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BEARO
17-01-2012, 04:46
2496
Deploy +7

LORDS:
Vampire Lord (Renald Harkon) = 433
Lore of Vampires
Red Fury, Quickblood
Knight, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, 4+ Ward, PoFool

My go-to Red Fury Lord. I think I will name him Renald Harkon. 1+ save, 4+ Ward, 2+ vs. Fire, Red Fury with ASF, S7 and Potion of the Foolhardiness. He will ride in the unit of Black Knights.

Lv.3 Master Necro (Book of Arkhan) = 190
Lore of Vampires

This is my 2nd Lord choice and a perfect fit for my army. Lv.3 is good enough to pull some good spells and Book of Arkhan gives me another Van Hels for the price.

HEROES:
Vampire = 210
Lore of Shadow
Aura of Dark Majesty, Fear Incarnate
Knight, Enchanted Shield, Scroll

This Vampire goes with the Vampire Lord in the unit of Black Knights. Aura is the -1 Ld for all units within 6", Fear Incarnate is re-roll passed Fear or no BSB re-rolls, 1+ save and a scroll for particular dangerous magic. The Black Knight unit with the Screaming Banner becomes a fear-bomb for WS1. This allows my Lord to slaughter entire units by himself and generate combat res while taking minimal damage in return.

Cairn Wraith = 60

Cairn Wraith = 60

Makes a unit cause Terror or works as a solo drop to kill flankers and/or redirect and tie up.

CORE:
60x Skeletons (FC) = 330

60 Skeletons with Spears is just a huge block of undead, unbreakable units that can fight back and kill things with augment spells.

30x Ghouls = 300

I don't like having Ghouls realy.. but the 2 poisoned attacks each offer a great counter to high toughness units. No matter what, they're just solid units.

SPECIAL:
Spirit Host = 45
Spirit Host = 45

Misdirector, extra drops, Ethreal Great Eagles while within 12" of the General. Can also tie up things like 5-man Cav units forever.

40x Grave Guard (FC, GW, Banner of Barrows) = 560

Not sure if 40 is the right number, maybe 6x5 30 is the better number but I'll try the bigger number for now. Using Great Weapons in my first game to see how many of them can get into combat and maul things into the ground. Looking for big damage with this unit.

8x Black Knights (FC, Screaming Banner) = 263

Delivers the Vampire Lord into combat and combos with the Vampire fearmachine. Not too bad in combat either and are a lot cheaper than Blood Knights. A little sad I can't take the Blood Knights competitively, but this is small enough to durable enough (can be brought back to life easy!) to cause Disruption.

++++++++

What do you folks think? The biggest red flags is the 40x Grave Guard --> 30 maybe?

NitrosOkay
17-01-2012, 05:00
A sixty strong unit is incredibly vulnerable to a lot of spells that do greater damage based on the unit size. To a lesser extent the Grave Guard are vulnerable to this as well. This is made a bit worse by your lower dispel ability.

What about two units of 30 and the master of the dead upgrade to raise more before you impact the enemy?

Your army is lacking in raising ability so I suspect your skeletons and ghouls aren't going to last long, your army is going to depend on the Vampires and Black Knights plus the Grave Guard breaking the enemy, and quickly.

It could work, but you're going to be in a lot of trouble if your enemy gets any good spells off on your Grave Guard or Skeletons. If the Skeletons and Ghouls fold too quickly your Grave Guard will be hit from the flanks and likely be in a lot of trouble. I think what might help you more than the expensive ghouls is a big tarpit that isn't going anywhere while your Knights do their work. I would point out that for the price of 30 ghouls you could get two units of 50 Zombies which are easy to raise (of course getting 100+ Zombie models is another problem entirely...)

BEARO
17-01-2012, 05:21
Maybe drop the Skeletons to 2 units of 30 and the GG to 30 as well?

The reason why I have bigger units to begin with is because of my lack of a Lv.4 with Master of the Dead. I only have a Lv.3 primary caster w/ Book as the rest of the army is focused on combat. That's the price you pay for having a combat heavy lord.

NitrosOkay
17-01-2012, 05:29
What about this...

If you drop your Master Necromancer and improve your lord's magic level to 4, you will free up exactly enough points to take a Necromancer with master of the dead.

Two Cairn Wraith characters seems like overkill to me, I don't feel investing too heavily in ethereals is a good idea with how vulnerable they can be. One is nice to seek out the vulnerable parts of your opponent's army.

Not sure about Lore of Shadow on the Vampire. Do you really want mystifying miasma? You probably won't have dice for the bigger spells. If he took invocation it'd be harder to block raising on your black knights and you get an extra chance to heal your lord if he's wounded.

