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View Full Version : How to Daemon nowadays? Troops vs Greater Daemon



Kalandros
29-12-2011, 03:40
So, a GUO or Keeper, they're fun, they're awesome, their magic is incredible.

But is more bodies more powerful, useful and ultimately, better?

A GD (except the BT of course) lets you have access to a Lv4 Wizard, which (ignoring the Daemon Prince) you cannot get otherwise.
A GD lets you have LD9 General, for instability tests, not a huge advantage but hey, its still something
A GD lets you take even more Gifts to the battle, stuff like Siren Song, Nurgling Infestation, etc
One of the best counters to big things is the Balesword for the GUO


So what do you think is the most competitive -

Max out heroes (which isn't much really since Heralds are so expensive) and go all out on core & rare and maybe some Hounds

Go for a Greater Daemon which makes your army quite smaller

I'm at an impass at what I want to do.
I can always use my GD models as big unit fillers in a horde, if I go for troops instead of Lord, but I always love to field a nasty Keeper or GUO D:

sulla
29-12-2011, 04:37
Troops (well, bloodletters) are more powerful.

Greater Daemons are cooler.

At least that's how I look at it. I could make a more powerful army by replacing my Great unclean one with another huge unit of bloodletters, and some flamers, but I like the big guy. Besides, it's not like daemons are such a weak army that I have to take only the optimal units...

-Totenkopf-
29-12-2011, 06:16
Troops and heralds... Skulltaker is the bomb, masque of slaanesh with some fiends is just scary..
Pimped out GD Awesomeness... Do it all..

People have been hating on Daemons.. I think they are great in 8th..

Kalandros
31-12-2011, 01:32
in 7th they were pure filth, now they're still toward the top but much more in line.
However Masque & Skulltaker are banned at the tournament I plan on attending in 2 months - else I would've taken a LD Bomb list ;D

I've just finished assembling my FW Keeper but might end up using it as a Daemonettes Filler haha. Impressive daemonette unit though! (with 6th ed sexynettes).

The other big limitation is on rares - 625 pts (for 2500 pts lists) at most is really tight. I figure 6 Fiends + 5 Flamers since I have models available.

Now then, I still have to figure out what to do about Magic

A GUO upgraded to LV3~4 is limited on gifts, Balesword being the #1 choice so Lv 3 at most, Lv2 otherwise.
A Keeper can more easily take LV4 + good gifts (Song, Allure, Blade) but then its quite expensive.

But if I go for no GD at all, I'm looking at a single Lv2 Tzeentch Herald as I can't afford 2 due to needing Heralds of Slaanesh & Khorne for Letters & Nettes.

I'm not sure its quite safe to go for just one lv 2 wizard - would it be a bit safer with the Sundering banner? But I would much prefer taking the Despair banner of course O:

So many hard decisions when playing below 3k!

tmarichards
31-12-2011, 02:20
In some match-ups, if your opponent is not prepared for it a Bloodthirster can simply roll over entire armies on it's own.

However, it does swing a lot of match-ups the other way- for example, O&G go from a bad match-up to a terrible match-up (a greater daemon will likely survive 2 turns max after 2 doom divers, 2 rock lobbers, 2 pump wagons and 2 manglers go after it), as do Ogres, Empire, Dwarfs and anyone with Mindrazor.

Overall, I think the herald list is better rounded- it doesn't have the same LOL I auto-win factor that a GD can add, but it also doesn't suffer have any really bad match-ups.

With regards to the 2 you mentioned- I think the GUO needs to be kitted out to survive more than anything else, as that plays to it's strenghts. A Kipper is really really nice with Spirit Swallower, it makes it very hard to bring down indeed, and you can still get Siren Song on a herald.

Kalandros
31-12-2011, 04:06
I was thinking GUO with Balesword and Stream of Bile - pure destruction potential - the ultimate counter to Steam Tank (automatically destroys it if it makes base contact - 4 autohits which autowounds at S8 (flail) and deal d6 wounds each after a 6+ armor save.
Also quite powerful against any other monsters or rides

That GUO plus a Life tzeentch herald should be quite durable, shouldn't it? Level 1 on the GUO automatically, Lv 2 still allows for 100 pts of gifts, Lv 3 allows for the balesword but no Stream of bile (which is quite ace against units). (still going on the 2500 pts level)

A shadow Tzeentch herald is also tempting to FLY the GUO around... (: can't swap him though since he's Monster and Herald is Infantry - else it'd be oh so sweet. But yeah, 2 Tz herald is pushing it.

