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rwatts
18-01-2012, 06:42
Hey, thinking of doing a pre hersey lunar wolves army hopefully with lots of forge world retro amoured marines and jump packs, but was wondering what from the space marine codex is suitable for selection and which would people think to be a complete no no? Cheers

pumicerD
27-01-2012, 20:13
For a pre-heresy army I'd stick to the SM codex army list, with the following exceptions :

- the stormbolts, assault cannons and multimelta were experimental weapons recently designed so they should be restricted to 0-1 squad per army (I mean 0-1 for each);
- the plasma guns were mutch more popular back then;
- the terminator suits were reserved to the Primarchs and their bodyguards, the very elite of the Legion, they should be restricted aswell;
- the Vengence Rounds, Storm LandSpeeders and any LandRaider that is not Phobos Pattern (basic "Godhammer" pattern twin-linked lascans) were not invented / re-discovered yey and shall not be used;
- the Converting Beamers (see Master of Forge) and Relic Blades (which were'nt actual "relics" back then !) were very popular amongst vehicles/distinguished warriors.

I don't see any other restrictions as it comes to the army list. Although the Codex Astartes not having been written yet you may want to rename the Officers to something else than Captains/Chapter Masters.

I personnaly wouldn't care at all if an opponent wants to use such an army, the fluff implication is remarquable and the use of vintage power armours kind of refreshingly exotic ^^. And well, as the army list part is made of many restrictions and a very few additions that can't exactly be qualified of real "improvements", I can't see any reason why the opponent would veto this.

Ddraiglais
27-01-2012, 20:24
It's Luna Wolves, not Lunar Wolves.

I am interested in this thread since I am thinking about a Sons of Horus army since I found a pretty decent Horus mini and they might be doing a legions dex.

pumicerD
27-01-2012, 21:06
Legions dex would be awesome ! I wonder how they would balance the mighty Primarchs so they become playable though, since they're supposed to be the best warriors ever.

Ddraiglais
28-01-2012, 04:00
They won't include any primarchs in the legions dex. It's a Chaos legions dex, and the primarchs that did survive the HH haven't really done much since outside of Angron (and he's now banished).

Due to the miniature that I've seen of Horus, I am thinking of doing a towards the end of the Heresy Sons of Horus army. The rumored Chaos legions dex would probably fit that better than the loyalist dex.

thorgrim
28-01-2012, 05:18
For a pre-heresy army I'd stick to the SM codex army list, with the following exceptions :

- the stormbolts, assault cannons and multimelta were experimental weapons recently designed so they should be restricted to 0-1 squad per army (I mean 0-1 for each);
- the plasma guns were mutch more popular back then;
- the terminator suits were reserved to the Primarchs and their bodyguards, the very elite of the Legion, they should be restricted aswell;
- the Vengence Rounds, Storm LandSpeeders and any LandRaider that is not Phobos Pattern (basic "Godhammer" pattern twin-linked lascans) were not invented / re-discovered yey and shall not be used;
- the Converting Beamers (see Master of Forge) and Relic Blades (which were'nt actual "relics" back then !) were very popular amongst vehicles/distinguished warriors.

I don't see any other restrictions as it comes to the army list. Although the Codex Astartes not having been written yet you may want to rename the Officers to something else than Captains/Chapter Masters.

I personnaly wouldn't care at all if an opponent wants to use such an army, the fluff implication is remarquable and the use of vintage power armours kind of refreshingly exotic ^^. And well, as the army list part is made of many restrictions and a very few additions that can't exactly be qualified of real "improvements", I can't see any reason why the opponent would veto this.

As a additional note the plasma cannon was restricted
to vehicles during the heresy (I know FW have made them as devestator weapons but that was for a sense of completeness just as they plan on releasing a Mk8 suit set). The technology that allowed the coolant system to be man protable was developed just after the heresy during the rebuilding of the mechanicum (Its why CSM Havocs don't have the option).

HOGGLORD
28-01-2012, 05:55
If I recall from Horus Rising, the luna wolves (and most pre-heresy legions) used lots more marines, so I suggest you get a lot of marine squads. Also Assault marines were used in abundance, didn't use many, if any, scouts though.

