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View Full Version : Regarding the Tyranid second wave, or lack thereof.



Vampiric16
08-01-2012, 13:24
As a long time Tyranid player, I can't help but feel disappointed at how their recent edition was handled. GW released what I felt to be an unfinished product, that had not yet been fully play-tested. In fact, looking through the ranged weapon list, I'm fairly certain the codex was not tested at all (considering some weapons do exactly the same thing, and others have no purpose whatsover).
I was particularly sad, because the release of the previous edition 'nids was excellent. What I liked most was the article in White Dwarf explaining the hows and whys of the model and rules development. It was clear that time and effort had been put into the release. With this edition, I felt it was a case of getting it out asap and then moving on to the next project.

However, there comes a point where you have to get on with it and work with what you've got. I managed that fairly quickly, as I don't play in a competitive environment, and the stuff I normally field remained by and large playable. Plus, the new models were pretty cool (plastic gargoyles are worth their weight in gold after those metals), and I had the second wave to look forward to. Or so I thought.
By all accounts, there isn't one, and won't be for a very long time. Apparently this is due to the poor performance of the codex, and GW won't bother making models for a codex that people have lost interest in. On the other hand, DE got an amazing codex, and thus have had their second wave already.
My point is, if the above is true, why should we suffer for GW's mistake? They released the codex, and now they won't support it with the models (I counted about 10 units including special characters that need models). I feel they should have seen it through. The big selling point in the months leading to the release was 'there's going to be new monstrous creatures, some even bigger than the Carnifex!'. 4 of those (Spore, Harpy, T-fex and Tervigon) still don't have models/
As a result, it's bitten GW in the backside. Money that would otherwise have been spent on their stuff is instead going to others, the obvious one being Chapterhouse Studios.

What are other people's views on this?
Cheers for hearing me out.

Scammel
08-01-2012, 13:30
Apparently this is due to the poor performance of the codex, and GW won't bother making models for a codex that people have lost interest in.

I wouldn't be inclined to believe anyone whatsoever over why GW have or haven't released something, it's all guesswork and GW doesn't seem to operate by a logic we can think of (not to say that there isn't a logic). Many would have judged Beastmen to have been a similar failure of a book (and we don't know whether either really were 'failures') and they've still gotten a second wave of large, extremely poor in-game models. It could be over the whole CHS thing, it could be because the stars haven't correctly aligned, we don't know.

Reinholt
08-01-2012, 13:40
If GW is going to do the correct thing for once, it would be because they are re-writing the atrocity of a codex that is slaughtering their tyranid sales.

I know that if I were still a shareholder, I would be irate about this; not that they made the mistake they made with that codex (that's fine, mistakes happen, nobody is perfect), but that when it was clear just how poorly it was received and how crap the rules were, it wasn't immediately revised to bring up to an acceptable standard of gaming. GW may not like the fact that solid rules and playable armies drive model sales, but they do.

The current tyranid book is an embarrassment for GW. It's genuinely a sub-par product and anytime GW sells one or anyone who works for them sells one, they should be ashamed of themselves. Don't support it. Fix it.

scarletsquig
08-01-2012, 13:50
The second wave got eaten by squats.

Alternatively, there's a lot of people saying that the Chapterhouse lawsuit has forced GW to cancel the release of the models they had sculpted and ready. I have no idea about the legal specifics as to why that might happen though.

Vampiric16
08-01-2012, 14:48
Scammel: Like I said, I'm going by what I've heard. There could well be a good reason, but if there is one, GW arent saying. In fact, I'd have a lot of respect for them if they gave a reason for lack of second wave.

As for CHS, I think it's a tad cheeky of them to use the GW names. However, it's GW's fault for leaving these massive gaps in their range.

MarcoSkoll
08-01-2012, 15:03
The story about the CHS lawsuit (based on what I have picked up from podcasts and blogs) seems to be that producing artwork does not secure the copyright for any miniature of the same design.
In essence, as CHS has released their miniatures first, the suggestion is that THEY hold the copyright on the model design, and GW releasing those models would now be a breach of CHS' copyright.

Hence, all those things for which there isn't a model, but which someone else has done a version of... it would seem those may well be off limits to GW unless they want to either risk legal action themselves or buy the copyrights back.

This is supposed to be the reason why we have seen FAR quicker second waves recently than we did in previous years, so as to not have to put out things all at once, but to get them all out before anyone else can get a wedge in the gap.

