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Asuryan's Spear
11-01-2012, 11:06
having heard the rumours about the upcoming VC book the hexwraiths drew my attention.
these guys have a rule called spectral hunters which means that when they pass through a unit they inflict one strength 5 no armour save hit per rider. and all for 32 points. add to this they are ethereal and this seems to unbalance the entire game!
whats to stop a unit of 30 (about 960pts) simply riding back and forth obliviously over units inflicting 30 automatic str 5 hits a turn with no armour save?
add to that the ability to free reform fo fast cav and its seems a death star of these guys will win any game buy themselves. stock up on magic def and hey presto theyre unstoppable

I would be very happy to be wrong on this and if i have made any mistakes i would be grateful for correction

AngelofSorrow
11-01-2012, 11:10
Ok for one you haven't read the book yet so stop whining over something you haven't got 100% confirmation of.

Now 1 problem is they can't march unless the general is nearby. So assuming they have move 8 they will be hard pressed trololololol your Battleline. You are fear mongering over something you haven't seen yet.


Ready for eternal war!

Korraz
11-01-2012, 11:11
What stops them?
Fireball does. And the fact that that unit makes up nearly half of the army. Considering the cost of a Vampire and the obligatory Necromancer or two, there won't be much else left.

Tymell
11-01-2012, 11:17
Phrasing concerns a bit less kneejerk-y will get you better responses. Saying, "I'm worried this unit might be overpowered. Here's why. Discuss." will work better than "This unit that I've never seen in action is totally broken and will ruin games!"

Anyway, that aside, I wouldn't worry. Every army has it's powerful units. Smaller units will be a threat (as they should be, this is a wargame after all), and if someone really does invest in a huge unit then that's a huge number of points they're pouring in. This unit isn't invulnerable, take such a unit out and that's half/a third of your opponent's force gone just like that.

Memnos
11-01-2012, 11:35
It's the end of warhammer, I tells ya! A T3 ethereal unit that can cause automatic S5 hits to things it can march through. YAAAAAAAAAH! Nothing can stop it!

Except magic missiles. Besides THAT, nothing can stop it.

And a single killy character with a magic weapon. So magic weapons and magic missiles. THAT IS IT.

And Daemons. They can affect Ethereal spells. So Daemons, magic weapons, magic missiles. BUT NOTHING ELSE.

Well... The level six spells that remove a model from play would kill half of them. So Daemons, magic weapons, magic missiles, and unit affecting spells. That's it!

And forest spirits, so I guess Treemen, Dryads and such.

And Dwarf runed up war machines.

And war machines that count as magic, such as the Hellcannon or the Screaming Skull Catapult.

Also, you could render it useless with spells that reduce movement, such as Miasma.

Also, Warrior Priests would be pretty good in this situation as well.
Okay, so besides:

Killy characters with magic weapons.
Units with magic weapons.
Daemons.
Forest spirits.
Removes from play spells.
Movement reduction spells.
Magic missiles.
Runed up war machines.
Warrior priests.
Hellcannons.
Screaming Skull catapults.



Besides those things, plus whatever I haven't thought of off of the top of my head, there is no way to stop it. It's the end!

AngelofSorrow
11-01-2012, 11:38
It's the end of warhammer, I tells ya! A T3 ethereal unit that can cause automatic S5 hits to things it can march through. YAAAAAAAAAH! Nothing can stop it!

Except magic missiles. Besides THAT, nothing can stop it.

And a single killy character with a magic weapon. So magic weapons and magic missiles. THAT IS IT.

And Daemons. They can affect Ethereal spells. So Daemons, magic weapons, magic missiles. BUT NOTHING ELSE.

Well... The level six spells that remove a model from play would kill half of them. So Daemons, magic weapons, magic missiles, and unit affecting spells. That's it!

And forest spirits, so I guess Treemen, Dryads and such.

And Dwarf runed up war machines.

And war machines that count as magic, such as the Hellcannon or the Screaming Skull Catapult.

Also, you could render it useless with spells that reduce movement, such as Miasma.

Also, Warrior Priests would be pretty good in this situation as well.
Okay, so besides:

Killy characters with magic weapons.
Units with magic weapons.
Daemons.
Forest spirits.
Removes from play spells.
Movement reduction spells.
Magic missiles.
Runed up war machines.
Warrior priests.
Hellcannons.
Screaming Skull catapults.



Besides those things, plus whatever I haven't thought of off of the top of my head, there is no way to stop it. It's the end!

You forgot about other hexwraiths. Lol


Ready for eternal war!

colonel kane trine
11-01-2012, 11:39
I doubt we will see them fielded in units bigger than 10 anyway
Every army can deal with that I reckon

Daniel36
11-01-2012, 11:41
People who haven't read the book yet:broken?

m1acca1551
11-01-2012, 11:53
Im sorry man, but are you for real?? I mean really the book hasn't been released yet, we have no idea of how they will play out.

Yeah they may have some "cheesey" broken in the wrong players hands rules, but from what i have seen they're fragile as hell, 1 fire ball and the unit aint worth a damn. They will suprise a player who has negelected to take a wizard or forgot that characters can take cheap magic items, or even that for 10 pts you can equip a flaming banner that the opposing player can't tell what unit has it...

I dont mean to be harsh, yet i'm very tired of hearing all the Vampire will be super OP or that VC are no craptastic. Your main worries when facing VC will be the heavy hitters and not the unit of ethereal knights that will draw you attention away from the real nightmares :)

Mirbeau
11-01-2012, 12:00
having heard the rumours about the upcoming VC book the hexwraiths drew my attention.
these guys have a rule called spectral hunters which means that when they pass through a unit they inflict one strength 5 no armour save hit per rider. and all for 32 points. add to this they are ethereal and this seems to unbalance the entire game!
whats to stop a unit of 30 (about 960pts) simply riding back and forth obliviously over units inflicting 30 automatic str 5 hits a turn with no armour save?
add to that the ability to free reform fo fast cav and its seems a death star of these guys will win any game buy themselves. stock up on magic def and hey presto theyre unstoppable

I would be very happy to be wrong on this and if i have made any mistakes i would be grateful for correction

Simply, no. What's to stop them - I think the points cost listed does a good job of that (before they get onto the table and get slapped about by the huge amount of magic thrown around this edition!) Please leave this sort of alarmist talk in/to the 40k section :D.
Regards,
Mirbeau.

SteelTitan
11-01-2012, 12:03
Also, you could render it useless with spells that reduce movement, such as Miasma.


I think Im actually pretty sure that Ethereal units are not affected my movement-reduction-effects. I think it says so under the ethereal special rules.

But apart from that, yeah, the end is nigh...

DarKolia
11-01-2012, 12:16
Hi!

Maybe they will be broken ... we will see...
But when you wanna sell model... having good (slightly) overpowered card seems a good tactics... Magic the gathering has understood that long ago...
But in the end you have to balance the game if you do not want to see people flee to other leisure...
Any chance we see a banned/restricted list soon?

A Wood-Elf player

AngelofSorrow
11-01-2012, 13:15
I think Im actually pretty sure that Ethereal units are not affected my movement-reduction-effects. I think it says so under the ethereal special rules.

But apart from that, yeah, the end is nigh...

You are correct they cannot be slowed by magic.


Ready for eternal war!

decker_cky
11-01-2012, 13:23
Even ignoring magic missiles...

S3 for dwellers.
I2 for purple sun and pit of shades.
T3 for plague.
Most dwarf shooting means bad things for them.
Enchanted blades on a shooting unit.
Flaming sword on a shooting unit.
The entire daemon army.
Much of the wood elf army.
Get them in combat with anything.
Fulminating flame cage.


A unit of 30 isn't a problem since you need to get the footprint through the unit you're facing, then have it end somewhere. That will almost never happen.

