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Lester
16-01-2012, 03:53
If you get two -1 hit modifiers, and your opponent hits on 5+, will they hit?
Before someone says "6 are auto passes", tell me where it is in the book? Only auto passes and fails I've seen mentioned are on characteric tests and saves.

Wraith86
16-01-2012, 04:24
Rulebook Pg.50, Rolling to hit - 3rd paragraph 2nd Sentence;

"Sometimes modifiers apply to these rolls, but a natural dice score of 6 always hits and a natural dice roll of 1 always misses.

I flew by it twice before i spotted it.

Lester
16-01-2012, 04:25
Rulebook Pg.50, Rolling to hit - 3rd paragraph 2nd Sentence;

"Sometimes modifiers apply to these rolls, but a natural dice score of 6 always hits and a natural dice roll of 1 always misses.

I flew by it twice before i spotted it.
Thanks. :)

NitrosOkay
16-01-2012, 04:29
Dread Knight, Zombie Dragon, Gliterring Scales, Beguile, Aura of Dark Majesty would be funny.


Weapon skill up to 9 would hit on 6's and if they fail a leadership test at -4 they have to re-roll successful to hit rolls.

Only Bloodthirsters, Fencer's Blades and that Light spell would hit on 5's?

SideshowLucifer
16-01-2012, 05:23
..and that cannon that would remove the dragon and rider would hit just fine still :p

NitrosOkay
16-01-2012, 05:25
..and that cannon that would remove the dragon and rider would hit just fine still :p

Majority of armies don't have cannons!

SideshowLucifer
16-01-2012, 05:29
Yeah, but we like to fixate on the ones that manage to kill our monsters on the first turn and then generalize that into all armies kill large monsters on the first turn of the game so they suck (yes, this is sarcasm)

Wraith86
16-01-2012, 05:34
I like my s'tank all the joys of cannon (ok the diet coke of cannons) with the pleasure of up to 5d3 impact hit in combat XD

T10
16-01-2012, 06:02
Yeah, but we like to fixate on the ones that manage to kill our monsters on the first turn and then generalize that into all armies kill large monsters on the first turn of the game so they suck (yes, this is sarcasm)

Hell yeah.

-T10

sulla
16-01-2012, 09:12
Dread Knight, Zombie Dragon, Gliterring Scales, Beguile, Aura of Dark Majesty would be funny.


Weapon skill up to 9 would hit on 6's and if they fail a leadership test at -4 they have to re-roll successful to hit rolls.

Only Bloodthirsters, Fencer's Blades and that Light spell would hit on 5's?Most times the dragon is an easier target in VC lord/zombie dragon comboes. Most models ignore the rider to target thte dragon and crumble the rider.

NitrosOkay
16-01-2012, 09:16
Well the Zombie Dragon gained 1 toughness and 1 wound from previously, and if whatever nasty thing it's fighting failed its beguile test (-4 to leadership) it has to re-roll successful to hit rolls.

Considering how cheap the Zombie Dragon became I think it might see a lot more use.

N1AK
16-01-2012, 12:33
Yeah, but we like to fixate on the ones that manage to kill our monsters on the first turn and then generalize that into all armies kill large monsters on the first turn of the game so they suck (yes, this is sarcasm)

Empire, Dwarves, Ogres, Bret (trebs), O&G (stonethrowers), TK (Skull catapults), Skaven (Warp Lightning Cannon), WOC (Hellcannon) that's 8 armies with a cannon or effective equivalent.

Most others have other effective close alternatives:
Daemons: Flamers
Lizardmen: Skinks with poison

Really it is only DE, HE, Wood Elves and us that don't have an excellent shooting counter to monsters. DE/HE will have the magic/shooting to deal with it anyway. So if you draw a WE army without 70+ BS4 bows (with no move+shoot penalty) or VC you'll probably not have to worry about being shot off turn 1 or 2.

jtrowell
16-01-2012, 12:53
Note that stone throwers are not as effective as canons, they get a much greater chance to miss the target, and only the rider *or* the mount is hit by the high-strength/muti wound hit, the other only get a (usually) standard S3 hit (and even a trebuchet will only do a S5 hit, no great risk for a monster or a fighty lord)

It's the fact that canons hit bith targets at full strength, combined with the fact that they only scatter forward or backward where other warmachines can deviate in all directions and/or need a roll to hit, that make the canons so effective.