The OP's example of Dark Eldar was a matter of weeks between waves - and that's so fast that popularity can't have factored in it, as there simply wouldn't have been the time to assess sales, then make the decision to put extra stuff into production. Weeks means that stuff was sitting in storerooms before the DE were even announced.
(Heck, it appeared in WDs that, due to lead time, would have already been off to the printers by then.)

So, no, Vampiric16, you've heard wrong. It's almost certainly legal stuff, not popularity. And ultimately, the legal stuff may mean that the only option for these models is the other manufacturers who beat GW to it.

nedius
08-01-2012, 15:49
The story about the CHS lawsuit (based on what I have picked up from podcasts and blogs) seems to be that producing artwork does not secure the copyright for any miniature of the same design.
In essence, as CHS has released their miniatures first, the suggestion is that THEY hold the copyright on the model design, and GW releasing those models would now be a breach of CHS' copyright.

Hence, all those things for which there isn't a model, but which someone else has done a version of... it would seem those may well be off limits to GW unless they want to either risk legal action themselves or buy the copyrights back.

This is supposed to be the reason why we have seen FAR quicker second waves recently than we did in previous years, so as to not have to put out things all at once, but to get them all out before anyone else can get a wedge in the gap.

The OP's example of Dark Eldar was a matter of weeks between waves - and that's so fast that popularity can't have factored in it, as there simply wouldn't have been the time to assess sales, then make the decision to put extra stuff into production. Weeks means that stuff was sitting in storerooms before the DE were even announced.
(Heck, it appeared in WDs that, due to lead time, would have already been off to the printers by then.)

So, no, Vampiric16, you've heard wrong. It's almost certainly legal stuff, not popularity. And ultimately, the legal stuff may mean that the only option for these models is the other manufacturers who beat GW to it.


The thing is, there was a LONG gap between the nid release and many of the nid alternatives coming out.

To be honest, I think that DE may well be an example of a 'lesson learnt'. Their waves came out in quick succession, leaving little time for other companies to identify popular gaps in the range and plug them with alternatives. Anything that come out for DE now are likely to be an alternative to the GW model, rather than THE model available.

Rumors I have seen put the next nid release in 2014, so they are far from rushing to put things right. I get the impression that they're washing their hands of 'nids atm. They made too many mistakes - poor codex design (not totally poor army - I've seen enough nid vicotires to know they are playable), poor model releases = poor sales and legal problems. I suspect this edition will become a flash in the pan - that the next codex will be quite different. I'd not be suprised to see the Tervigon dropped entirely to spite Chapter House et al, and a differnet unit (like the malefactor) put in it's place. Even spore pods could be replaced with brood nests or something like that.

Necrons may well be a proof - if they get their follow up waves as promptly as DE, we can infer that they are really making an effort to not repeat the mistakes made with nids.

Art Is Resistance
08-01-2012, 16:09
So because GHS decided to be opportunistic pirates, with poorly sculpted knock offs, the chances of seeing the 'official' versions is nil?

Cheers CHs - you've nerved one of my armies.

snake-eyez
08-01-2012, 17:04
CHS doesn't have a tervigon model though, its just conversion bits to change a carnifex into a tervigon. As for those legal claims about CHS getting in first, I'd find it hard to believe that they can make something out of a codex and then say that GW cant release it.

I don't know, and I cant be bothered reading all of those two huge threads about CHS and GW fighting it out, I just hope nids at least get a tervigon model soon, and a new codex not long after that.

Reinholt
08-01-2012, 17:11
From a legal perspective, there is no way CHS could have and hold a copyright on GW models; there are at least plausible (though extremely unlikely) corner cases where they might have a momentary copyright on a very niche execution of something, but it would be short lived at best and a huge liability for CHS at worst.

As much as people (who are not lawyers) like to speculate about the CHS case, the reality is the whole Tyranid codex seemed like a rush job. The more likely argument (and backed up by fact from the GW folks I know) is that they were shoveled out the door to time with the BA release for space hulk, and thus a total hack job.

MarcoSkoll
08-01-2012, 18:03
True, I admit I am mostly repeating the condensed version, but the idea of art and miniatures copyright being separate doesn't seem a stretch in the slightest.

After all, there's a mess of models out there based off film and comic characters (companies with far bigger and scarier legal departments than GW) but which remain on the market unchallenged. True, most of these manufacturers use placeholder names, like Andrea Miniatures' "Virtual Fighter" (who bears strong resemblance to a Keanu Reeves character), but the big cheeses aren't going to be oblivious to them.

As it is, GW have certainly started acting in a more protective way - a rapid second wave, with any holes left after that not having artwork in the codex. (Sslyth and Medusae being prime examples.)