Ishivia
11-01-2012, 13:33
Funny enough - no one seem to have noticed that they're 5-10 in a unit as per the GW page which, I'd say, reduce the risk of seeing units of 30+ by quite a bit ;)

Tuttivillus
11-01-2012, 13:45
having heard the rumours about the upcoming VC book the hexwraiths drew my attention.
these guys have a rule called spectral hunters which means that when they pass through a unit they inflict one strength 5 no armour save hit per rider. and all for 32 points. add to this they are ethereal and this seems to unbalance the entire game!
whats to stop a unit of 30 (about 960pts) simply riding back and forth obliviously over units inflicting 30 automatic str 5 hits a turn with no armour save?
add to that the ability to free reform fo fast cav and its seems a death star of these guys will win any game buy themselves. stock up on magic def and hey presto theyre unstoppable

I would be very happy to be wrong on this and if i have made any mistakes i would be grateful for correction

You have just unbalanced my entire day. LOL :D :D :D

Asuryan's Spear
11-01-2012, 14:26
woud just like to point out that this wasn't a 'GW have ruined the game' post. i simply felt that without a unit cap this seems odd as it can potentially inflict high strength hits with no pay off (ie striking back in combat). i was genuinely puzzled as to whether i had read the rules wrong and was hoping that the 30 man deathstar wasn't a viable option

cwang733t
11-01-2012, 14:32
Do you know what is OP, spirit hosts. They BROKE fantasy. They were ethereal, they hosted, and spirited. No one was ever able to take care of them. Buy 10 of them, you get to attack with a SECOND RANK! (one attack per because they weren't monsterous infantry). Best 650 points I have ever spent. Seriously, fear the spirit hosts.

AngelofSorrow
11-01-2012, 14:34
A look at the GW website hexwraith entry lists them as 5-15.
You went about it posting it the wrong way it came off as a major whine. Posts like this when we don't know everything about the book just shouldn't be.


Ready for eternal war!

MOMUS
11-01-2012, 14:45
Im assuming the rules for the 'ghosty-hitty march' are like that of a vortex, if the unit lands on a subsequent unit and gets 'bumped' over several units it dosnt effect them all. Only the first 'target' unit?

I would hate for GW to have to write another FAQ :angel:

ihavetoomuchminis
11-01-2012, 15:05
If the unit damage works as a vortex, i can see many baaaaad sportmanship players deploying units of 10 hexwraiths, in 10 one man ranks.

Typo
11-01-2012, 15:11
They only have a single attack each, so assuming they're 3-deep at their maximum unit size, 15 attacks (5 rider, 5 mount, 5 supporting?) max. Woo. Just charge them with a steadfast block and leave it there for the game / until you can get something with magic attacks into it?

Unless you're one of those armies with a source of ranged magic damage, in which case they're pretty much toast.

I would love to see a unit of 30 though... that would be an 'I win' moment :)

Paull
11-01-2012, 15:16
My bretonnians are gonna love these hex wraiths, just 1 unit of these are gonna be a massive problem.

bret's don't have much access to magic missile (low str ones in life / beasts) or overcosted grail knights for magic weapons.

woodster17
11-01-2012, 15:28
Aye, Hexwraiths are capped at 10 per unit. So don't worry. From your profile pic and name it's obvious your a HE player. What are you worried about? Magic the hell out of them. If it were possible to have 30 Hexwraiths in a Unit it would be a tremendously stupid gamble to take. VC generally relying on outnumbering the enemy. If you're giving models to Dwarfs and Elves you are in for one serious pounding.

madden
11-01-2012, 15:30
Ogres are much the same a useless unit of yetees for magic attacks or waste the potential of our few characters (great weapons) and give them a magic weapon instead. This doesn't count banners of course but that is mostly defensive against incoming magic, and the only unit your getting steadfast on is gnoblars at least until they get hit if you even take them.

True it's to early to say for sure as we've only rumores to go on so far but I can see them being a major problem as things stand.

AlphariusOmegon20
11-01-2012, 15:32
having heard the rumours about the upcoming VC book the hexwraiths drew my attention.
these guys have a rule called spectral hunters which means that when they pass through a unit they inflict one strength 5 no armour save hit per rider. and all for 32 points. add to this they are ethereal and this seems to unbalance the entire game!
whats to stop a unit of 30 (about 960pts) simply riding back and forth obliviously over units inflicting 30 automatic str 5 hits a turn with no armour save?
add to that the ability to free reform fo fast cav and its seems a death star of these guys will win any game buy themselves. stock up on magic def and hey presto theyre unstoppable

I would be very happy to be wrong on this and if i have made any mistakes i would be grateful for correction

Have Tzeentch screamers broken the game either? No. Screamers have a similar ability to do damage in the movement phase.

I'm not that concerned about the Hexwraiths. They'll be a pain for a while, but once everyone loads up on the counter to that unit, you'll see their useage drop very quickly.

woodster17
11-01-2012, 15:35
I'm assuming spectral hunters doesn't apply if they've been charged? If not, hit them with a decent sized unit and watch them crumble after losing combat. Nobody in their right mind is going to let them wander around the board at will without doing anything about it?

AlphariusOmegon20
11-01-2012, 15:49
I'm assuming spectral hunters doesn't apply if they've been charged? If not, hit them with a decent sized unit and watch them crumble after losing combat. Nobody in their right mind is going to let them wander around the board at will without doing anything about it?

If that's the case, then Cav in 8th might have more use again, to chase that unit down.

Tuttivillus
11-01-2012, 16:17
My bretonnians are gonna love these hex wraiths, just 1 unit of these are gonna be a massive problem.

bret's don't have much access to magic missile (low str ones in life / beasts) or overcosted grail knights for magic weapons.

learn to use lore of heavens.;)

Cragum
11-01-2012, 16:29
I must admit after someone mentioned ogres being rather under magic-welmed that i will be keeping a keen eye on these horse riding buggers. Although saying that I may just go with the idea of just packing in the Flamethroger unit. (3 Firebellys)

See fireballs fly!

Easystreet
11-01-2012, 17:49
And war machines that count as magic, such as the Hellcannon or the Screaming Skull Catapult.
. It's the end!

I cant find where it says Hellcannon's Doomfire is a magical attack. Our group has been playing as its not a magical attack. Simply because we cant find anything that says it is.

Help

-Jason

Gaargod
11-01-2012, 22:12
@ Easystreet: I would absolutely swear that the hellcannons shooting attack is magical. This came up because I thought their combat attacks were magical too, and it was shown to me that it was just their shooting.


As others have pointed out, Hexwraiths are hardly something that can't be dealt with, specifically because you can just charge the buggers. A chunky steadfast unit will straight up block those expensive models for the rest of the game - and if you can buff them with magic / stick a character with magic stick in there, you will take them down.
Remember that 32pts a model is not that cheap! Considering they're not very hard to kill as soon as you have magic attacks in any form...

And frankly, it's not actually a bad thing. Consider: If a few players start taking multiple hexwraith blocks, that will encourage tournament players to start taking their counters. That either means more direct damage vs unit spells (notably lacking in shadow and death, life is ok between shield of thorns and awakening of woods) or more magic weapon wielding people.

Consider: The uber spells will still all work. Pit of Shades/purple sun/dweller's will knock large wholes in them, due to sub-par stats. Okkam's makes your unit have magic attacks, so you will shred them. Dreaded 13th will do nothing, as they're cavalry of course, but dreaded 13th will have a lot of other targets.
However, you will still need those spells for the other targets in the game (that vampire caster lord bunker, for example). So what's more likely, taking a magic weapon or choice with magic attacks when you wouldn't have before, or hoping that you will never have to deal with them?

russellmoo
11-01-2012, 22:22
Just to beat a dead horse-

How about a warp lightning cannon, jezzails, or any number of skaven weapons- (To all VC players: Please take a full unit of 10 of these 32 point cavalry models? There are several units that have fallen out of favor and would see a resurgence if hexwraiths are in every VC army.)

G.Hawke
11-01-2012, 22:43
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4083/5055032357_69d1d1be72.jpg

That is all that needs to be said.

