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View Full Version : Stupidly Stupid Oldbloods (Lizardmen vs Orcs)



Malorian
09-01-2012, 21:57
So my brother wanted to try out orcs so he used mine and I took him on with my lizardmen.

Since I'm insane I decided to go for an oldblood on a coldone and the wizard hat, so twice the stupid!


Here is the full list:

Oldblood w/ wizard hat, cold one, shield

50 spear saurus w/ banner
40 saurus w/ banner
10 skirmishing skinks

6 saurus cav
stegadon
5 chamo skinks

salamander w/ extra handler

Total: 2000


Here is his list (ish):

Grimgor
Orc bsb w/ 2+ armor and one time reroll
Lvl 2 orc shaman

50 orcs w/ 2 choppas
50 night goblins w/ spears, banner, nets

38 black orcs (immortalz) w/ banner, flaming banner
Boar chariot

Arachnarok


We rolled up watchtower, I was the defender, and it was going to be pretty hard to keep it from Grimgor's horde of WS5, rerolling to hit, rerolling to wound, Immortalz...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuCp9bzLEkk

MOMUS
09-01-2012, 22:01
Yes! Lizardmen! :D

TsukeFox
10-01-2012, 03:41
How come terrain never gets to be in the center the battle field-excluding rivers-?

Seems like your Cold One Calvary needed more troopers-

Malorian
10-01-2012, 05:18
How come terrain never gets to be in the center the battle field-excluding rivers-?

Seems like your Cold One Calvary needed more troopers-

It kind of started with me getting the river out of the way and just kept on going. The only thing I put over there was the river though.

Well 6 should have been fine until I killed 4 of them myself ;)


(Good call on the Grimgor's flaming rerolls by the way.)

MOMUS
10-01-2012, 08:09
Minimal command in effect.
Do you not think that the musician pays for itself in combat blocks? As any draw is a loss without it. It would be a shame to lose such large combat units*.
This dosnt happen too often, but maybe often enough?

*Come to think of it would have the +1 to rally aswel.


EDIT: Just watched the tactical in full. I think champs you could do without, but i think you are the wrong person to be making the argument about less command*. As in your meta large units are king, i would think that the banner and musician would pay for themselves. As you are putting such a high investment in these unit why wouldnt you want to include banner and drum?
Take the lizardmen list, 50 saurus Vs 48 with banner and drummer, 2 wounds/attacks Vs the extra abilities which could save you (and half your army) in a tight spot?
In your examples its an all or nothing, a banner and drum would reduce the chance of the nothing happening.

*By this i mean i think armies with 3/4 large blocks should include command but people with smaller but more blocks should reduce command to what is necessary.

Malorian
10-01-2012, 15:20
Minimal command in effect.
Do you not think that the musician pays for itself in combat blocks? As any draw is a loss without it. It would be a shame to lose such large combat units*.
This dosnt happen too often, but maybe often enough?

*Come to think of it would have the +1 to rally aswel.


EDIT: Just watched the tactical in full. I think champs you could do without, but i think you are the wrong person to be making the argument about less command*. As in your meta large units are king, i would think that the banner and musician would pay for themselves. As you are putting such a high investment in these unit why wouldnt you want to include banner and drum?
Take the lizardmen list, 50 saurus Vs 48 with banner and drummer, 2 wounds/attacks Vs the extra abilities which could save you (and half your army) in a tight spot?
In your examples its an all or nothing, a banner and drum would reduce the chance of the nothing happening.

*By this i mean i think armies with 3/4 large blocks should include command but people with smaller but more blocks should reduce command to what is necessary.

Absolutely the opposite. In battles of smaller units you would expect to see combat res being closer, whereas in battle of massive hordes you see one side beating the other by 6+ (and it can easily go MUCH higher) so ties just don't happen often at all.

Now Lizardmen still enjoy cheaper command, but even then I still don't take it other than the banners on my two biggest units, and this is for blood and glory rather than combat res.

Shimmergloom
10-01-2012, 22:46
Yeah, I just had my first tie using hordes in a long time and while it did make a difference, the chances of that tie happening were so super small.

