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Guillius
12-01-2012, 03:47
For example if suddenly Eldar Jetbikes are updated (models) can I still simply use my old ones in tournaments and such?

Zothos
12-01-2012, 03:50
yes you can.

Lyonator
12-01-2012, 04:05
Yessir.
Old GW is still GW.

ForgottenLore
12-01-2012, 04:23
Be advised however that if the new models have a different size base some people may complain. That argument crops up here every couple months.

(also worth noting, IF (big IF) the latest 6th ed rumor is accurate, the rulebook now addresses that question.

chromedog
12-01-2012, 06:05
This is a nice change.

"If you own a classic version of a model, you may always choose to mount it on the base the newest version of the model is supplied with."

Note: May does not equal MUST. It offers you the OPTION of rebasing it if you decide to. It is not a requirement, and cannot be enforced upon you vis-a-vis the rules.

Abaraxas
12-01-2012, 06:29
This is my Ghazgkhull Mag Uruk Thraka (and Makari the Gretchin)

Would you tolerate this, dear warseers?

Johnnya10
12-01-2012, 07:32
Yay! Old Ghazgkhull! I wouldn't only not mind, I'd welcome him onto the table. Maybe with a miniature red carpet. And Ghazgkull without Makari isn't Ghazgkull imho. Though the little fella might have to be purely decorative (like he ever did much anyway!) - not seen an Ork codex in a long time.

I figure, the amount you spend on the hobby, all models are valid for life. :)

Abaraxas
12-01-2012, 08:23
Skarsnik and Gobbla (general of my Night Goblins WFB army) this picture annoys me though because they need painting attention :eek:


Rule of cool-once you put a halfway decent paintjob on a piece it gets more legitamite IMO.

sulla
12-01-2012, 10:09
I wouldn't try to claim that old Ghaz figure represented a model with mega armour... Use it as a nob... or the manager of your Goffik rok band.

The Death of Reason
12-01-2012, 10:39
Of course you need to buy new models in order to play your army - its just like buying a car, and when a new version of the model appears, the police comes and takes your license plates and forces you to buy the new version :)

Shandara
12-01-2012, 10:43
All bases must be goblin green. Hail Ghazz. Use him :)

Souleater
12-01-2012, 10:46
Fortunately, wargaming figures are not smartphones or Apple products so as much as GW shareholders might like it you don't have to rush out and buy new ones.

Spider-pope
12-01-2012, 12:01
This is my Ghazgkhull Mag Uruk Thraka (and Makari the Gretchin)

Would you tolerate this, dear warseers?

To be honest, not really no.

Its not that i don't love the old model, because i do, or that i would want to restrict you, but the old mini and the current Ghaz rules dont match up. He's meant to be in mega armour with a power fist, which the old model clearly isn't.

Skarsnik on the other hand is a completely different matter, since the old mini and current mini are both armed same so no confusion there really.

self biased
12-01-2012, 13:08
not sure if OP is a genius troll or painfully na´ve.

Scaryscarymushroom
12-01-2012, 13:38
I've heard that there are one or two models that simply can't be used at most tournaments. The old ork trukks are much smaller than the new ones, and where a new trukk could claim a cover save, the old trukk would be completely obscured from view.

Of course, I've never been to one of these tournaments, so this is hearsay.

If eldar jetbikes were redesigned so that they were twice as tall, twice as long and twice as wide, and flew higher off the ground... then there might be an issue using the old models at a tournament scene.

Wishing
12-01-2012, 13:54
To be honest, not really no.

Its not that i don't love the old model, because i do, or that i would want to restrict you, but the old mini and the current Ghaz rules dont match up. He's meant to be in mega armour with a power fist, which the old model clearly isn't.

Skarsnik on the other hand is a completely different matter, since the old mini and current mini are both armed same so no confusion there really.

I agree with this actually. It is clear from looking at the rules of the respective models that the old model and the new model are not meant to represent the same game entity. They represent the same individual, but differently kitted out. It would be a bit like if we imagined a character that used to be on foot, but in newer rulesets has been changed to be on a bike. Fielding the foot version with the bike version's rules is clearly not very appropriate. Ghazkull in scale armour with a sword is not the same as Ghazkull in mega-armour with a claw.

