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Dreadlordpaul
17-01-2012, 07:55
hey guys lately the guy i play against has been taking this really nasty horde and i cant kill it or really avoid it with WoC. The unit is
savage orc great sharman level 4 shuriken head with a night goblin bsb and 40 savage orcs. it seems like nothing i send into it does anything. ive chucked 23 chaos warriors with MoT at it 40 great weapon maruders at it and 8 frenzied nurgle knights at it and i cant touch it

Asuryan's Spear
17-01-2012, 08:00
try a purple sun and then charge with any of the above. do the big template on their I2 and you'll be laughing

Dreadlordpaul
17-01-2012, 08:02
i will have to try that :)

Sarael
17-01-2012, 08:15
40 SOBU w/ EHW (Savage Orc Big Uns w/ Extra Hand Weapon).

Standard O&G horde. So effective because it's so cheap, and stacks up a lot of attacks at S4. You've still got chaos armor and shield or halberd, and 2 attacks, as well as higher WS. You should be beating this unit regularly. Wiping it out is one thing, beating it is another. Also, challenge the BSB/Shaman.

As with any horde, any spell that attacks the whole unit, or every model in the unit, will cause more damage the more models in the unit.

Dreadlordpaul
17-01-2012, 08:33
he somehow gives them +1 strength from the sharman so in the first round hes str6. i generally issue challenges but he refuses them with the unit champion. im going to try the lore of death on the level 4 and see if that helps

N1AK
17-01-2012, 08:35
Are they savage orc big'uns? That's a very popular and extremely effective combat block at the moment so I'm not surprised you're having issues with it.

One option is to weaken them before you engage. Methods to do this vary between armies. As often this isn't as easy as it sounds I'll try and cover off alternative options.

One of their biggest strengths is the choppa rule providing them with lots of S5 attacks in the first round of combat. This can be countered by:
1/ Flank or rear charging (only models on flank can attack limiting numbers)
2/ If you have a high toughness model (Necrosphynx, Steam Tank) or great armour 1+ that's either stubborn or can do enough damage to cancel out static combat res charge with that first
3/ Hit them with a combat debuff for the first round to limit their damage potential
4/ Hit them hard enough that their damage potential is limited. An example of this would be charging them with a unit of DE corsairs + Mindrazored + +1 attack from cauldron: 50 attacks with re-rolls wounding on 2s
5/ Let them charge a unit with lots of ranks (50 skaven slaves 10 deep) then counter charge in your turn. They'd have to kill 36 slaves (and lose less than 5 in return) to break steadfast in round 1

As this is a Vampire Counts forum here are a couple of options I can see us using:
1/ Ethereal units (very little chance anything bar BSB can do anything) great for first round to get rid of choppa bonus.
2/ Hit them with Curse of Years or our new vortex spell to thin them out
3/ If you have a Lord on Monster they'd do nicely
4/ Divert or slow using Fell Bats / Dire Wolves / Spirit Hosts / Bat Swarms until we can get a combined charge

I actually think this is a very tough unit for VC to take on. The Undead rule means that throwing lone characters in is risky as we're likely to lose to their 5 static CR + ward, we don't have anything with extremely high toughness, crumble makes the standard steadfast chaff option difficult and we don't have anything that can hit hard enough to one turn neuter them.

Given the points in the block I think I'd attempt to keep it out of an important combat using our fantastic chaff choices (raised units, bats, wolves, fell bats & hosts) while I focus my force on removing his other units. I'd then have to try for a combined charge (with spell support) to take them out.

Typo
17-01-2012, 08:37
Orc choppas are +1 S in the first round of combat (not sure if they have to charge for it or not?)

The Shaman is there to boost their tattoo ward save. I forget offhand, I think there is also an augment in the Big Waagh lore that adds strength (and will add +1 additionally if there's a bunch of orcs in bombat nearby as per the lore attribute?)

N1AK
17-01-2012, 08:38
he somehow gives them +1 strength from the sharman so in the first round hes str6. i generally issue challenges but he refuses them with the unit champion. im going to try the lore of death on the level 4 and see if that helps

It might be that I misunderstand your post but it sounds like when you issue a challenge he is refusing the challenge 'with the champion'. If so that's not how the rules work. When someone refuses a challenge, it is the person who issues the challenge who decides who is moved out of combat, thus:
You: My champion challenges
Opp: No one accepts the challenge
You: Then your Shaman must be moved out of combat

Hope that helps.