Arijharn
01-01-2012, 07:26
How do you auto-hit a Steam Tank? Don't you still need to roll to hit against the Tank Commander?

Kalandros
01-01-2012, 07:28
How do you auto-hit a Steam Tank? Don't you still need to roll to hit against the Tank Commander?

You never did, at least not since 7th edition, the Steam Tank has pretty clear rules that it is automatically hit in close combat. (Also it would be fairly ridiculous to even think the commander would have the abiliity to avoid attacks with his tank...)

Oseru
01-01-2012, 07:41
Lots of bodys and a couple HoT's toting shadow and life has never failed me.

Arijharn
01-01-2012, 08:00
You never did, at least not since 7th edition, the Steam Tank has pretty clear rules that it is automatically hit in close combat. (Also it would be fairly ridiculous to even think the commander would have the abiliity to avoid attacks with his tank...)

True enough. I don't know it's rules but I do know via the errata that the Tank Commander has a WS at least.

Kalandros
01-01-2012, 15:46
Lots of bodys and a couple HoT's toting shadow and life has never failed me.

I've been toying with the idea of Lore of Beasts actually.

Also I pondered Lore of Fire a bit for the gimmick of "Flame cage a Horde of T3 models and then Siren Song them to their death" should wipe over 50% of a spearelf horde.. (:

brother_maynard
01-01-2012, 21:44
Lots of bodys and a couple HoT's toting shadow and life has never failed me.

Why the life herald? He doesn't really bring anything to the table that the shadow herald doesn't or another lore wouldn't do better.

Arijharn
02-01-2012, 02:47
You mean, other than resurrecting the dead and topping up characters?

w3rm
02-01-2012, 03:26
Yeah Regrowthing hounds is just pure filith :D

Life + Shadow is deff the way to go, life is only good IMO if you can take loremaster.

For the real thread question: both can be useful, daemons are so good either way will net you some wins.

brother_maynard
02-01-2012, 03:57
You mean, other than resurrecting the dead and topping up characters?

You only get D3+ 1 models back if your opponent has any sense and stops ToV. and if you factor in ToV, you get better protection out of light and shadow magic anyway. And lifebloom is ok but means your GD has to be within 12 of your herald which is pretty restrictive on flying or M10 models. And the GUO doesn't need it. Not to mention both those lores require a lot of dice due to the high casting values, its always a waste of hero allotment imo.

sulla
02-01-2012, 05:28
I take a life herald primarily for flesh to stone. I'd rather buff a unit's toughness than reduce an enemy's strength/toughness. The punch of my army comes from a bloodletter horde and a slightly suboptimal (but very cool looking) 6 bloodcrusher unit. Neither needs extra strength but the extra toughness really helps. Even unboosted, t+2 is better than what wyssan's or lore of shadow can do for protection.

Also, my GUO is not the standard balesword guy. He relies on trappings and bouncing wounds back on opposition. Regaining wounds makes him the ultimate tank.

So life works better for my build. Might not for others, but it's absolutely perfect for these guys.

w3rm
02-01-2012, 20:03
Shadow should always be taken if you can, it's just CRAZY versatile. Light or Life should be your second option, both work rather well, m 8 bloodletters w/ asf and a 3d6 inch charge will scare the crap out of most people, you will defiantly get a second turn charge.

Pha's protection is very easy to cast, and ws 10 i10 suddenly makes you get hit on 6's when you couple them together. Throw any unit at the enemy deathstar and drop a light of battle on them. Suddenly that deathstar got held up for longer then they thought they would.

Banishment is good at dropping those pesky eagles and harassment units. The signiture spell can be pretty awesome too.

Arijharn
03-01-2012, 02:10
You only get D3+ 1 models back if your opponent has any sense and stops ToV. and if you factor in ToV, you get better protection out of light and shadow magic anyway. And lifebloom is ok but means your GD has to be within 12 of your herald which is pretty restrictive on flying or M10 models. And the GUO doesn't need it. Not to mention both those lores require a lot of dice due to the high casting values, its always a waste of hero allotment imo.