BEARO
17-01-2012, 05:37
What about this...

If you drop your Master Necromancer and improve your lord's magic level to 4, you will free up exactly enough points to take a Necromancer with master of the dead.

Two Cairn Wraith characters seems like overkill to me, I don't feel investing too heavily in ethereals is a good idea with how vulnerable they can be. One is nice to seek out the vulnerable parts of your opponent's army.

Not sure about Lore of Shadow on the Vampire. Do you really want mystifying miasma? You probably won't have dice for the bigger spells. If he took invocation it'd be harder to block raising on your black knights and you get an extra chance to heal your lord if he's wounded.

The thing is, I'm having a hard time accepting that a Combat Lord should be given magic levels. It's unfluffy for a Blood Dragon to be magically adept (weak excuse, I know), miscasts kill a bunch of Knights and that's always bad, I have to rely on him for magic and I don't like that because he's also the general of the army.

Two Cairn Wraiths might be too much, but I don't think I'm investing too much in Ethereals. They're great for blocking or intercepting units and redirecting. They're basically untouchable Eagles that forces opponents to throw magic missiles at them, thus reducing the amount of damage they're applying to the other units in my army. Have you tried these guys? I've been playing with Great Eagles for years and I can definitely see how annoying these guys can be. Imagine tying up a unit of 5x-6x Dragon Princes, or holy cow, an entire unit of Mourfang Cavalry. Or running towards a Sabretusk with your Cairn Wraith (freeing up a charge lane) and having him take a Terror test on Ld.4 lol. Great great units..

As for the Lore of Vampire, I agree. I think Lore of Vampires will go nicely on all casters, just for more castings of IoN.

NitrosOkay
17-01-2012, 05:44
I've used lots of ethereals and I agree they have many great uses but you already have two spirit host drops and a Cairn Wrath. Is the fourth ethereal going to provide more benefit than shoring up your battleline with those 60 points?

It's something you have to decide for yourself obviously but it's just something to think about.

If you want to go fluffy Blood Dragons, I would mention that they disdain not just casting magic themselves but Necromancers too :). Sometimes compromises must be made to make a list work competitively.

If you're worried about miscasts you can use your lord as a dispel bot and just cast invocation with him, using the rest of your dice to invocation/bound spells with your necromancers and vampire.

BEARO
17-01-2012, 06:11
2500
7 drops

LORDS:
Vampire Lord = 433
Lore of Vampires
Red Fury, Quickblood
Knight, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, 4+ Ward, PoFool

Lv.3 Master Necro (Book of Arkhan) = 190
Lore of Vampires

HEROES:
Vampire = 210
Lore of Vampires
Aura of Dark Majesty, Fear Incarnate
Knight, Enchanted Shield, Scroll

Cairn Wraith = 60
Cairn Wraith = 60

CORE:
60x Skeletons (FC) = 330
30x Ghouls = 300

SPECIAL:
Spirit Host = 45
Spirit Host = 45
36x Grave Guard (FC, GW, Banner of Barrows) = 512
10x Black Knights (FC, Screaming Banner) = 315

Here's what I'm rolling with right now. Still 7 drops, going to run the Grave Guard with 7 wide, 7x5 (+1 stray), 10x Black Knights w/ 2 characters gives me 6x2 formation.

Going to try the big block of Spears simply because they're a giant unit of Unbreakable and they might as well pin things in place for my other units.

I'll try the 2x Cairn Wraiths for now, simply because I don't know what I'm going to do with the other 60 points. I could buff up my GG squad some more, or I could get another Spirit Host, but I'm not entirely sure.

The one change I'm really happy about is the LoV on the Lv.1 Vampire. That's a good change.

I could also drop the GG to a 30 man unit, drop the Cairn Wraiths all together and add in 1x Terrogheist.

NitrosOkay
17-01-2012, 06:22
Sounds good, good luck. If you can avoid pitfalls mentioned above you should do well.

Re: Terrorgheist. I'm looking at your list right now and it basically gives cannons and to a lesser extent stonethrowers nothing vulnerable to shoot at. You take a terrorgheist and all shooting in the army will be focused squarely on that monster.

Caelas
17-01-2012, 07:46
I would separate the skellies into two blocks of thirty for the sake of maneuverability and multitasking, but try them out and see if you like them. Same goes for the GG, 30 would give you a little more space for another fighty unit or even a bit of support.

BEARO
18-01-2012, 04:07
I would separate the skellies into two blocks of thirty for the sake of maneuverability and multitasking, but try them out and see if you like them. Same goes for the GG, 30 would give you a little more space for another fighty unit or even a bit of support.

