going to depend on whether your GF like shooting or close combat more. ;)

I would definitely increase the number of Swordmasters & Phoenix Guard to 20, invest in a unit of White Lions (20 to 30 as IMO they are the best choice to use out of the special units), 10 Dragon Princes, 10 Shadow Warriors, another RBT, & 2 or more Great Eagles.

This what you essentially need to build a good HE army from.

For Wood Elves I own a small contigent as well but I haven't field them yet but from what I've seen of wood elves army builds Glade Guard Archers backed up by Treekin with a Lvl.4 wizard seems to be the order of the day. What other troop choices you'll need I'll leave that up to more experienced wood elf players for additional advice.

-Totenkopf-
30-12-2011, 18:24
10 wardancers should be able to fend off 35 clanrats, if not hold them up for several turns. Woodelves are an underrated force, they require much more specialized tactics and "strategery"
High elves are plug and play... They are an extremely easy army to pick up and start racking up wins with. Sit and shoot, then have swordmasters and other specials make mince meat of whatever is left.

The elf models you have are fine.. Just fatten up the units a bit..

I disagree heavily on the points values for her first games... 500pts!! seriously. The games are fun, fast and the elves can be competitive at that level.. Wizard, unit or two of archers and 10 swordmasters.. 500 pts... Start low and work your way up. Some local shops even run excalation campaigns which are lots of fun and ideal for beginners to get in some games and see a variety of opponents..