A common houserule is to have canon hit randomize the "main" target of the canonball like for stone throwers, and have only this target get the multiwound effect, meaning that a canon will still have a great chance to kill the mount *or* the target and wound the other, but without being twice as effective against mounted monsters that they are against normal monsters (and canons are already *very* effective against such targets)

ihavetoomuchminis
16-01-2012, 13:23
Zombie Dragon has 6 wounds, the rider has 3 wounds and can be equipped with a 4+ ward save. The dragon flies, so it's easy to have it engaged in turn 2. The lore attribute can heal both of them. I don't think it's easy to kill a zombie dragon with a cannon.

Mid'ean
16-01-2012, 14:02
While not easy. Can be done. Just ask my last WE opponent. Ancient Treeman. He thought " Hey, 6 wounds should live at least till I can heal him next turn with LoLife. One cannon shot later and a 6 on wound roll and splinters flying everywhere, dead treeman...:shifty:...:evilgrin:

Archon Deloth Vyrr
16-01-2012, 14:27
While not easy. Can be done. Just ask my last WE opponent. Ancient Treeman. He thought " Hey, 6 wounds should live at least till I can heal him next turn with LoLife. One cannon shot later and a 6 on wound roll and splinters flying everywhere, dead treeman...:shifty:...:evilgrin:

Yes but this will only occur 1/6 of the time. Your just as likely to deal only 1 wound as you are to deal 6.

Also, Treemen can't fly and thus have a more difficult time reaching good areas of cover.

What a lot of people seem to forget with big beasties is that drawing LOS to the creature isn't what you want to do. No one wants to shoot directly at the monster, they want to shoot the ground in front of it. Good positioning and use of cover (much easier when you fly) means that cannon, while perfectly able to see the Dragon, cannot draw LOS to the point in the ground 8" in front of said dragon.

Also, Stone Thowers are not reliable Dragon hunters. Yes they can hit, or only scatter 2" and still have the hole over the monster, but more likely they will either miss completely or scatter enough to only deal the str 3 (str 5) hit to the dragon.

ihavetoomuchminis
16-01-2012, 16:39
Buildings work wonders in protecting monsters. ^_^

Scalebug
16-01-2012, 18:25
While not easy. Can be done. Just ask my last WE opponent. Ancient Treeman. He thought " Hey, 6 wounds should live at least till I can heal him next turn with LoLife. One cannon shot later and a 6 on wound roll and splinters flying everywhere, dead treeman...:shifty:...:evilgrin:

Also, isn't the Treeman Ancient a character? And because of that not eligble for "regrowth" healing? Or your opponent was counting on getting several other life spells through and healing wounds one at a time?

sulla
16-01-2012, 22:15
Or your opponent was counting on getting several other life spells through and healing wounds one at a time?
A better way of doing it that throwing all your dice at a single healing spell, anyway. Just ask VC players which was better; a single big healing spell or lots of little ones...

At least VC are better able to deal with artillery in this edition that their last book. That plus the new crumbling rule mean I think you will see a few more zombie dragons and terrorgeist riding ghould kings now. Definately a better option than in the past 2 editions of the game.

The bearded one
16-01-2012, 23:32
Most others have other effective close alternatives:
Daemons: Flamers

flamers? those str4 potshots as a monstercounter?

PeG
17-01-2012, 08:00
My biggest problem with taking dragons or other large mounts is that they cost to many points from my ususally very limited lords budget. Rather than taking a dragon for my combat lord I usually would chose to take a second lord.

NitrosOkay
17-01-2012, 08:03
My biggest problem with taking dragons or other large mounts is that they cost to many points from my ususally very limited lords budget. Rather than taking a dragon for my combat lord I usually would chose to take a second lord.

I think the Zombie Dragon is costed appropriately. It's dramatically cheaper than in the last book and gained 1T and 1W into the bargain.

Lester
17-01-2012, 17:09
I think the Zombie Dragon is costed appropriately. It's dramatically cheaper than in the last book and gained 1T and 1W into the bargain.
But lost 2 WS too. Bargain, I don't think, but I agree it is appropriately costed.

Wesser
17-01-2012, 17:18
Problem is that it's cloud of flies only works in base contact.... be wary of charging that greatsword horde:) Same applies to Nightshroud...both are short of awesome and are just useful

Wraith86
17-01-2012, 19:17
Same applies to Nightshroud...both are short of awesome and are just useful

How is Nightshrough not awesome causes swordmasters and white lions to lose GW strength and strike at initative.

