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Spawn of Icarus
22-01-2012, 23:51
Came up recently but havent seen it made clearer in an errata, when does my corpse cart use the chariot rules and when does it use the ridden monster rules? Also is my necromancer benefiting from a 5+ save from the 5+ chariot save or a 6+ save for being on a monster and no armour/ shield?

P105
CHARIOT MOUNT
If a character has taken a chariot as a mount, the whole model is treated as having the troop type 'chariot' and follows all the rules for both characters and chariot models.

Characters riding on chariots cannot join other units.
A chariot mount otherwise follows all the rules for ridden monsters (see below), save for the fact that a chariot does not need to take a Monster Reaction test if the character is slain.



RIDDEN MONSTERS AND ARMOUR SAVES P105 Brb
Just as with regular cavalry, a ridden monster affords its rider an element of additional protection. A character on a ridden monster counts his armour save as being 1 point better than normal (see cavalry on page 82).

SPLIT PROFILE Brb P.86
In a similar manner to cavalry, a chariot has more than one set of characteristics, one for the beasts, one for the crew and one for the chariot itself, and is treated as a single model...
The Wounds, Toughness and armour saves of the crew and the beasts are never used hits are resolved against the chariot's Wounds, Toughness and Armour Save. It is the crew's Weapon Skill that is used for the purposes of the enemy rolling to hit, just as with cavalry

Figured i'd ask here before emailing GW for an answer in case someone has seen an "official" answer before :P

AMWOOD co
23-01-2012, 05:39
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that it's the same model for the corpse cart and so the necromancer is the only 'crewman'. If this is the case, it is another character driven chariot, just like the War Altar, Daemon chariots, and Tomb King chariots. While there are rule gaps, the common method is that you will use the WS of any 'steeds' for when the chariot is attacked, use the Chariots own WS, and so forth. Your character is perched on top in the same manner as if he were riding a monster and every other part of the corpse cart is a single Split Profile model. Finally, your armour save will be only 6+ as there is nothing to indicate that you get the save of the chariot anymore.

Spawn of Icarus
23-01-2012, 17:37
so characters ignore the chariot unit type split profile rules for on page 86 but mooks use them for regular chariots even though chariot mounted characters follow all the rules for chariots + characters? Was there an errata to remove the contradictory statement from the brb as it looks like they need to define when the mount would "otherwise" use the ridden monster rules?

Is it worth phoning GW to get an answer? (i'm guessing thats how you ask these things or is there a particular email address to send it too?)

LiddellHart
23-01-2012, 19:00
Is it worth phoning GW to get an answer? (i'm guessing thats how you ask these things or is there a particular email address to send it too?)

Hahaha I'd rather make something up myself, roll a die or ask my four- year-old son than phoning the probably outsourced GW callcenter.
(Tapatalk@Galaxy)

knightime98
23-01-2012, 19:11
One piece of advice, - phoning GW in almost all cases will leave you with more questions than real answers. Here's why... You can call 3 times and talk to 3 different staffers and get 3 different answers. That's for starters. Next, say that you do get an answer.. Now, relay that answer to your opponent by saying, "I called GW and they said, ....."... I can't ever recall using that line and having my opponent say, OH since you called Gw and they told you then I'm fine with it... That just doesn't work especially in a competitive environment.

Moving forward, the rules say that the Corpse cart is a chariot. I don't know why they left the 'ridden monster' bit in there as this is a carry over from 7th edition. For me it is really simple, count it as a chariot as the rules clearly indicate that was the intention. So, it seems to me. If in doubt talk with your opponent before starting to see what agreement/arrangements you can make so that it is not an issue during the game. Place a note card on top of your cart just to remind you to ask. Simple enough and dissolves any further disagreement/arguments that may arise. Any reasonable player will work with you on this.

RanaldLoec
23-01-2012, 20:46
Right for all movement use the chariot rules as per the brb.

When been shot at or in combat this is where the ridden monster rules come into play eg:

Armour saves: A necromancer on a corpse cart gets a 6+ saving throw.

Combat: use the ridden monster rules and allocate attacks against the rider or mount.

