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Lebowski
23-01-2012, 02:29
Righty guys.

Have played 3 games so far (against 3 different armies). Skaven, LM, and TK were my opponents.

Faced the Kahlia list, a Hbomb/Slave list, and finally the slann in hoard of temple guard.

My build was a bit varied (trying out the new goodies), but each game was a landslide victory. I used Bloodies and GG in different games while always having a block of ghouls, 2 25 man squads of zombies, Crypt Horrors, vamp combat lords, and low level Necros running around. No i did not spam gimmicky ethereals or res more than one blood knight at a time (didn't really need to).

Point is that each game played was not even close after 2nd turn. Is anyone else experiencing this (either playing with or against them)?

Warnoober
23-01-2012, 02:52
I got abused in my first game using them. The army moving 4 while getting shot at was hellish. I could never heal or cast dance because i just got my spells dispelled. My lord in he GG just got shot to pieces. Brutal.

Olannon
23-01-2012, 02:56
Lots of people struggle with the way VC play. Lots of people haven't played the new VC before so the fact that they don't know what to expect means it's easier for VC.

Personally I believe it's too early to tell, but most likely they're not broken.

kaubin
23-01-2012, 03:08
Righty guys.

Have played 3 games so far (against 3 different armies). Skaven, LM, and TK were my opponents.

Faced the Kahlia list, a Hbomb/Slave list, and finally the slann in hoard of temple guard.

My build was a bit varied (trying out the new goodies), but each game was a landslide victory. I used Bloodies and GG in different games while always having a block of ghouls, 2 25 man squads of zombies, Crypt Horrors, vamp combat lords, and low level Necros running around. No i did not spam gimmicky ethereals or res more than one blood knight at a time (didn't really need to).

Point is that each game played was not even close after 2nd turn. Is anyone else experiencing this (either playing with or against them)?

Gonna go with Nay. I played against them with Orcs, thought it would suck, but even with bad luck it was a pretty close game. Fun too, and I only had a lvl 2 mage.

russellmoo
23-01-2012, 05:46
My initial reaction when looking at the book was that Vampire counts were broken- after giving it some thought they are all around a much better army that can now field several effective builds (rather than one) and I think players are going to struggle to adjust to the idea that it's no longer all about that horde of GG- this is combined with the change that VC are going to bring to the meta, once people adjust things will get tougher for VC. It also depends on what type of army you are playing against- at a glance VC are going to do well against other magic reliant armies- hence you walked all over the Lizzies, and the rats, but my guess is Ogre kingdoms, O&G, Demons, and even possibly Beastmen are going to give VC trouble as these armies excel at racking up combat res, and don't care too much about casting spells-

Try VC against a close combat oriented army and see what you think?

Lebowski
23-01-2012, 06:08
My initial reaction when looking at the book was that Vampire counts were broken- after giving it some thought they are all around a much better army that can now field several effective builds (rather than one) and I think players are going to struggle to adjust to the idea that it's no longer all about that horde of GG- this is combined with the change that VC are going to bring to the meta, once people adjust things will get tougher for VC. It also depends on what type of army you are playing against- at a glance VC are going to do well against other magic reliant armies- hence you walked all over the Lizzies, and the rats, but my guess is Ogre kingdoms, O&G, Demons, and even possibly Beastmen are going to give VC trouble as these armies excel at racking up combat res, and don't care too much about casting spells-

Try VC against a close combat oriented army and see what you think?

valid point. I hope to play OK soon. maybe they will stop the train.

I know it is a bit early for a real understanding, but this is just an initial reaction ;)

bildo
23-01-2012, 06:11
after playing against them i found that bunkers dont work for them, net of amy (lore of light) just slaughters them in a bunker, you want to see every character destroy themselves, have necromancers have to take strength tests every time they want to cast a spell, they fail, they are dead

Mr. Shine
23-01-2012, 06:34
I voted yes, because... well, broken bones maybe.

But otherwise I don't think so.

Morkash
23-01-2012, 06:58
People will acclimate as soon as they get to know the book. It was similar with Ogres, a lot of players were surprised (and crushed) by scouting Maneaters, Hellheart, Mournfang cavalry or single Sabretusks. Now after a few games you roughly know the gimmicks and can react much better to them. I do not think they're broken though I'm anxious to know how often they will be played now.

The Low King
23-01-2012, 07:07
I think people are just unused to them. Once people get a feel of things like what spells are the most dangerous and what units you want to get rid of first then they will probably settle a bit.