However, in the case of jetbikes, as long as the models are WYSIWYG as jetbikes and not something else, it is irrelevant what generation of jetbikes they are. Unless there are huge size differences between the models, as mushroom points out.

Hendarion
12-01-2012, 14:34
I wouldn't mind. And why should I? The model is funny, it is lovely, it is officially GW (and not something you made up yourself to get a bonus in shooting range or in TLOS or some other cheating stuff) and it is just a stand-in for something that has rules on paper in a book of paper. WYSIWYG is just another way of saying: "we want you to buy new shiny models" and I don't like that. The old model would be fine by me at any time. Especially if he comes along with Makari!

blackcherry
12-01-2012, 15:13
In the case of old gazakul, perhaps mount him on the same base as his sidekick so he matches at least the base size of the current one. Tournament players are suspicious people and if you are beating one badly, may try and report you for incorrect models, or at the least get some suspicious glances. I've seen worse things happen at tournies (people using stand in models for units GW haven't produced yet have been accused of all sorts of things).

Harwammer
12-01-2012, 15:23
Its not that i don't love the old model, because i do, or that i would want to restrict you, but the old mini and the current Ghaz rules dont match up. He's meant to be in mega armour with a power fist, which the old model clearly isn't.


I wouldn't try to claim that old Ghaz figure represented a model with mega armour... Use it as a nob... or the manager of your Goffik rok band.


Ghazkull in scale armour with a sword is not the same as Ghazkull in mega-armour with a claw.

I think the funniest thing is even back in 2nd edition (when this model was 'apppropriate' for) Ghaz's rules noted Mega Armour although it was very obvious the model wasn't really equiped as such. Oh and it's not just a sword, it's a power sword :P

My view, back in 2nd was you should use a scratchbuilt Ghaz cos the official model wasn't up for the job. Using the same logic I would prefer someone not to use that old model to represent him (even if they updated it by swapping the power sword out for a claw).

Theocracity
12-01-2012, 15:47
Old models are fine, but I think you should still strive to be WYSIWYG. Old Ghaz would be great for a standard Warboss or Nob, but I would hesitate before claiming him as representing the current Ghaz statline.

Azazel
12-01-2012, 15:52
I use the classic Keeper of Secrets Greater Daemon (the one from the 80s). None of my opponents have complained yet, infact a lot of them think its cool.

Angelwing
12-01-2012, 18:23
You certainly can use older models. However, do take the time to point out any possible inconsistencies with your opponent in the pregame chat. Eg if your opponent has never faced Ghaz before, it would be wise to tell them of the current wargear loadout, which doesn't match the old model.
Personally I use the old Ghaz as a nob as I have my own warboss.

colonel kane trine
12-01-2012, 18:36
I think it all comes down to who you play against. I wouldnt mind certain things aslong as they dont bend the rules or make for an unfair advantage.

stroller
12-01-2012, 18:38
Can you use old models? Yes.
Can you use old models in tournaments? Yes, unless the tournament organiser says you can't.

As for for: Tournament players are suspicious people and if you are beating one badly, may try and report you for incorrect models, or at the least get some suspicious glances. that's one reason I don't play tournaments.

Jellicoe
12-01-2012, 19:10
An awful lot of my marine army is old skool and as others have said a simple counts as discussion is normally enough

Only problem I have had is really convincing some of the younger GW staffers that what is on the table really was produced by GW and therefore usable - Bullock Jetcycles to be precise being used as standard bikes.

Kevlar
12-01-2012, 19:13
I use the classic Keeper of Secrets Greater Daemon (the one from the 80s). None of my opponents have complained yet, infact a lot of them think its cool.

I use it too, but I put wings on it and call it a prince. Way too small for a greater demon.

