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Blacktao
08-01-2012, 19:14
Ok guys I need your help,

last night I played against a DE player with my Dwarfs, for 3000 pts.

I took my Runelord on anvil.

The DE have a special dude, named Shadowblade. He's an assasin.
A special one. Like most of you know assasins pop out of the enemy units when they come in combat, but Shadowblade can also be put into my units (incl warmachines).

And he was in my Runelord with anvil, but in the Dwarf Rulebook there is writen and i quote: " No other characters may join the Anvil crew" ( I saw this after the battle :shifty: ).

Because of this my Runelord was killed and the battle was pretty much over.

Now I need you guys to say who is right:
- My book that no one may join my anvil model (there isn't even place for Shadowblade)
- Or the DE player, so his/her Shadowblade may be put in my anvil model

Thanks in advance

Black

The Low King
08-01-2012, 19:23
Sorry, how did he die? killed but shadowblade or what? (i dont really know shadowblades rules)

Blacktao
08-01-2012, 19:30
yes he got killed by shadowblade
he has WS10 BS10 S4 ( but drank a postion so he had S7) T2 I10 A in total +bonuses I think 7 W2 and a 5+ Ward save

Lord Zarkov
08-01-2012, 19:32
He can unfortunately since the Anvil counts as a war machine. He never 'joins' the unit from a rules perspective so he's unaffected by the Anvil's 'can't be joined' rule (which is common to all war machines).

However he can only replace a "normal rank-and-file member of the unit" so would have to replace one of your Anvil Guard (if still alive). He would then be able to attack you Runelord in combat though.

Blacktao
08-01-2012, 19:35
Damn :(
though rules are rules...

Lord Zarkov
08-01-2012, 19:35
yes he got killed by shadowblade
he has WS10 BS10 S4 ( but drank a postion so he had S7) T2 I10 A in total +bonuses I think 7 W2 and a 5+ Ward save

As far as I can tell he should have only 4A, although he does have ASF

Blacktao
08-01-2012, 19:37
what is ASF??

Lord Zarkov
08-01-2012, 19:39
what is ASF??

Always Strike First (which also grant re-rolls if you have an equal-or-better initiative and your opponent doesn't also have it)

Blacktao
08-01-2012, 19:41
ah ok thx
shadowblade also has 2 Handweapons so thats already +1 Attck
where the other 2 come from I don't know anymore :D

Lord Zarkov
08-01-2012, 19:44
ah ok thx
shadowblade also has 2 Handweapons so thats already +1 Attck
where the other 2 come from I don't know anymore :D
I was including that, he's only got three on his profile.

Maybe your oppoent got confused? There is an upgrade that give +D3 attacks which AFAIK is quite common on normal assassins, but which Shadowblade doesn't have.

The Low King
08-01-2012, 19:44
he starts with a potion?

your runelord should probably be able to take him

The issue with that rule in 8th edition is that crew are no longer serpearate models on a warmachine, they are etirely wound counters

Grok
08-01-2012, 19:45
I think the part about no other characters allowd to join the envil is obviously not ment to apply to enemy characters using their special rules to hide in it. He didn't join your unit, he's an enemy! :P

Blacktao
08-01-2012, 19:52
your runelord should probably be able to take him

No he killed me after 2 combats (with luck, the first round I did nothing:shifty: )


I was including that, he's only got three on his profile.

Maybe your oppoent got confused? There is an upgrade that give +D3 attacks which AFAIK is quite common on normal assassins, but which Shadowblade doesn't have.

I don't remember correctly hom much he had but it could be 4 ;)


The hardest part is, if you kill him he explodes, taking half of your unit with you (if he is standing in a normal rank-and-filed unit

sulla
08-01-2012, 22:26
He is hideously expensive though, and has to roll a dice every turn until he reveals himself or be discovered. He doesn't get to fight if this is the case, which probably means death to him.

Also, since he is the only model in combat, he can be challenged away from the character by a 10pt unit champ.

Also, a runelord on anvil means he has to kill the crew (or what's left of them after he reveals himself) before wounds go to the character. Next time, take a ward save and you will probably beat him. Shadowblade is characterful, but hardly overpowered in this edition. Being an assassin in 8th edition usually means you last 1-2 combat phases.

Korraz
08-01-2012, 22:48
Or just let some gunners hug the Anvil, and suddenly he can't be placed. Doesn't the DE player has to note in which unit Shadowblade hides too?

GrandmasterWang
09-01-2012, 01:26
The ultimate Dark Elf Assassin should be able to kill a Runelord.