-hawke

Bloodedsoul
11-01-2012, 22:59
Thanks, I might try the 18 screamers on the board and see what the local guys think, betting it gets 1 good surprise hit in then they go down in flames every game there after.

Wesser
11-01-2012, 22:59
My bretonnians are gonna love these hex wraiths, just 1 unit of these are gonna be a massive problem.

bret's don't have much access to magic missile (low str ones in life / beasts) or overcosted grail knights for magic weapons.

Grail Knights rly is the thing with ItP as well. And very little shooting (Bashees used to not affect ItP units, dunno if thats the case anymore) to hurt them on the way in. Grails are overcosted agains Skaven and Empire.... against Vamps where trebuchets arent ace anyway they'd be first on my shopping list for any number of reasons

Coldblood666
11-01-2012, 23:28
I don't know why someone would use big units of 10 Hexwraiths; wouldn't they be much more efficient in MSU? Their role is to kill enemy cavalry, warmachines, flyers, scouts, etc. I plan on running 6 max; and that's only because I need 9 Black Knights for my mounted lord and don't want to waste models.

oldWitheredCorpse
11-01-2012, 23:56
Okkam's makes your unit have magic attacks, so you will shred them.

Just a correction: Okkam's does not give the augmented unit magic attacks. It might make sense if it did, but it doesn't. Lore of fire and lore of metal have augments that give magic attacks - it says so explicitly in their entries.

Feefait
12-01-2012, 00:14
You forgot about other hexwraiths. Lol


Ready for eternal war!

And half the skaven army.

Doommasters
12-01-2012, 00:27
woud just like to point out that this wasn't a 'GW have ruined the game' post. i simply felt that without a unit cap this seems odd as it can potentially inflict high strength hits with no pay off (ie striking back in combat). i was genuinely puzzled as to whether i had read the rules wrong and was hoping that the 30 man deathstar wasn't a viable option

Taking a massive unit would lose you the game against any balanced list. Anything magic is going to crush you so hard.

Etheral is great in small amounts but there weaknesses are equal to their power!

PurpleSun
12-01-2012, 00:34
having heard the rumours about the upcoming VC book the hexwraiths drew my attention.
these guys have a rule called spectral hunters which means that when they pass through a unit they inflict one strength 5 no armour save hit per rider. and all for 32 points. add to this they are ethereal and this seems to unbalance the entire game!
whats to stop a unit of 30 (about 960pts) simply riding back and forth obliviously over units inflicting 30 automatic str 5 hits a turn with no armour save?
add to that the ability to free reform fo fast cav and its seems a death star of these guys will win any game buy themselves. stock up on magic def and hey presto theyre unstoppable

I would be very happy to be wrong on this and if i have made any mistakes i would be grateful for correction

Don't let all the contrarians on Warseer fool you, Hexwraiths will be devastating in certain circumstances. Everybody is pointing out the scenarios where they will not be effective.

Just imagine a vanguard move and a turn one march where a unit of Wraiths kills a 6 man unit of Chaos Knights outright.

Yes, there will be ways to counter them, but when they work, they will be like a Purple Sun on Lizardmen.

Lebowski
12-01-2012, 00:42
If the unit damage works as a vortex, i can see many baaaaad sportmanship players deploying units of 10 hexwraiths, in 10 one man ranks.

on it bra. Ill have the models ready by thursday.

Tuttivillus
12-01-2012, 00:53
Don't let all the contrarians on Warseer fool you, Hexwraiths will be devastating in certain circumstances. Everybody is pointing out the scenarios where they will not be effective.

Just imagine a vanguard move and a turn one march where a unit of Wraiths kills a 6 man unit of Chaos Knights outright.

Yes, there will be ways to counter them, but when they work, they will be like a Purple Sun on Lizardmen.

what march ?:angel:

Alcibiades
12-01-2012, 01:11
My bretonnians are gonna love these hex wraiths, just 1 unit of these are gonna be a massive problem.

bret's don't have much access to magic missile (low str ones in life / beasts) or overcosted grail knights for magic weapons.

Take a few more paladins with magical weapons, or use the lance formation's cheap and easy ranks to combat res 'em to death.

Brother Haephestus
12-01-2012, 01:24
Even if it is "this bad," I'm looking forward to it! There's nothing like a new tactical challenge to allow me an excuse to field new tactics!

Full, 100% "balance" is only achieved through lack of options. I would much rather have lots of options that encourage me to adapt to them than to have none of them!

Havock
12-01-2012, 01:45
They are ItP, they cannot flee and probably not run away from combat either.

This might be a good reason to take a firemage or a hitty character with magical weapon along.

decker_cky
12-01-2012, 01:48
Im assuming the rules for the 'ghosty-hitty march' are like that of a vortex, if the unit lands on a subsequent unit and gets 'bumped' over several units it dosnt effect them all. Only the first 'target' unit?

I would hate for GW to have to write another FAQ :angel:

Likely a bad assumption. Seems likely that they'd be much more similar to flyers flying over units, who need to be able to place themselves after the fact.

Maoriboy007
12-01-2012, 01:57
Just imagine a vanguard move and a turn one march where a unit of Wraiths kills a 6 man unit of Chaos Knights outright.
.

I have a hard time feeling sorry for Chaos knights

Aluinn
12-01-2012, 02:07
Max unit size of 10, guys--it's right there on the GW website; check it, please, if you doubt me. Cool your jets.

Also they have a single attack apiece, which makes them pretty bad in combat. Oh, sure, they have S5, and that's great, but they're still not likely to cause sufficient damage to overcome static combat res in units that they charge on a consistent basis, even assuming there is no one in there with a magic weapon that can kill them, and this is exacerbated by their lack of a standard or musician.

As someone who uses Wraiths regularly, I can assure you that you'll often need 5 of them (15 attacks) to overcome static CR, and Hexwraiths maxing out at 10 attacks just don't cut it in a combat-focused role.

Of course the big news is not their combat ability but their ability to move through an enemy unit and inflict auto hits. This at first seems pretty unstoppable--not only will they deal damage, but they'll get behind enemy lines and cause all kinds of disruption. To some extent this is true, and it will be their main use. However, consider for a minute that this maneuver is not as easy to pull off as it might first seem:

You can't end your move within an enemy unit, obviously, nor within 1" of them. As such, you need to have adequate movement to take you from your starting point (probably not immediately in front of the enemy unit, because any enemy unit with ranks that can charge these guys, assuming a competent opponent, will do so and crumble them via static CR), through the unit, and out the back again to clear the further 1". This is feasible with small units but is going to be extremely difficult with large infantry blocks. It's made even more so by the fact that they can't march unless within 12" of the VC army's general, and as such will have trouble doing it far out on a flank, where you'd otherwise probably want them. Moreover, once they accomplish it the first time, IF they do, they're essentially guaranteed to be out of the march bubble and will not be able to muster a repeat performance except against tiny chaff units of 1-5 models at best.

I'm not predicting that they will be bad, but if you think they're going to rampage around your opponent's army killing things whilly-nilly, I 'd have to say you're mistaken. Their use is very narrow: Bust through a single unit at the beginning of the game, then charge things in the backfield, e.g. war machines. They're good at this but it's not, at the end of the day, even close to game breaking--any flying unit that hits relatively hard, e.g. Pegasus Knights, or the new Vargheists, can do similar things.

And the assumption that opponents will not have counters to Ethereal units is absurd. Even if they weren't planning to face Ethereal units, they probably have plenty--magic missiles counter lots of things and everyone ought to have at least one, to begin with--and at any rate static CR is always a soft counter.

woodster17
12-01-2012, 02:13
I've yet to learn the connotations of spectral hunter. It's very likely that it can only be used under certain circumstances. Can it be used as a charge reaction is a similar way to flee? If so, it's possible that you could eventually apply 'broken' to the rule as it would be impossible to pin the unit down and destroy them unless you magic them. I very much doubt it's going to cause the utter and abject chaos people are afraid of here. Under certain circumstances it could be very useful, but the same can be said of many units in many armies.

PurpleSun
12-01-2012, 02:45
what march ?:angel:

You must not be familiar with how VC work. You see, when they within so many inches of a "vampire", they can march. Also, they have a spell called "Dance Macabre" which allows them to move also.

Yamabushi
12-01-2012, 02:49
Yes, like say within 12" of the General nowadays. And t the 12" range Danse that enables a movement of 8" :p :p

EDMM
12-01-2012, 03:27
They are clearly going to have to end their move in a legal position. None of this "bouncing over units" nonsense.

And they're going to be easy to deal with.

Trains_Get_Robbed
12-01-2012, 05:54
Not likely, anyone thinking these guys are going to be a walk in the park is not only delusional, but a 'fluff' gamer in most cases, and will revoke their opinions of Hexwraiths and V.C in general when Dire Wolves have Vanguarded into position on one flank, and these guys have cut off and prepared a fly-over and charge on the right flank.

MOMUS
12-01-2012, 05:54
Likely a bad assumption. Seems likely that they'd be much more similar to flyers flying over units, who need to be able to place themselves after the fact.

Good shout, i was just anticipating some beardy moves going on by VC players.

Tuttivillus
12-01-2012, 09:54
Yes, like say within 12" of the General nowadays. And t the 12" range Danse that enables a movement of 8" :p :p

That is exactly what I meant. Thnx, Yamabushi:)

theshoveller
12-01-2012, 10:19
You must not be familiar with how VC work. You see, when they within so many inches of a "vampire", they can march. Also, they have a spell called "Dance Macabre" which allows them to move also.
In the example used, the Hexwraiths had already made a Vanguard move (i.e. 12" into the table), likely taking them out of range of the vampire's march bubble (if that rule is still in the army book).

You could probably still do it if you were smart, but every inch of the Vanguard move not used (to stay in said bubble) is one less inch of the march move.

Spiney Norman
12-01-2012, 12:16
Of course the big news is not their combat ability but their ability to move through an enemy unit and inflict auto hits. This at first seems pretty unstoppable--not only will they deal damage, but they'll get behind enemy lines and cause all kinds of disruption. To some extent this is true, and it will be their main use. However, consider for a minute that this maneuver is not as easy to pull off as it might first seem:


Actually I think this manouvre is going to be damn hard to pull off

Lets look at movement rate and distances, now skeletal steeds are M8 correct? Which, assuming close proximatey to the general gives a maximum march range of 16".

Now lets assume the average unit is going to be at least 4" deep, thats 5 ranks of 20mm base infantry (which seems fairly common), 2 ranks of cavalry or monstrous infantry or a single rank of most monstrous cavalry/chariots/monsters.

For a unit of hexwraiths one rank deep you have the depth of the target unit plus 1" spacing plus the depth of the hexwraith unit (4+1+2 = 7")

So 7” of clearance needed from the front of the target unit, which means that the front of the hexwraith unit must be within (16-7=) 9” from the front of the target unit to fully pass through it at the start of the movement phase.

Unless there is intervening terrain any unit in the game has a fairly good chance of charging 9”, what’s more it throws the first turn vanguard + charge manoeuvre into doubt as well.

ihavetoomuchminis
12-01-2012, 12:52
Actually I think this manouvre is going to be damn hard to pull off

Lets look at movement rate and distances, now skeletal steeds are M8 correct? Which, assuming close proximatey to the general gives a maximum march range of 16".

Now lets assume the average unit is going to be at least 4" deep, thats 5 ranks of 20mm base infantry (which seems fairly common), 2 ranks of cavalry or monstrous infantry or a single rank of most monstrous cavalry/chariots/monsters.

For a unit of hexwraiths one rank deep you have the depth of the target unit plus 1" spacing plus the depth of the hexwraith unit (4+1+2 = 7")

So 7” of clearance needed from the front of the target unit, which means that the front of the hexwraith unit must be within (16-7=) 9” from the front of the target unit to fully pass through it at the start of the movement phase.

Unless there is intervening terrain any unit in the game has a fairly good chance of charging 9”, what’s more it throws the first turn vanguard + charge manoeuvre into doubt as well.

And that, considering they can march, wich most of the time won't be true. The only way they are going to make this movement is when the opponent moves really bad.

the_picto
12-01-2012, 16:23
5 hexwraiths would kill a massive 1 ogre a turn on average. To kill 6 chaos knights you'd need 10 hexwraiths, which would cost more than the knights and if it were the other way around the knights would crush the hexwraiths in one turn.

Caelas
12-01-2012, 16:39
having heard the rumours about the upcoming VC book the hexwraiths drew my attention.
these guys have a rule called spectral hunters which means that when they pass through a unit they inflict one strength 5 no armour save hit per rider. and all for 32 points. add to this they are ethereal and this seems to unbalance the entire game!

No, no, no. Hexwraiths cannot march if not nearby a vampire, so in most cases they will struggle to move through another unit. Ethereal can be dealt with using magic, magic weapons, etc. They are not broken whatsoever and are easy points for players ready to deal with them. So if anything, I think they will change the metagame a little bit, but not drastically.

Capt._Jaelinek
12-01-2012, 17:54
Just to toss an idea out. Do they need to move through the unit or just contact the unit? As they are fast cav they can free reform at will. What if they moved into base contact then moved back or to the side instead of thru. Would that be legal?

popisdead
12-01-2012, 20:17
Ok for one you haven't read the book yet so stop whining over something you haven't got 100% confirmation of.


Thumbs. Up. !!!!

People forget the game is played on tables, with dice, opponents, terrain and army lists so easily.

OMG 5 models!!!!!!! What will I ever do!

Tuttivillus
12-01-2012, 21:17
Thumbs. Up. !!!!

People forget the game is played on tables, with dice, opponents, terrain and army lists so easily.

OMG 5 models!!!!!!! What will I ever do!

So true. :)

Necromancer2
12-01-2012, 22:35
I thought of a good tactic (if it will work)

5 Hexwraiths in front of/ followed by a unit of Black knight or Blood Knights with a vamp character.

The HWs charge, past thru causing their hits then next round charge by the next unit.

hex wraith turn around and flank charge.

I have a feeling they won't "pop" thru the unit like Fanatics do.

Doommasters
12-01-2012, 23:26
I can see a FAQ comming for Hexwraiths. They are either going to be good or horrible depending on how they rule it.

Texhnolyze
12-01-2012, 23:47
From what I've heard they can't "pop" through units, and they have to move straight through them. That would mean, if they start 1" in front of the unit they wish to move through, they also need to clear the unit, and end up 1" behind the it (keep in mind the base is around 2")...

So 3" of their movement is just because of the 1" rule. So they got 5" of movement to go from where they are to the back of the unit they are moving through...

That's not a lot of wiggle room...

And I also heard they can only pass through unengaged units, as well as just one unit a turn

Tarian
13-01-2012, 00:17
And things like this is why my Dragon Prince deathstar or any of my HE bunkers take the Magical Attacks amulet. Sweet, sweet VP.

Kalandros
13-01-2012, 04:40
These will be definitely tough to tackle on with Orcs & Goblins, especially when I play horde heavy with relatively few magic weapons.. I will be forced to add 5~15 pts magic items just for these..

Malorian
13-01-2012, 05:26
So if anything, I think they will change the metagame a little bit, but not drastically.

The is ethereal units in a nutshell:

-People get scared
-Wood elve and daemon players laugh
-People add magic weapons
-VC players figure out there are more reliable units
-Things go back to normal

Lebowski
13-01-2012, 07:13
The is ethereal units in a nutshell:

-People get scared
-Wood elve and daemon players laugh
-People add magic weapons
-VC players figure out there are more reliable units
-Things go back to normal

yup. ethereal units are pretty gimmicky. Kinda wish they could just fill our slots with stuff that isn't so laughably easy to counter.

sidenote. I agree to your statement except for the black coach....

Iniesta
13-01-2012, 07:18
Hexwraiths need to be within 12" of the general to march. The marchbubble around stuff with vampirerule is gone. So make them kinda limited, as its hard to get to use their ability of moving through unengaged stuff with only 8 move and ending more than 1" away as is required when outside the generals radius..

Tancred II von Quenelles
13-01-2012, 07:44
and they can be afraid of combat result - they have to kill 5 vjdels in infantry block to get rid of banner, 3 ranks and mosic not to get a draw - and stay all the game not crumbling in a unit of 40 5 point guys

Aluinn
13-01-2012, 07:50
The is ethereal units in a nutshell:

-People get scared
-Wood elve and daemon players laugh
-People add magic weapons
-VC players figure out there are more reliable units
-Things go back to normal

This is correct except that Dwarf and Skaven players also laugh :).

Having said that, they aren't useless even in a metagame where people are prepared, but it is true that you cannot base your tactics on the assumed success of Ethereal units, nor spend too many points on them. In short it's pretty difficult for them to be overpowered, and if an Ethereal unit is OP it's probably not actually due to its Ethereality (yes, I'm inventing words now).

And I think the most powerful Ethereal option in the new book is in fact 3x single Spirit Hosts as redirectors and general nuisances.

pippin_nl
13-01-2012, 08:12
This is correct except that Dwarf and Skaven players also laugh :).

Having said that, they aren't useless even in a metagame where people are prepared, but it is true that you cannot base your tactics on the assumed success of Ethereal units, nor spend too many points on them. In short it's pretty difficult for them to be overpowered, and if an Ethereal unit is OP it's probably not actually due to its Ethereality (yes, I'm inventing words now).

And I think the most powerful Ethereal option in the new book is in fact 3x single Spirit Hosts as redirectors and general nuisances.

I think the wraith characters are not too bad. Backup up by huge amounts of skellies they can be a real nuisance if you lack magical weapons in your combat blocks.

Manbrick
13-01-2012, 09:28
Hexwraiths cannot march.

Pawn of Decay
13-01-2012, 09:37
Hexwraiths aren't too scary. They are a special choice. Maximum unit size of 10. Their points costs isn't that cheap, or that expensive. I think you will see them, but they wont break the game.

After reading through the new Vampire book, there are other things that you can spend the points on.

Nothing in the book can march unless within 12" of the General. That makes there movement very restricted.

Exardus
13-01-2012, 10:01
I am more worried with Crypt Horrors (inside Morthis engine bubble) and Vargheist rather then with Hexwraiths to be honest :)

Mr_Foulscumm
13-01-2012, 10:15
Funny enough - no one seem to have noticed that they're 5-10 in a unit as per the GW page which, I'd say, reduce the risk of seeing units of 30+ by quite a bit ;)

LOL! (More letters coz Warseer wants more than laughter!) :D

Asuryan's Spear
13-01-2012, 10:23
alot of ppl seem to be over looking the fact that they dont have to enter combat, and thus have to over come static combat res or retailation attacks. its inflicted in movement with no immediate response possible. in fact when they do it the unit that suffered almost certainly can't get into combat

Tuttivillus
13-01-2012, 10:26
alot of ppl seem to be over looking the fact that they dont have to enter combat, and thus have to over come static combat res or retailation attacks. its inflicted in movement with no immediate response possible. in fact when they do it the unit that suffered almost certainly can't get into combat

A lot of people see that, they were discussing that one of the ways of dealing with hexwraiths is charging them, and exterminating via static CR :p.

Aluinn
13-01-2012, 10:35
Nothing in the book can march unless within 12" of the General. That makes there movement very restricted.

Well, ah, according to many other people, Vampires can. However that's a tangent since Hexwraiths are most certainly not Vampires :).

(But it is pretty important in the case of Blood Knights, Varghulfs, and Vargheists.)

Exardus
13-01-2012, 10:36
alot of ppl seem to be over looking the fact that they dont have to enter combat, and thus have to over come static combat res or retailation attacks. its inflicted in movement with no immediate response possible. in fact when they do it the unit that suffered almost certainly can't get into combat

I think that best thing will be to see them on the table and how this mechanics really works in REAL TIME, this are all "what IF situations". Maybe some other new unit will be much better and game breaking then Hexwraiths in the new VC book.

Pawn of Decay
13-01-2012, 10:55
Well, ah, according to many other people, Vampires can. However that's a tangent since Hexwraiths are most certainly not Vampires :).

(But it is pretty important in the case of Blood Knights, Varghulfs, and Vargheists.)

I may have misread one part or missed something. but I don't believe thats the case.

To be honest, it is probably likely that I did miss something... lol.

Preacher
13-01-2012, 11:12
alot of ppl seem to be over looking the fact that they dont have to enter combat, and thus have to over come static combat res or retailation attacks. its inflicted in movement with no immediate response possible. in fact when they do it the unit that suffered almost certainly can't get into combat

Your right they don't have to enter combat, but that doesn't mean they wont wind up in it. They can always be charged themselves.

Screamers make the same type of attack and you don't really see them dominating Daemon lists and Screamers can fly(they can make the attack from a greater distance) and don't need the General around to make a march move(can do it whenever they like) and they are less points. They didn't break the game so I highly doubt these guys will either.

Give it some time and see how they play on the table. Theoryhammer only goes so far.

The End may be nigh, but it won't be brought upon the back of a T3 etheral model.

lisaundead
13-01-2012, 12:31
All the doom-mongering about the effect Hewxwraiths are going to have on the game makes for very interesting reading...particularly as they are not out and being played yet or even available to be fully viewed in the book.

Myself, Im going to hold judgement until I actually get the book and see how they will play but I do envisage getting a few small units of them to worry the hell out of opponents the first few times I play them..watching them act as nifty distractions away from the harder, more important parts of my army.

Hexwraiths will have a place in my army...just not the central focus of it :)

Pawn of Decay
13-01-2012, 13:16
They will be a good distraction unit. And once in a while will do something really cool and destructive. But they certainly are not the be all and end all of things. However some of the special characters are fairly tasty...

snottlebocket
13-01-2012, 13:57
At worst they'll do 10 strength 5 hits to a unit they move over. Big deal, there's spells and warmachines that do worse than that.

And there's not many targets in the game that'll let you score several hundred points with a cheap spell or two.

hamsterwheel
13-01-2012, 14:21
I saw the book yesterday. The Hexwraiths aren't over powered.

For one thing, you need to have a vampire within 12 inches of the unit in order for it to march. The special rule that allows them to make strikes into a unit they pass through is severely restricted. It is 1 strength 5 hit per model of the unit that passes through(Max 10 Strength 5 hits, no armor saves) the other unit but here's the caveat. When moving through other units, the hexwraiths have to have enough movement to clear the unit by 1 inch or more, so no landing on a unit and then getting an autopush out at 1 inch. This attack can only occur in the movement phase so the unit cannot dance through another unit for extra hits. At most, unless they're positioned at a flank of a unit, the hexwraiths will only be clipping units since they have to clear the 1 inch.

Lebowski
13-01-2012, 21:27
I saw the book yesterday. The Hexwraiths aren't over powered.

For one thing, you need to have a vampire within 12 inches of the unit in order for it to march. The special rule that allows them to make strikes into a unit they pass through is severely restricted. It is 1 strength 5 hit per model of the unit that passes through(Max 10 Strength 5 hits, no armor saves) the other unit but here's the caveat. When moving through other units, the hexwraiths have to have enough movement to clear the unit by 1 inch or more, so no landing on a unit and then getting an autopush out at 1 inch. This attack can only occur in the movement phase so the unit cannot dance through another unit for extra hits. At most, unless they're positioned at a flank of a unit, the hexwraiths will only be clipping units since they have to clear the 1 inch.

haha. if this is true man they went from 'OP' to 'never to be used'.
if this is accurate they have no place in 8th ed.

Necromancer2
13-01-2012, 22:55
I garunteed its accurate... they are to ONLy protect flanks from FC/Fliers/and non dwarf WMs.

