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Akuma
22-04-2006, 09:17
1) Is there anything in BrB saying that i have to charge throught most direct route ???

example - I have a beast heard - with Beastlord and Brayshaman with bears anger - my friend runs big ogre unit 4 wide - then he fails his charge on dogs and I charge him with my hard ( 25% models can make contact so i can charge ) - I put only 5 of my models into contact to make ranks for CR and i put them so his Tyrrant is not tuching any of my models ( in new rules he would get +1CR )

a) It was legal ??? And if not what was wrong with that move ???

2) Gorger charges Hellcannon - in the description of hellcannon there is written that the crew can be next to not in front of it - when this move happens - before or after designating charge route ??? In other words can he charge his gorger only on my crew and not hell cannon ??? And if so what after the 1 turn if my crew lives can i swap one or all of them for hell cannon ( moving in ongoing combat - inside the fighting unit ) ???

Griefbringer
22-04-2006, 10:00
1.) Check out the rules for skirmishers charging into close combat (BRB page 116). Essentially, you will need to move every skirmisher that was within charge range into close combat, you cannot opt to place any of them to the second rank as long as there is a place in the first rank where they could attack the enemy.

2.) Again page 116, skirmishers being charged. Essentially, the gorger would charge the closest model, be that cannon or crew. Then the rest of the unit would be aligned to that first model engaged. Once in combat, you cannot swap the places of the cannon or the crew.

Akuma
22-04-2006, 12:22
So if something has big front like ogres beast heard essetialy wouldnt have ranks ??? Because placing every skirmisher who can make contact with enemy would result in long and not ranked unit ???

Tarax
22-04-2006, 14:38
Yes, that's pretty much it.

At least you're more flexible because your skirmishing; are more difficult to shoot at (-1 to hit when using BS); can Ambush; ...

Griefbringer
22-04-2006, 14:46
So if something has big front like ogres beast heard essetialy wouldnt have ranks ??? Because placing every skirmisher who can make contact with enemy would result in long and not ranked unit ???

Well, with flank charges (if the enemy does not have much depth) you would be doing better.

Also remember that only the guys that are within charge range will be placed in front rank, so if you manage to nibble the situation so that by the time of the charge declaration only the minimum required (25% of the unit or so) are within charge range then you will get a narrower frontage. Not very easy to do in practice, as your enemy will be moving freely.

warlord hack'a
22-04-2006, 22:04
besides, skirmishers don't get a rank bonus anyway..

Major Defense
22-04-2006, 23:35
besides, skirmishers don't get a rank bonus anyway..Beast herds do - but only +2 for two extra ranks. If you buy your beast herds big enough then you should be able to squeeze at least one rank out of any situation.

warlord hack'a
23-04-2006, 19:28
aha, thanks for that info Griefbringer.. Nice that GW made yet another expection to an otherwise already complicated rule.. This adds a nice punch to the beastherds..

Flame
23-04-2006, 19:42
Although it should be pointed out that beast herds technically aint skirmishers- they are raiders.

Da GoBBo
23-04-2006, 21:12
1) Is there anything in BrB saying that i have to charge throught most direct route ???

Nope, not really, but the rules DO say you have to get as many models in CC as possible. If yer movement allows ye to run in circles, you may do so. Their are two requirements though, get as many of your own models in combat as possible, and attack the side which you are facing when beginning your charge. This means your move wasn't really legal, like griefbringer said.

Atrahasis
24-04-2006, 12:51
Nope, not really

Yes, really. Skirmishers always charge in a straight line.

Da GoBBo
24-04-2006, 22:20
fair enough, but it doesn't really have to be the most direct (shortest?) route. I was talking more about rank and file units btw, where it is more clear what I meant.

BloodiedSword
24-04-2006, 23:52
Eh what? I don't get what you're saying. Units must charge in a straight line, and the straight line is the shortest distance between the two units. But even then..

1. The route you take to charge has no effect on which face of the enemy (front, flank, rear) you end up fighting.

2. As soon as any model makes contact with the enemy, you are in combat and must arrange your unit so that as many of your (and, though not by the letter of the law but in the interests of gamesmanship, your opponent's) models are in base contact as possible.

So, given that if you can reach your opponent at all, the route makes absolutely no difference except possibly causing you to fail your charge, I don't get what you're asking.

Festus
25-04-2006, 08:36
Hi

It is not all that easy, BloodiedSword.

Skirmishers must charge in a straight line (this does not necessarily need to be the shortest straight line, although units charging Skirmishers must charge the closest Skirmisher :( )

The enemy's side is determined by your starting position, you are correct. But you have to maximise contact with offensive models during the charge, not afterwards.

*Normal* units may wheel once during a charge and must try to maximise charging models' contact. After the contact of the units, you may make a free wheel to align the units if necessary.

So the route can make quite a lot of difference: Is your hero in b-t-b- contact? Will you be further to the right or the left of the unit - and thus in a better/worse position for overrun or pursuit?
etc.

Greetings
Festus

BloodiedSword
25-04-2006, 20:50
Aha, I think I follow..

So for example, if the set up is something like..

AAAAAAA
HAAAAAA

CCCC
CCCC

where A = normal grunt, H is a hero, the units are close and unit C has enough room to wheel before charging, then the question is whether C can charge just the grunts, engaging the maximum number of models on both sides, and still avoid the enemy Hero getting into combat?

Well, as far as I can see doing so is consistent with the rules for charging, so I'd say yes..

Da GoBBo
26-04-2006, 20:34
Nope, you can't do that. Wheeling during a charge is allowed ONLY when it gets more charging models into CC. The manouvre you describe doesn't get more models into CC so the wheel is not allowed. The main section in the book doesn't point this out clearly btw, but the thinguminy (forgot the name) in the back does.

the_night_reaper
26-04-2006, 22:42
1) I always thought you had to charge into the unit and then center the 2 units.

2) The gorger would have to charge the unit. Normally in combat a warmachine crew wouldline up and fight infront of the warmachine but in the special case of the hell cannon, they fight beside it.
In short the gorger would have to be engaged with the hellcannon.

momfreeek
27-04-2006, 05:40
Its a big crazy daemon. Its not gonna hide behind a couple of chaos dwarves.

About the skimisher thing. It doesn't say they have to move in a straight line as far as I can see. Consider this:

.S..S... S= skirmisher, E=enemy, O=boulder
...OO...
..........
EEEEE..

Can both the skirmishers charge? I believe so. Only one model has to be able to see to be able to charge and I couldn't find anything about a straight line. Maybe I'm wrong. It says "All models within charge reach are moved individually towards their foe and arranged into a fighting line".

Festus
27-04-2006, 06:54
Hi

Nope, you can't do that. Wheeling during a charge is allowed ONLY when it gets more charging models into CC. The manouvre you describe doesn't get more models into CC so the wheel is not allowed. The main section in the book doesn't point this out clearly btw, but the thinguminy (forgot the name) in the back does.

talking about ongoing discussions...

the tacticalwheel is still highly debated: I'd say yay, others will say nay.

Greetings
Festus

Da GoBBo
27-04-2006, 09:06
talking about ongoing discussions...

yes, I gues it is :angel: We'v had a long debate about this particular problem and the outcome is what I'v written above. At least, that's what I thought



the tacticalwheel is still highly debated: I'd say yay, others will say nay.


Glad you agree, that counts for a lot to me. I admit, the main section is very unclear, but the bestiary(?) is really clear and straight to the point.