Wishing
12-01-2012, 20:53
I think the funniest thing is even back in 2nd edition (when this model was 'apppropriate' for) Ghaz's rules noted Mega Armour although it was very obvious the model wasn't really equiped as such. Oh and it's not just a sword, it's a power sword :P

I guess the logic behind Ghaz's armour is that back in 2nd ed, the current style of ork mega-armour didn't yet exist (nor did the base size they come with). So if he had mega-armour in 2nd (I'll take your word for that as I don't remember), back then mega-armour just meant quite heavy armour, not the specific blocky exoskeleton thing we know nowadays. :)

Dangersaurus
12-01-2012, 21:10
Use whatever you want. Star Wars minis, papercraft, even flat figures cut out from the box art if you want and your opponent/TO is cool with it. Asking Warseer will just get you a random percentage of yes/no answers that have no bearing on your game.

Alessander
13-01-2012, 00:36
I have a man-sized eldar Avatars on 25mm bases

Lots of space hulk terminators on 25mm bases

Old Ork trukks and dreads

Old ghaz

Mk1 rhinos and predators (and people can pay $50 for a FW upgrade kit to make their new rhino look like mine lol)

Old greater daemons (including the heroquest gargoyle/bloodthirster)

madprophet
13-01-2012, 04:33
I have models dating back to rogue trader! I showed up at a local tourney with an army where the newest model was 1991. Every model in the army was GW except for a few bits in some conversions - and my opponent complained to the judge that I wasn't using GW figs!

Some models were conversions from the fantasy line, others were just really old commissar models from the rogue trader/2nd edition era. I actually had to show the little git the models on the web to prove they were GW :D

There's no school like the old school! Rock on with the classic models!

Harwammer
13-01-2012, 09:40
I guess the logic behind Ghaz's armour is that back in 2nd ed, the current style of ork mega-armour didn't yet exist (nor did the base size they come with). So if he had mega-armour in 2nd (I'll take your word for that as I don't remember), back then mega-armour just meant quite heavy armour, not the specific blocky exoskeleton thing we know nowadays. :)

This is the thing, why I mean it's so silly: Ork characters/nobs had two armour upgrade options: 'Eavy armour (thick armour plates covering the whole body, sometimes powered, providing a 4+ save) and Mega-Armour (which is even heavier, including built in weapons, targeters and a medisquig pack so giving a huge 2+ save with a 4+ unmodified reroll).

Even in 2nd ed mega-armour meant a blocky exo-skeleton (see http://www.solegends.com/citcat1998/1998P387-01.htm). Ghaz's model was just wrong for his entry.

Overall I think the Ghaz model is a bad example for this discussion.

Wishing
13-01-2012, 10:50
Good points. I'm pretty sure that the Ghaz model predates those guys you link to as well, and that mega-armour didn't have a specific look when his model was made, but I agree that original Ghaz just looks like he is wearing lots of layers of clothes, not like he is bedecked in super-armur of any kind.

So the mega-armour thing was most likely just the rules designers deciding that he needed the best kind of armour since he was the supreme leader of orkdom, despite the model not actually wearing it. Silly GW. :)

Born Again
13-01-2012, 11:06
Yep, go ahead and use your old models. Many players will even welcome them.


Yessir.
Old GW is still GW.

Except in those instances where the GW store employee hasn't been playing long enough to remember a time when the Tau didn't exist, and tells you you're not allowed to use other company's models for in-store games.


I agree with this actually. It is clear from looking at the rules of the respective models that the old model and the new model are not meant to represent the same game entity. They represent the same individual, but differently kitted out. It would be a bit like if we imagined a character that used to be on foot, but in newer rulesets has been changed to be on a bike. Fielding the foot version with the bike version's rules is clearly not very appropriate. Ghazkull in scale armour with a sword is not the same as Ghazkull in mega-armour with a claw.


This is kind of a good point though. Ghaz is maybe a bad choice in this instance, as he has changed his equipment over the years. On the one hand it is a model of Ghaz. On the other hand, he doesn't have the power klaw that he should have. But then again, he doesn't really have any options for other weapons, so as long as my opponent made it clear by saying "this is an old model of Ghaz. The model has a sword but in the rules now he has a power klaw" then I'd probably be ok with it.