Confessor_Atol
13-01-2012, 23:15
And thus ends another episode of Whineseer-panty-twist theater. Join us next time when we overreact to a roumor about another new unit who's unknown rules will cause us to poo our pants once again.:eek:

Spiney Norman
13-01-2012, 23:51
alot of ppl seem to be over looking the fact that they dont have to enter combat, and thus have to over come static combat res or retailation attacks. its inflicted in movement with no immediate response possible. in fact when they do it the unit that suffered almost certainly can't get into combat

The problem is that "passing through" a unit isn't as easy as it sounds when you consider how much physical space the bases of the hexwraiths themselves and their target unit take up.

Its a similar problem to one of the dark eldar vehicles when it was released. The void raven bomber had a powerful anti-vehicle weapon called the void mine, the problem it had was that it had to pass over its target in the movement phase to deploy the mine and it wasn't allowed to fire any weapons if it moved more than 12". When you consider that the base of a 40K flyer is about 6" long you'll realise that unless the void raven began its movement nose to nose with its target it was almost never going to get to use its oh-so powerful weapon.

As it is, to pass completely through an enemy unit hexwraiths are going to have to start their move well within the enemy's charge range, and if they are in the position of not being able to march they'll likely find it very hard to ever use their pass through attack.

Havock
13-01-2012, 23:54
Don't let all the contrarians on Warseer fool you, Hexwraiths will be devastating in certain circumstances. Everybody is pointing out the scenarios where they will not be effective.

Just imagine a vanguard move and a turn one march where a unit of Wraiths kills a 6 man unit of Chaos Knights outright.

Yes, there will be ways to counter them, but when they work, they will be like a Purple Sun on Lizardmen.

Just imagine the chaos player going first, charging the (likely pathetic?) cavalry and beating the whole unit to **** in one round?

Seriously, do we know their stats? Sounds they are like screamers, except better.

xxRavenxx
14-01-2012, 00:01
@ Purplesun - Imagine the chaos player beginning with 5 warhounds behind his 6 knights, meaning the hexwraiths don't have the movement to jump over both, and thusly can't damage the knights...


Imagine how poor they'll be then. Imagine this happening every single game.

Imagine all the people...

Dominatrix
14-01-2012, 00:05
Screamers make the same type of attack and you don't really see them dominating Daemon lists and Screamers can fly(they can make the attack from a greater distance) and don't need the General around to make a march move(can do it whenever they like) and they are less points. They didn't break the game so I highly doubt these guys will either.


Just wanted to point out that screamers are nowhere near as good as hexwraiths. First of all they are not that cheaper than hexwraiths. Second they are based on 40 mm bases not cavalry ones. Try maneuvering or hiding a big unit of them and see how you like it. Third hexwraiths are immune to nonmagic attacks. Screamers are not. Bowfire has no problem killing a T3 model with one wound. Oh and their slashing attacks (and close combat ones) don't ignore armor saves like the hexwraiths' do. So yeah... identical units... :rolleyes:

I am not saying hexwraiths are broken. I will use them myself and have ways to counter them. But they are a solid choice at the very least. Screamers suck hard. No comparison.

sulla
14-01-2012, 00:16
I have a hard time feeling sorry for Chaos knightsI can't see anybody really using Hex's to counter a unit with swiftstride and magic attacks. Seems a little... risky... to me.


Just wanted to point out that screamers are nowhere near as good as hexwraiths. First of all they are not that cheaper than hexwraiths. Second they are based on 40 mm bases not cavalry ones. Try maneuvering or hiding a big unit of them and see how you like it. Third hexwraiths are immune to nonmagic attacks. Screamers are not. Bowfire has no problem killing a T3 model with one wound. Oh and their slashing attacks (and close combat ones) don't ignore armor saves like the hexwraiths' do. So yeah... identical units... :rolleyes:
. I was waiting for someone in this thread to say that. Screamers, at t3 with only a 5++ to protect them are neither resilient in or out of combat. Hexwraiths are generally both, especially if used carefully by the VC player to avoid combat characters or the front arc of casters (by all means turn your unit to face, but expose them to a flank charge from the rest of the army.

Personally, I can't see the the 'rideby' attacks meaning that much to most big combat blocks in this edition, so generally, they will only do the same sort of things as shooting can achive in other armies; i.e. killing light units or knocking a wound of monsters.

Personally, I'd be more fearful of single spirit hosts, which can tie up monsters of give +2 easy CR to combats through a largely risk free flank charge. They and dire wolves are going to add a lot to the fairly dull vampire lists we saw in 8th ed. 150pt+ Hexwraith units will be flavour, but not a better flavour than any of the monstrous infantry of even rares.

Jolly Puggles
14-01-2012, 09:47
I'm pretty solidly in the "Broken? No...Just No." camp here; there's a lot to counter Hexwraiths (including, not least, most of my Skryre-themed Skaven army), but there's been a lot of talk about it being hard to pass through a unit due to unit depth, 1" rule and such. I could be wrong, having not read the specific rule, but a certain (admittedly cheesy) interpretation would allow a unit of Hexwraiths to merely "clip" the corner of an enemy unit to get full hits, no? Or is this a case of "go read the rules Jolly"?

Sarael
14-01-2012, 17:53
I doubt we will see them fielded in units bigger than 10 anyway
Every army can deal with that I reckon

Since GW's site lists them as 5-10 models per unit, I agree... Also, I'm guessing they can only move through a unit if they have enough M to get through it AND not have intervening models on the other side, so keep your units tight and long and you won't even have to worry about them riding through you.

Voss
14-01-2012, 18:57
having heard the rumours about the upcoming VC book the hexwraiths drew my attention.
these guys have a rule called spectral hunters which means that when they pass through a unit they inflict one strength 5 no armour save hit per rider. and all for 32 points. add to this they are ethereal and this seems to unbalance the entire game!
whats to stop a unit of 30 (about 960pts) simply riding back and forth obliviously over units inflicting 30 automatic str 5 hits a turn with no armour save?
add to that the ability to free reform fo fast cav and its seems a death star of these guys will win any game buy themselves. stock up on magic def and hey presto theyre unstoppable

I would be very happy to be wrong on this and if i have made any mistakes i would be grateful for correction

Well, you are all sorts of wrong on this. For one thing they are less than you seem to think (by 2 points).

But mostly you are wrong on this because you can't have a unit of 30. They cap at _10_ models. And of course, bigger units of hexwraiths have a harder time passing through units anyway. They are a good hard counter to monsters like hydras, and they can do amazing damage to warmachines and knights (though chaos knights will eat them, given a chance), but they probably aren't going to win you the game, and a decent attack spell wrecks them.

They are a decent unit, good even. But they aren't good against blocks, and if you can bypass ethereal, they die like chumps.


I think the real problem with them is that they make black knights iffy (and with every thing else in special section, I have no idea why fellbats still exist at all). They are just too close in point cost once you upgrade BK with lances and barding. S5, no AS all the time is much more reliable than killing blow.


I could be wrong, having not read the specific rule, but a certain (admittedly cheesy) interpretation would allow a unit of Hexwraiths to merely "clip" the corner of an enemy unit to get full hits, no? Or is this a case of "go read the rules Jolly"?
You should. Clipping does little, they only inflict hits for each model that passes through the unit. So if you clip, you won't do much damage at all

Jolly Puggles
14-01-2012, 19:23
You should. Clipping does little, they only inflict hits for each model that passes through the unit. So if you clip, you won't do much damage at all

I stand corrected...my thanks ;)

Iniesta
14-01-2012, 21:39
Just wanted to point out that screamers are nowhere near as good as hexwraiths. First of all they are not that cheaper than hexwraiths. Second they are based on 40 mm bases not cavalry ones. Try maneuvering or hiding a big unit of them and see how you like it. Third hexwraiths are immune to nonmagic attacks. Screamers are not. Bowfire has no problem killing a T3 model with one wound. Oh and their slashing attacks (and close combat ones) don't ignore armor saves like the hexwraiths' do. So yeah... identical units... :rolleyes:

I am not saying hexwraiths are broken. I will use them myself and have ways to counter them. But they are a solid choice at the very least. Screamers suck hard. No comparison.