But, that said, if anyone actually wants to tell me I'm wrong in a more informative way than just telling me I'm not a lawyer (I know that), I would welcome the enlightenment.

IJW
08-01-2012, 18:59
Trademark, not copyright. As CHS bought a Tervigon to market before GW and GW hadn't registered the name, there's a chance that CHS effectively own the trademark now.

Copyright would apply to copies of a specific model.

Westside
08-01-2012, 19:27
Trademark, not copyright. As CHS bought a Tervigon to market before GW and GW hadn't registered the name, there's a chance that CHS effectively own the trademark now.

Copyright would apply to copies of a specific model.

Have you ever bothered to read the blanket legal claim to the contents of GW publications (it's always in the inside front cover)?

If you haven't, you probably have alot in common with Chapter House.

I'm sure GW recognizes the Tyranid codex as contributing to low model sales.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that the 3rd party IP infrigers 'creativity' has resulted in the quicker and more complete releases for subsquent Codex.

Since GW is more than likely re-writing the Tyranids, the 'second wave' probably won't happen. In addition, new Codex most likely won't feature most of the GW designs that have been infringed on by CHS. Not because GW couldn't produce models of their designs, but just to 'stick it' to CHS and CHS customers.

Spectrar Ghost
08-01-2012, 19:39
As has been discussed again and again vis a vis CHS, what GW claims it has legal standing on and what it actually has the paperwork to prove are very different things. The statements in their books and on the website are not legally binding.

Scammel
08-01-2012, 19:56
Since GW is more than likely re-writing the Tyranids

If you're referring to the possibility of them re-writing it at the moment, I can quite happily stake all my worldly and other-worldly possessions that they aren't. There's absolutely no precedent for it asides from an add-on for 6th ed Dark Elves in a WD around 10 years ago.


Not because GW couldn't produce models of their designs, but just to 'stick it' to CHS and CHS customers.


I'd not be suprised to see the Tervigon dropped entirely to spite Chapter House et al

GW cynicism is in fashion these days, but suggesting that simple malice plays a part in GW's release schedule is silly to say the least.

IJW
08-01-2012, 20:21
Have you ever bothered to read the blanket legal claim to the contents of GW publications (it's always in the inside front cover)?

I have as it happens. Unfortunately I know enough about trademark and copyright law to know that most of it is boilerplate and wrong boilerplate at that.

It's also under the stats summary on the back page in a lot of the more recent publications so I presume that you haven't looked recently yourself... ;)

de Selby
08-01-2012, 20:34
So because GHS decided to be opportunistic pirates, with poorly sculpted knock offs, the chances of seeing the 'official' versions is nil?

Cheers CHs - you've nerved one of my armies.

If GW's business model really was based on keeping their fingers crossed that no other company would (exercise a legal right to) make miniatures for use in their games, we should be thanking Chapterhouse for at least bothering to sculpt actual models and parts. They (or anyone else) could have 'released' a vaguely niddish blob of green stuff on a stick and really trolled all of us. Just consider all the other gaps in GW's range. Assuming for the sake of argument that this idea of 'first to model' really has legal force then GW was walking a tightrope and it could have gone much worse for them than tripping over a tiny third party manufacturer of tervigon add-ons.

Actually my guess is that there is no legal reason why GW can't release their own models (we're waiting for the court case to progress and determine if Chapterhouse actually does have a legal right to do what they've done: if GW's case is as bad as the above they should probably settle post haste and get on with filling their range as best they can).

IJW
08-01-2012, 20:59
It's basically the first person to sell something under a specific name, as long as nobody else has previously registered the name as a trademark.

Torga_DW
08-01-2012, 22:17
As usual, all we can do is speculate. But there is precedence in GW fixing a bad codex. If i recall correctly, they did that with the (6th edition?) dark elf army book, rereleasing it with player suggested fixes.

I'm sure theres a reason for what they're doing, and they have a plan. But unfortunately i don't have the first clue on the whats and whys. I guess time will tell.

iamfanboy
08-01-2012, 22:30
Which, as it happens, GW had not in relation to a Tervigon...

Korraz
08-01-2012, 22:41
As usual, all we can do is speculate. But there is precedence in GW fixing a bad codex. If i recall correctly, they did that with the (6th edition?) dark elf army book, rereleasing it with player suggested fixes.

I'm sure theres a reason for what they're doing, and they have a plan. But unfortunately i don't have the first clue on the whats and whys. I guess time will tell.

They also did it with the 3.0 -> 3.5 CSM book.
But those were different times, and GW was different too.