I do like the impact they are having on the metagame now, people have to tweak army lists to deal with some of the new stuff.

ihavetoomuchminis
23-01-2012, 07:53
I think people are just unused to them. Once people get a feel of things like what spells are the most dangerous and what units you want to get rid of first then they will probably settle a bit.

I do like the impact they are having on the metagame now, people have to tweak army lists to deal with some of the new stuff.

+1 and a bunch of letters

Frankly
23-01-2012, 14:21
No.

They don't even feel close to being broken. In general they've lost alot of power within the magic phase and picked up alittle strength with price changes and unit selection.

Loosing, lore master, re-castable spells and a magic charge is a proper scaling back of the strongest magic phase in the game. I not even sure theyre on par tier wise with some consistant tournament winning arch type lists in my area like skaven horde and slann/life lists for example.

But time will tell.

dementian
23-01-2012, 15:14
No.

They don't even feel close to being broken. In general they've lost alot of power within the magic phase and picked up alittle strength with price changes and unit selection.

Loosing, lore master, re-castable spells and a magic charge is a proper scaling back of the strongest magic phase in the game. I not even sure theyre on par tier wise with some consistant tournament winning arch type lists in my area like skaven horde and slann/life lists for example.

But time will tell.

Well I don't know if comparing them to older army lists is the best way to gauge their strength. I am more interested in how they compare to the other 8th edition armies.

Marshal Augustine
23-01-2012, 15:25
Vamps are not broken. They have just been brought into line with 8th ed the book is well written and balanced. There are some great choices and combos in there and will still do well in a competitive environment. Not nearly as nasty as they were before but still a force to be reckoned with.

Frankly
23-01-2012, 20:28
Well I don't know if comparing them to older army lists is the best way to gauge their strength. I am more interested in how they compare to the other 8th edition armies.

Except, I was showing in general how they've been balanced especially in the magic and this is the main reason they're not broken. I wasn't interested in how you felt about comparing them to other armies, even though I touched on it, I was more interested in responding to the OP.

Brother Haephestus
23-01-2012, 21:20
I personally think it is WAY too early to start with the "OMG - broken!" statements, though I can see why they're coming up.

First off, it seems people here tend to read the new books out of context, and only looking at the values of the individual pieces. Case in point is the Hexwraiths. Decent unit, but I think it's going to require more finesse than people think to pull off an overrun, and they are not that hard to take out. I see a lot of "best of" and "mathhammer" threads and comments, and overall these comparisons are okay, but it's taken out of context. Another example is the difference between VC Skells and TK Skells - OMG, the VC Skells are cheaper! Of course, they can't all be given WS 5 or 6 from a TK/TP "My will be done", but we don't look at the synergies, we only look at the raw scores. I've always said that every unit in your list is a tool. Sometimes you need a screwdriver, sometimes you need a hammer. A butter knife and a wrench can fulfil both these needs, respectively, but they may not be the best tool at the time. To quote Spock, "Mathhammer is the BEGINNING of wisdom ..." [/soapbox].

Second is the overall newness of the army. VC haven't been played around here, and definitely haven't been played with the recent book! It's what, barely a week since official release? Being able to see them in battle, see the impact of their specials, and then coming up with tactical and build list counters hasn't been doon yet. People are going to need time to adapt. For example, a friend of mine plays Chaos (hey Warrior! <wave>), and when we first started out I was struggling to play against him (this is ************, that is ************), but, after a few games, I've become familiar with Chaos and understand I have options available to me that play to my strengths and his weaknesses. Lately, he's been having a little bit of trouble against me! Experience is a GREAT teacher.

Lebowski
23-01-2012, 23:19
Except, I was showing in general how they've been balanced especially in the magic and this is the main reason they're not broken. I wasn't interested in how you felt about comparing them to other armies, even though I touched on it, I was more interested in responding to the OP.

thanks for that man. I just wanted some opinions. I felt like a bit of a dick playing them seeing as how unstoppable they were for me.
I am sure I will be shut down soon;)

NitrosOkay
24-01-2012, 02:26
Try VC against a close combat oriented army and see what you think?

Had a game against Orcs and Goblins, ethereals managed to hold up 8 river trolls for 4 turns. Destroyed a big Savage Orc horde with my great weapon grave guard and a flank charge with 12 Black Knights. Zombie horde fought Savage Orc Big'unz on Boars with the Warboss and BSB for 2 turns, long enough to turn his flank then hit him with my caster Vampire Lord (master of the black arts worked out really well for me actually, can turn a useless magic phase at a critical time into something). Pretty convincing win.

