PDA

View Full Version : Help with choosing specific army! *grmbl*



RobbiP
23-04-2006, 02:05
Alright- I'm debating whether to go Brets, Empire, Tomb Kings, Hordes of Chaos, or Beasts of Chaos. Here are my dilemnas...

1) I like knights, chariots, gyrocopters, and whatnot as my troops. Basically anything that's NOT infantry. Therefore, the army I'd choose would ideally allow for either heavy cavalry or chariots as a core choice. This automatically reduces the choices to Brets, Empire, TK, HoC, and BoC. Notice how I said heavy cavalry; alot of other races have light cavalry as core troops but these are only good for the flanks- I want the charging stuff =P

2) Brets and Empire (knights) I think can get replaced by TK's Heavy Cavalry. They all depend on the charge to break the unit, but what the Heavy Cav lacks in strength it makes up with fear and the ability to regrow lost troops thanks to magic. Also, the TKs have chariots, which I think would work well with the cav (the Heavy Cav do the flank/side work, the chariot(s) do the key charge)

3) The painting + models. Bret's knights look like idiots (no offense lol) with their goofy dragons and birds on their helms. The empire knights look decent, but I heard that they're getting new codex + models fairly soon (?) so I think it would be kind of pointless. The Kings are easy to paint (good for tournies) and look fairly nifty.

4) Chaos knights are rock hard and fairly fearsome, I agree. However, they cost significantly more than most other troops in terms of both money and points. Also, Chaos chariots are really good (game play and money wise) yet the models themselves look hideous (yeah I could convert the old warriors to new ones, but that would involve spending yet more money lol)

5) Beasts of Chaos got no cav, but core chariots that are at a decent point cost lets me have lots of chariots which = lotsa fun. Also, I could take like minotaurs and stuff too, which are pretty neat. Shame the chariot can't have marks though..

6) The TK has the weakest cav (stats wise) yet I think that fear + the liche magic makes up for it (as well as that 25pt banner that lets the unit regrow) Does this logic make sense?

Anyways, these are my key arguements that I'm debating over in my head at the moment. As I stated before, I'm a guy who doesn't like the boring average footsloggers and likes something a little more fluffy or unique. Armies with like, all chariots or all knights or all _________ are cool because they all share a theme and look more impressive on the battlefield. So yeah, anyone wanna help me choose an army based on my arguements and ideas?

P.S. Having an 'all _whatever_' army doesn't mean I'm going to exclusively stock up on that 1 unit alone; I will take some other support units as well. However, the army is going to be centered around that _unit_ and hence that unit will be the most abundant in the list. (Just clarrifying it up so you guys don't think I want an army with like, 500 chariots only or something lol)

Thanks in advance guys =)

momfreeek
23-04-2006, 02:36
I don't think tomb kings would work without infantry (need somewhere to put the liches). Maybe they could, but it seems unlikely.

Beast chariots are good. I play beasts and know people who use a lot of chariots (4+). Personally, I don't think its the best way to go. You can't mark them or put many characters in beast chariots. So not an interesting choice to base an army around (although still a good unit choice). You can build a beast army with very minimal infantry (although you'd be stupid not to include some beastherds). A Doombull (minotaur lord) lead beast army can be mostly minotaurs. maybe thats an option.

Mortal chaos chariots are good too if a bit expensive. You can mark them (eg Mark of Tzeentch) and put your characters in them. More versatile than beast chariots in this sense. However: khorne chariots are a liability (frenzy not best for a chariot), slaanesh chariots are a bit pointless, nurgle chariots a bit pointless too. As has been said before a tzeentch chariot army can work. This has been tried and has had some success. Its the way to get the most power dice in any army I think (lots of cheap units with Mark of Tzeentch). Its boring though. More a way to overpower magic than be an effective attack force. With mortal chaos, a fast army without any infantry can certainly work. knights, chariots, fast daemons, monsters etc.. etc.. Mortals and Beasts can be mixed of course.

