PDA

View Full Version : Horde crypt horros - viable?



rocdocta
16-01-2012, 20:37
in 2250pts for a tourney list i am thinking of taking 16 of these guys. As i see it, it would be very hard to destroy the unit. I mean T5, regen 5+ and can be reraised. a rock hard unit that can go toe to toe with most units! any thoughts on this or is it sheer folly? I also play OKs as well...

Lord Dan
16-01-2012, 20:43
As with any deathstar army it's going to be hit-and-miss. Regen isn't as powerful as it used to be with the number of flaming things out and about these days, and especially so given that taking a single flaming would means you aren't able to regenerate for the rest of the phase. I haven't seen the new army book but I assume they haven't changed the rule that monstrous infantry and cavalry only get a single would restored per successful invocation, and as you now can't spam invocation they don't seem to be all that easy to raise.

How many points would the unit be? What is their movement rate, and what kind of opponents do you typically go up against?

rocdocta
16-01-2012, 20:49
they have 3 attacks, M6, T5, regen 5+, poison. they are healed as 1+ the casters level so a lvl4 can heal 5 points per cast.
they would cost 608 points. expensive but will stick around.

if i didnt take these i would take a horde ghoul unit.

i am usually vs skaven, empire, WoC, some OK. i will put my list up in the list section to make it easier.

Caelas
16-01-2012, 20:53
Do you feel confident in defending against magic?

rocdocta
16-01-2012, 21:13
Do you feel confident in defending against magic?

well...i have a...scroll...:shifty:

purple sun is the only real concern that i have. but having said that, i can raise 10 wounds back a turn with 3 casters if they dont get dispelled.

the magic that would hurt:
- PS - no defence besides killing the mage or scrolling it. but i can raise so not too bad
- magic misssiles - most are S4 so really 2d6 = 7 = about 3 wounds. vs no flaming that drops to 2 wounds.
- dwellers - 1/3 die - thats 5 models. i can theoretically raise 10 wounds a turn back.
- Shadow and death spells that reduce S or T concern me but i will scroll or dispell what i can.

pointyteeth
16-01-2012, 21:18
I'd add Flame Cage and a couple other spells to the list...

I might use a Crypt Horror horde a couple of times for fun and kicks, but not something I'd make a standard. I will certainly use a unit of 6 most of the time though.

Caelas
16-01-2012, 21:20
Purple sun, pit of shades, gateway.... I just think it's too many eggs in one basket. In a tournament people will avoid your deathstar and eat away the rest of your army, including your characters. That's the problem with MI deathstars, you can't put characters in the unit.

w3rm
16-01-2012, 21:22
18 Crypt Horrors are going to be incredibly hard to deal with. I think it will become a new tournament standard honestly.

Lord Dan
16-01-2012, 21:35
Remember too that it only takes a single wound from a flaming attack and then everything becomes scary.

thesheriff
16-01-2012, 22:11
Remember too that it only takes a single wound from a flaming attack and then everything becomes scary.

....for that phase.

Unless you face a gunline, you should be alright.

Skywave
16-01-2012, 22:12
18 Crypt Horrors are going to be incredibly hard to deal with. I think it will become a new tournament standard honestly.

Same feeling. They just look too good for the point value, pretty sure it'll be the next "deathstar" for VC instead of the old Grave Guards.

Less than 40pts for those stats and abilities is insane.

ihavetoomuchminis
16-01-2012, 22:23
Same feeling. They just look too good for the point value, pretty sure it'll be the next "deathstar" for VC instead of the old Grave Guards.

Less than 40pts for those stats and abilities is insane.

I must say i agree. they are maybe the only one unit that seems a no-brainer choice in the new book. Too cheap for what they do. It seems GW wants to sell many boxes of them.

valle
16-01-2012, 23:51
Same feeling. They just look too good for the point value, pretty sure it'll be the next "deathstar" for VC instead of the old Grave Guards.

Less than 40pts for those stats and abilities is insane.

I run with 8 in a 2500p army, and they only cost 314 its not even that expensive so there is more than enough for a few other options as well.

Kalandros
17-01-2012, 00:21
They made them that cheap for people to buy a massive amount of new models.

