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View Full Version : Balancing the k'daai destroyer and magma cannon for WoC



Jack of Blades
09-01-2012, 08:15
What to do? a powerful monster and artillery for my WoC great host was what I most looked forward to Tamurkhan for but now I find out they're overpowered, particularily in the case of WoC as there is no overcosted core or anything to mitigate it - you'll just have truly really rock solid army all around. I don't want to incorporate overpowered things into the army but I really want to use both of these things.

1. Let the destroyer be wounded on 6s like anything else, the -1 to wound without magical attacks doesn't remove the ability to be wounded on 6s.
2. Magma cannon. No idea here - what to do?

Lord Zarkov
09-01-2012, 08:22
In the case of the Magma Cannon you could treat it like a Flame Cannon - i.e. errata it down to essentially range 0 like in the rulebook

Urgat
09-01-2012, 08:23
I think you should just force yourself to only use one of them, and not both entries at the same time; you can use both for grand armies.
On the other hand, I agree with your 1., I dislike this rule, it sounds like an attempt to avoid a core rule just for the heck of saying that their (FW) stuff is better. There's many other choices in Warhammer that could justify such a rule just as well or better(necrosphynx, stank, etc), and they don't, so the destroyer benefiting from that way is really a "meh" concept, imho. It's full of open areas anyway, like hell a stray bullet couldn't break something in there, even if it's weak.

Jack of Blades
09-01-2012, 08:26
Isn't that a bit harsh? you'd think it should have at least some range.

I won't use either in games lower than 4000. I plan to use two destroyers and two magma cannons for 4000 point narrative campaign SoM battles but even in such a setting I realise that having two of each is blatantly broken. But I want two of each, so I want to balance them :). The least I need to use is 2 destroyers, it's part of why I bought my WoC.

Yeah I thought of steam tanks and sphinxes too. If a goblin with a spear can hurt a steam tank or a great unclean one, why can't it hurt a k'daai destroyer?

Lord Zarkov
09-01-2012, 08:28
I think you should just force yourself to only use one of them, and not both entries at the same time; you can use both for grand armies.
On the other hand, I agree with your 1., I dislike this rule, it sounds like an attempt to avoid a core rule just for the heck of saying that their (FW) stuff is better. There's many other choices in Warhammer that could justify such a rule just as well or better(necrosphynx, stank, etc), and they don't, so the destroyer benefiting from that way is really a "meh" concept, imho. It's full of open areas anyway, like hell a stray bullet couldn't break something in there, even if it's weak.
Unfortunately we can't entirely blame Forge World for for the Burning Body thing - it first appeared in Storm of Magic for the Great Taurus there (so is probably a Wardism). Yes they applied it to an extra thing which gets far too much benefit out of it, but having multiple burning things in the army, only some of which have it, would be weird.
And it's not too bad on everything else, especially on regular K'daii (with T4).

Lord Zarkov
09-01-2012, 08:30
Isn't that a bit harsh? you'd think it should have at least some range.

I won't use either in games lower than 4000. I plan to use two destroyers and two magma cannons for 4000 point narrative campaign SoM battles but even in such a setting I realise that having two of each is blatantly broken. But I want two of each, so I want to balance them :)

Yeah I thought of steam tanks and sphinxes too. If a goblin with a spear can hurt a steam tank or a great unclean one, why can't it hurt a k'daai destroyer?

Well a range equal to an artillery dice roll, but no extra range before that.

Liber
09-01-2012, 08:43
Well a range equal to an artillery dice roll, but no extra range before that.


Ahh...You don't want to do that.

The Dwarf Flame Cannon is possibly the most useless unit in the entirety of WHFB. Bringing the Magma Cannon down to that level is not what the OP had in mind when he said he wanted to "fix" it :D

Jack of Blades
09-01-2012, 08:45
Yeah, if it had a range equal to an artillery dice I wouldn't bother including it not because of the damage it couldn't do but because it'd never get a shot off regardlessly. It'd be like giving a Bloodthirster M1 and no flying.

Urgat
09-01-2012, 09:03
How about having it scatter a lot like the empire rocket battery? It's big gouts of eldricht flames, say the winds of magic hurl them around like crazy?

logan054
09-01-2012, 09:57
How about making non-magical attacks -1 strength?

Max_Killfactor
09-01-2012, 11:50
My group decided that letting the Destroyer be wounded on 6s is fair. I'm fine with that, I still think it's worth the points.

Magma cannon is harder to tweak, and my group doesn't feel the need to (yet), but I'm only using one for the foreseeable future.

Maybe just give it a max range of 12"? I think that's what the flame cannon used to be, right? I don't think it needs nerfing quite as much, but taking two does compound the problem.

Bob Arctor
09-01-2012, 21:21
I agree with the suggestion for the K'Daai about letting anything wound it on 6's, its how I would play it if I was to use one in my army. I'm half convinced that some troops being unable to wound it at all is an oversight that will be errata'd at some point anyway.

With the Magma Cannon, you could just bump up its cost to 160-170pts perhaps, which may be what its really worth in a WoC army. Alternatively, to make it less reliable, how about reducing the range to 18", and have it move an extra D6" after the artillery dice is rolled (for a total range of 18"+Artillery Dice bounce"+D6"), making it harder to land on target.

Drongol
10-01-2012, 00:14
I agree with the suggestion for the K'Daai about letting anything wound it on 6's, its how I would play it if I was to use one in my army. I'm half convinced that some troops being unable to wound it at all is an oversight that will be errata'd at some point anyway.

Actually, per Forgeworld it's completely intentional for it to be immune to attacks below Strength 5. Not saying I agree with that, but that was apparently designer intent.

Muddypaw
10-01-2012, 00:40
How are people using a K'daii Destroyer in a WoC list without using the Great Host optional rules (3000+, opponents permission)

The box out on page 17 of Tamurkhan doesn't include the beast as a rare option for a WoC army.

And for the record as a Chaos Dwarf player I'd agree with a FAQ stating 6's still wound.

SlaaneshSlave
10-01-2012, 01:02
I must be the worst player ever!

I have been trying to make a 3k WoC army with 2 Hellcannons and 2 Magma cannons. And I have yet to win a single game!

Cannons kill alot, but my slow troops can never reach the target to finish the unit. Or a unit gets behind my troops and kills my warmachines to score 700 points!

How can I take overpowered warmachines, add them to an overpowered army... And always loose? Just crazy.

manickze
10-01-2012, 01:08
How can I take overpowered warmachines, add them to an overpowered army... And always loose? Just crazy.

The die gods smile upon you. :D

GrandmasterWang
10-01-2012, 02:45
Kdaii Destroyer is effectively a massive fire elemental. That's the reasoning behind it being immune to a great variety of attacks. If a 6 can wound it it's fine. I mean with it's 4+ ward save it's well defended compared to most beasties anyway.

Magma Cannon, reduce range to between 12 and 18 inches and i'd be ok with it. 18 is still a bit too long as you add the artillery dice then lay down the sizeable flame template. Dwarf flame cannon should get its 12 inch range, give Magma 16 and call it a day.

As a big fan of Chaos Dwarfs i'd be happy with the above.

Vidar
22-01-2012, 15:22
Forgeworld FAQ says it's not autowounded on 6's though.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/t/TamurkhanQA.pdf