Overtninja
24-01-2012, 07:19
vamps can be trouble if your opponent approaches the game from the position of 'magic attacks don't matter, they don't do enough to justify their points' or 'magic missiles aren't worth taking because of how big units are these days' with all their ethereal units, but people will figure out that they're actually worth taking and then things will be back to normal. they'll also have to deal with combat vamps since that's an actual option now, as well as a bunch of monsters and having the potential to face off against every unit in the book since everything in the new book has a use in the right army composition, which is going to throw people for a loop.

i've only been playing since 8th first dropped but it seems to me that people were very used to any given army only taking a few certain things and never taking the bulk of what was in a given book, but whenever a new book comes out, it's not only balanced properly with the current core rules systems (and, as more books are updated for 8th, balanced against each other), but also filled with units that offer interesting tactical possibilities and uses, as well as supporting the fluff the books present. this means that after each major release there needs to be a period of time for people to not only update their armies, but for other players to familiarize themselves with what each updated army can do. this probably accounts for the fact that the release schedule is slower than some people would like for their armies, but is ultimately the smart thing for both GW and the playerbase at large.

so, no, they don't appear to be broken, but people will have to get used to what they can do and begin to strategize accordingly. this process will repeat as every army is redone in kind, especially since very army that gets redone seems to get at least one new huge centerpiece model and a handfull of new MI/cav/other neat things, along with whatever rules tweaks. i can't wait to see what kind of stuff they do with dwarves, dark elves, skaven, empire, and the rest of the armies that have not yet had their number called. ;p

LevDaddy
24-01-2012, 17:08
Not broken at all. I think they've been brought down to Earth quite a bit, and at the same time have been given several more viable options and units to field.

The Characters are too expensive, Ethereals are too easy to pick off, and the Magic phase has been nerfed enough to take them from 'broken'. A lot of what VC have can be countered, which brings them in line with 8th, and crumbling from combat is still devastating.

sulla
24-01-2012, 17:36
They look like the best balanced of the 8th edition books in terms of viable different builds. I'm not sure if this means they will be a better book than the other 8th edition ones but it will certainly mean they should have a longer life cycle in terms of players enjoying the army. I know a few players who have gotten fairly jaded with viable builds in TK or O&G, for example, and have dropped them for more flexible lists.

Gaargod
24-01-2012, 17:37
I don't *think* they are/will be. A few things are posing problems for now - especially the super duper lords. A master necromancer can be dealt with in all the normal ways, so that's fine, but I'm genuinely wondering how to kill a tooled out VC lord. Several builds have come up - usually either with 4++ or 5++/nightshroud. If on horsey, problems are more so with the 2+ or 1+. At that stage, considering healing, they're really not very easy to kill any time soon. But with red fury, they can also carve up some significant combat res, making them difficult to ignore. If they're also the main caster, which is likely in games <2400pts, then it's even more important to kill them, as that will basically screw their magic phase and start crumbling.
The only real options I see to kill them is buffed troops, getting lucky with an uber spell/comboing uber+debuff, or another combat lord (which then gives you the problem of taking a lv4 yourself). Seeing as the first 2 options require magic, which is dicey, and the 2nd is somewhat sub-par in a tournament scene, that's really annoying. Tis especially annoying for the Lizardmen with life slann list, as although you may be able to limit their damage, you really have nothing to kill them (TG would take a long time!). Yeah, you might be able to crumble the unit around him, but with bubble invo that's not easy either and would probably take a combo charge. I'm not really complaining, I'm just saying it's an interesting problem.

Otherwise, I can think of ways to deal with everything else.

skirder
24-01-2012, 19:38
having been two of the opponents and watched on vamp kill 16 in a ound of combat (saurus and khalidas archers) i would say that they aren't broken, just have 3 things that need to be figured out. 1 how to kill the lord/keep him out of combat, 2 how to out damage 4 possible invocation bubble (2 vamps and 2 necros or 1 vamp and 3 necros), and 3 how to kill a 2+/4++ vs range. 2+/2++ vs magic Blood knight squad that can eat just about everything i have in cc.

LevDaddy
24-01-2012, 20:46
Solid points - here are some thoughts:

If the Combat Lord happens to cast anything - Hex Scroll. On a lvl 1 or 2, that's going to hurt. Then you move in for the toad squash. Also, since they lost the anti-KB armor, KB will set you free, especially in conjunction with the Other Trickster's Shard.

Blood Knights are frenzied, which definitely helps, so bring those redirectors. Redirecting and then getting in a flank charge with something killy should be enough to crumble them. KB will knock em down without any saves, as well. At least they lost the Blood Drinker.