:3

My Orcs & Goblins would be worried about that horde - I would definitely need my 100 NG Tarpit against them (yay for nets) as my other combat blocks wouldn't enjoy the fight - even my Troll Horde (35 pt model dude!) wouldn't like it, I think... Not sure how many attacks each ghoul has - whats their WS, A and I? If I2 I can take them on with flaming big'uns or black orcs but still take quite a beating at the same time.

The only way a block of 10 trolls managed to beat a flaming block of chaos warriors was when I managed to reduce their I to 1 with my lil gobbo magic :D

Shadowsinner
17-01-2012, 00:26
dont forget to plut an engine behind them so they get the standard 4+ regen. add light or shadow magic and theres the game right there

Skywave
17-01-2012, 00:49
They made them that cheap for people to buy a massive amount of new models.

:3

My Orcs & Goblins would be worried about that horde - I would definitely need my 100 NG Tarpit against them (yay for nets) as my other combat blocks wouldn't enjoy the fight - even my Troll Horde (35 pt model dude!) wouldn't like it, I think... Not sure how many attacks each ghoul has - whats their WS, A and I? If I2 I can take them on with flaming big'uns or black orcs but still take quite a beating at the same time.

The only way a block of 10 trolls managed to beat a flaming block of chaos warriors was when I managed to reduce their I to 1 with my lil gobbo magic :D

You can go on GW webstie (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440005a&prodId=prod1460006a) and look at the profile on their product page. For only 3pts more than a regular Troll.

Kalandros
17-01-2012, 00:57
Oh not so scary anymore, just reverse-trolls (odd thing to say on the internet).
O:

I can handle a horde of it :3

AmaroK
17-01-2012, 00:57
in 2250pts for a tourney list i am thinking of taking 16 of these guys. As i see it, it would be very hard to destroy the unit. I mean T5, regen 5+ and can be reraised. a rock hard unit that can go toe to toe with most units! any thoughts on this or is it sheer folly? I also play OKs as well...


16 Crypt Horrors w/ champ works out as a steal. 618pts for that amount of T5, Poisened, Regen' Ogres will sacre the sh1t out of anything.

Even with flaming attacks through the banner, when attached to a bowman unit, there still woudning on 6's. And in combat, your probably going to hit back harder.

I think they are incredibly viable :D.

thesheriff


18 Crypt Horrors are going to be incredibly hard to deal with. I think it will become a new tournament standard honestly.


Same feeling. They just look too good for the point value, pretty sure it'll be the next "deathstar" for VC instead of the old Grave Guards.

Less than 40pts for those stats and abilities is insane.

On the paper, it sounds pretty awesome to get the best stats/point cost efficient troop of the book and make a supersized unit of it, but... it really worth it?

In 2225/2500 lists of VS, a 618 points unit of 18 Crypts horror has to be added to the (about) 600 points of mandatory basic troops. You have to add on top of that 600 to 800 points on characters on average. Also, you will want a Mortis Engine (200ish) to synergize with your horrors... And thats it, points are gone. Where are the standards for Blood and Glory scenario? Where are the redirectors/chaff units? Where are your characters in? Do that unit hold to flank charges or can make swift reforms?

So, to answer my first question, no it doesn´t worth it. It would only work in a 1 big horde vs 1 big horde scenario, and not always (there are many though units around) A smaller unit like Valle said (6 to 8) sounds more reasonable, leaving points for other units that could make a better synergy with horrors than just supersizing them. But hey, just an opinion :D

Ratbeast
17-01-2012, 01:01
They are an extremely good choice, i was also thinking that a horde back up by mortis engine would be a mainstay in most tourn list, flaming attacks are a worry, but unlike other things with regen, horrors get get healed pretty fast, and unlike the cousins the varghiest, recover more then 1 wound per casting, one of the best choices in the new book..

Lilike
17-01-2012, 02:11
They are definitely extremely potent for what they cost, one of the best MI in the game right now if not the best.

ihavetoomuchminis
17-01-2012, 02:27
They are definitely extremely potent for what they cost, one of the best MI in the game right now if not the best.