In combat when targeting the corpse cart ridden by a necromancer you use the restless deads weapon skill, initiative and the corpse carts toughness and wounds armour save and regen.

When targeting the necromancer use all his stats.

Hawthorne
23-01-2012, 22:24
I always assumed that the character got the mount's armor save in this case but looking in it clearly does not state that, so yeah that's a bit disappointing lol.

valle
24-01-2012, 06:23
Right for all movement use the chariot rules as per the brb.

When been shot at or in combat this is where the ridden monster rules come into play eg:

Armour saves: A necromancer on a corpse cart gets a 6+ saving throw.

Combat: use the ridden monster rules and allocate attacks against the rider or mount.

In combat when targeting the corpse cart ridden by a necromancer you use the restless deads weapon skill, initiative and the corpse carts toughness and wounds armour save and regen.

When targeting the necromancer use all his stats.

So are there any upsites to placing your necro on a corpse cart? :wtf: It dosnt seem like something you would do to me.

piperrepip
24-01-2012, 06:49
where does it say the corpse cart is a ridden monster? i cannot find it

Spawn of Icarus
24-01-2012, 09:12
Bad wording in the rule book p.105



P105
CHARIOT MOUNT
If a character has taken a chariot as a mount, the whole model is treated as having the troop type 'chariot' and follows all the rules for both characters and chariot models.

Characters riding on chariots cannot join other units.
A chariot mount otherwise follows all the rules for ridden monsters (see below), save for the fact that a chariot does not need to take a Monster Reaction test if the character is slain.


First time i read it i thought it was saying chariot type/ rules trump monster ones. eg randomised shots at the unit but apply chariots save like the chariot unit type tells you to on p.86. Can stab the guy of top of it/ target it in melee but it is a chariot therfore no thunderstomp etc. Now i'm just confused

What ever the intention it needs making clearer.

AMWOOD co
24-01-2012, 09:46
I'll try to make things clearer for you, so bear with me.

A character who is on a monster is considered to be of unit type monster while mounted. This doesn't mean he gets to make thunderstomps (that's the monster's shtik), but it does mean that he is immune to stomp attacks even if he's normally Infantry, spells that affect monsters will affect him, etc. Only Killing Blow cares that he's Infantry when not mounted (that and the possibility that the monster could die first, leaving him alone).

Now, ridden monsters have rules detailing how a character can be attacked in combat, hits are randomised from shooting, and that both take wounds separately. That, more than anything else, sums up the rules for ridden monsters. So, what does this have to do with a chariot?

Well, a character riding a chariot treats the chariot as if it were a monster that he is riding rather than if he were a member of the crew of the chariot. The difference between the chariot and a monster is that he is now of Unit Type Chariot rather than Monster (so still immune to stomps, still cannot join units except Tomb Kings, etc) and the chariot doesn't have to worry about Monster Reaction Tests if he dies. The chariot itself, apart from the character, still follows all the rules for a Split Profile Model (though some chariots have no normal crew when a character rides them like Tomb Kings), as well as having impact hits, etc. The character doesn't benefit from these (see the Special Rules mention on p82 in the Cavalry section, which p105 makes direct mention of) in any form other than he is always with the chariot. He gains the same advantages of being on a monster, namely improved maneuvreability, some protection against shooting, and a hard hitting aid in combat.

So, the important thing with a character on a chariot is that while he rides it he is not considered part of its crew but is a separate entity in the same manner that a character riding a monster is, he must use his own T and W and can be singled out in combat among (many) other things.

valle
24-01-2012, 11:38
I'll try to make things clearer for you, so bear with me.

He gains the same advantages of being on a monster, namely improved maneuvreability, some protection against shooting, and a hard hitting aid in combat.

So, the important thing with a character on a chariot is that while he rides it he is not considered part of its crew but is a separate entity in the same manner that a character riding a monster is, he must use his own T and W and can be singled out in combat among (many) other things.

In the case of the corpsecart, the "improved maneurrebility" is 4" that cannot march, the hard "hitting in combat" is not really something you associate with a necromancer, and anyways the corpsecart hits just as well wihtout him on it while his attack dosnt improve either way and the protection against shooting whould be 10 times better in a unit.