True, but sometimes he has bigger things to fry (or think he has bigger fish to fry) than devoting dice to ToV and D3+1 models back is, after all, numerically superior than 0 models back.

Flesh to Stone only really bites you in the ass I suppose if you happen to play a Skaven with a Screaming Bell.

Oseru
04-01-2012, 23:39
Hordes are a nightmare and Daemons ALWAYS lose attrition fights. Dwellers helps fix that :D
Flesh to stone on Bloodletters wins games.
Sheild of thorns just pees in the face of those Elite ASF elves.
Resurrection is great on your high value models ie Dogs, Crushers, Fiends, and most importantly FLAMERS.
Do i need to say anything for the value of thrones with any of these spells.
The d6 direct damage thing sucks
Regen spell is only useful with throne so largely meh, but +16% survival rate is good.

Shadow is ridiculously versatile but has the downfall of too many remains in play spells. Life is the best backup in my opinion.

tmarichards
04-01-2012, 23:53
I'd go with Shadow, just because Mindrazored Daemonettes tend not to end up in protracted combats...

brother_maynard
05-01-2012, 01:09
Hordes are a nightmare and Daemons ALWAYS lose attrition fights. Dwellers helps fix that :D
Flesh to stone on Bloodletters wins games.
Sheild of thorns just pees in the face of those Elite ASF elves.
Resurrection is great on your high value models ie Dogs, Crushers, Fiends, and most importantly FLAMERS.
Do i need to say anything for the value of thrones with any of these spells.
The d6 direct damage thing sucks
Regen spell is only useful with throne so largely meh, but +16% survival rate is good.

its throne that kills it in my opinion. all the spells are awesome with it (which is why any opponent with half a brain stops it) and they're all overcosted without it.

earthblood- useless without throne, hugely overcosted protection spell with it.

Awakening of the wood- overcosted fireball with shorter range. Opponent will be likely to keep good targets (redirectors) out of the woods if you have this spell, pretty useless.

Flesh to stone- great buff, the one good spell of the lore. However, other lores' defensive spells provide nearly the same protection but offer other advantages as well (pha's protection, speed of light, enfeebling foe). It needs throne to really be a great spell.

Throne- hinge of the entire lore which goes from great to mediocre if you stop this spell

Shield- vastly overpriced and useless without throne. It will net you 2-3 more kills vs T3 foes. Other lores have much better spells for a 9+ to cast.

Regrowth- hugely overcosted on 12 pt models, its only worth the high casting value if you're resurrecting crushers and flamers, which will make it a high dispel priority. Once again depends on throne to be worth the casting cost. Minimum of 4 dice is not worth 2 flamers imo.

Dwellers- useful for character snipes but the short range means it will almost always be cast on the higher value. Other lores' mass destruction spells will usually net more kills st much reduced cost, especially against S4+ foes.

My experience has shown that for these high casting values and the requirement to have throne up, life is a generally weak performing lore on a level 2. There is much more mileage to be gained from other lores.

tmarichards
05-01-2012, 01:13
I think Light magic is also often underlooked on Daemons, Timewarped Bloodletters are obscene

brother_maynard
05-01-2012, 01:48
I think Light magic is also often underlooked on Daemons, Timewarped Bloodletters are obscene

Indeed, that is part of the reason that I feel you just can't justify the casting value for regrowth.

Arijharn
05-01-2012, 02:53
Light is bad ass on all Daemons. It's why its my favourite lore, especially since it has answers to pretty much every battlefield condition I feel. Need to stop War Machines? Net, need quicker pace? Birona's. Feel like a bit of a laugh? Birona's and Speed on Flamers... seriously, this turns Flamers from a liability into a face melting unit of savagery. Banishment works well on a lot of things too imo, the ability to re-roll successful ward saves is very handy.

Also; I get a bit of a perverse joy in using Light with my Daemons on the so called 'good' guys too.

w3rm
05-01-2012, 02:58
Earthblood sucks on daemons in fact its actually useless as you can only cast it on the herald or his unit... which will have a 4+ ward save already.