I think Maneaters have something to say there ;). Better stats, impact hits, and customization for a few points more. And with magic support they can become real beasts (Crypt horrors too, i accept that. Re-roll to hit and to wound in those creatures is a HUGE bonus)

Reticent
17-01-2012, 05:13
I think Maneaters have something to say there ;). Better stats, impact hits, and customization for a few points more.

Maneaters ARE better per model, but Crypt Horrors are MUCH more points efficient, especially after Maneaters pay for their gear and unit upgrades. It isn't uncommon for a given Maneater to cost 27pts more than a Crypt Horror.

NitrosOkay
17-01-2012, 05:31
They're competing against Horde Grave Guard with Great Weapons in the special hammer slot. You can have almost 4 Grave Guard for the same cost, who will probably kill more things and have more utility.

Crypt Horrors would be better at holding things up with their T5 though.

Caelas
17-01-2012, 08:24
Why does everyone forget about the 25pt flaming banner so fast? GG were effective because they didn't have a major weakness and could be supported by characters in the same unit. These are not the new filth.

Daniel36
17-01-2012, 08:32
Nobody seems to have mentioned how incredibly bloody awesome it will look!! :D
I'd say just do it, try it out, and come back to tell us the tales of your victories or defeats.

Valaraukar
17-01-2012, 09:06
Skaven will be a nasty match up for these guys. Big slave block in the front then go to town with their warpfire throwers on the ghouls whilst their pinned in place, S5 flaming D3 wounds flame templates are not your friend :-/

Aluinn
17-01-2012, 09:11
They are good, but I wouldn't recommend deathstar units to anyone at the best of times. There are too many vulnerabilities, from characteristic test spells (this focus on Purple Sun, which isn't even all that common IME, misses the fact that Shadow Magic is extremely popular and a powered-up Pit of Shades is pretty much equally bad for them, never mind that Dwellers will kill enough of them--average 6/18 per resolution--to still be brutally punishing) to simple avoidance. And, though removing their Regen certainly doesn't make them extremely fragile, it is something that you're paying for on these models which most people will be able to counter, especially when all your eggs are sitting in that basket and if they deal with it they pretty much have the game won. Many other elite units can and will beat them if their Regen is taken away, regardless of the fact that T5 is still pretty good, and then they're going to be crumbling pretty quickly from Unstable especially at a disadvantage in static CR--they'll oft lose a full model to that deficit alone.

But again, Crypt Horrors are not bad. I'd just advise anyone to avoid spending more than 600 points on a single unit as a general rule, unless it is somehow protected from magic and also very fast, and Crypt Horrors are really neither of those things.

If you really look closely at them, they're not superior to Grave Guard by much in terms of combat power, and they have more counters, hard or soft, due to low initiative and the removability of Regen. (Most competitive builds will be able to get rid of it for either the magic or shooting phase and the combat phase when there's a single priority target.)


Why does everyone forget about the 25pt flaming banner so fast? GG were effective because they didn't have a major weakness and could be supported by characters in the same unit. These are not the new filth.

Apologies for being a little pedantic, but Banner of Eternal Flame is actually less than half that cost! But really I wanted to agree: Grave Guard in the old book were in part good because of Regen from Drakenhof banner, it is true, but they also had Helm (and, less importantly, but still, an armor save) to back them up if their Regen was taken off, and all in all, with the magic changes, GG were and continue to be easier to heal with Invocation than Crypt Horrors.

Remember that only one of your Invocations is liable to heal them for 5 wounds, whilst the rest will be healing for, probably, 2, and your opponent can certainly focus on dispelling the Invocation from your level 4 to shut down the greater part of it with respect to Crypt Horrors.

Skywave
17-01-2012, 09:21
Why does everyone forget about the 25pt flaming banner so fast? GG were effective because they didn't have a major weakness and could be supported by characters in the same unit. These are not the new filth.

They are still MI with T5, that's quite though in it's own right.


But again, Crypt Horrors are not bad. I'd just advise anyone to avoid spending more than 600 points on a single unit as a general rule, unless it is somehow protected from magic and also very fast, and Crypt Horrors are really neither of those things.

For 600pts you get about 16 Crypt Horrors, pretty damn close to a full horde of them.