Empire knights suck. Not good enough to build an army on. A good empire army has much artillery and infantry. (I would expect this to become more pronounced rather than less come the new book).

Brettonians are good without any infantry. How about a bret army made from empire knights? Could be interesting.

505
23-04-2006, 03:25
one thing all bret knight boxes come with heads that have the dragons and birds and stuff

AND

a head for each figure that doesend to represent knight errents most are without helmets of any sort. (I however don't like the empire horses but thats just me)

the empire gets a 1+ save while the brets do not....however the brets get the blessingwich may not save as often as I would like but I feel its better then the +1 to armor

by the way your forgot the HE they get silver helms as a core dragon princes and chariots as a special

Bingo the Fun Monkey
23-04-2006, 03:45
zomg!! teh cav is teh UBER! Nifantry is teh suq coz US1, M<7 (!!!). Beengo teechez yuo HAMMERWAR!!!: lissen:skull:

Beengo taks MOTRAL CHOAS like tihs: (I won 132412423412351 tourneys in UK and peeps love me LOL:angel: ).
Zteenhc lrod on Dorgan with EYE and SATFF (3+ invincibility LOL:cool: )
Teench Eaxltd GW, Pwoer Familir on CHARIOT
8xChariots wit MO Teench
2x9 (nin is teh # of Teench LOL) CHOSEN KNIGHTS

Tihs maks fer leet Warband at 1000 pst.:chrome:

Hope tihs helpzorz.
</idiot>

Realistically, I'd recommend you take a Doombull army with a couple chariots and centigor units. A smattering of warhounds can't hurt either. My main gripe about the Doombull army is that it's kinda hard to theme (what with there being no hero-level minos, not to mention cow-shamans). Still, taking a beast shaman with the lore of slaanesh can make the game rather interesting, although you shouldn't base your gameplay on that. Good luck with deciding, tho!

EDIT: in response to the comment below about taking an all cav HE force. This, it seems to me (from my local area as well as what I see online) is the cookie cutter high elf army of 6th edition. It's hardly unique (except Rob Lane's uses the gorgeous 5th ed helms) and is not really that enjoyable for either player. Cavalry armies are very one-dimensional and once an opponent learns to deal with them, it becomes a very boring game for both people. I think it would be wise to have a mixture of different troop types to fulfill various roles. I think the greatest fun in the game is to have a versatile army. Just me two RMB.

joshypoo
23-04-2006, 06:34
Don't forget High Elves. Silver Helms, Dragon Princes, Ellyrion Reavers and Eagles mean you will pretty much run the movement phase. Not bad models either.

p.s. since you're playing a game that is intended for BOTH players to enjoy I would avoid the Tzeentch chariot army.

RobbiP
23-04-2006, 14:08
Yeah- the Tzeentch army I've heard about before. I think it'd be kinda cheap (as as mentioned before, those HIDEOUS chariot models)

What I didn't know is that Brets have alternate heads for their knights- very cool indeed.

Regarding HE- wow didn't even notice their silver helms! Just a question about the HE range of models- are they all fairly new and updated? Like, I don't want to buy models only to have new ones come out shortly after.

Another reason I realized that Beasts chariots might not work for me is the lack of artillery or range- that's always good for killing heavier squads, and having a melee only army puts a bit of restrictions?

Anyways thatnks so far guys, but I still haven't made up my mind. aaaargh =(
All help is GREATLY appreciated
Thanks.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
23-04-2006, 14:43
Yeah- the Tzeentch army I've heard about before. I think it'd be kinda cheap (as as mentioned before, those HIDEOUS chariot models)

What I didn't know is that Brets have alternate heads for their knights- very cool indeed.

Regarding HE- wow didn't even notice their silver helms! Just a question about the HE range of models- are they all fairly new and updated? Like, I don't want to buy models only to have new ones come out shortly after.

Another reason I realized that Beasts chariots might not work for me is the lack of artillery or range- that's always good for killing heavier squads, and having a melee only army puts a bit of restrictions?