Dont forget they are fast cav that never can march unless they are within 12" of the general, and need enough movement to go at least 1 " past the unit they wanna do their specialattack on (and there is space awailable behind it) so at best its a 1 time use as it cant be used on things in cc. Besides the fastcavunit can be pretty lost without march behind enemy lines and vulnerable to magic. So its pretty obvious where its gonna start the game and can be countered as they are no way a good general is gonna let it pass through a unit with only a 8" move and the restricitons aplied outside the generals marchbubble..
So i disagree with your post and even if screamers are subpar they are better and way more movable and flexible than hexwraiths.

Sarael
15-01-2012, 07:20
I cant find where it says Hellcannon's Doomfire is a magical attack. Our group has been playing as its not a magical attack. Simply because we cant find anything that says it is.

Help

-Jason

Q. Models that were defined as Daemonic in the past and therefore
had magical attacks, such as Daemon Princes, Hellcannons, Chaos
Mounts (Juggernauts, Discs etc.), no longer have magical attacks. Is
this right? (p53)
A. Yes.

Chaos Knight's Ensorcelled Blades to the rescue! Grave Guard/Black Knights also lost magical attacks, on a side note.

Havock
16-01-2012, 01:18
Damnit, this whole increase in possible ethereal options might tilt the meta enough for me to actually feel the need to take knights again. Probably just a minimum unit with a musician though. Possibly MoT to keep in theme. Or Khorne if I don't give a **** :p

sulla
16-01-2012, 10:08
Damnit, this whole increase in possible ethereal options might tilt the meta enough for me to actually feel the need to take knights again. Probably just a minimum unit with a musician though. Possibly MoT to keep in theme. Or Khorne if I don't give a **** :pChaos knights are good enough to function just fine in the current environment, etheral or no etheral.

tw1386
16-01-2012, 21:02
It's not that they are bad, they are actually quite amazing for their points cost!

For what they cost I'm surprised so many people are trying to underplay them. A unit of 5 has the potential to annihilate monsters in one pass through. Granted you gotta be a good roller. 5 Str 5 flaming auto hits that ignore armor saves is nothing to scoff at. They aren't slouches in close combat either. They do have great weapons after all. These guys will be ace in most games tying up and / or killing high value low count models or units.

No smart VC general will let these things get tied up with big blocks, granted it'll happen but then that big block isn't doing anything for quite some time. Anyways, they do have hard counters but them those hard counters usually cost more points than the average unit size you'll prolly see of these guys which is prolly 5-7 per unit at most.

Don't forget, these hits have vanguard and can still be within the generals march range. There potential 24 inches turn 1. I foresee these guys being excellent Mage assassins.

Shandowner
17-01-2012, 00:19
I think 2 units of 5 will be in most lists..

Any more points it gets too risky, but flexible cheap and do enough damage to murderize small expensive stuff and lone wizards. (well hurt them a bit anyhow.)

TheRaven
17-01-2012, 01:23
I agree with the 2 units of 5 assessment. I think they will be really good but more of a counter to alot of really tough opposing units. A unit of 5 can be thrown against most monsters that don't have magical attacks and just kind of left there until they can be dealt with. Steam tanks, Ogre and Tomb king big monsters, mournfangs. Really I can see them being a great counter to mournfangs. They're not going to ride around outmanouvering everything and wiping out units with impunity like people think they will but that doesn't mean they don't fill a very needed role.

Jeru
17-01-2012, 02:06
I doubt we will see them fielded in units bigger than 10 anyway
Every army can deal with that I reckon

they are 5-10 anyway. So I concur~

larabic
20-01-2012, 04:51
Just read the book, not sure why you wouldn't field 3 units of 10 in a 2250 army list. They almost can't lose against any unit with out a character, or magical attacks. They seem like a game ruiner to me, they need to be clarified about moving through units because in theory in a proper battle line they can move an unlimited distance. I can see multiple units of these making games very unfriendly and un-fun to play against.

Scythe
20-01-2012, 08:14
Just read the book, not sure why you wouldn't field 3 units of 10 in a 2250 army list. They almost can't lose against any unit with out a character, or magical attacks. They seem like a game ruiner to me, they need to be clarified about moving through units because in theory in a proper battle line they can move an unlimited distance. I can see multiple units of these making games very unfriendly and un-fun to play against.

No, they can't. There's nothing in their rules which suggest you can ignore the normal movement rules (or get 'bonus' movement) when moving through a unit. Eg, you need to have enough movement to end up on the other side, 1" away from enemy models.

That aside, in combat themselves, they are very similar to other ethereal units. They only have a single S5 attack in combat (ok, plus a S3 horse attack), while a unit of wraiths has 3 S5 attacks per model in combat. The wraiths are likely to be a way bigger problem for anything which doesn't has magic attacks as the hexwraiths, and they have been around for a long time.

PeG
20-01-2012, 09:04
Just read the book, not sure why you wouldn't field 3 units of 10 in a 2250 army list. They almost can't lose against any unit with out a character, or magical attacks. They seem like a game ruiner to me, they need to be clarified about moving through units because in theory in a proper battle line they can move an unlimited distance. I can see multiple units of these making games very unfriendly and un-fun to play against.

I agree that they are stong and against some armies they have the potential of wrecking the game. However in all comers lists were you can go up against any possible enemy I dont see anyone taking 3 units of 10. Most armies I play would love to meet that enemy on the field even my main army that is currently the weakest (WE) would probably consider that a good set up compared to many other options that VC have. Dryads will appreciate to go up against something that doesnt have 10 ranks and hail of doom will have the possibility to kill something that actually means something.

In addition I play daemons, magic heavy HE and sometimes WoC. Of these it is only WoC that might have a problem but they still have magic, knights and sometimes a magical weapon on a character.

The Low King
20-01-2012, 14:32
Good luck using them against dwarfs.

Magical attacks on most characters, Warmachines with Magical attacks (Magical cannon grapeshot..)....and the problem of managing to fit the unit behind my dwarf blocks if im castling in the corner. Plus that fact that S5 only wounds us on 3s and will ignore most of our armour anyway.

Frankly
20-01-2012, 16:45
@Low King.

Thats a great example, theres even more example, Chaos knights, DoC, WE units, magic phases.

I think Hex Wraiths will be a 50/50 unit to take to tournaments, averagely good players will watch their ranges around H.Wraiths, stack deep ranks to make it harder get through the whole unit, choose ranged attacks in their magic phases, set up back field counter assault units, etc, etc.

Other than that, H.Wraiths just ain't that impressive against 40+ units, and even though your not buying H.Wraiths to target cheap horde units, your opponent cetainly will be targeting your H.Wraith with units with alot of cheap wounds and big foot prints.

Theyre a very good unit, but certainly not an auto-win.

Preacher
20-01-2012, 16:45
Just read the book, not sure why you wouldn't field 3 units of 10 in a 2250 army list. They almost can't lose against any unit with out a character, or magical attacks. They seem like a game ruiner to me, they need to be clarified about moving through units because in theory in a proper battle line they can move an unlimited distance. I can see multiple units of these making games very unfriendly and un-fun to play against.

How would that work? Theres isn't anything in their rules that states they can do this. The bigger problem would be how do you keep those three units within the march bubble of the general and still use them effectively.

A unit of ten is 4" deep(roughly), they have an 8" move, at closest you would be 1" away from the target unit and have to end your move 1" away from the unit. When you do the math you won't be able to fly through a very large unit at all. When taken out of the march bubble their effectiveness drops quite a bit.

They are a still a solid unit and will cause a lot of armies headaches, but they aren't going to unbalance the game.