Aluinn
17-01-2012, 09:37
For 600pts you get about 16 Crypt Horrors, pretty damn close to a full horde of them.

Right, but I think my point stands that there are ample counters to the unit which are quite common. I'm not going to go through and list them all, but suffice it to say that if that unit is fighting a large-ish elite unit with Flaming attacks to the front and is flanked, it will probably be beaten very badly, and that really is not especially difficult to pull off, again when focusing on defeating this one unit is probably going to win an opponent the game because the VC army is just going to lack meaningful offensive power when it's gone.

It's not like Ogres where if you kill that horde of Bulls (which anyway is cheaper by a good margin than the horde of Horrors), you're still threatened by pretty much everything else in the list; VC Core is weak (even Ghouls aren't especially powerful for their points any longer), and VC also have to invest a lot of points into characters, many of those going towards ensuring a solid magic phase.

I think 8-10 Crypt Horrors are good and more is overkill unless you're playing 3,000+ points, in which case you can actually have enough threats beyond the horde of Crypt Horrors so that, if they're focused and dealt with, you're still working towards a win meanwhile and afterwards.

NitrosOkay
17-01-2012, 09:38
For 600pts you get about 16 Crypt Horrors, pretty damn close to a full horde of them.

16 horrors or 43 Grave Guard with great weapons, full command and banner of the barrows.

I'll take the Grave Guard sadly, as threatening as that massive strength 4 poisoned is.

ihavetoomuchminis
17-01-2012, 10:31
I think it is better to deploy 2 or 3 6 man units.

The Low King
17-01-2012, 12:58
Flaming banner will only be on one unit. If that is a missile unit then chances are they are wounding on 6s....if on a combat unit you can avoid it.

OldMaster
17-01-2012, 15:58
Yay. Gateway. =D

So just fill your cores up with regular Ghouls, then? 2 Hordes of Ghouls to flank your Horde of Big Ghouls.. yeaah.

The Irongut deathstar is still scarier though.

Malorian
17-01-2012, 16:01
Flaming banner will only be on one unit. If that is a missile unit then chances are they are wounding on 6s....if on a combat unit you can avoid it.

Or just beat it in combat.

I have people come at my troll horde with flaming banners all the time. They just don't realize that even without regen they won't do many wounds to me and I'll do a LOT back to him.

Caelas
17-01-2012, 16:54
Flaming banner will only be on one unit. If that is a missile unit then chances are they are wounding on 6s....if on a combat unit you can avoid it.

Avoid it with the frontage of a block of MI? I don't think so! Taking a deathstar sacrifices movement and deployments, your opponent will be outmaneuvering you if he/she is anything short of (no pun intended) dwarves.

The Low King
17-01-2012, 17:02
So send a unit to tie it up? you have an army full of unbreakable troops that can be raised, it is not difficult to take a single unit out the game

thesheriff
17-01-2012, 17:08
16 horrors or 43 Grave Guard with great weapons, full command and banner of the barrows.

I'll take the Grave Guard sadly, as threatening as that massive strength 4 poisoned is.

The Crypt horrors are SOOO much more durable. T5 with more wounds AND regen is too good IMO. sure less damage output, But ALOT harder to shift.

Malorian
17-01-2012, 17:33
Why pick? Take a horde of each! :D

Lord Inquisitor
17-01-2012, 17:41
Crypt Horrors look amazing really. As an Ogre player I know my MI and I can say if these guys were available in an Ogre army I'd take them in a shot at their points cost. They're only 6 points more than an Ogre with an Ironfist! For those 6 points you get a 5+ regen (pretty much equivalent to the 'fist), +1T and poisoned attacks. Um, yes please.

I think a horde will be an excellent core of your army - sure, pit and psun will hurt but they should be able to take it, particularly since you can raise them back. I also think a unit of about 8 is going to be easier to attain financially and still hit like a ton of bricks for much less points.

The only real downside to them is, like ghouls, they can't take a banner.

AmaroK
17-01-2012, 17:46
Or just beat it in combat.

I have people come at my troll horde with flaming banners all the time. They just don't realize that even without regen they won't do many wounds to me and I'll do a LOT back to him.