Armond
24-01-2012, 20:50
Give people time, you won't be having landslide victories forever. Once people see Vampires in their meta, they will ensure they have some means of dealing with them. Kind of like dealing with all the flaming attacks in a lot of armies now. And on the same hand, dealing with regenerating monsters/units using the flaming attacks. Ethereal units, magic users, etc will get their due in time. Just give your meta time to get used to fighting them.

skirder
24-01-2012, 21:08
Solid points - here are some thoughts:

If the Combat Lord happens to cast anything - Hex Scroll. On a lvl 1 or 2, that's going to hurt. Then you move in for the toad squash. Also, since they lost the anti-KB armor, KB will set you free, especially in conjunction with the Other Trickster's Shard.

The combat lords i've faces were either lvl 4, or didn't cast, almost ever




Blood Knights are frenzied, which definitely helps, so bring those redirectors. Redirecting and then getting in a flank charge with something killy should be enough to crumble them. KB will knock em down without any saves, as well. At least they lost the Blood Drinker.

Frenzied isn't auto anymore, they have to take leadership tests. at least that's how we've been playing. They usually have the bsb, and a vamp, so a rerolled ld 10.

list of a few units that would be killy enough to deal with them (if there isn't a combat lord in there):
savage orcs
necro knights
chosen
maybe temple guard
maybe tomb guard
warsphinx
ranked chariot charge (4 d6 s5 hits BEFORE combat? yes please)
feel free to ad :)

Kalandros
24-01-2012, 21:21
The only way to really redirect blood knights somewhat is to flank them with something that will have at least 1 surviving model and that can flee - Frenzied unit aren't forced to charge unless they fail their LD test but they are forced to pursue.

LevDaddy
24-01-2012, 21:24
So if they pass the test and don't charge...what do they do, just stand there? If you're in inch away what can they do? Back up? It's a win-win.

Lord Inquisitor
24-01-2012, 21:35
I think much like the Ogres the VC look nastier now because everything got much better across the board ... but the one single tournament build got beat down hard. Ogres lost Mawseeker spam and the old Rune Maw and cheap(er) Lords. They gained a lot and are nevertheless probably better than they were even counted against the old Gutstar strategy. With VC it seems to be the same way - much got a lot better but the only-GT-caliber build got stamped down hard with the loss of the Crown and the Regen banner.

Overall I think VC look reasonably on-par with the other 8th ed armies. We'll see how it goes but there's nothing at the moment to suggest anything overly good or bad about them.

Mullitron
24-01-2012, 22:14
I agree with the majority of the posts, the new book seems fine. The new book is more balanced, its not all about a few units and magic item/power combos. That being said It is still early days I'am sure in a short while a standard tournament list will be established, where certain units powers and items will be considered a must for a competitive list. I like the fact that a level 4 and combat vampire lord rolled into one actually is being considered viable, its the kind of things we wanted to take as children when we got into the hobby and is rewarding to see It could be a viable option. That being said the vampire is vulnerably to killing blow which supports the classic story of the all powerful evil bad guy who gets reckless and is eventually killed by the 15 point or so special choice with killing blow. The army may not crumble now when the General dies but the army relies on the general to march and it's still a hefty price cost for one so a loss of one is a pretty big issue. I'am sure people will take the new vampire list and do well with it. But so far I haven't seen anything that suggests they will win all their games because of any broken attributes to the list and as far as I'am aware there aren't many posts on this forum complaining about one broken item/rule/unit/etc.

Its a fun and strong list but not broken from what I have seen so far, kudos to gw.

Dooks Dizzo
24-01-2012, 22:27
I've played 2 games at 3000 points against Skaven and High Elves respectively and tabled both of them.

But the end result really isn't what counts. It took all six turns to vanquish my foes and some really tricky manuevering on my part to make it happen. And it was FUN for both of us. I might have won the game but my opponents literally caused over one hundred casualties. And I think in future rematches I am going to have to work much harder for wins.

Definitely not broken.
Definitely lots of fun.

Cassius105
25-01-2012, 11:18
Played them last Wednesday and dont think they are broken at all.

Was a close game with my Dwarves but but I won and tbh I would have won quite comfortable imo if not for being tripped up by things I didnt expect due to it being a new book.

Corvus Corone
25-01-2012, 12:05
I'm not the most veteran of fantasy players, but my reaction to this was pretty much 'just no'.

