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View Full Version : Invocation of nehek + blood knights, hexwrights and vargheists. Heal more than 1



Texhnolyze
18-01-2012, 11:33
I have a smal problem with the invocation spell regarding blood knights and vargheists.

If a lv 3 necromancer targets a unit of blood knights that has lost 4 models, with invocation of nehek (gets them inside the range bubble), he would raise 4 blood knights. 1+ wizard level. ( they are cavalry).

This would happen because resurrecting the fallen rule states that models with the vampiric rule (IMPORTANT! Models, not units!) only regain 1 wound from invocation. But the target is a unit where every model only has 1 wound, hence it would resurrect 4 blood knights, one wound each, not breaking the rule of resurrecting the fallen.

The blood knight situation would also be true for a unit of hexwrights.

The vargheists is the same, but how it resurrects would be different under different situations.

If a unit of 3 vargheists has taken 4 wounds.
Invocation of nehek would heal one wound on the injured model, brining it back to full wounds, then it would continue and resurrect one vargheists, bringing it back with just one wound.

But if the unit has taken 5 wounds, it would just heal 1 wound on the damaged vargheist brining it back to 2 out of 3 wounds. But then it would stop, since it can not heal another wound on the same model, and it can not resurrect a vargheist before all the other are at full wound capacity.

Voss
18-01-2012, 12:39
This is correct. Did you have a question?

locked
18-01-2012, 12:41
Here is how I see it.

Bloodknights are Vampires they only regain 1 wound due IoN and since they only have 1 wound you cant heal another one with the lore attribute.

Vargheists are Vampires too but they are multiwound models so if a Vargheist lost 2 of his 3 W in battle. You may heal 1 would due IoN and 1 more thanks to the Lore Attribute.

Voss
18-01-2012, 12:48
Here is how I see it.

Bloodknights are Vampires they only regain 1 wound due IoN and since they only have 1 wound you cant heal another one with the lore attribute.

Vargheists are Vampires too but they are multiwound models so if a Vargheist lost 2 of his 3 W in battle. You may heal 1 would due IoN and 1 more thanks to the Lore Attribute.

No, the OP summarized things correctly. Its 1 W per _model_ with Vampiric, Ethereal or Large Target. So you can bring a full unit of single wound cav back, regardless of the fact that they are vampires or ethereal.

Its quite possible that this is an error that will be FAQed, but at the moment it clearly states model, not unit.

Texhnolyze
18-01-2012, 12:59
This is correct. Did you have a question?

Well, I wanted to know if I had it right, since it might come up when I play. And I don't want to argue for using IoN the wrong way.

Thanks thought

Kriegschmidt
18-01-2012, 15:07
I suspect that it may be changed when the FAQ comes out, but for now it does clearly say, "1 wound per model", and you have to follow the rule about not bringing another model back until the first has been fully healed.

So yes, the OP is correct: Blood Knights and Hexwraiths work the same as Dire Wolves, Black Knights, etc. (at least until we get an FAQ).

Kloud13
18-01-2012, 16:33
I think the "Rule as Intended" is quite clear as all of you state "until it get's FAQ'd ".

Trying to raise multiple Blood Knights with a single casting of IoN and pointing out the RAW is obviously a DICK move.

Don't abuse the the RAW, or the FAQ will be likely to nerf the multiple raising of Black Knights as well.

Texhnolyze
18-01-2012, 19:13
I think the "Rule as Intended" is quite clear as all of you state "until it get's FAQ'd ".

Trying to raise multiple Blood Knights with a single casting of IoN and pointing out the RAW is obviously a DICK move.

Don't abuse the the RAW, or the FAQ will be likely to nerf the multiple raising of Black Knights as well.

I think that it's RAI that the Lore attribute can heal Characters too, and so does a lot of other people.

And if someone points out the RAW it its obviously a DICK move.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
18-01-2012, 19:21
I think the "Rule as Intended" is quite clear as all of you state "until it get's FAQ'd ".

Trying to raise multiple Blood Knights with a single casting of IoN and pointing out the RAW is obviously a DICK move.

Don't abuse the the RAW, or the FAQ will be likely to nerf the multiple raising of Black Knights as well.

Excuse me, are you Phil Kelly? I'm not seeing any other way for you to know so clearly what is RAI and RAW in this case.

And insulting people while threatening them with the whole "If you keep going on using the rules as they are written then GW will for some reason FAQ another unit which isn't part of the issue" isn't really very good form.

On topic, that is the correct reading of the rules.

valle
19-01-2012, 07:53
Hmm, that makes bloodknights much more viable, it didnt make much sense to me that they should heal only 1 wound, but i read it as "per unit" not "per model"... Great spot

T10
19-01-2012, 13:35
If a unit of 3 vargheists has taken 4 wounds.
Invocation of nehek would heal one wound on the injured model, brining it back to full wounds, then it would continue and resurrect one vargheists, bringing it back with just one wound.

In this case you correctly state that the unit has taken damage, but then you apply the healing to the model.

Wounds on units consisting of multiple-wound models are not attributed to specific models. It seems to me that you cannot rightly assume that healing is attributed to a specific model either.

-T10

EDMM
19-01-2012, 13:37
It doesn't say "one wound per model" it says "models" with rule X.

A unit of Blood Knights are "models" with rule x. Those "models" (plural, collective) can't gain more than 1 Wound from the spell.

OldMaster
19-01-2012, 13:52
Seems to me that it's a writing style quirk.

"Models" refers to both units and single models - if it stated "units", people would argue single models would be unaffected.

DarcinCole
20-01-2012, 11:40
Interpretting this as only affecting models is a mistake. It affects units and models. I expect an FAQ though for clarity. You get into difficulties trying to interpet the rule when it affects only models and as has been pointed out the spell works differently dependant upon the circumstances.

The simplest option is normally the correct one, An etheral unit or model can only gain 1 would per casting. This way the spell works consistently too.

valle
20-01-2012, 13:38
Well, it does make sense that etheral and monsters should only heal 1 wound, but i really fail to see why they would allow vargheist to heal only 1 while crypt horrors can regain up to 5 the same goes for bloodknights... This just add to the confution though.

Ape
20-01-2012, 13:39
No, the OP summarized things correctly. Its 1 W per _model_ with Vampiric, Ethereal or Large Target. So you can bring a full unit of single wound cav back, regardless of the fact that they are vampires or ethereal.

Its quite possible that this is an error that will be FAQed, but at the moment it clearly states model, not unit.

well.... if you use RAW and say "1 W per _model_ with Vampiric, Ethereal or Large Target" can be healed with 1 IoN THEN you should use logic RAW completely.
As mentioned the number of Blood Knights that may be healed is dependant on the number of Models still alive. If a unit of 5 Bloodknights looses 4 of it and only 1 remains when u cast IoN then you have only 1! model which can regain 1 wound, even if you use a lvl 3 Necro. The 3+1 Wounds is only the maximum ammount you can achieve. but since your unit of Bloodknights only consist of 1 model remaining also only 1 wound can be regained.

Skywave
20-01-2012, 19:01
Ah the sweet memory this thread bring :) Just like it was with the TK lore, peoples are trying left and right to get more out of the rules by overanalysing and get more out of the healing spell. Just like they tried to heal TK characters or to get more than 1 wounds on construct, now it's the same with vampire and ethereal :)

Personally I think it's 1 wound per vampire/etheral, be it a single model or a unit. I play Vampire too, but I can't see it done the other way. Bringing multiple Blood Knights that easily (over 200pts with a single spell)? I don't think so!

I wouldn't cry if the FAQ comes out and say the opposite (my opponent might though), but I won't hold my breath for that to happen ;)

skirder
20-01-2012, 23:40
my VC friend made a good "wish" for the faq. Make it d3 per unit, and 1 on lone models. it fixes the vargheists underpowered invocation, as well as the bloodknights overpowered invocation. it also maintains that monsters and characters can't be instantly healed 5 wounds in one go.

EDMM
21-01-2012, 02:30
In this thread: Desperate wishlisting.