Wesser
17-01-2012, 20:18
How is Nightshrough not awesome causes swordmasters and white lions to lose GW strength and strike at initative.

Front rank only...only rly awesome against swordmasters

NitrosOkay
17-01-2012, 20:21
Front rank only...only rly awesome against swordmasters

Get in a challenge or charge from the flank ideally.

Spider
17-01-2012, 21:16
I was thinking of trying out dragon/glittering scales.

A couple of editions ago the Cursed Book gave a -1 to hit, and it was great.

The biggest problem now is bloody Twilight.

Glittering vampires. No way.

Even if you win a game, all you oponent has to do is declare you Team Edward and you lose.

Bloody Twilight.

10_minute_pie
17-01-2012, 21:50
Wow, +10 to Spider's comment. Spider, you just won the Rules forum for the day.

Lester
17-01-2012, 22:17
Wow, +10 to Spider's comment. Spider, you just won the Rules forum for the day.
I've heard the pun on VampireCounts.net before. One or two days ago I believe.
Edit: Here - http://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-The-Zombie-Dragon--17677?pid=234580#pid234580

Kloud13
18-01-2012, 06:00
Yes but this will only occur 1/6 of the time. Your just as likely to deal only 1 wound as you are to deal 6.

Also, Treemen can't fly and thus have a more difficult time reaching good areas of cover.

What a lot of people seem to forget with big beasties is that drawing LOS to the creature isn't what you want to do. No one wants to shoot directly at the monster, they want to shoot the ground in front of it. Good positioning and use of cover (much easier when you fly) means that cannon, while perfectly able to see the Dragon, cannot draw LOS to the point in the ground 8" in front of said dragon.

Also, Stone Thowers are not reliable Dragon hunters. Yes they can hit, or only scatter 2" and still have the hole over the monster, but more likely they will either miss completely or scatter enough to only deal the str 3 (str 5) hit to the dragon.

Have you seen the size of the base of the Zombie Dragon/Terrorgist??????? Anything can hit that. it's ridiculous.

And Furthermore, how many players that can take cannons, only take 1 cannon in a list?

vardek_4
18-01-2012, 21:37
I don't understand the fear for cannons.

The only thing you need to do is stick the monster behind a wall or some impassable terrain and the cannonball will stop automaticaly no matter what size your monster is.

So fly from terrain to terrain until you reach and destroy it, it's not hard.

Magic on the other side, that's what is dangerous.

sulla
22-01-2012, 22:25
I don't understand the fear for cannons.

The only thing you need to do is stick the monster behind a wall or some impassable terrain and the cannonball will stop automaticaly no matter what size your monster is.

So fly from terrain to terrain until you reach and destroy it, it's not hard.

Magic on the other side, that's what is dangerous.
I'm guessing you pick your terrain rather than rolling on the table in the BRB?

vardek_4
22-01-2012, 23:22
Well my scenery is rather limited, I only have a building, 2 forests, 2 hills and a set of walls, so we always use them all. Also, some scenery from that table makes the game unbalanced. We only use basic scenery. No frenzy towers, no light rivers, nothing crazy like that.

Anyway it's not hard to get some walls or impassable terrain from that table, so usually you should get some in every game to hide your dragons.

sulla
23-01-2012, 02:54
Well my scenery is rather limited, I only have a building, 2 forests, 2 hills and a set of walls, so we always use them all. Also, some scenery from that table makes the game unbalanced. We only use basic scenery. No frenzy towers, no light rivers, nothing crazy like that.

Anyway it's not hard to get some walls or impassable terrain from that table, so usually you should get some in every game to hide your dragons.You're not wrong about the unbalanced game from the wierd scenery.

The other problem is there is no guarantee of rolling what you want, even if it is a common item. I took the woodwakers wand in Storm of magic and failed to roll a single wood (7 on 2d6) in 10 pieces of terrain. :( In a recent game, we rolled a river, 2 settlements and 5 buildings! Great if I had been playing against cannons, but unfortunately I was playing against WoC who promptly rolled +1 attack on his frenzied halberd wielding tzeentch warriors. I didn't dare hop in a single building unless I wanted to be assaulted by 40 ws5 s5 attacks... The random tables can make games fairly one sided.

I'm thinking of toning it down slightly as a houserule. I think random generation but set table edges is best, so you can set up the pieces you roll to your army's advantage (a good general should fight on ground favourable to him) without the hassle of shifting tablesides if you lose. Other than that, the only things I really dislike about the random table are mysterious forests and woods. These should only be mysterious on a 6 IMO, or else there would be no wood elves or beastmen alive in the warhammer world...