More difficult situations might be something like Marneus Calgar. If someone had the old model, I'd be more than happy for them to use him as Calgar - but only in power armour. As he has the option of taking Terminator armour now, I'd at least enforce the WYSIWYG of what armour he is in. (Looking now, I see the 'old' Marneus is still available anyway, so I'm sure this might crop up more often than I was expecting!)

theshoveller
13-01-2012, 11:18
I think the funniest thing is even back in 2nd edition (when this model was 'apppropriate' for) Ghaz's rules noted Mega Armour although it was very obvious the model wasn't really equiped as such. Oh and it's not just a sword, it's a power sword :P

My view, back in 2nd was you should use a scratchbuilt Ghaz cos the official model wasn't up for the job. Using the same logic I would prefer someone not to use that old model to represent him (even if they updated it by swapping the power sword out for a claw).
2e mega armour just looked like space marine power armour though...

The original Ghaz model is Rogue Trader-era, if people didn't know. He and Yarrick both came out around the time of the Battle for Armageddon board game (which was what, 1991?). I guess they were immortalised by being referred to throughout the 2e scenario book - they brought out updated rules for Yarrick long before the Imperial Guard codex.

Harwammer
13-01-2012, 11:41
So the mega-armour thing was most likely just the rules designers deciding that he needed the best kind of armour since he was the supreme leader of orkdom, despite the model not actually wearing it. Silly GW. :)

This is probably the crux of it. Many special characters were much more customisable in 2nd so I guess you players could downgrade his mega armour to 'eavy armour if he had access to the armour section of the wargear list.

Haha, this thread has really bought an old bugbear of mine back to life. Stupid non-wysiwyg Ghazza! Shame on you codex-writer for giving him mega-armour!

Perhaps the studio was planning for an updated Ghazzy model to be sculpted but it never precipitated till 3rd ed? Until then you just had to pretend he was wearing a suit of mega-armour under his mega-coat. Le sigh.

Wishing
13-01-2012, 12:33
The original Ghaz model is Rogue Trader-era, if people didn't know. He and Yarrick both came out around the time of the Battle for Armageddon board game (which was what, 1991?). I guess they were immortalised by being referred to throughout the 2e scenario book - they brought out updated rules for Yarrick long before the Imperial Guard codex.

Is it really *that* old? It sounds a bit odd since the concept of special characters didn't exist in Rogue Trader as I recall. But I guess back then he was just a generic ork warboss called Ghazkull, like many of the other special characters who started their careers as generic characters in battle reports.

It is also a good point that the early special characters were often customisable with wargear cards and such, so you had to do some converting to the models anyway if you wanted to equip them with something the model didn't come with and you wanted them to be WYSIWYG.

theshoveller
13-01-2012, 13:16
Is it really *that* old? It sounds a bit odd since the concept of special characters didn't exist in Rogue Trader as I recall. But I guess back then he was just a generic ork warboss called Ghazkull, like many of the other special characters who started their careers as generic characters in battle reports.
There were special characters in Rogue Trader. They all appeared in White Dwarf. Ragnar Blackmane is the earliest one I remember, but I was a mere slip of a lad at the time and Ragnar, Yarrick et al all appeared around the same time.

Remember that Special Characters first started appearing regularly in the WFB army books from 1992 onwards, so it's not really a surprise to see them begin to crop up in 40k during the same period.

Upon checking, Battle for Armageddon came out in 1992 as well.

Wishing
13-01-2012, 13:22
I thought the space wolf guys didn't come out until the SW codex which was in 2nd ed, but now you mention it, I do recall the SW being in WD before 2nd ed, along with introducing the 2nd ed close combat system around the same time. Those were some of the first WD issues I got actually. Ahhh nostalgia. :)

MajorWesJanson
13-01-2012, 13:26
2e mega armour just looked like space marine power armour though...