Mid'ean
24-01-2012, 12:01
where does it say the corpse cart is a ridden monster? i cannot find it


That's because it is no longer there. Searched myself and found no reference to it being any kind of ridden monster what so ever. It's a chariot. If you put a necro on it follow the character rules for riding a chariot. Done deal.

Spawn of Icarus
24-01-2012, 23:33
That's because it is no longer there. Searched myself and found no reference to it being any kind of ridden monster what so ever. It's a chariot. If you put a necro on it follow the character rules for riding a chariot. Done deal.

The problem confusion im experiencing is caused by the characters with chariot mount rules in the BRB/ main rule book p.105 (see quote in earlier post) not the vampire counts book itself. The corpse cart question is just how it affects my army personally.

AMWOOD co
25-01-2012, 01:52
The problem confusion im experiencing is caused by the characters with chariot mount rules in the BRB/ main rule book p.105 (see quote in earlier post) not the vampire counts book itself. The corpse cart question is just how it affects my army personally.

As I said earlier, just treat the character the same as if he were on a monster. The chariot is treated as a chariot as it always is, not counting the character as part of it. The interactions between the character and chariot is the same as character and monster. Simple as that.

Spawn of Icarus
25-01-2012, 17:18
Thats the problem.

This:

As I said earlier, just treat the character the same as if he were on a monster. The chariot is treated as a chariot as it always is, not counting the character as part of it. The interactions between the character and chariot is the same as character and monster. Simple as that.

Doesnt sound anything like this in my opinion:
If a character has taken a chariot as a mount, the whole model is treated as having the troop type 'chariot' and follows all the rules for both characters and chariot models.
Characters riding on chariots cannot join other units.
A chariot mount otherwise follows all the rules for ridden monsters (see below), save for the fact that a chariot does not need to take a Monster Reaction test if the character is slain. :wtf:

Email has been forwarded to the errata team :D If some more people could poke them about it at gamefaqs@games-workshop.co.uk that would make it more likely for them to give a clearer answer. I've no problem if they clarify it and corpse cart mounts are not worth taking but i'd rather GW put it in black and white how they work than it being a very vague multiple interpretation problem :P (Eg. give an example)

AMWOOD co
26-01-2012, 06:01
Okay, so what, precisely, is the problem? You've been dancing around something now, which up to this point I assumed was that you thought the character acted as a crewman for the chariot, which he does not.

Blkc57
26-01-2012, 06:35
What I think he is asking is what does a necromancer on the back of a corpse cart have in terms of benefits? I think he has a 6+ armor save for being mounted and thats about it. He doesn't suddenly become a chariot with all of its special rules just for being mounted on it, he just has the unit designation of chariot for the purpose of effects that target chariots, such as not being stomped and taking more serious dangerous terrain checks, but he is still a mounted character and special rules that benefit the mount don't extend to the rider (such as frenzy, hatred, regen, scaly skin etc etc etc) unless specifically stated they do.

SteelTitan
26-01-2012, 10:43
@ Amwood:

Does that mean that:


1. A character on a chariot is immune to killing blow? (On a monster he would not be, however, it is said that you should treat him as unit type chariot).

2. Would a Skink Priest on an Engine of the Gods not have the 2+ armour save because he is NOT part of the crew?

Spawn of Icarus
26-01-2012, 11:03
@ Amwood:

Does that mean that:


1. A character on a chariot is immune to killing blow? (On a monster he would not be, however, it is said that you should treat him as unit type chariot).

2. Would a Skink Priest on an Engine of the Gods not have the 2+ armour save because he is NOT part of the crew?

This+1

Mainly its point 1 for me it says to treat the whole model as unit type chariot "otherwise" use the rules for ridden monster but doesn't state which bits to use for what/ when the otherwise comes into effect. Eg i would say "i can work monday morning as i am free during the morning otherwise i am unable to work monday as i am busy in the afternoon" or use chariot rules x, y and z otherwise treat as ridden monster.