Asuryan's Spear
17-01-2012, 08:51
Treason of Tzeencth would be quite funny. use halberds or two hand weapons on your WoC and you should do quite well. a cheaphero with sword of quarrel would give you a decent turnover

Arctaeus
17-01-2012, 08:51
It might be that I misunderstand your post but it sounds like when you issue a challenge he is refusing the challenge 'with the champion'. If so that's not how the rules work. When someone refuses a challenge, it is the person who issues the challenge who decides who is moved out of combat, thus:
You: My champion challenges
Opp: No one accepts the challenge
You: Then your Shaman must be moved out of combat

Hope that helps.

Yes, thats correct. If he refuses with the champion, then you choose which of the characters is moved to the back rank of the unit and does not take part in the combat.

I assume this means the unit can't use his leadership for the combat too? Would this include any unit-buffing abilities?

Dreadlordpaul
17-01-2012, 08:52
It might be that I misunderstand your post but it sounds like when you issue a challenge he is refusing the challenge 'with the champion'. If so that's not how the rules work. When someone refuses a challenge, it is the person who issues the challenge who decides who is moved out of combat, thus:
You: My champion challenges
Opp: No one accepts the challenge
You: Then your Shaman must be moved out of combat

Hope that helps.

i wasnt aware of that and yes they are big uns

Gaargod
17-01-2012, 11:03
Technically, amusingly, he's wrong on two accounts. Firstly, if no one accepts as the others have said, you choose who 'refuses' and is sent to the back. Secondly, champions can never 'refuse' and be sent to the back. They can accept the challenge or not, as is normal, but there's no downside to it. No, you can't have the champion refuse but ignore being sent back, just to avoid it on a character.

Doesn't really help you much of course. Any buff spells will still apply, as will general's/bsb's bubble.

Tyranno1
17-01-2012, 12:35
One method is to shoot at it. A tzeentch mage should be able to pump out enough damage with infernal gateway and flikering fire to hurt its combat ability. And if you roll 11/12 with gateway your laughing.

One method with my beastmen I have found to work is to position a character near where the lv4 shaman will be in combat and useing your higher I stat you kill it off to wear down his ward save. (The other tricketers shard is needed to do this properly)

Dreadlordpaul
17-01-2012, 13:15
thanks for the help guys. i am trying out a level 4 with the lore of death. i also have a level 2 tzeench wizard who will hopefully roll gateway meaning that should i have both gateway and purple sun i can potentially destroy his entire army.

PeG
17-01-2012, 13:52
Since you play WoC you have some other options as well

chosen with 3+ ward save + halberds

If you take lore of death the -3 LD spell is very useful against anything not unbreakable

infernal puppet possibly in combination with black tongue will probably toast his lvl4 and potentially a some other models as well

Dreadlordpaul
17-01-2012, 14:06
Since you play WoC you have some other options as well

chosen with 3+ ward save + halberds

If you take lore of death the -3 LD spell is very useful against anything not unbreakable

infernal puppet possibly in combination with black tongue will probably toast his lvl4 and potentially a some other models as well

i have no chosen so that idea is out the window. i have took the black tongue in my list now as it looks really nasty but i have no puppet.

Harwammer
17-01-2012, 14:27
Flank charge him with knights. If you win he loses frenzy and then has to chose between having the knights lock him down in combat or reforming to present a new flank to your warriors. If he wins he doesn't lose frenzy but is still presented this dilemma. If you lose and flee he is forced to pursue and is drawn out of position.

The best result is to win the first round then flee the second, stripping frenzy, hopefully drawing out his unit and wasting one of his movement phases. If you're lucky the knights might rally, thus not giving away vp.

If you managed to strip frenzy and escape combat it's time to force Pandaemonium through and make him take a panic test from the hell cannon at Ld7-n (season to taste with doom totem or lore of death... you did also assassinate the scrawny goblin bsb, right?).

If this turns out not to work (i just came up with it off the top of my head so it probably won't) then simply cast purple sun while screaming 'hadouken' or 'kamehameha' (again depending on taste).

Oh and the shaman's +1 strength when more units fight than fled thing only applies to spells.

Dreadlordpaul
17-01-2012, 14:35
oh that makes sense i thought the +1 strength thing was odd. il try using the knights to get him in the flank

Malorian
17-01-2012, 14:58
Take a stubborn lord with a 1+ rerollable, charge in, forget.

Kill the rest of the army and come back later.

Dreadlordpaul
17-01-2012, 15:10
hmmmm i think i will try that :D

tmarichards
17-01-2012, 15:28
Stop throwing things into the front of it...

Redirect it with a unit of dogs or something else, then hit it in the flank with a good combat unit- you'll win combat, remove his frenzy and remove his Choppas and he'll likely break from combat (unless he's not an idiot and has a Stubborn Crown Black Orc in there). You shoulkd now win the grind fight.

Tokunator
17-01-2012, 16:18
Easy recipe to kill such a deathstar:

a) Get a Hero or Lord with Sword of Swift Slaying, The Other Trickster's Shard and Favour of the Gods and Stream of Corruption or Word of Agony. The Hero should be a BSB. Best make him Khorne.

b) Get a Warshrine. Use it to bless the unit you buy in c). He won't be able to charge you consistently before turn 3, so you get two chances to bless the unit to get either +1Strength, +1 Armour or +1 Attack. Of course, if you are lucky to get the 4+ Ward Save, keep that. Ideally, get two Shrines.

c) Get a decent-sized (I'd go with 23 plus Hero, so 6*4) unit of Chaos Warriors of Tzeentch with handweapons and shields. This unit MUST have a champion. Bless them as in b).

d) Charge them. Make sure that both the champion and hero get into base contact with the Shaman. As they are the same base size, it should be possible, even if the musician is in-between your 2 guys. You have to make sure to align well in the round before you charge.

e) If you have Word of Agony, use it on the Shaman to wound him.

f) As the Shrine gives the Champion the Eye of the Gods rule, both he and the Hero are now forced to issue a challenge. As only one challenge can be issued per round, you get to choose (there is no clear hierarchy in the rule who must challenge first) the challenger. Take the champion. If he gets the unit champion, he'll probably kill him, so well done. The BSB shouldn't be a problem either, if it is just a Goblin and you rolled a decent result on the blessing chart. If he is clever, he takes the Shaman, but even then odds are good that you can hurt him, especially if he has to reroll his wards.

g) If the Shaman is not in the challenge, jump him with your Hero/Lord. The rerolls from the sword should enable you to wound him a few times or maybe even kill him. Regardless, he should be wounded enough that the Warriors around him can finish him (again, getting those buffs from the Shrine is key).

g) As soon as he is dead, the unit drops to a 6+ Ward. Your remaining Warriors are going to kill about 2.5 with S4, 3,333 with S5 or with S4 and +1 Att. You should also use the Stream of Corruption at the Hero's Initiative step to puke into the unit and kill 2-3 more.

h) They will strike back. As you are 6 wide, he'll get 24 attacks from the front and 16 support ranks (8 wide). Those 40 attacks will result in about 9 kills or 7.222 with +1 Armour, even less if you dispelled the +1 Strength spell (according to my mathhammer app).

i) In combat resolution, he will have 5-9 kills, a Banner and 3 ranks (assuming that you didn't kill 6 in combat or through magic), maybe a BSB, giving him a total of 9-14. You have 3 from the Shaman, 1 from the charge, 4-6 deads, the challenge's 1-2 wounds, 2 ranks, a BSB and a Banner for 12-15. At this stage, you have either narrowly lost (but have a decent Ld and a BSB) or won, in which case the Orcs lose their Frenzy and the Strength bonus from the spell, as well as the choppa bonus. This will drastically reduce their effectiveness in the next rounds.



Failing that, just Gateway them into the Realm of Chaos or hope for a miscast you can Infernal Puppet into a Cascade or something equally silly.

But in essence, kill the characters quickly and then the rest is just a bunch of Orcs.

Glenn87
17-01-2012, 17:32
you play WoC??
take this lord:

Chaos Lord
- Mark of Tzeentch
- Disc of Tzeentch
- Talisman of Preservation
- Crown of Command
- Dragonhelm
- shield

340pts


Rear charge, you're charging and are in the rear: 3 combat res, he's got 3 ranks and a banner, that's 4. Your guy has 5 attacks...kill some guys, and you'll win combat. He won't break (stubborn), has a 1+ Save (3+ against them) and a 3+ Ward Save. Good Game.


Just 1 little question, as I play O&G. HOW does he give them +1 S from the Shaman? Even with a spell?? All they have is damage spells, or the Hand of Gork, or the re-roll to hit.

Giving a unit +1S is on neither of the 6 spells, so either he's cheating, or he didn't read his magic lore properly.

brother_maynard
17-01-2012, 17:54
Use Tom's idea. Its insanely easy, very effective, and doesn't require toolish list tailoring.

Glenn87
17-01-2012, 18:11
Use Tom's idea. Its insanely easy, very effective, and doesn't require toolish list tailoring.

neither does mine. I've learned the lord-layout from the ETC lists (I don't play WoC, so didn't know it).

It's hard as nails, against this blok, or against any other deathstar they throw at you.
If they have the flamming banner in there, even better = 2+ Ward Save

brother_maynard
17-01-2012, 19:17
Huh? Taking that lord to beat that unit is list tailoring is it not?

Malorian
17-01-2012, 19:19
That lord is against any army.

brother_maynard
17-01-2012, 19:20
Well no kidding but he's asking advice to beat this unit in a one off game.

Dreadlordpaul
17-01-2012, 19:22
ive decided to go mono khorne on him in the end as mu units and characters are better than his :)

popisdead
17-01-2012, 19:49
First try Miasma from a lvl 1 and Purple Sun from a Lord.

Glenn87
17-01-2012, 20:47
ive decided to go mono khorne on him in the end as mu units and characters are better than his :)

hmm... maybe...but depending on wich equipment, he'll have higher S then you, or a better save (if you take chaos armour/halberd or 2 hand weapons) then you. Only thing you've got going is better WS, Ld and I...
Ow, and your troops are more expensive...


problem with this approach is, that you'll need to throw ALOT of units against his 1....leaving all of his other stuff running around...

Ratbeast
17-01-2012, 21:04
use 2 hell cannons to lob fire at it, then mop it up with warriors

Feefait
17-01-2012, 21:11
I thought any character sent to the bank ranks lost all it's bonuses. Including magic items and leadership bonuses for the round. Maybe that was old rules. We still play that way. lol It's one reason i love my Skaven. :)

Bass
17-01-2012, 21:12
Since you play WoC you have some other options as well

chosen with 3+ ward save + halberds

If you take lore of death the -3 LD spell is very useful against anything not unbreakable

infernal puppet possibly in combination with black tongue will probably toast his lvl4 and potentially a some other models as well

I have hit the same Ork unit, and demolished them with chosen, tzench/halberd with the terror banner, FotG and frenzy BSB, and if you throw in a warshrine or 2 to make sure you get the 3+, they can pretty much roll over anything in the O&G book

russellmoo
17-01-2012, 21:37
I'm going to give you a very easy tactic to use against this-

Set up deep for max ranks with a unit of 50 marauders- Charge in with a killy character- Chop up the shaman- once the shaman is dead- reform after combat to be wide- if you are successful- he will only be at Str 4 with a 6++ ward, you will then be able to chop through the horde-

Similarly- send in a single super killy Chaos warlord (as has been listed)- then wait for the next turn to send in the rest of the troops-

The other approach would be to use death magic to remove the shaman before he can get into combat- without a 5++ ward they should not be able to defeat your chaos warriors

Dirty Mac
17-01-2012, 23:53
I have also hit that same ork unit, as my friend has started playing O&G. I pit of shades it every chance i get, First game 17 orks died, 2nd game 28 orks died. Pit of shades will make that unit useless.

Discordian
18-01-2012, 00:36
Recently i won such a unit with only 16 chosen 2+as,+1a,4ward save stuborn ( not 40 orcs but 28-30 horde) , they had their wp reduced to 2 their t 3 and curse of the leper and with a little help from rot glorious rot.my favorite lore is shadow in combination with lore of nurgle.Play with death or shadow and cast purple sun or pit of shades so the 40 horde remains about 23-28 the time you charge,manage to wound them at 3+ or 2+ and you should have no problem.

Lebowski
18-01-2012, 01:12
Yea. He cannot have str 6 on his savages.
Unless he got confused and is thinking of his black orcs after 1st turn of combat.