Basically with 61 s3 ng attacks, 18 s6 big boss attacks, a flank, banner, 3 ranks and charge, the chances of me winding up in the 13-13 tie that I did were so ridiculous, that I don't think it was something that should have been counted on preparing for.

And the fact that the 10pt musician which is far more valuable for an ogre unit is the same cost as the 10pt musician for night goblins which is far less valuable, irks me to no end.

TsukeFox
11-01-2012, 01:25
Jeez what is 3 night goblins when one is bringing 70+? don't be so cheap sirs

Malorian
11-01-2012, 03:14
Jeez what is 3 night goblins when one is bringing 70+? don't be so cheap sirs

This is Avian's logic: drop the unit size to free up the points.

But you still have the issue that the points are then more effective on a support unit then on command, no matter how many models you drop.

MOMUS
11-01-2012, 08:27
Absolutely the opposite. In battles of smaller units you would expect to see combat res being closer, whereas in battle of massive hordes you see one side beating the other by 6+ (and it can easily go MUCH higher) so ties just don't happen often at all.

Ak, probably a bad example.
Would you say, even though ties dont happen that often for you when they do happen its a game changer(if you dont have the musician). As you have such a large part of your army in that one unit?*
As your list revolves around these 3/4 large units, why not give them the insurance?

*Its almost like, the larger the unit the larger the (focused) positive impact it can have, but also the larger the negative impact it can have if delt with.

...I think actually im starting to agree with you, my logic was that if someone was bringing roughly the same as you their units would have roughly the same damage ouput as you. Meaning ties would be more common (and they would win with musicians).
But i suppose if you had those chariots added and no musicians you would have +damage/res compared to their drums. Meaning a tie combat would be very unlikely.

Wise words Ninja master ;) i subscribe to your newsletter :yes:

Malorian
11-01-2012, 16:29
Ak, probably a bad example.
Would you say, even though ties dont happen that often for you when they do happen its a game changer(if you dont have the musician). As you have such a large part of your army in that one unit?*

Lets say there is a tie, but you lose because you don't have a musician. What does this mean? All it means is that you lose by 1. So as long as you can pass a rerollable LD 8 test. Seems pretty safe eh? :)

Worst thing that could happen is if it was on a frenzy unit, but then you have to keep in mind that units with choppas or hatred that lose the first round will certainly lose the following round.

So if anything maybe a musician on a frenzy unit, but I still wouldn't bother (as is clear by the fact that I have never taken one with my savage big uns and so far have never had a tie).


Glad to have you on my side :)

TsukeFox
11-01-2012, 19:27
This is Avian's logic: drop the unit size to free up the points.

But you still have the issue that the points are then more effective on a support unit then on command, no matter how many models you drop.

For sure- if Skaven get an 8th edition codex I think will be highly irate if slave musicians go from 2 points to 10.

But then if & when that book comes Skaven will finally get powered up spells and lore attributes- making me easily forget the price hike on command

Malorian
11-01-2012, 19:50
But then if & when that book comes Skaven will finally get powered up spells and lore attributes- making me easily forget the price hike on command

Their 2 lores are pretty good as they are I think.

Nothing kills a bunker faster (along with the casters) than a dreaded 13th :cries:

MOMUS
11-01-2012, 20:27
...So as long as you can pass a rerollable LD 8 test. Seems pretty safe eh? :)


I bet that comes around to bite you in the ass. :p

I agree with your brothers tactical asessment of O&G 100% :D, i hope you have seen the light. When will see the first lizard team tactica? :angel:

TsukeFox
11-01-2012, 20:45
Their 2 lores are pretty good as they are I think.

Nothing kills a bunker faster (along with the casters) than a dreaded 13th :cries:

Pisha-!! I demand a powered up warp lightning -!! A single d6 worth of bolts is not enough to deal with the bricks of infantry.
Why a powered up scorch could use a large template.
Wither could reach out and touch units with extend range version.


besides Lore attributes are awesome-if not game changing.

But back to command issues-there is always a risk In throwing the dice for leadership test, why risk it -?

Malorian
12-01-2012, 02:38
But back to command issues-there is always a risk In throwing the dice for leadership test, why risk it -?

Because 50 points to buy 5 musicians that might come in handy every 10 games isn't as effective as a chariot that is useful every game.