AlphariusOmegon20
28-01-2012, 14:26
For a pre-heresy army I'd stick to the SM codex army list, with the following exceptions :

- the stormbolts, assault cannons and multimelta were experimental weapons recently designed so they should be restricted to 0-1 squad per army (I mean 0-1 for each);

Actually, read A Thousand Sons if you want to look at whether Assault Cannons were around during the heresy or not. Yes, they were experimental at the time, but they did exist and a few were being field tested by certain Legions.



- the plasma guns were mutch more popular back then;

They were no more popular than meltas and flamers were.



- the terminator suits were reserved to the Primarchs and their bodyguards, the very elite of the Legion, they should be restricted aswell;

Citation?



- the Vengence Rounds, Storm LandSpeeders and any LandRaider that is not Phobos Pattern (basic "Godhammer" pattern twin-linked lascans) were not invented / re-discovered yey and shall not be used;

Landspeeders IN GENERAL were rare during the Heresy.



- the Converting Beamers (see Master of Forge) and Relic Blades (which were'nt actual "relics" back then !) were very popular amongst vehicles/distinguished warriors.

Conversion beamers were almost restricted to Techpriests and Techadepts during that time frame. I'd argue that they are too "numerous" now, compared to what they really should be.



I don't see any other restrictions as it comes to the army list. Although the Codex Astartes not having been written yet you may want to rename the Officers to something else than Captains/Chapter Masters.

I hate to tell you but the ranks of Chapter master/ Captain did exist back then too. Neither was the top dog in the dog pile though. They were the equivalent of middle command figures then.

I personnaly wouldn't care at all if an opponent wants to use such an army, the fluff implication is remarquable and the use of vintage power armours kind of refreshingly exotic ^^. And well, as the army list part is made of many restrictions and a very few additions that can't exactly be qualified of real "improvements", I can't see any reason why the opponent would veto this.

Asbjorn Nightrunner
28-01-2012, 14:42
Additionally, in the older fluff..for the chaos raptors I believe...assault squads were the elite of the army as the STC had not been discovered at that time. So assault squads were smaller in number...so may e squads w/o jump packs.

Terminator suits would have actually been more abundant then as they had been intended to replace power armour (though failed) and they new how to make them. TDA suits are rare now as they are hard to make ub the present imperium.

You could mock up some jet bikes...marines used to have those too.

I do agree in large squads 15-20 models is what old marine squads were. I,d use the chaos dex as you can do large squads with them and they have the autocannons etc.

pumicerD
28-01-2012, 22:18
For the terminator battle suits, yes they tried to replace power armour with it and, to answer Alpharius, I can't find any citation yet but can fairly assume they first replaced the power armour of their most valuable soldiers, Primarchs and elite warriors. Note that the "Elite" of a Legion was about the size of an actual chapter, so even if restricted to these, the termies would still be a whole lot in the end. The self restriction of the army list, since they're Elite choices, would be enough then.

Yes the stormbolt & assault cannons, though experimental, were field tested by certain squads, hence the restriction which is not a total absence of those weapons.

The Captain rank, back then, would be the equivalent of a veteran sargent, correct ?
As it comes to the CM ... there must have been an equivalent but I am very doubtfull anyone in the Legion would claim to be the Chapter MASTER while his Primarch was still alive though, hence the renaming.

Jet Bikes ! That I forgot ^^ though I now recall some pre-heresy Emperor's Children jet bikes appearing in some WD. Awesome figs !

Overlord Krycis
29-01-2012, 00:27
...
The Captain rank, back then, would be the equivalent of a veteran sargent, correct ?
As it comes to the CM ... there must have been an equivalent but I am very doubtfull anyone in the Legion would claim to be the Chapter MASTER while his Primarch was still alive though, hence the renaming.
...

Actually Captains did exist; they were the commanders of Companies.
And Chapter Masters DID exist...a Chapter was roughly 1000 marines made up of 10 companies (at least in the Ultramarine Legion anyway not sure about the others).
There is a Chapter Master in Collected Visions for the UMs.

pumicerD
29-01-2012, 01:02
My mistake then, thanks for the enlightment !

