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TheKingInYellow
20-01-2012, 04:19
So there is a good debate over this over on the Stronghold, but it's hard to get a broad opinion on a forum dedicated to one army, so I thought I would ask Warseer.

The Thundertusk has multiple shooting attacks - one rider has a harpoon launcher, one has a chain trap, and the monster itself has a frost-wreathed sphere of ice. It's pretty clear that the harpoon and chain trap must be fired at the same unit if they are both used, but what about the sphere of ice which fires as a stone thrower?

There are two basic opinions on this:

1. The sphere must also be fired at the same unit. This opinion is largely based on the unit shooting rules that state that all models in a unit must target the same enemy unit when shooting.

2. The sphere can be fired independently. This opinion is largely based on the stone thrower rules which states that you do not target a unit, but simply place a template and then scatter it. Additionally, he rules stated in the first opinion don't apply since the rules in that section specifically do not apply to war machines, and the Sphere is treated as a stone thrower.

I'm firmly of opinion #2, but I can see the argument for #1, I just don't think it applies when you are dealing with a war machine.

So, which way should it be handled?

TheKingInYellow
21-01-2012, 00:55
No idea, huh? Yeah it's a tough one.

EDMM
21-01-2012, 02:28
Units can't fire at different targets.

A monster like the Thundertusk is a unit of a single model.

TheKingInYellow
21-01-2012, 02:34
But a stonethrower has no target. The rules state you only place a template.

EDMM
21-01-2012, 02:37
Line of sight is always taken from the chosen firing point (i.e. its muzzle or crossbar in the same way as for its range) - before you fire the war machine pivot it to face your chosen target (this doesn't coun as moving
Page 109, main rulebook, War Machines, Shooting with War Machines

TheKingInYellow
21-01-2012, 02:40
Sorry, I should have clarified. Clearly you have to pick a spot to shoot at with the war machine, but there is no requirement to target a unit. You could target and empty space on the field if you wanted.

Skywave
21-01-2012, 03:02
There's no clear answer to that I fear. The Bolt Thrower state to use the regular targetting rules, the Cannon state that the target can be a spot on the ground, but the Stone Thrower isn't clear. We can interpret it in many ways and debate about it, but for the spirit of the game I would say it should target the same unit as the crews.

While it use the Stone Thrower rules, it's still a combined models with multiple shooting attacks and would play like this unless FAQ differently.

WusteGeist
21-01-2012, 06:51
Sorry, I should have clarified. Clearly you have to pick a spot to shoot at with the war machine, but there is no requirement to target a unit. You could target and empty space on the field if you wanted.

That is not true even in the smallest way. What you and your lot are trying to pull is not just wrong but painfully wrong. The stone thrower does say you must have a target, there is no more target a blank spot of ground. Simply for the sheer purpose of removing shooting into combat by accident. This line your taking stinks of bsery and foul game play. You must have a valid target. So stop trying to chisel out an edge and expect the fact that your beast must have ALL its shots target ONE and ONLY one unit for its fire. You don't like it tough.

TheKingInYellow
21-01-2012, 12:34
That is not true even in the smallest way. What you and your lot are trying to pull is not just wrong but painfully wrong. The stone thrower does say you must have a target, there is no more target a blank spot of ground. Simply for the sheer purpose of removing shooting into combat by accident. This line your taking stinks of bsery and foul game play. You must have a valid target. So stop trying to chisel out an edge and expect the fact that your beast must have ALL its shots target ONE and ONLY one unit for its fire. You don't like it tough.

I expect a difference in an opinion but give me a break. I'm not a competitive player, never been to a tournament. I'm just reading the rules here and nowhere in the stone thrower rules are you ever told to target a unit. You just place the template where you wish. How is it wrong to follow the rules?

Here's a scenario: 2 hordes of skaven slaves and inch apart. Say I am playing TK. Can I not place the hole in the template between them and try and hit both to force both to make a panic test? Even more obvious is a cannon shot, if I have to target a unit, how am I ever going to hit anything once I roll for extra distance?

WusteGeist
21-01-2012, 17:06
I expect a difference in an opinion but give me a break. I'm not a competitive player, never been to a tournament. I'm just reading the rules here and nowhere in the stone thrower rules are you ever told to target a unit. You just place the template where you wish. How is it wrong to follow the rules?

Here's a scenario: 2 hordes of skaven slaves and inch apart. Say I am playing TK. Can I not place the hole in the template between them and try and hit both to force both to make a panic test? Even more obvious is a cannon shot, if I have to target a unit, how am I ever going to hit anything once I roll for extra distance?

A because a stone thrower says you must target a unit. So just stop with that crap just stop. You don't target the ground or the trees next to the unit you target the unit.

B cannons follow there own rules for targeting. Thats how you hit something with a cannon you follow its very much different rules for shooting. You dont try and use the rules to own purpose when the rules dont allow it. You follow the rules as they are.

Give you a break? YOu have seen the rules for stone throwers its clear as fracking day what they say. Stop trying to get more out of that unit than your allowed. IF GW grants you an faq saying you may target different units with its shots then great until then suck it up and follow the rules like everyone else and stop trying to gain an edge, with illegal shots.

Gunless Ganger
21-01-2012, 17:36
A because a stone thrower says you must target a unit. ... You don't target the ground or the trees next to the unit you target the unit.


I'm not sure about that:
For stone thrower firing, the only restrictions are that the hole must be within the max. range, and you can't put the template so that it touches any friendly models, or models in combat. The next sentence reads:
BRB Pg 114 - "If placed over an enemy unit, the hole in the middle of the template must be placed over a single model".

That would imply that the template does not need to be placed directly over an enemy unit.

However - does that allow you to send the template off against another unit when your riders shoot one unit? I don't know.

TheKingInYellow
21-01-2012, 17:49
WusteGeist, have you actually read the stone thrower rules? Go get your BRB, Gunless Ganger has it right. There is exactly zero requirement to place the template over a unit. As Gunless also points out the rule of placing the template over the unit is highlighted as a special case.