The original Ghaz model is Rogue Trader-era, if people didn't know. He and Yarrick both came out around the time of the Battle for Armageddon board game (which was what, 1991?). I guess they were immortalised by being referred to throughout the 2e scenario book - they brought out updated rules for Yarrick long before the Imperial Guard codex.

Ghaz was a model from a battle report, with rolled up wargear and a name given. Have to remember the issue of WD. He became more popular and made into an official character and model later, and eventually became what he is now.

Dryaktylus
13-01-2012, 14:21
Ghazghkull was the leader of the sample Goff warband in 'Ere we go! (along with Grotsnik). He had flak armour and a chainsword then. The warbands in Freebooterz contained Badrukk and Nazdreg (with power armour).

Griefbringer
13-01-2012, 15:10
Yep, good old Ghaz first appeared as a leader of a Goff warband (ordinarily generated from the army list) in the 'Ere we go! and there was also a model conversion made for him.

As a special character, Ghaz makes first appearance in WD152, together with Yarrick. They are pretty much the first special characters in 40K, with Ragnar Blackmane and friends showing up in WD issues 156-158.

And when Ghaz first appeared, the ork mega-armour did not even exist in the game (being introduced at some point in 2nd edition). Rather Ghaz was described as being protected by a kustom power armour (though the model does not really look like that, either).

Harwammer
13-01-2012, 16:26
Do you think Ghaz and his kustom power armour / mega-armour is a joke about cinema anti-heroes and their bullet-proof trench coats / dusters?

Grimtuff
14-01-2012, 10:51
Do you think Ghaz and his kustom power armour / mega-armour is a joke about cinema anti-heroes and their bullet-proof trench coats / dusters?

Nope. His name is a play on Margaret Thatcher though... ;)

hazmiter
14-01-2012, 11:06
I would welcome the old ghazzy, why, because he is an old model, and I like them. Hell if some one wanted to field squats as ratlings go for it.... If they want to use the old primarch model as a chapter master or chaos lord, even better.... They have flavour.

Born Again
14-01-2012, 23:55
Flavour? I wouldn't eat them, those old models contain lead :p

hazmiter
15-01-2012, 03:38
Mmmmmm lead.... Tasty.
Nah, I like the old models, they make me realise how cool some are

Leftenant Gashrog
15-01-2012, 14:05
I wouldn't mind. And why should I? The model is funny, it is lovely, it is officially GW (and not something you made up yourself to get a bonus in shooting range or in TLOS or some other cheating stuff) and it is just a stand-in for something that has rules on paper in a book of paper. WYSIWYG is just another way of saying: "we want you to buy new shiny models" and I don't like that. The old model would be fine by me at any time. Especially if he comes along with Makari!

I can't agree with that at all. The whole point of using miniatures instead of post-it notes with "Unit A" "Unit B" "Unit C" etc is that both players should be able to tell what a specific unit is & has by looking at it. If you're playing 40k and your opponent places a unit of Imperial Guard armed with flamers on his left flank you have every right to expect they are armed with flamers not lascannons. If you're playing a WW2 game and your opponent places a platoon of Panzer II's with 20mm guns on his left flank you have every right to assume they are Panzer II's with 20mm guns and not Panzer VI's with 88mm guns. If you're playing a War of the Roses game and your opponent places a unit of peasant archers on his left flank you have every right to assume they are peasant archers and not a unit of heavy cavalry in full plate armour.

Regarding Ghazghkull specifically the WYSIWYG rule - at least in my gaming circle - is typically interpreted to mean upgrades not basic wargear, since the mega-armour, power klaw and big shoota are not upgrades they don't have to be modelled.

Myself I'm pretty open to rationalising not-wysiwyg however, ie: boltguns with big ammo boxes as storm bolters (rationale: interior modification resulting in increased rate of fire necessitating bigger magazine) or using a Multi-Melta for a Heavy Flamer (rationale: modified to wide-beam setting - tho this does have a canon origin), however no matter what wargear it was statted up with upon its release the old Ghazghkull was clearely sculpted after the art for him in Ere We Go, and in Ere We Go Ghazghkull had flak armour, a chainsword and a boltgun and thats just too big a stretch for me to accept, if someone wanted to play a game of RT or 2e with him or wanted to come up with some homebrew 5e rules for him in flak then I'd be up for it, but using the current rules: No way.

Souleater
15-01-2012, 14:15
Okay, how about this.

How would people feel about a player using the first incarnation of Carnifex in their Nid armies. Assume he has two sets of scything talons, possibly Bio-Plasma for old times sake.

It is however, a lot smaller than the current incarnation coming in at roughly the height of a Tyranid Warrior.

Ace Rimmer
15-01-2012, 16:21
The first model for Mega Armoured Nobz was released Feb 1995. The Original Ghaz' was released August 1992.

ForgottenLore
15-01-2012, 17:07
The whole point of using miniatures instead of post-it notes with "Unit A" "Unit B" "Unit C" etc is that both players should be able to tell what a specific unit is & has by looking at it.
Gotta disagree. The whole point of using miniatures is to make it look so amazing that bystanders will come over and watch just because it is so awesomely cool looking.


If clarity was the goal then half inch counters with stats printed on them would be the way to go.

Dryaktylus
15-01-2012, 20:06
Okay, how about this.

How would people feel about a player using the first incarnation of Carnifex in their Nid armies. Assume he has two sets of scything talons, possibly Bio-Plasma for old times sake.

It is however, a lot smaller than the current incarnation coming in at roughly the height of a Tyranid Warrior.

It's the only one I have. And though he's smaller he looks like brutal force incarnate (most picture actually don't display that properly). It's a very compact model and I believe it to tear apart tanks and bunkers with ease.

Reya
15-01-2012, 20:28
Yes you can! I have a very very old set of Scorpions that I still use! Also I actually enjoy the old banshee models more than the new ones.

Angelwing
16-01-2012, 00:18
Okay, how about this.

How would people feel about a player using the first incarnation of Carnifex in their Nid armies. Assume he has two sets of scything talons, possibly Bio-Plasma for old times sake.

It is however, a lot smaller than the current incarnation coming in at roughly the height of a Tyranid Warrior.

My opponents have no problem with my 3. It is what it is. It's equipped correctly for the current game. The only issue is that it's a bit easier to get a cover save for it as it's a little smaller. However I'd say the stuff being used to give it cover would more than likely give a current model cover too.

chromedog
16-01-2012, 01:38
Mmmmmm lead.... Tasty.
Nah, I like the old models, they make me realise how cool some are


Well, lead DOES have a flavour.

It's supposed to be rather a "sweet" one.

Other metals are bitter or tart.

Harwammer
16-01-2012, 18:21
the old Ghazghkull was clearely sculpted after the art for him in Ere We Go, and in Ere We Go Ghazghkull had flak armour, a chainsword and a boltgun and thats just too big a stretch for me to accept

I'm not sure we're talking about the same sculpt. The one I've been looking at carries a power sword and has a bigger gun than a bolter.

Anyway, you're right the model predates the 2nd ed codex; it is pictured in the Wargear book from the starter box. I imagine the model was sculpted based on something more recent than Ere We Go but earlier than the 2nd ed box.

Incidently I've always wondered if the Ghazghkull sculpt being discussed was a resculpt of the Ork Boss Goff 1 (http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2062orkbosses.htm) model. I'm wondering if GW faked the warboss generation rolls in Ere We Go so they could use Goff 1 as the 'Ghazghkull' character they created. Edit: just looked at the artwork on an online library and 'Goff 1' was used as Ghazghkull. Very interesting.

*note the Gazghkull in Ere We Go was called Ghazghkulll Tarknash, though fluff of his origin pretty much matched that of Thraka. I think he took the new name after his accident?

madprophet
17-01-2012, 02:16
My entire army is old figures. I have an entire army of classic Valhallans. No model is newer than 1995. Newest vehicle is 1998.

I've even been accused of not using GW figs at tournament because my IG doesn't look like Cadians or Catachans.