Compared to their previous might, they've lost some of their more potent strengths (already mentioned above e.g. magical charge) and gained a little more variety and flexibility, but nothing that screams broken. This seems good for the game IMO and, while they may be running (shambling..?) away with a few games at the moment, I'm pretty sure that once people know what to kill and how to kill it their limitations will become just as obvious as those of any other army. I think they fit well with 8th, and could only appear strong next to TKs who weren't so well written (and even then only just).

Caelas
25-01-2012, 21:03
Played a cheesy VC wraith spam list last weekend, killed 38 ghouls in a single round of combat with 4 mournfang. Got flanked by a terrorgheist hiding behind a floating fortress, would have cannoned it off if we weren't playing SOM. Was unprepared for ethereal units and got punished for it, but I don't see the VC as broken, just capable of producing relatively strong lists. Terrorgheists are golden though. Had we been playing regular warhammer I think I would have pulled out a victory, using my ironguts and heavens magic to static-res/magic missile the ethereals away, cannon the terrorgheist, and annihilate the ghouls with the mournfang and stonehorn. Would also like to point out that VC can struggle with big monsters if not deployed properly
.

Ratbeast
26-01-2012, 00:21
Played my first game with vampires and smased a dark elf list by turn 3, only loss my 20 grave gaurd, 2 units of 5 dire wolves, 2 black knights, and a few ghouls and skeletons, he had 2 hydras, units of cold ones and unit of crossbowmen left, which where all about to get smashed... started game with 2 units of 20 zombies, one unit had 50 in by turn 3, and the other had 40 after taking a few shots.. should be interesting to play againt other armies, but i think once the shock and awe of the new release is done, vamps wont be so hard to handle

Doommasters
26-01-2012, 02:45
Played a few and watched a few games with the new VC. They have fantastic internal balance (relative to history) with only a few exceptions, as far as 8th edition goes I think they are just right when you compare them to the other books. Yes TK players will cry becuase the VC seems at first to be better written book, but the power level appears at least to be equal.

I like comparing them to the 8th books because that is what they are designed to compete against. 7th books are on the way out so comparisons to them are rather pointless really.

N.I.B.
26-01-2012, 09:27
No.

They don't even feel close to being broken. In general they've lost alot of power within the magic phase and picked up alittle strength with price changes and unit selection.

Loosing, lore master, re-castable spells and a magic charge is a proper scaling back of the strongest magic phase in the game. I not even sure theyre on par tier wise with some consistant tournament winning arch type lists in my area like skaven horde and slann/life lists for example.

But time will tell.
This. I think that most people who belives the new VC are broken are noobs who never played a good VC general with the old book. http://rankingshq.com/rankings/default.aspx?GameSystemId=2&RegionId=9

ewar
26-01-2012, 09:58
As a long time LM player id be interested to hear how you beat the slann by turn 2?

Seems a bit optimistic to me. Nothing I`ve read of the new vc leads me to think they`ll be either broken or any harder for LM to beat, seeing as we have excellent counters to most things undead.

Rake
26-01-2012, 12:22
Well written book with decent internal balance. It is better written than TK, granted, but not necessarily more powerful. Overall a solid book, and a significant slowdown in the usual GW power-creep standards. Its still there, Orcs<TK<OK<VC but not to a degree that affects competitive play style or army selection. A much better effort than their previous army books. On the other hand this whole order and destruction childlike idiocy has to go. The real game should not be a fluff hostage to the online one... Manfred wants his dignity back...

Frankly
26-01-2012, 14:20
@Ewar: He could be saying that in a 'general' way that he had a very strong table advantage by turn 2.

I've played Undead for about 25 years now, they're my first wargaming love and I was secretly hoping they were broken again, because I wanted my evil pretties to be unstoppable once more muhahahahhaa.

N.I.B.
26-01-2012, 14:40
If you check my link, you can see that VC were #1 in the UK with the previous book. Probably comes as a shock to most posters in this thread.

Harwammer
26-01-2012, 17:14
Rather one particular vc build was number 1. For people not wanting to take that specific uber competative list but sometimes use other entries from the armybook things weren't quite so good.

Lord Inquisitor
26-01-2012, 19:30
Exactly. Those claiming vampires weren't top tier (many seemed to think them bottom tier! :confused:) were pretty much categorically wrong but the thing was there used to be exactly one build that actually worked, with almost no variation. That one build, however, was absolutely top tier material. Just before the new book was released there was a suggestion of a new blood knight deathstar that was gaining ground but that is also dead with the new book.

The book has gotten better overall, but the top build was nerfed pretty hard. Overall I think the top build might well be lower than before but the number of builds should be much more.

Trains_Get_Robbed
26-01-2012, 20:04
V.C aren't broken, save for S.C combinations that are nifty, but aren't really gamebreaking. However, the best tournament lists will be with double Coven Throne -you heard it hear first.

Reiko321
26-01-2012, 22:35
...However, the best tournament lists will be with double Coven Throne -you heard it hear first.

I am intrigued by this statement. Care to elaborate?

Lebowski
27-01-2012, 05:24
haha. this thread is still alive???


Exactly. Those claiming vampires weren't top tier (many seemed to think them bottom tier! :confused:) were pretty much categorically wrong but the thing was there used to be exactly one build that actually worked, with almost no variation. That one build, however, was absolutely top tier material. Just before the new book was released there was a suggestion of a new blood knight deathstar that was gaining ground but that is also dead with the new book.

The book has gotten better overall, but the top build was nerfed pretty hard. Overall I think the top build might well be lower than before but the number of builds should be much more.

the bloodknight star is dead??? hell no. I think its better. Its pure gold. stick in a WK with MR 2 item with flag of Blood Keep. The only thing to watch for is to not let them get too far away from your Lvl 4 for raising purposes.

I think that VC have incredible potential and I hope to figure it out (whatever it is).

Trains_Get_Robbed
27-01-2012, 08:59
I am intrigued by this statement. Care to elaborate?

At first reading the book and rumors causes everyone to overestimate certain capabilities, what seemed nasty on paper might not be so in real gaming. :P Forthright, I knowing this, I set out and played against V.C as; H.E (down 500 points due to a campaign rule) and Bret general (the latter containing some peasant hordes to differ between elite prior played list) which led to the following conclusions: the recurring usefulness of the *Mortis Engine and the down right utility of Dire Wolves.

Yes, Vlad and co may have some -LD abilities that can be tiresome and semi-broken to deal with as can Krell get benefits, as can Isbella be downright dirty -character wise. This being said, through magic or mainly close combat units can easily allocate attacks and finish them off.

At the end of the day however, its not character abilities or super "destructive monsters" like the Terrorgheists that win you games on the circuits, its about having a niche or trick while at the same time being able to cover the needs of the meta; this pertains to all National, Regional and Local levels.

The *Mortis Engine's only downsides are Crumble and being vulnerable to cannons. You can literally form a "Necron-like Apoc Formation" and trangle-up with any meant to be elite units like Ghouls or already elites like G.G -now Deathstars on their own right- leading the way. Ghouls and Guard with a +4/5 Regen save that can only be decreased by killing off T5/6(forgot which) monstrosities is not only downright nasty and also smart. V.C obviously take crumble tests even if their steadfast, hence any combat they lose (even if they have more ranks who cares eventually you will crumble out) is a combat they don't like. With the regen being so easy to acquire and hand out (its range is stupid far, hell you can be a table lengths away and still be affected in the latter turns of games) and with BoEF being the only prevalent way for an opponent to receive Flamming attacks it seems obvious that the stack-able +4/5 (depending on rare allotment) your main bodied close quarters units and even a +6 Regen on things such as Dire Wolves and or Blood/Black knights that are doing rear/flank guard duty is all too good. Realistically, the BoEF can only be in one place at a time, thus as the V.C player, your definitely forcing some tough decision matrices, priority calls that if failed will more often than win you the game. (This strategy in itself is better than the old G.G already in my opinion because there is not auto-target Regen unit with your BoEF unit, or model in the case of the Wight King. What do you take down first now?)

True, the *Mortis Engine can be picked out by cannons -only sometimes though through poor positioning (on tourney boards mind you, not G.W battle boards)- and also has an inherent weaknesses in crumble like aforementioned and "limited range (only if you roll snakes, and only in turn 1) but small arms fire and combat dedication outside of an armies' main close quarters interdiction will do nothing as its A.S (like it needs armor :rolleyes: ) regen, and high T and W keep it from dying long enough for the rest of your list to throw a helping hand in.

Next up is Dire Wolves. The biggest steal in the V.C book. I'm really dumbfounded as to why everyone hasn't auto-included these in their lists? Receiving a free Vanguard before the game with their high M value makes them the nuttiest and fastest moving unit since the Black Coach powered up. Hell, if deployment went according to plans, you can move them up and still be in range of a Vampire to march the very next turn, that is if the enemy isn't already trying to feed you chaff.

By turn one, you can almost do anything: threaten Warmachines, support units, Fast Cav., Small missile interdiction, small-medium sized infantry units (depends how large each unit is), assassinate characters like Wizards, hold up Deathstars and or Casters casting variety by flat just charging them. And as being Undead they don't have the flaw that is a failed combat. The wolves lost? Oh, no biggie 4 pop theres 5 more left, and that 150 unit just killed your Level2 and held up that Greatsword unit from hitting combat until my Mortis Engine* parade arrives with its G.Gstar attendants. Having S4 on the charge is really helpful as well, and is what really makes them tasty to take. Passive, or aggressive whatever the situation calls for, you can achieve it with Dire Wolves; screen, close quarters, etc. . . essentially their V.C's aka: "turn 1 deal with me unit".

Dire Wolves + Dual (larger games triple) Mortis Engine* + G.Gstar +sprinkle what you like = Will/Should Be Tournament Meta. . . you heard it hear first.

Reiko321
27-01-2012, 09:33
So you are talking about the Mortis Engine (rare choice regen giver/ticking timbomb) rather than the coven throne (the d6 + Ld stat test then suffer the chart of bad things in combat.)

If you are talking about the Mortis Engine, then only two will fit into a 2500pt game, and the rule is ambiguous as to whether the regen actually stacks with other mortis engines... I suppose since it is your turn you can declare that one effect goes off before the other, therefore increasing a non-save having unit to a 5+ regen as long as it is in range of both. a FAQ will probably be needed to clarify.

Regardless, the mortis engine isn't too bad and yes it will certainly boost units like GG hordes and ghoul hordes, while just one will make the new crypt horrors pretty awesome.

If you are talking about the hero choice coven thrones, I have been trying to figure how a couple of those would work. With one character devoted to -Ld abilities and the other kitted for combat, you could run the center of your battle line with those and charge paired up with the infantry unit of your choice. Those combo charges will keep your blocks alive and you will have the killing power of the throne + vampire + infantry block to work thru any enemy unit. That combo is expensive though, and you will have hardly any other room left in either of your character slots in 2500.

I do wholeheartedly agree about Dire Wolves. If they are deployed in the center of the field they act as roadblocks since they can be right infront of the enemy on turn 1 or charge if your opponent goes first. If your enemy charges the wolves they will be redirected (thru an overrun) or they will be forced to combat reform after they wipe out the wolves therefore not advancing across the field much. If you deploy the wolves on the flanks you can redirect towards a board edge or threaten the enemy flanks/backfield. Either way it is gravy!

Although, most armies will need at least two blocks of skeletons to cover Blood & Glory scenarios and offer up ranks + steadfast denial to the killy bits of the army.

As an aside: I am unfamiliar with the Necron Apoc triangle... how would that compare as a tactic for WHFB? Would that be putting the Mortis Engines close and running the blocks of troops around them so everything gets the effects?

Trains_Get_Robbed
28-01-2012, 03:21
^^^ Excuse me, haha I did mean Mortis Engine good catch. XD I'm going to change it now. lol Suprised I got them mixed up that badly.

This being said: How on earth is it a ticking time-bomb, and more importantly it says its stacks in the V.C book itself?

I don't play 40k almost at all, however I was referencing along the lines of similar look/style of a moving battleline of nigh impenetrableness that resembles a triangle in formation.

______________________________________Skeleton Bunker____________________________________________ ________________________________________________

______________________________________M.E_________ M.E_______________________________________________ ____________________________________________

______________Hexwraiths/Ghoulhorde/etc. .__Corpse Cart_______ Black Knights___________________________________________ ________________________________

___________________________________________G.Gstar __________________________________________________ ____________________________________________

_________________Dire Wolves___________________________________Dire Wolves____________________________________________ ____________________________

In the 40k Apoc formation, anything within the triangle automatically receives their save, and it can not be taken away. This formation follows the same thought process, however instead of a Monolith or in this case the third Mortis Engine, it includes a freight train in the lead and its better in a sense in that the bubble extends out to the rear and flank guarding units.

As you can see, the list revolves around the M.E and its central-proximity to further support the rest of the list, and in turn is protected by the wall of unbreakableness. All your fast elements essentially tie down the enemies flanking subsidiaries and funnels interdiction whether that be missile or close combat to the middle aka your G.Gstar.

Aforementioned in my prior post; this list puts the undesirable units or enemy components into combat with and or forces enemy tough target priority decisions upon your opponent with Dire Wolves and support units. All along escorting the G.Gstar into combat, where it needs to be.

Another few topics to address:

Blood and Glory: Correct, the list will need to contain some banners, but at 2,500 points you can realistically get away with the above (might not even need banner on Knight unit) by having your Bsb bunker in Skeletons or G.Gstar and having a pure combat-cannon of Vampire in G.Gstar.