The GG, since they're a primary hard-hitting unit, needs to stay in 7x5 formation.

The Core neesd to be looked at again I think.
Let's say you have 60 Skeletons, what do you do with them?

Do you do a giant block of 60 for more bodies, more wounds of chew through, more tarpit, and more attacks? They offer only 1 drop at deployment and can be focused on with magic.

Or do you go for 2x30 blocks. 2 drops at deployment, more manuverble, but targets to focus, but less attacks, less tarpit and can be wiped out easier.

NitrosOkay
18-01-2012, 05:27
I think considering the ability of Vampires to raise ~15-20 models per unit in a good turn of casting 2x30 will usually be the better option. It's less vulnerable to most magic, more maneuverable, another drop, more versatile and easier to raise.

BEARO
18-01-2012, 06:00
I think considering the ability of Vampires to raise ~15-20 models per unit in a good turn of casting 2x30 will usually be the better option. It's less vulnerable to most magic, more maneuverable, another drop, more versatile and easier to raise.

Hmm.. it appears that I might need a LV.2 in there somewhere...

What if I take the Vampire (Lv.1) out of the picture here for a sec. Maybe run the Knights at 11x w/ the Vampire Lord just as a bus? Or maybe even 9x + Lord? Then I'll take the Vampire's Fear combo and put it with the Grave Guard? I need that Screaming Banner somewhere hmm..

I could drop the Master Necro Lv.3 for a Lv.2 w/ Book and Lv.2 Master Necro or something else. Drop the Lv.1 Vampire entirely and buff the VL to Lv.4 and take Fear Incarnate.

Thoughts?

Ape
18-01-2012, 16:20
hmm the unit which will win you the games mostly is the unit of black knights and your 2 Vampires. although u can replace killed black knights quite fast, the unit size might be too small.
If the enemy focuses this unit the first 2 rounds and kills all black knights, then your vampires alone will have some troubles beating larger units. if possible i would get some more black knights as meat shield to be save the unit lasts long enough. without that unit you loose the main smash power of your army.
But thats just my oppinion... on the weekend i used a combat Vampire supported by 15 blackknights vs skaven and i completely needed the additional ones.

BEARO
18-01-2012, 19:14
I think if the main focus is targeted at the Knights, I need to look at splitting some focus onto the large GG unit and maybe even the Skeletons.

I mean, if you take a giant skeleton unit of say... 60 of them, then give them Spears in a Horde formation, take the Screaming Banner and a Vampire who has Aura and Fear, that can really be a thorn in someone's back to. Not just that, it effects the unit they're fighting with, making the GG unit who comes flanking on the side all the deadlier (Barrows vs. WS1 hits on 2s while they hit back on 5s).


2381
7 drops

LORDS:
Viktor Draconis (Lv.4 Vampire Lord) = 538
Lore of Vampires
Red Fury, Quickblood
Knight, Ogre Blade, Dragonhelm, 4+ Ward, PoFool

HEROES:
Edward Cullen (Vampire) = 207
Lore of Vampires
Aura of Dark Majesty, Fear Incarnate
Shield, Glittering Scales, Scroll

Lv.1 Necro (Book of Arkhan) = 90
Lore of Vampires

CORE:
60x Skeletons (FC, Screaming Banner) = 355
27x Ghouls = 270

SPECIAL:
Spirit Host = 45
Spirit Host = 45
35x Grave Guard (FC, GW, Banner of Barrows) = 500
11x Black Knights (FC, Banner of Swiftness) = 331

Changes:
Lv.1 Vampire goes with the Skeletons.
Fear-bomb combo with Screaming Banner, WS1 hits WS6 on 5s, but with Glittering Scales the Vampire only gets hit on 6s. Otherwise, he'll get hit on 5s regardles.
I see a giant unit of Spears that's unbreakable, has a lot of bodies, has the fear bomb and is very difficult to remove unless you have outrageous magic as a huge threat.

Lv.4 Vampire Lord over the Master Necro to save points. Book gets handed down to a Lv.1. Lord goes with the 11x Black Knights and is now its won threat.
Another huge threat.

35x Grave Guard in 7x5 formation, +1 to hit, S6 KB. Still a big threat, to hell with anyone who says they're not.

I have ~120 points left over to add more stuff, what other suggestions do you guys have?

zielonkak
18-01-2012, 21:02
corpse cart?? or vargeists?

NitrosOkay
18-01-2012, 22:14
Corpse Cart with unholy lodestone will fit that, and provides an ASF bubble and greatly improves invocation of nehek.