Anyways thatnks so far guys, but I still haven't made up my mind. aaaargh =(
All help is GREATLY appreciated
Thanks.

1: the Tzeench chariot army is incredibly falliable despite people saying it's cheesy (which it is..but it's also retarded).
2: You could always take empire knights and put them on bret horsies
3: the HE range is pretty new except for their swordmaster and white lions (but you're not interested in infantry so no worries there...the chariots and reavers are kinda dated though, but still really nice models)
4: a lot of armies do perfectly fine without artillery...in fact, if you take a fast army, it might be rather redundant to invest points in "heavy support". By the way, unlike 40k, it is *very* rare that a war-machine (besides a ratling gun or a battery of organ guns/hellblasters) can annihilate any "heavy" units. Shooting in fantasy is to a) cause panic checks b) thin the ranks c) annihilate small skirmisher units.

Just another two cents...

StormCrow
23-04-2006, 14:59
For what its worth: i dont think you can make a tomb king army work well unless you take a combination of all their different unit types. I know for certain that an all chariot force doesnt work (woodelves murdered me, and a chaos HERO killed three in one combat phase) but you already said you wouldnt use all chariots so i guess it wouldnt apply.Tomb kings really need to outnumber their opponents to do well, so chariots and cavalry play more of a support role to mop up the enemy rather than primary destroyers in the TK list. If you do go with the TK's though, make sure you get a tomb scorpion, they are super awesome deluxe.

EDIT: you could always use ushabti as a replacement for infantry to hold up units until your chariots/cavalry can kill them, but from my experience you're much better off using the standard foot soldier even if it takes longer for them to get into combat. Also, taking a unit of 16 heavy horsemen is a very old and effective trick in the tomb king list as they almost always outnumber and can usually win combats if given the appropriate gear like the war banner. usually you've got +6 to your CR before fighting begins, handy when you autobreak an enemy that you beat in combat and outnumber.

RobbiP
23-04-2006, 16:58
Ah I see... as a 40k player, I'm used to the whole Pie Plates of Doom approach lol... apparantly, war machines suck in Fantasy (so I heard) but I thought their main purpose was to kill the heavier stuff your infantry would have trouble with?

The HE look pretty neat, with their Elvish knights and stuff. Same with Brets though... between Silver Helms vs. Bret knights, which are stronger and why?

And regarding the TK army- yea, the all chariots idea kind of has left me =P but the cavalry idea is still with me. The idea of undead knights is awesome. However, few questions for the TK players (preferably StormCrow, as he has 4k points of em lol)

1) So taking 16-man-blocks of Heavy Horsies is better than the 8-man ones?
2) I'd use scorps for sure- however, is carrion worth anything?
3) I can have my Liches riding on horses in Heavy Cav squads, right? Or should I mount them in Light Cav squads, so they don't get into melee and stay a safe distance?

Thanks so far guys. I'm slowly narrowing my choices down :P
(And once again, all help greatly appreciated)

joshypoo
23-04-2006, 19:30
Raw power goes to Bretonnians, their lances hit harder and their characters are meaner but if you're a thinker you'll probably bet more satifaction out of HE.

and seriously...flying knights...what next? killer dancing elves?

505
23-04-2006, 19:40
bret vrs HE cav is avery good fight I would give it to the brets.

although bret units are a bit more expensive (Im going by my mind here don't have books)
I beleive for a 5 man unit of SH vrs knights of the relm the kor are 5 points more. the Kor get +1 movment and the blessing not bad for +1 point per model.

also the brets get the lance formation so if they get the charge thats a lot of attacks.

the elves get the dragon princes wich are a match in movment. the reavers are better then the squires but the brets dont get chariots

the only problem your dragon princes reavers, and chariots are all fighting for a special slot. (I always feild dragon princes cause I likte the models)

anyways I have both armies and I enjoy both.

