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RobbiP
22-04-2006, 18:55
Is it possible to have a legal clanrat-less army for skaven? Or must have always clanrats in your army, regardless of what clan?

Also, did Lustria introduce any new tourny-legal skaven armies?

Verminmistress
22-04-2006, 20:05
I don't think it is possible, since I'm pretty sure you need to have at least one unit of clanrats in an army...

Xavier
22-04-2006, 20:15
The eshin list in storm of chaos could do it, clan rats were replaced with night runners as the main stay, but sadly this list has become illegal at tournaments in the uk.

The lustrian book introduce the clan pestilence list, which isnt tournament legal either and you need to have a special character to lead it.

Also normal skaven armys NEED to take one unit of clan rats before they can take any of another unit. Example, One unit of clan rats lets you take a warp lightning cannon, a unit of night runners etc etc etc. Two units of clan rats lets you take, two warp ligtning cannons, two units of night runners, two etc, two etc.

So no it isn't possible to use a tournament legal skaven list with no clan rats

RobbiP
22-04-2006, 20:35
ouch why is the eshin list in SoC banned from tournies? o.O

Xavier
22-04-2006, 21:03
A very good question, in my opinion none of the Storm of Chaos lists should be, but sadly, the powers that be have decided that any and all none offical army books are to be disallowed, so campaign supplements are out.

In short if it isn't in an offical army book for the army or ravening hordes then you cant use it

Ganymede
22-04-2006, 23:08
It is possible to field a legal by-the-book skaven army without a single unit of clanrats, but you need to play below 2,000 points in order to pull it off.

In order to manage this, you need to field a unit of rat swarms and a unit of stormvermin to fufill your 2+ core requirement. Neither of these troop types are restricted by the mainstay rule. Of course, you can't buy anything else besides three characters, so this isn't the wisest of ideas.

WillFightForFood
22-04-2006, 23:58
Blank Edit

Ganymede
23-04-2006, 02:18
In the skaven armylist, on page 44-48, you can look to see every single skaven regiment which is effected by the Mainstay rule. Neither the stormvermin, the ratswarms, nor the DoW option have such a notation.

At best, the Bestiary entry and the Armylist are in direct contradiction with eachother.


Hmm... upon further research, it seems that the two sections do not contradict eachother afterall. They can both be applied simultaneously without a problem.

WillFightForFood
23-04-2006, 02:46
Blank Edit

Gorbad Ironclaw
23-04-2006, 03:55
The eshin list in storm of chaos could do it, clan rats were replaced with night runners as the main stay, but sadly this list has become illegal at tournaments in the uk.

The lustrian book introduce the clan pestilence list, which isnt tournament legal either and you need to have a special character to lead it.



Thats not quite true.

The SoC lists have been banned from the UK GT, but should still be usable at independent tournaments. And I have seen indy tournaments allow the Pestilence list too, often removing the requirement to take the special character.

I know both are allowed at the WPS Club Challenge next month, and I seem to remember it applying to most other indy ones too. So it's really just a question of looking a bit further than what GW does.

Xavier
23-04-2006, 08:52
Oops, I forgot to say UK offical tournaments

Flame
23-04-2006, 08:56
Whats an 'official' tournament? Only ones GW do? Even then you assume incorrectly.

ONLY the UK GWGT is affected by this ruling, no other tournament is. The doubles, conflicts etc still allow SoC.

Gorbad Ironclaw
23-04-2006, 09:15
'Official' tournaments doesn't make any sense anyway. A tournament is a tournament, no matter who is hosting it. It being GW doesn't make it any different, or better(and if we are talking the UK GT I'd say it's worse actually) in any way.

Maybe if there was a 'world tour' of tournaments, with a professional circuit, it would make a little sense, but for something you go to for fun...

Griefbringer
23-04-2006, 12:03
Back to the original issue: is having to field 1-2 units of clanrats in a Skaven force that big a problem? They are, after all, the essence of what Skaven really are - hordes of expendable ratmen (as per WFRP 1st edition, at least 75% of Skaven belong to warlord clans, with the specialist clans - Skryre, Moulder, Eshin, Pestilens - all together making the remaining population).

Now, they might not be the most exciting unit there is, but keeping them moderate sized they don't really gulp up that many points - so there is a plenty of room for all sorts of funkiness.

Or is the problem about the models? If you are not really happy with the style of the basic clanrats, the gutter runner boxed set could give an alternative source (they come with spears, shields and swords, so one should be able to make clanrats out of them). And it is not compulsory to paint them brown either.

RobbiP
23-04-2006, 12:52
Griefbringer- it's a little bit of both models and boringness. As you said, they're the bread and butter of Skaven, and that's not what I want at all. Also, model wise, they look like junk and I don't think they've had a clanrat update for the longest time...?

Originally, I wanted to go moulder, with an army consisting of Giant Rats and Rat Ogres- in lustria, they even got a sick new boxed set for Clan Moulder. However, upon looking at the skaven codex, I realized that clanrats must be in EVERY clan- even Moulder =( and since I don't see how this makes any sense, I kinda gave up on skaven.

Also- yeah I want my army to go to tournies or so. Maybe not GTs, but official GW tournaments nontheless, and I don't know much rules-wise about them, so yeah... guess I'd be stuck with those clanrats lol

Flame
23-04-2006, 12:59
I know alot of people who use the plague monk boxed set for clanrats- far easier to paint, look nice, no tail to snap off, better hands etc.

Just replace the second weapon with a shield and you are good to go!

Xavier
23-04-2006, 14:36
My poor choice of words aside my point still stands. And the GT normally sets the precident for what other tournaments will adhere to given time. By this I mean some tournaments will follow the GT's example and the Conflicts will probably switch to not allowing them either. Since they are both organised by the same people anyway, I assume they are only still allowed because the conflict rules were just a copy and paste of last years GT doubles tournaments when SOC lists were still allowed.