Overtninja
20-01-2012, 18:37
have we concluded that the possibility of scooting a unit of 5 hexwraiths into a unit, doing a funny reform dance to get all models inside the unit, and then scooting out the same side that the hexwraiths entered from would not satisfy the special rule's requirements? if this is the case, there's no way they'd ever be truly useful against much of anything, which is a real shame considering how great they look.

Balerion
20-01-2012, 19:30
How would that work? Theres isn't anything in their rules that states they can do this. The bigger problem would be how do you keep those three units within the march bubble of the general and still use them effectively.

A unit of ten is 4" deep(roughly), they have an 8" move, at closest you would be 1" away from the target unit and have to end your move 1" away from the unit. When you do the math you won't be able to fly through a very large unit at all. When taken out of the march bubble their effectiveness drops quite a bit.

They are a still a solid unit and will cause a lot of armies headaches, but they aren't going to unbalance the game.
I believe he's operating under the assumption that they move like Fanatics, and that if they were to end their movement on top of a unit they would squirt through to the other side.


have we concluded that the possibility of scooting a unit of 5 hexwraiths into a unit, doing a funny reform dance to get all models inside the unit, and then scooting out the same side that the hexwraiths entered from would not satisfy the special rule's requirements? if this is the case, there's no way they'd ever be truly useful against much of anything, which is a real shame considering how great they look.
I still don't have my copy of the book, but I can't imagine they phrased it to enforce this effect. The idea of having to end the move on a specific side of the unit you're passing through seems overly wonky.

TheRaven
20-01-2012, 21:40
The wording on the rules for the hexwraiths are supprisingly well written.

First off they do not move like fanatics. Their special movement rule specifically states they must END their movement at least 1' away from other models. So no auto bumping through. If you try to end your movement in the middle of a unit it's considered an illegal move, so you can't do that. This makes them harder to get through to the other side of big blocks.

In regards to the moving your models up to touch a unit, reforming to face the other direction and them moving backwards is a completely legal move. THe only problem is that you pretty much just set yourself up for a charge. I really don't see that move getting used because if you don't have the movement to get through to the other side of a unit almost certainly won't have the movement to run up to a unit, hit it , turn around and then get out of charge range. Might be useful some times but so rarely I don't see people taking issues with it being a jammy move.

Havock
21-01-2012, 02:57
Chaos knights are good enough to function just fine in the current environment, etheral or no etheral.

Yet, expensive, and surprisingly fragile. Then again I play in a meta either filled with gobbo tarpits from hell, armies of great weapon wielding psychopaths or dark elves. "Hurrr pendant durrrrr". Maybe that just left me jaded with their performance.

Frankly
21-01-2012, 09:06
The other thing is Chaos knights are a prime target for Hex Wraith .... as well as great counter. :)

BUB
21-01-2012, 12:19
The other thing is Chaos knights are a prime target for Hex Wraith .... as well as great counter. :)

Indeed would be an interesting game of cat and mouse... or ghost and nutjob.

eleveninches
21-01-2012, 15:25
i see them sitting just at the edge of the generals march bubble next to the rest of the army, and being made with vanhels to move twice per turn over any enemy unit that dares come close to your battleline

eleveninches
21-01-2012, 15:26
chaos knights, other knights, hellpits, hydras, etc...

larabic
22-01-2012, 00:09
Doesn't the chaos knights rune blade (?) that gives them +1 str also give them magic attacks?

Havock
22-01-2012, 01:00
Yes, which is why they are a counter to their possible counter. Still unimpressed considering they won't do crap in any matchup where an opponent goes for biggish units (ie most of them) and they can die to a single fireball. If you make the unit bigger, it reduces their flexibility. Meh, I'd be more concerned with a big-ish unit of Black Knights threatening a flank.

Also, massed skeletons with Lore of Beasts is pretty neat; +1S/+1T makes them pocket grave guard at half the price, corpse cart nearby to help out even more... But that's more something of a generic vampire thingy.

piperrepip
22-01-2012, 05:19
It's the end of warhammer, I tells ya! A T3 ethereal unit that can cause automatic S5 hits to things it can march through. YAAAAAAAAAH! Nothing can stop it!

Except magic missiles. Besides THAT, nothing can stop it.

And a single killy character with a magic weapon. So magic weapons and magic missiles. THAT IS IT.

And Daemons. They can affect Ethereal spells. So Daemons, magic weapons, magic missiles. BUT NOTHING ELSE.

Well... The level six spells that remove a model from play would kill half of them. So Daemons, magic weapons, magic missiles, and unit affecting spells. That's it!

And forest spirits, so I guess Treemen, Dryads and such.

And Dwarf runed up war machines.

And war machines that count as magic, such as the Hellcannon or the Screaming Skull Catapult.

Also, you could render it useless with spells that reduce movement, such as Miasma.

Also, Warrior Priests would be pretty good in this situation as well.
Okay, so besides:

Killy characters with magic weapons.
Units with magic weapons.
Daemons.
Forest spirits.
Removes from play spells.
Movement reduction spells.
Magic missiles.
Runed up war machines.
Warrior priests.
Hellcannons.
Screaming Skull catapults.



Besides those things, plus whatever I haven't thought of off of the top of my head, there is no way to stop it. It's the end!

no spell or effect can hinder or otherwise halt an ethreals movement so that wouldnt work btw

TheOneHawk
22-01-2012, 05:34
Hellcannons also aren't magical.

Other than that, yeah, Hexwraiths won't be hard to kill, honestly.

piperrepip
22-01-2012, 05:56
nope they wont be but i can honestly say im going to use them even just in units of 5 they seem to be nice

Frankly
23-01-2012, 15:37
i see them sitting just at the edge of the generals march bubble next to the rest of the army, and being made with vanhels to move twice per turn over any enemy unit that dares come close to your battleline

I watched a few games with Hex wraiths having a hard time keeping within the Generals march radius whilie also threated proper targets.

I watched a couple of times while 2 big units of H.wraiths had to sit there while they caught in a stand off firstly with Dryads waiting to counter assault them and then getting mashed by doom of arrows or something and then in another game they were countered by big fat blocks of skinks that the Wraiths couldn't get even range to get on the way through the unit, mainly due to the fact that had to stay in position for marching and out of sight of the slanns magic.

I don't think theyre game ruining.

EDMM
28-02-2012, 17:40
Has anyone seen Hex Wraiths ruin a game for anyone other than the Vampire Counts player taking them?

TheLegend
28-02-2012, 18:01
I have found the hexwraiths to be all or nothing so far. The psychlogical effect they have on the opponent can be worth it. I have only played 5 different games (all at 1000) with them and they have by no means unbalanced the games. In fact, I only got one run through. They are handy for flank/rear charges, since most units won't be able to attack back. Even in those cases where I got the flank or rear they ended up crumbling (and no, they were not the only unit in combat). Their lack of defense to magic makes up for their invulnerability to mundane attacks.

Tuttivillus
28-02-2012, 18:02
Has anyone seen Hex Wraiths ruin a game for anyone other than the Vampire Counts player taking them?

Yeah, I have seen. They ruined my game, cause I've expected more from them :D

Maoriboy007
28-02-2012, 21:17
Why does everone forget about combat res when it comes to etherals, they are expensive, have practically zero static res, and fairly moderate combat stats. Lower thier WS with magic, or put armour or ward saves if possible (although hexwraiths ignore armour. Whats the standard res of a unit? 4-5? 5 hexwraiths would barely dent that

vinny t
28-02-2012, 22:56
I consider Hexwraiths too much of a risk to take. I think most hardcoer tournament players won't take them, as top armies tend to have a plethora of counters. Dark Elves have flying characters and Lifetaker, Daemons are Daemons, Skaven have a rediculous amount of "Warpstone Weapons", so on and so forth

sulla
29-02-2012, 05:28
Yeah, I have seen. They ruined my game, cause I've expected more from them :D:evilgrin: They are probably one edition too late. Hexwraiths would've been awesome vs MSU in 7th... Now they are just gnats buzzing harmlessly around the deathstars.