And the plan is "Shovel as much as possible into the pockets of the CEO, who is incidentally me, via bonuses and dividends which are incidentally greenlighted by the CEO, who is me, and then sell all my shares, get a golden handshake and then retire."

FabricatorGeneralMike
08-01-2012, 23:02
They also did it with the 3.0 -> 3.5 CSM book.
But those were different times, and GW was different too.

And the plan is "Shovel as much as possible into the pockets of the CEO, who is incidentally me, via bonuses and dividends which are incidentally greenlighted by the CEO, who is me, and then sell all my shares, get a golden handshake and then retire."


Yes Sir, I agree 100% with 'not padding Kirbys pockets anymore'. That was one of the main reasions why I choose not to buy GW products anymore.

BobtheInquisitor
10-01-2012, 05:22
The second wave got eaten by squats.


Sigged. (If you don't mind...?)

How much would it cost for GW to prepare a WD Codex for Tyranids? How much for a "get you by" pdf? I wonder if the costs are preventing them from attending the codex.

I've heard the Chapterhouse case and the legal questions surrounding it are the real reason GW is withholding the second wave, though I have no idea if that's true.

Korraz
10-01-2012, 13:09
The problem is: A fix would GW require to admit that there's something wrong with the current book.
And GW cannot do wrong.

The Chapterhouse Argument holds no water. Along the same line you could say that Blanche misplaced the keys to the warehouse where the stuff is stored. Even if they would be afraid of losing anything, it would be a matter of reprenting the Tyranid Codex with the Terrigon instead of the Tervigon, and release a Terrigon kit, and done.
The reason is most likely simply: Tyranids do not sell. The same thing was probably true for the Beastmen. They got their "second wave". Which tied in with an AddOn that allowed all other armies to use the models. The Beastmen Specific ones, the Special Characters? Still nowhere to be seen.
GW wants to make money. Thanks to the screwup Tyranids do not make money. Dark Eldar did, hence the blitz waves. Space Marines do. But GW can also do no wrong, so the 'Nids will be stuck with this mess for years to come.
I'm calling it now: In a year, two at most, from now, the 'Nids will be the new Orks/Dark Eldar/Necrons of 40k. Nobody plays them, no support, stuck with a bad book, always rumored to be squatted.

ihavetoomuchminis
10-01-2012, 13:35
The problem is: A fix would GW require to admit that there's something wrong with the current book.
And GW cannot do wrong.

.

This. 1000 times this.

GW never, i say NEVER, admits a mistake. No matter how big it is (finecast), they would never admit it. It's a retarded attitude, but it's theirs.

Scammel
10-01-2012, 15:09
GW never, i say NEVER, admits a mistake. No matter how big it is (finecast), they would never admit it. It's a retarded attitude, but it's theirs.

Have people been under rocks? Powerscroll and Ogre FAQ.

Apparently February will be taken up by the Tyranid wave.

Ravenous
10-01-2012, 15:20
It pretty much comes down to money.

Blood angels hit their 6 month sales quota in less then 3, as did Dark Eldar. Nids however at 6 months still never reached their 3 month quota. GW abandoned the second wave because it is a failure.

If they would just post an errata (synapse = eternal warrior) with some changes the sales would go up, but they only reserve erratas of game changing magnitude to marines, so meh.

Scammel
10-01-2012, 15:26
Apparently February will be taken up by the Tyranid wave.


GW abandoned the second wave because it is a failure.

Minimum characters.

hive fleet aphopis
14-01-2012, 13:57
From what ive heard the 2nd wave is next month and their next codex is in 2014.
Also their supposed to be getting something 'unexpected'. If thats coming out in the 2nd wave or 6th ed i dont know.

ArtificerArmour
14-01-2012, 15:33
Also their supposed to be getting something 'unexpected'. If thats coming out in the 2nd wave or 6th ed i dont know.

I think a second wave was unexpected. Pyrovore in finecast?

Alex_H
15-01-2012, 18:08
I don't know, but I expect the Pyrovore sold terribly in metal, and would sell even worse in Failcast.

Grimtuff
15-01-2012, 19:05
I don't know, but I expect the Pyrovore sold terribly in metal, and would sell even worse in Failcast.

Pyrovore is already in Failcast.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1160117a :shifty:

Angelwing
15-01-2012, 23:51
Oddly though, pyrovores don't turn up on ebay very much, and when they do, they go for very close to RRP.
I was surprised they got Finecasted before some other tyranid models though.

IJW
16-01-2012, 07:56
They're big and heavy and the model itself is lovely. A perfect candidate for Finecast over metal from the point of view of materials costs.