Col. Tartleton
29-01-2012, 02:21
Luna Wolves have relatively small companies of 600+ men. They're led by a Captain. Focus on tons of drop pod tactical squads. Terminators are integrated into the companies (First Squad), but otherwise they appear to be specialized. There seem to be Assault Companies, Verulam Moy's company were Assault Marines. While Tybalt Marr led a Special Weapon heavy company. Falkus Kiber leads a "Squad" of Terminators but it's unclear how large squads are. I'm theorizing squads are 50 men strong and that there are 12 squads per company. There are at least 20 guys per squad and they've only mentioned up to 7th squad by name.

Clang
29-01-2012, 02:43
Some army customisation can be purely via counts-as model choice, e.g. jet bikes (as above) counting as standard bikes, thus letting you stay fluffy without crippling your army list.

Are there other Luna Wolves units you'd like to use but have no obvious current codex equivalents? And is there a particular marine codex that appeals to you most ruleswise? E.g. an assaulty army might suit the Blood Angels codex.

Leftenant Gashrog
29-01-2012, 16:23
Terminators are integrated into the companies (First Squad)

I'm theorizing squads are 50 men strong and that there are 12 squads per company. There are at least 20 guys per squad and they've only mentioned up to 7th squad by name.

Chapter 8 of Horus Rising has Loken summoning the Tenth companies 13 'senior squad leaders' (5 named 'and eight more.') - the fact that they were referred to as senior would suggest there are others. The subsequent paragraph notes that Hellebore is the companies 'First Squad' but that the number carries no meaning of seniority - the companies Terminator squad was simply referred to as "the Terminator squad".

Not that that means Terminators should be 0-1, in Chapter 6 Abaddon offers Loken a first company Terminator squad so they still loaned them out back then.

If you go by the Raptors IA article then jump packs carried a similar status to Terminator armour, they were noted as being somewhat rarer than jump packs in modern chapters - but that Horus (during the Heresy, not as master of the Wolves/Sons) still had 'tens of thousands' of such troops under his command, so I don't think they should be restricted in number, but should perhaps be restricted to Vanguard rather than regular assault marines.

A word(essay?) about the evolution of Chaos army lists. When the Horus Heresy was first invented back in Space Marine 1st edition there was only one army list that was used by both sides. Equipment followed the same trend as post-heresy (or should that be vice versa): Tacticals had boltguns + specials & heavies. Assault marines had hth weapons and pistols. Devastators had boltguns + more heavy weapons. Forces were bought in 'detachments' of 20 men (except Tacticals which were 40) which were based on stands of 5 men. Annoyingly the book never quantified which was supposed to be a squad, however when Chaos Terminator rules were released for 40k they stated that they were always bought in squads of 5 as they usually clung to the pre-heresy organisation as part of their elan.
Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness kept to the Tactical/Assault/Devastator divide in regards to armament albeit altering squad sizes to reflect post-Heresy allegiances: Black Legion stuck to 10-man squads whilst World Eaters and Emperors Children used their gods sacred numbers.
Then GW brought out a post-Heresy Chaos Raiding list for Space Marine, in this Chaos Space Marines were reduced to a single squad type: Chaos Space Marines. The squad had the weapons of a devastator with the close combat skill of an assault squad, why? Was it a retcon to the pre-heresy armament and organisation? No. It reflected the nature of post-heresy chaos marines: anarchic bands formed from the broken remnants of the traitor legions, with squads formed from survivors of different squad types. The 2nd edition codex followed in the footsteps of this going with a single squad type of 5-10 men that could freely mix bolters & ccws as well as taking 0-3 heavies. When 3rd edition came around they had to split this out again to fit in with the Force Organisation Chart so we wound up getting Havocs and Raptors.
A lot of people like to look at the Chaos Codex as a pure representation of the Legions as if the modern renegades were highly disciplined martial warriors who had painstakingly adhered to the original organisation as laid out by the Emperor when the legions 11,000 years ago, but given the aforementioned evolution of the lists I have a hard time accepting that. To me a 20-man CSM squad with an aspiring sergeant, a special and a heavy does not represent a Pre-Heresy Tactical squad who due to warp time-distortions only fled the Heresy a few months ago, to me that squad is more likely the remnants of an entire company - the dozen surviving tactical marines, a half dozen surviving assault marines plus a handful of devastators led by maybe a senior sergeant but just as likely to be the former captain. Raptor & Havoc squads are just as likely to be remnants of Assault & Devastator companies.
Um, I suppose I could just have said "I don't buy squads being massive just because their parent unit was" >.<