Nasty trick though..... quite expected from the dastardly dark elves

Blacktao
09-01-2012, 16:57
I've found something that his assasin can't join my runelord w/ anvil:
the rules of the assasin say:
The unit that he infiltrates must be an infantry unit or warmachines crew whose models are on a 20mm or 25mm square base.

The Anvil is first of al not a square
and second the crew are not on a 20mm or 25mm base, it's a huge platform of 2,5" ( if I'm not wrong with the difference in measurements )

Black :chrome:

Mid'ean
09-01-2012, 17:13
With the DE army book coming out when it did and with 7th edition when warmachines HAD crew it is a legitimate move. The dwarf crew would BE on 20 mm bases. Wouldn't matter how the model is based up. Would be a rather cheeky move to say they aren't on a 20mm base cause you modeled it up on a 60mm scenic base. One of those old/new book conflics.

Brodrick
10-01-2012, 04:49
As far as I can tell he should have only 4A, although he does have ASF

My guess would be the DE player mistook Hand of Khaine with Rune of Khaine. As you said later in the post, he must have been confused.

SanDiegoSurrealist
11-01-2012, 01:26
Couple things:

The rules of the assasin say:
The unit that he infiltrates must be an infantry unit or warmachines crew whose models are on a 20mm or 25mm square base.

Warmachines no longer are on bases and the crew models are just wound markers at this point cannot even use them for determining line of sight anymore. I think the Anvil comes with all figs mounted on a big round platform without a base anyway.

Also can not give a Special Character any additional equipment other than what is on his profile, so no potion.

Lord Zarkov
11-01-2012, 01:27
Couple things:

The rules of the assasin say:
The unit that he infiltrates must be an infantry unit or warmachines crew whose models are on a 20mm or 25mm square base.
Warmachines no longer are on bases and I think the Anvil comes with a round base.

Also can not give a Special Character any otther equipment other than what is on his profile, so no potion.

Warmachine crew can still be on the stated bases though, regardless of the machine itself.

And the potion is on his profile.

Minsc
11-01-2012, 15:33
Shadowblade got one combat turn to kill the Runelord (the first turn: when he has S7 and hatred is active), after that he's stuck with 4 attacks, hitting on 3+ and wounding on 5+, and sadly, the roles will be reversed and the Runelord will actually kill Shadowblade.

Make your runelord immune to killing blow/poison, give him the "max S5 against me, mwhaha"-rune, a 1+ armoursave and a greatweapon, and watch Shadowblades feeble attempts to kill a "lowly" Runelord.

It's quite pitiful actually...

Blacktao
11-01-2012, 18:43
He never 'joins' the unit from a rules perspective so he's unaffected by the Anvil's 'can't be joined' rule (which is common to all war machines).

However he can only replace a "normal rank-and-file member of the unit" so would have to replace one of your Anvil Guard (if still alive).

I've been reading in the DE rulebook.

And what I've found whas in the contrary of what you are saying :)

A) in the last sentence of the first paragraph of "Master of assasins", there is written: 'Shadowblade cannot JOIN a unit of flyers'

B) The anvil doesn't have rank-and-file models. It can't even complete 1 rank, so you can't replace one, and secondly where are you going to place him? In the middle of the anvil? ;)

Sorry that I'm keep arguing on this topic but I really want a clear answer on this problem

Lord Zarkov
11-01-2012, 18:47
B) The anvil doesn't have rank-and-file models. It can't even complete 1 rank, so you can't replace one, and secondly where are you going to place him? In the middle of the anvil? ;)


A rank-and-file model is merely a model that is neither a champion nor a character. In a War Machine it would be one of the crew. The Anvil Guards on the Anvil are rank-and-file models

Blacktao
11-01-2012, 20:04
The Anvil Guards on the Anvil are rank-and-file models

Why? In the rulebook states that "a unit must be in an arranged formation of one or more horizontal lines or vertical lones"

Black

Lord Zarkov
11-01-2012, 20:11
Why? In the rulebook states that "a unit must be in an arranged formation of one or more horizontal lines or vertical lones"

Black
That's an explanation for the where the name came from, not the definition which is in the following sentence and simply "basic warriors" (p5) and clarified to include musicians and standard bearers but not champions on p99.

No War Machines can form a complete rank, yet Shadowblade can be in any War Machine so the Anvil is not special in this regard - the 'basic warriors' in a War Machine unit are simply the crew (excluding champions and characters as usual).