Wesser
23-01-2012, 09:33
Have you seen the size of the base of the Zombie Dragon/Terrorgist??????? Anything can hit that. it's ridiculous.

And Furthermore, how many players that can take cannons, only take 1 cannon in a list?

Well, do what I do and spend 5 pts. on a Charmed shield. Discount first hit. Character is saved. Okay Dragon may take a pounding but is unlikely to die. Also it can be healed in your own turn and next turn that Zombie Dragon oughta be in combat.

Note: My group plays Curse of Undeath can heal anything, so the argument may be different for others.

Of course taking Charmed shield precludes using Nightshroud or Glittering scales, but all 3 are interesting choices against most opponents.

Morax
23-01-2012, 18:34
Sure you can take walls and buildings as terrain but they are static, I'd much rather take a mobile wall. In order to protect the dragon from cannon balls, take a note from an organized chaos player, trolls, or in the Vamp Counts case, crypt horrors. A cannon ball that passes through a unit of monsterous infantry or cavalry must KILL the model to procede through. If it does not the cannon ball stops dead and no further damage is done. With 3 wounds you have a 45.2% chance of living with just one model. With two your chance of soaking the damage is 68.5%. Thats not factoring in the regen assuming the worst and they have flaming cannnon balls. Not too shabby for a lord on dragon. It makes it even worse that the crypt horrors are not vampiric so can be brought back with a max of 6 wounds per casting of invocation. This makes them an extremely effective shield for the lord on dragon and with movement 6 they don't slow him down all that much. You could field him sideways so that the cannonball has an even smaller chance of hitting him but that may limit charge arcs.

Just something to think on.

sulla
24-01-2012, 17:45
I think Vampires are the best current book for taking lords on large monsters. You can take 6 wound terrorgeists of single 3 wound vargheists to fly in front of the dragon to act as shields, plus, those models are capable of healing. VC have the best flying circus in 8th edition IMO.

Lord Inquisitor
24-01-2012, 18:03
I would love to get a Zombie Dragon to work. Not convinced just yet.

I don't have my book on me but I was under the impression character mounts can't be healed? Even the Lore Attribute is ambiguous. It seems that healing back characters is going to be much harder with the new book.

sulla
25-01-2012, 07:15
I would love to get a Zombie Dragon to work. Not convinced just yet.

I don't have my book on me but I was under the impression character mounts can't be healed? Even the Lore Attribute is ambiguous. It seems that healing back characters is going to be much harder with the new book.I don't see anything ambiguous in the attribute at all. Healing is not ressurecting so the restrictions don't come into play and even if they did, 'Wizard (or another friendly model within 12") is pretty explicit permission.

Regardless of that, having the ability to take a monster-lord and two terrorgeists/ one 'geist + some blood knights, plus vanguarding dogs and either etheral hexwraiths or flying vargheists is an attractive prospect to me. Might not be as powerful as a great weapon deathstar with zombie horde flank guards but I bet it would be a bucket of fun to play... and nightshroud does a lot to combat the current powerbuild of greatweapon hordes.

Lord Inquisitor
25-01-2012, 17:55
I'll go back to the book later and check the wording but how does "(or another friendly model within 12")" give explicit allowance for characters? Characters are models but all models aren't characters. It gives exception for the Wizard but not for another model within 12". Now don't get me wrong I think that's probably the intent but they really buggered it up. It would have been so much better to add the prohibition against adding wounds to characters to the spells or abilities in question instead of making a prohibition requiring exceptions. Classic GW rules-writing, instead of making specific rules exceptions as required, they make a general rule that needs to be excepted to get back to the default rules. It's pretty rare that this sort of rubbish doesn't result in a slip-up requiring an errata.

Probably the worst of the 8th edition books for sloppily written rules. If I can find half a dozen crappily-written rules on even the first read-through that's pretty annoying. It's not Skaven bad but it's pretty bad compared with Ogres, for example (although even then making the "mounted parry" an army-wide rule in an army with only one unit of cavalry seemed silly).

That said, getting back on topic, you have a point I think. Vargheists or other monsters could be used to block cannons shooting at a mounted dragon. No other army has had flying monstrous infantry (apart from Brets I suppose), so you could use 6 Vargheists to try and catch cannonballs. Not a sure-fire way of protecting it because due to the large base size you overshoot them and hit the dragon directly but it might help.