Im not a TK player but as a rule youll never get a straight answer of 16 vs 8

some say that 16 is to much points in one unit (adding chars and all) and a huge point sink and that MSU (multiple small units) of 5 or more are best.
some say that a unit of 16 will crush anything it hits (and has the man power to stay if they dont break them)

carrion like any flyer unit is worth something (march blocking mage hunting artillery crew hunting) but other then teh generality of that I don't know if they are a staple in TK armies

your lich (the one that is the hyropheant) should stay as far away from combat as posible you don't want him dead or your army will start to fall apart

anyways a HE cav army is not neccesarrilly cookie cutter (although yes alot of them take em) does it mean that they are usless and shouldnt be used?

if thats the case bret cav armies, undead skely armies scaven sad armies dwarf shooty armies..........should all be hung out case they seem to all be the same.

Kaizer
23-04-2006, 19:55
Sound like you would enjoy Brets the most. The all-mounted Bret army is easy to build/buy and is easy to learn with. In regards to the helms, I think they have "helmetless" heads on the spure.

RGB
23-04-2006, 20:07
Finally, you can always take a Bret army and theme them to be an Empire or Tilean all-knight army, say they are Templars of Morr/Sigmar/Verena/Ulric/Myrmydia or whatever.

If you prefer horses in Caprison vs. Gothic Barding it's easy and relatively cheap to mail-order them. Other than that, Empire knights can be used to repesent any knights, model-wise. So you're not limited to Bret minis if you don't like them. You can use KotWW as Questing knights, for example, and so on.

althathir
23-04-2006, 20:14
I also think brets would be the ideal choice for you. They don't have chariots but they hit really hard because of the lance formation and because of the lance also get better combat res., HE don't hit as hard and really need a combined charge inorder to win combat a lot of the time and I think you want your cav. to be able to win without support. Thier characters are better then HE char. IMO in close combat. Also their army book is relatively new so you don't have to worry about rule changes or new models anytime soon.

gortexgunnerson
23-04-2006, 23:30
Ah I see... as a 40k player, I'm used to the whole Pie Plates of Doom approach lol... apparantly, war machines suck in Fantasy (so I heard) but I thought their main purpose was to kill the heavier stuff your infantry would have trouble with?

Artillery are great in fantasy and but can lead to a dull game as they have a tendency to either crush armies or are quickly mopped up. There is little tactic movement and the game is based on target selection and dice. Much like all cavalry armies, the game is decided before it has started


And regarding the TK army- yea, the all chariots idea kind of has left me =P but the cavalry idea is still with me. The idea of undead knights is awesome. However, few questions for the TK players (preferably StormCrow, as he has 4k points of em lol)

1) So taking 16-man-blocks of Heavy Horsies is better than the 8-man ones?
2) I'd use scorps for sure- however, is carrion worth anything?
3) I can have my Liches riding on horses in Heavy Cav squads, right? Or should I mount them in Light Cav squads, so they don't get into melee and stay a safe distance?

1) Heavy cavalry for tome kings are pretty lame troops in general and I have none in my Tome Kings. But if forced to choose I would say 16 with a character or 2 as their unlikely to kill much so will need ranks etc
2)scorpion are amazingly powerful if a touch unreliable, and carrion are a total must have. have played my first tournment with TK and got 4 wins 1 draw off 5 games and in every one they played a vital roll. I used 3 costing 72 points and in most the carrion either killed a warmachine on the first turn, or acting as a missile magnet drawing fire and dispel scroll out.
3)Liches can't ride chariots so you need infantry or horse to protect them. In my TK I had a unit of 12 archers to protect 2 lich priests on foot, gave hierophant cloak of dunes to allow him to move later in the game and to flee from mage hunters and I had a unit of 7 light horse to cover my mounted priest.

I used chariots and a unit of ushabti as my main attacking force but found them very likely to bounce off units. The army is a real skill army to play an offensive list and if it is your fantasy list I would not suggest them to you. Firstly and most importantly they don't follow several of the basic rules of warhammer and hence the army is not a good one to learn game mechanics as lots of odd situations not covered by the rules arise. Secondly the tactics behind them are very unique and require lots of play to get right or else your entire army can just crumble