@Amwood: I'm not skipping round anything its just out of about a dozen people (some in my local area some in this thread) i've had about a dozen different ways it should be handled, i would just like it made clearer by GW so i don't have to remember a "different interpretation" of the vaguest rule wording in the Rulebook for every opponent i play/ learn a new interpretation each time a play someone new. Is that to much to ask?

SteelTitan
26-01-2012, 11:46
From the FAQ:

Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.

So characters mounted are also susceptible to killing blow AS LONG AS they have the option to be on foot too? Or in this case, the necromancer MOUNTED on a chariot can indeed be killing blowed because he can also be taken on foot. That's how I would interpret it anyway.

Just like with monstrous infantry/monsters, normally unit type 'chariot' cannot be killing blowed...but if you have a character on a chariot, he can because he could have been on foot...right?

Mid'ean
26-01-2012, 13:24
From the FAQ:

Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.

So characters mounted are also susceptible to killing blow AS LONG AS they have the option to be on foot too? Or in this case, the necromancer MOUNTED on a chariot can indeed be killing blowed because he can also be taken on foot. That's how I would interpret it anyway.

Just like with monstrous infantry/monsters, normally unit type 'cavalry' cannot be killing blowed...but if you have a character on a chariot, he can because he could have been on foot...right?

You are correct in your reading of the FAQ. Example of normal Bloodcrushers (MC) can not be KB'd. Skulltaker on a Bloodcrusher can be as he can be taken on foot (infantry). So as for the necro on the cart. Just follow the chariot rules for when a character is mounted on it.

SteelTitan
26-01-2012, 13:52
Does the character have to be available from the armylist in 'infantry form'? Or is it enough that it is an 'infantry-sized' model (e.g. azgah the slaughterer on his wyvern)?

Mid'ean
26-01-2012, 14:20
No, he doesn't have to be available in infantry form. Just can he be fielded as such. If he has the wyvren cut out from underneath him, can he be a solo model? Yes. Doesn't really make much sense as I can KB a character of a MC but can't KB a regular MC..... go figure.....lol

Balerion
26-01-2012, 15:01
From the FAQ:

Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.

So characters mounted are also susceptible to killing blow AS LONG AS they have the option to be on foot too? Or in this case, the necromancer MOUNTED on a chariot can indeed be killing blowed because he can also be taken on foot. That's how I would interpret it anyway.

Just like with monstrous infantry/monsters, normally unit type 'cavalry' cannot be killing blowed...but if you have a character on a chariot, he can because he could have been on foot...right?
This is a sidebar to our question, but I thought Cavalry models could be KB'd

Blkc57
26-01-2012, 15:41
They can be Kb'd. I think he meant to say monsterous cavalry.

SteelTitan
26-01-2012, 19:31
Sorry for the confusing...I changed that post but somehow it didn't get through...must be my internet connection. Cavalry cannot be KBed.
I'll change it to avoid more confusion.

AMWOOD co
27-01-2012, 01:21
@ Amwood:

Does that mean that:


1. A character on a chariot is immune to killing blow? (On a monster he would not be, however, it is said that you should treat him as unit type chariot).

2. Would a Skink Priest on an Engine of the Gods not have the 2+ armour save because he is NOT part of the crew?
1. Other's have answered this. Note, that the rules for Ridden Monsters say to treat him as Unit Type Monster (p105, Ridden Mosnters, 2nd paragraph), so this isn't something unique to chariots.

2. I'm not sure. I don't own the Lizardman book and a Steggadon isn't a chariot, so the term 'crew' has a different meaning here. When I refer to a chariot's crew, I mean the part of the Split Profile that it designates as crew, who use their WS to defend the chariot and are killed only when the chariot is killed. That's not how a character riding a chariot works.


This+1

Mainly its point 1 for me it says to treat the whole model as unit type chariot "otherwise" use the rules for ridden monster but doesn't state which bits to use for what/ when the otherwise comes into effect. Eg i would say "i can work monday morning as i am free during the morning otherwise i am unable to work monday as i am busy in the afternoon" or use chariot rules x, y and z otherwise treat as ridden monster.

@Amwood: I'm not skipping round anything its just out of about a dozen people (some in my local area some in this thread) i've had about a dozen different ways it should be handled, i would just like it made clearer by GW so i don't have to remember a "different interpretation" of the vaguest rule wording in the Rulebook for every opponent i play/ learn a new interpretation each time a play someone new. Is that to much to ask?

Well, if you read the entirety of Ridden Monsters, there's a reference to the character and the monster being treated as Unit Type Monster as a whole. If the character rides a chariot, it's silly to make him Unit Type Monster, so they put in that change. However, the rest of the page and a half section talks about how they can be hit and wounded separately even though they are a single model and what happens if one part dies and the other survives. If the rules for Ridden Chariots state to follow all the rules for Ridden Monsters, then you follow these rules. In fact, the only other rule you are instructed to change is that a chariot where the character has been killed doesn't need to make a Monster Reaction test as detailed on p106.

So, they can be wouned separately, hits are randomized from shooting, attacks are allocated in combat (and you do not use the character's WS if the mount is attacked), the character gets +1 armour, and either portion can die while the other survives.

Jim
27-01-2012, 09:31
If the chariot's steeds have barding does that only effect the chariot's armour save - or would it increase the Characters armour save from being mounted on it to 5+?

Jim

AMWOOD co
29-01-2012, 03:31
If the chariot's steeds have barding does that only effect the chariot's armour save - or would it increase the Characters armour save from being mounted on it to 5+?

Jim

Well, the armour of anything on or that is a part of the chariot doesn't affect the armour of the character riding it, but rather affects the armour save of the chariot itself. So, taking the Chaos Chariot, for example, while the steeds have barding, they simply are considered for a) the -1 M and b) part of the 3+ armour save of the chariot itself. Likewise, a monster with barding doesn't improve the armour of the guy riding it.

1mperator
30-01-2012, 07:58
Ok, so let me see if I'm getting this:

"If a character has taken a chariot as a mount, the whole model is treated as having the troop type 'chariot' and follows all the rules for both characters and chariot models..."

"A chariot mount otherwise follows all the rules for ridden monsters..."
(p.105 BRB)

On a plain reading I'd assume that one should use the chariot rules for all matters, except for rules those that aren't included in it. So since chariots have rules regarding armour saves, why would you use those the mounted monster rules instead?

"Chariots have a fixed armour save, as detailed in their army list entry. Such an armour save takes into account the hardiness of the chariot, the armour worn by the crew and any barding on the mounts (but barding still slows the model down)." (p.86)

Naturally this can be interpreted in two ways: either the character may replace his own armour save for the chariot's (whichever is better) or, as I believe, it adds to the character's save. For the first of these to be true, we would have to assume that the character and 'the crew' have the same armour save, which isn't always true. The second option is better because it assumes that the chariot model has its own armour save, and so does the character and would be added to the character's save in the same way a barded horse's would.

This idea is supported by the recently published army books. Why else would chariots have their armour save listed in the character mounts section (ex. TK p.89), where every other option refers to rules for a specific types of mount? If it doesn't affect the character's armour, then shouldn't it refer the reader to the ridden monster's section, why bother to list the chariot's save at all, or why not list the armour save of the mount if it's only there for hits against the monster itself?. Yet, none of these are in every army book and have not been removed in the errata or corrected in the faq (correct me if I'm wrong).

If you can refer me to an official comment on this please do so.

oldWitheredCorpse
30-01-2012, 11:26
This idea is supported by the recently published army books. Why else would chariots have their armour save listed in the character mounts section (ex. TK p.89), where every other option refers to rules for a specific types of mount? If it doesn't affect the character's armour, then shouldn't it refer the reader to the ridden monster's section, why bother to list the chariot's save at all, or why not list the armour save of the mount if it's only there for hits against the monster itself?. Yet, none of these are in every army book and have not been removed in the errata or corrected in the faq (correct me if I'm wrong).

The armour save bit is simple and clear. Characters on chariots get +1 AS, nothing more. However, when a chariot loses its crew because a character replaces them, it seems that the chariot becomes much easier to attack in one interpretation of the rules. There is no example in the BRB about chariots with only mounts (steeds) that say that the WS of the mounts is used to defend the chariots. There's only a sentence about the steeds profile is only there for their attacks. Also, it seems that different groups rule differently on this matter, sometimes allowing the character to defend his chariot, sometimes using the WS of the steeds.

This needs a FAQ answer as soon as possible.

AMWOOD co
31-01-2012, 05:44
Ok, so let me see if I'm getting this:

On a plain reading I'd assume that one should use the chariot rules for all matters, except for rules those that aren't included in it. So since chariots have rules regarding armour saves, why would you use those the mounted monster rules instead?


"Well here's your problem"

You have completely ignored that it says to use the rules for Ridden Monsters in all respects except those two listed (and look at the Ridden Monster's comment about unit type to understand why the character becomes type Chariot). What makes you think you should be doing otherwise?

Spawn of Icarus
31-01-2012, 15:03
You have completely ignored that it says to use the rules for Ridden Monsters in all respects except those two listed

but it doesn't, it says

"If a character has taken a chariot as a mount, the whole model is treated as having the troop type 'chariot' and follows all the rules for both characters and chariot models..."

"A chariot mount otherwise follows all the rules for ridden monsters..."
(p.105 BRB)

The problem is the way its worded in my opinion. It's a bit like saying:

"I work evenings otherwise i go to church."
vs
"I always go to church except when i'm at work"

The second one does indeed say X always happens except when a certain scenario happens but the problem is the BRB ruling is more like the first statement which just says both happen with no indication of which take priority/ when/ to what extent etc. Thats how i'm reading it, is it possible difference in interpretation could be an example of differences in use between English and American English? Would be nice to know how it translated roughly from a non English version as things like sentence structure etc will be different.

Personally i'd like more people to Email GW about it so we got a clear ruling. I'm less bothered about which way it get ruled just that it's clear. Preferably with an example and the effect of having all crew replaced by characters would be nice too. Basically if chariot mounts are going to be useless it would be nice if it was universally clear they were useless in black and white like how regular cavalry is explained.

That way I don't have to ask every opponent how he wants to play it...

Pavisel
31-01-2012, 17:06
Would someone please grab the brb and look up the character section?? it has rules regarding chariots right there. iirc, a character's save has two options - he may use the save of the chariot, or he may use his own armor save if it is better. in combat, if the character is slain, the whole chariot is removed; if the chariot is destroyed, the character continues on foot. the chariot itself may not be KB'd, but the character can be. if this leaves the chariot without any other crew, the chariot is also removed. you may choose to attack the chariot or the character, if there are no other crew, you will still hit against the character's WS because he is the crew. if there is crew beside the character, use the crew's WS when attacking the chariot. use the characters WS when attacking the character. the creature's/steeds WS is never used until they make their own attack.

Spawn of Icarus
31-01-2012, 19:27
Would someone please grab the brb and look up the character section?? it has rules regarding chariots right there. iirc, a character's save has two options - he may use the save of the chariot, or he may use his own armor save if it is better. in combat, if the character is slain, the whole chariot is removed; if the chariot is destroyed, the character continues on foot. the chariot itself may not be KB'd, but the character can be. if this leaves the chariot without any other crew, the chariot is also removed. you may choose to attack the chariot or the character, if there are no other crew, you will still hit against the character's WS because he is the crew. if there is crew beside the character, use the crew's WS when attacking the chariot. use the characters WS when attacking the character. the creature's/steeds WS is never used until they make their own attack.

The quotes i provided on the first post are taken from the characters section.

AMWOOD co
01-02-2012, 00:59
The quotes i provided on the first post are taken from the characters section.

Agreed, and I think Pavisel is either confusing things from the 7th edition or has just misread a few things. Nowhere does it say to use the character's WS when attacking the chariot, nor that the chariot is removed if the character dies, nor the Killing Blow mention (though that is actually true, it isn't in the book), nor any mention whatsoever about what to do with a chariot that has no crew.