You can have a troll horde (mostly an anvil) because you use other hard hitting hordes as well (mostly hammers). Those others hordes can hold the needed banners for Blood and Glory scenario reliably. They can always march (unless they have animosity) and can support better each other. And you can have awesome chaff/redirecting units/unique ones (mangler squig, im looking at you) to make them win the movement phase. Also, you have war machines (I know you are not so fond on them, but they can do wonders).

Now, for VCs, its not exactly the same, and Ill repeat what I said in my first post in this thread, and that most of the people is not taking into account:


In 2225/2500 lists of VS, a 618 points unit of 18 Crypts horror has to be added to the (about) 600 points of mandatory basic troops. You have to add on top of that 600 to 800 points on characters on average. Also, you will want a Mortis Engine (200ish) to synergize with your horrors... And thats it, points are gone. Where are the standards for Blood and Glory scenario? Where are the redirectors/chaff units? Where are your characters in? Do that unit hold to flank charges or can make swift reforms?


The points in VC are consumed so fast and easily, that I really doubt such a big and unwieldy horde with no standards, and so easily redirected/speedbumped would really work in a game that is more than just slam big hordes into each other to throw buckets of dice.

To sum it up, what works perfectly in one army, maybe is not so good in another.

Kyte
17-01-2012, 18:23
Crypt Horrors in Horde backed up by Mortis Engine for ward 4 + LvL Vampire with Forbidden Lore (beasts) casting wildform on these guys could be devastating.

I suspect that that perticular combo will cause a lot of whining on here very soon.

Lilike
17-01-2012, 18:26
16 horrors or 43 Grave Guard with great weapons, full command and banner of the barrows.

I'll take the Grave Guard sadly, as threatening as that massive strength 4 poisoned is.

There are benefits to the GG unit but without considering magic support the horrors are going to outfight and out-tank that GG horde.

Lord Dan
17-01-2012, 19:10
More importantly, isn't that something like a $420 unit?

I feel all of a sudden that GW wants us to be having this discussion.

Malorian
17-01-2012, 20:14
More importantly, isn't that something like a $420 unit?

I feel all of a sudden that GW wants us to be having this discussion.

Yeah, that's what holding me back.

At least the trolls could be gathered up from starter sets.

Because of this it seems if I want to be competitive AND stay i a budget I'm better off going the ethereal route. (It helps that I already have 10 wraiths and 4 spirit hosts.)

Lord Inquisitor
17-01-2012, 20:30
6 is a perfectly viable unit and much more achievable. Further can be added as desired. You don't need to buy the whole unit at once. I plan on getting 6 and working up from there. Undead ogres are also a possibility for the conversion-minded.

rocdocta
17-01-2012, 23:16
Yeah, that's what holding me back.

At least the trolls could be gathered up from starter sets.

Because of this it seems if I want to be competitive AND stay i a budget I'm better off going the ethereal route. (It helps that I already have 10 wraiths and 4 spirit hosts.)

i am using my converted ogre bulls. i have a lot from ebay so not a drama.

bildo
20-01-2012, 16:49
the generic trolls dont seem to distant from the crypt models. if you can find crypt spare parts from players using vargeists, add them (with a bit of work obviously) to the generic trolls and you got yourself a cheap alternative. and they will be unique....till someone else does them

Demgear
21-01-2012, 12:13
I would deal with these by sending my Doombull with ramhorn helm, dawnstone, gnarled hide, HA and Shield at them. Hitting on 3s, with 6 attacks in the first round of combat, and a 2+ rerollable armour save where each save gives +1 attack. For every phase of combat he wins he gets +1 A, and they are only hitting on 5+ and wounding on 5+. Also gets rid of stomps. For around 350 pts he could tie up that unit for the whole game.

Crovax20
21-01-2012, 12:56
Well I faced a unit of 6 crypt horrors yesterday. I had my horde of squig herders flank them, and the things just would not die! Even with 24 strength 5 attacks coming at them, the toughness 5 is incredible protection + as a bonus you get a 5+ regen save. I won the combats but only with one or two's. Of course I am a bit hampering myself by playing only with goblins, but squigs are probably the hardest hitting things I have in my army.