This Vampire would be your general and would be kitted out to kill anything and survive anything, his purpose being to generate as much combat rez as possible for the sole purpose of a BoEF unit hitting the G.Gstar taking out off he regen.

(This same tactic was developed for a friend's awesome troll unit, "Daniel the Troll Prince" giant spider ridig goblin with a +2,+6/++2. Saves unit from flamming and LD allows unit to be placed anywhere, but I digress)

With a +2, ++4/++2 save (Dragonbane Gem) and other silly combat stats, the Vampire gains back all the lost combat rez that the unit would lose if a BoEF hit the unit. If you bunker a BsB in here as well, like a Wight King, he can also has the option of doing the same with the Dragonhelm and further safety net the unit.

In doing this, you have essentially niched your list in Blood and Glory down to killing the large G.Gstar which as a V.C general you want in combat anyway. This being said, from experiences, I would have to agree in bunkering a bsb in skeletons and putting a banner on a knight unit just to increase the combat viability of the skeletons and the unlikely destruction of your G.Gstar in a Blood and Glory scenario would be rather helpful.

Redirections/Magic/Artillery: Another tactic to note is the amount of ranged interdiction protection needed in this list. Having a scroll and some access to channeling is obviously helpful to prevent the mind-numbing ability of magic as is the access to having Dire Wolves and zombies (Zombies!!! something I forgot to mention last time) the ability to bring roadblocks can really hamper your opponent. Scrolling a Dwellers/Pit and or stopping Cannon/Stone Thrower early can define the rest of the game and often buy that turn for you to charge and get into combat, again where you want to be.

Reiko321
28-01-2012, 03:56
It takes a wound on the roll of "doubles" for the range, and when it dies everything (friend and foe) within 12 + turn number in inches takes 2d6 wounds.


The question is not whether the mortis engine stacks with other regen saves... the question is whether it stacks with another mortis engine (exact effects.)

I played a game today and I was talking about this exact issue with the people at the LGS. Every mortis engine's effect is random and therefore has to be rolled independently. Following that train of thought, it is not possible for the models to give regen simultaneously. Each one would have to be rolled independently and their effects applied as such. So if the first one bestows regen to a unit, the 2nd mortis engine would boost that unit's new regen save by one.

Unless it is FAQ'd that two "mortis engines" do not stack with each other for whatever reason, I plan on playing that they do.

Trains_Get_Robbed
28-01-2012, 05:19
I understand your concern for a wound on doubles, but is that really cause for ticking time-bomb? Not in my opinion. True, I hadn't even thought of that effect, but regardless in most cases rolling doubles will not be "army destroying" and in any case can just be healed back to normal through the excessive amount of spells that one will cast. Further more the issue you bring up is rather moot point as you answer the conundrum yourself. It says in the book if it has a save it the Mortis Engine increases, trying to apply actions at the same initiative step only works in C.C.

Frankly
28-01-2012, 10:39
Next up is Dire Wolves. The biggest steal in the V.C book. I'm really dumbfounded as to why everyone hasn't auto-included these in their lists? Receiving a free Vanguard before the game with their high M value makes them the nuttiest and fastest moving unit since the Black Coach powered up. Hell, if deployment went according to plans, you can move them up and still be in range of a Vampire to march the very next turn, that is if the enemy isn't already trying to feed you chaff.

By turn one, you can almost do anything: threaten Warmachines, support units, Fast Cav., Small missile interdiction, small-medium sized infantry units (depends how large each unit is), assassinate characters like Wizards, hold up Deathstars and or Casters casting variety by flat just charging them. And as being Undead they don't have the flaw that is a failed combat. The wolves lost? Oh, no biggie 4 pop theres 5 more left, and that 150 unit just killed your Level2 and held up that Greatsword unit from hitting combat until my Mortis Engine* parade arrives with its G.Gstar attendants. Having S4 on the charge is really helpful as well, and is what really makes them tasty to take. Passive, or aggressive whatever the situation calls for, you can achieve it with Dire Wolves; screen, close quarters, etc. . . essentially their V.C's aka: "turn 1 deal with me unit".



Again. They're back to being my favorite unit in the game and will must likely bring me back to palying VC at tournaments. Not because they're a broken unit and totally games breaker, but because they're amazingly fun to use and on the table top open up alot of options to play faster VC lists.

I'm having a few games this weekend trying out 20+ wolf units that'll threaten flanks, while smaller units will fence in other targeted units.

Trains_Get_Robbed
29-01-2012, 05:45
Agreed, their not 'broke' but their one of those items/units that earn your respect; like Great Eagles, Dispell Scrolls etc. . .