Believe it or not I do know what im talking about.:p


I know alot of people who use the plague monk boxed set for clanrats- far easier to paint, look nice, no tail to snap off, better hands etc.

Just replace the second weapon with a shield and you are good to go!


That what I did for my clan pestilence list (Not the lustrian one though) 3 units of Clan rats using plague monk models with shields and some spears and then units of proper plague monks with the proper weapon choices and painted slightly different aswell.

Griefbringer
23-04-2006, 14:42
However, upon looking at the skaven codex, I realized that clanrats must be in EVERY clan- even Moulder =( and since I don't see how this makes any sense, I kinda gave up on skaven.


First off, it is not codex, but army book. This ain't no 40K round here.

As for the main Skaven list, it is really intended to be warlord-clan style force, with support from the specialist clans. It is not really intended to do pure Moulder/Eshin/Pestilens/Skryre forces (though it is can be stretched quite far when it comes to Skryre "themed" force).

For the specialist clan themed lists, you should look at the brief appendix lists at the back of the book, they have other units than clanrats as the mainstay units. Those are not usually allowed in tournaments.

Then there are the later three lists for Eshin (Storm of Chaos), Pestilens (Lustria) and Moulder (White Dwarf, cannot remember the number but it was not a long time ago). Whether these are allowed in a particular tournaments, depends on the particular tournament organisers (every tournament organiser is free to make choose whatever restrictions he likes, including allowing only high elf armies and requiring all players to wear pink skirts).

Now, if you want to go for playing an Eshin or Pestilens force using one of their lists, I would say just go for it. You can always have a spare clanrat unit or two for use in those tournaments where you are forced to fall back to the main list.

As for models, the multipart clanrats date back to 1998 or so - at the time they were probably considered a significant improvement over the earlier one-piece models (of which there were actually three different versions, if one counts the Advanced Heroquest lot in also), but they might not compare favourable towards the later runners or plague monks. But as said, there is nothing to prevent one from converting those newer Skaven plastics into clanrats.

Atrahasis
23-04-2006, 15:47
ONLY the UK GWGT is affected by this ruling, no other tournament is. The doubles, conflicts etc still allow SoC.

The Doubles doesn't. I know, I pretty much wrote teh rulespack.

Ganymede
23-04-2006, 15:56
"The number of Clanrat units in the army restricts the maximum number of multiples of any other unit that can be included in the army." - Skaven Rulebook, PG 11, Emphasis added. The bestiary entry may leave it off (oversight maybe?), but the rule is in effect regardless of whether or not there's a little note next to the entry in the bestiary. It is a global rule for the clanrats themselves and no exceptions are noted (whereas the Skaven armylist rules specifically state they do not apply to non-skaven DoW).


First off, concepts such as "global rule" and tales of author oversight are simply products of your imagination. Even if they did exist, you have absolutely no proof beyond wild conjecture.

Secondly, the parenthised notation in your quote has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. It's relevence is limited solely to the "Skaven Special Rules" page, and that page does not come up in either of the rules discussed.

There are really only two options. The first is that the armylist and the bestiary contradict each other, and the armylist takes precedence simply because the armylist contains the rules and instructions for building a legal army. The second is that the Bestiary and the Armylist's differences, instead of being contradictory, are meant to be applied at the same time, resulting in stormvermin and ratswarms which are 0-1, but still require a unit of clanrats.

I lean towards the latter. Clanrats are so good, why would anyone NOT want to take them?


Additionally, who here noticed that the nightrunner figures are simply the figures from the clanrat boc resculpted? If you take a good look at the pieces, you can actually match up many of the nightrunner components for the matching clanrat components. It is especially noticable on the heads, the tails, the torsos, and the legs.

RobbiP
23-04-2006, 16:16
Hmm... I oughta get the SoC books then, and see how the Eshin list is. I personally am no fan of Pestillen, but Eshin ain't too bad (ninja rats, anyone?)

And yes, I'm a 40k person, so I call army books 'codex.' Just a chronic habit, sry.

Oh, and btw for those wondering: I'm trying to make a 'unique' or 'heavily themed' WHFB army; yea, I realize I could make your average SAD army, but that has a somewhat poor theme + it's cheap. The Moulder line (and followed closely after is the Eshin) is pretty thematic and doesn't look too too cheesylicious.

About converting- oh if only Clanrats could have no shields it would be oh so easy. And, I dunno why, but I just.. don't.. like.. clanrats. They seem to me like very generic, something you'd see in a general non-themed army. The specialist troops are the ones you'd expect to see in a clan-following army. Just what I think.

Anyways, thanks for the suggestions guys. =)

Griefbringer
23-04-2006, 16:33
Hmm... I oughta get the SoC books then, and see how the Eshin list is. I personally am no fan of Pestillen, but Eshin ain't too bad (ninja rats, anyone?)


You can also get the Eshin list as a legal free PDF download from the GW SoC website (I cannot remember the URL right now, who does?).

RobbiP
23-04-2006, 16:42
You can also get the Eshin list as a legal free PDF download from the GW SoC website (I cannot remember the URL right now, who does?).

You sure? I can't find it anywere... but if this is true.. then.. o.O you are my hero lol.

edit: just found it.. hehe... oo la la

Griefbringer
24-04-2006, 08:01
About converting- oh if only Clanrats could have no shields it would be oh so easy.

That is what blue-tac is there for!

As for the earlier point about whether stormvermin and rat swarms are subject to the mainstay, well, if somebody really wanted to make a skaven force consisting only of one rat swarm, one unit of stormvermin, one unit of DoW and three characters, I would let him have a go at it in a game against me. :cool: