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View Full Version : Does anyone else NOT have a problem with Grey Knights?



Blink
27-01-2012, 19:07
I don't want to sound hubristic about it, but I personally have NO problem fighting Grey Knights... both in the interest of fun and competition... And my main army is Tyranid.

I see a LOT of people firing off complaints, constantly bashing Grey Knights and how they are the hard-counter to everything. I just don't see it. I fight AS and AGAINST Purifier spam/Henchmen lists all the time and if there's one thing I'm finding, it's that not only are Grey Knights reasonably beatable, but it's fun playing against them due to their exploits namely their low model count and midfield superiority mean there's a lot of fun to be had planning a few moves in advance to get an upper hand.

Yes, if you plow into Grey Knights head on, you probably won't survive that engagement... But honestly, you're not supposed to. It's not always fun to lose models; that's understandable... however I think that's the wrong mindset to go about this game in general... There are no games you can EVER play without expected to lose something. In Monopoly, you lose money. In Risk, you lose Soldiers. In love, you lose your dignity.

I understand that I'm going to have to lose some units in order to eventually win against Grey Knights, and that doesn't phase me in terms of having fun playing against them.

So I'm making this topic to reach out to other people who also don't hate Grey Knights. Who else doesn't mind playing against them?

IcedCrow
27-01-2012, 19:18
When playing against Grey Knights, you have two options. One, you can play a fun list and get stomped. Two, you can come trying to be competitive in which case you really have to play a certain way / field a certain type of list to have any chance of winning.

That's the problem most people have with Grey Knights as I have read it. If you already play the game that certain way where you can cope with Grey Knights, you won't see the issue.

Dezartfox
27-01-2012, 19:26
I have no problem playing them, and I play Tzeentch Daemons!

NixonAsADaemonPrince
27-01-2012, 19:26
They're only annoying when you're unprepared for them in my opinion, when they first came out I got a little irritated as I got totally blindsided by Draigo Wing which I wasn't fully aware of, but in hindsight that was in part my fault. But now they're fine, all the usual builds are apparent and they're just part of the normal meta.

They're still not as competitive as Guard in my opinion.

Scaryscarymushroom
27-01-2012, 19:35
I've got something against the author of the codex... :shifty: but GK's are fine. Playing against them isn't so bad, honestly. Especially when your opponent doesn't use them for their cheese-factor.

Guns don't kill people; people kill people. :p Same with Grey Knights. Cool players with GKs I'll play against, but WAAC players I won't.

wyvirn
27-01-2012, 19:36
Would you mind going into details about how to go win against Purifiers? I remember a heated debate (read: pity party) specifically on how to beat it with Tyranids. The only thing I remember is AG stealers.

Noobie2k7
27-01-2012, 19:57
AG Stealers are a pretty sure fire way of running through anything if you can get the charge in.

My friend is running GK in our campaign and we all have no problem facing him. He usually runs Draigo-Wing too and i find it fun to play against. Mainly cause Draigo never survives. . . .Ever. I have no problems really playing against any type of list, it's the people i tend to avoid.

ColShaw
27-01-2012, 19:59
Grey Knights don't bother me. Outnumbering them 3 or more to 1 helps.

Noobie2k7
27-01-2012, 20:04
Grey Knights don't bother me. Outnumbering them 3 or more to 1 helps. More than that if it's Draigo-wing.

Spider-pope
27-01-2012, 20:11
The only problem i have with Grey Knights is the changes the latest codex made to the background, to the extent i no longer have a Grey Knight army. But i'm more than happy to play against them.

Captain Collius
27-01-2012, 20:13
idon't mind grey knights players the draigo wing may be strong but lascannons still instakill termies as does melta.

nothing is unbeatable plus its nice for meq to have an army they outnumber

Noobie2k7
27-01-2012, 20:16
I just Miss Logan-Wing being the only real hardcore unusual termie spam army (other than Deathwing but that's always been normal for DA) Draigo been stealing Logans thunder.

Blink
27-01-2012, 20:20
One, you can play a fun list and get stomped.

You're playing a strategy game... a competitive list is not mutually exclusive from a fun list.


Would you mind going into details about how to go win against Purifiers? I remember a heated debate (read: pity party) specifically on how to beat it with Tyranids. The only thing I remember is AG stealers.

Devourer Gaunts... you will be pouring enough shots to shred through them no problem. Screen them to avoid assaults with spawned gaunts from tervigons. Play turtle style and stay close to SitW creatures to mitigate the threat of cleansing flame... After all that, Purifiers are left with force weapons (and we all know just how much gaunts care about that! - See dictionary for definition of "none").

Honestly I don't think Genestealers are the way to go to kill Purifiers. With Adrenal glands you will be going ahead of them, sure, but point for point they will still make your life miserable, and there's always difficult terrain to worry about which tanks your initiative back down to zero.


The only problem i have with Grey Knights is the changes the latest codex made to the background, to the extent i no longer have a Grey Knight army. But i'm more than happy to play against them.

That's how I feel about my Necron. It happens I guess... Ugh.

Chaotic Pumpkin
27-01-2012, 20:36
I like the Grey Knights. Fun Models to begin with and every Codex that gives a crazy lot of options while still remaining orientated is great in my opinion. The fluff remake is good enough, though a little rough around the edges. But, from a full-on-competitive, min-maxing perspective? They're not such a stunning codex. Space Wolves remain the most ridiculous in serious tournaments.

All in all, I think it's a codex that pure Daemon-hunter players deserved after that long a wait, though it could have been done better.

The Death of Reason
27-01-2012, 20:43
I hate them.

I miss my storm troopers - or being forced to take Coteaz to field them.

I hate that a brother captain is so inferior to a grand master.

I loathe the spam characters. Especially Draigo for building death stars.

I hate that DCAs became an 'ordinairy' infantry unit.

I hate how the force weapons wound up on everything, its just no fun seeing a 'nid players favorite toys get zapped on routine by a common trooper.

...I do like my dreadknight though, and its great fun playing the army, just not the Inquisitional mishmash, I'd hoped for :)

enygma7
27-01-2012, 20:48
I've only played vs grey knights once (with my dark angels) and found the game to be fun. My opponent had a balanced, non-cheesy list and although he had far more fancy toys and just generally had far better units all round I had more melta weapons. And as it turns out, in a mech marines vs. mech marines game the side that falls out of its transports first loses :) I find some of the grey knights lists being fielded fairly repulsive (like draigo wing), but that has more to say about my views on the use of competetive netlists than grey knights. I'd equally have a problem playing a nob warbiker army or other spammed army. It does seem that grey knight players tend towards power lists though, maybe because competetive tourni types are more likely to go for them.

However, I do have a problem with grey knights and avoid playing them. The reason for this is actually due to background rather than in game power. All our games are part of a narrative campaign that has been running more than a decade. Grey Knights are specialised daemon hunters and there are only 1000 of them in the galaxy making them an extremely limited and valuable asset. I played mostly xenos armies, why would they fight me? I know the codex tries to give justifications and examples, but it just doesn't ring true with me. Since the grey knights players in my FLGS also have other armies I tend to prefer playing against those.

The Death of Reason
27-01-2012, 20:59
Well, the players choice of army, available opponents and fluff has always been at odds. Why would Ultramarines fight Space Wolves? Why would the imperial guard dare challenge the Blood Angels? Why would two seer councils suddenly decide to have a bloody jet bike tourney - in the ruins of an Imperial city :p

Quite often you need to justify the battles as the results of corrupted intel - or just blame Ward ;)

xxRavenxx
28-01-2012, 01:03
My issue with them is simple: I have never played such unfun games in my life.

I have never EVER played another game of 40k nor fantasy where I did not kill a single model before being tabled. GK have done this to me.

I would be happy to never play against them again. (And with any luck, I won't).

igwarlord
28-01-2012, 03:47
so far my SoB army has not lost to them yet
they are 9-0 versus them in 4 different tournys now against 5 different players
I don't know what the fuss is all about
the only army I have that has lost to them was my guard when I tried to do a CC list for some reason
but that was a fun game and my FLGS

igwarlord
28-01-2012, 03:53
Well, the players choice of army, available opponents and fluff has always been at odds. Why would Ultramarines fight Space Wolves? Why would the imperial guard dare challenge the Blood Angels? Why would two seer councils suddenly decide to have a bloody jet bike tourney - in the ruins of an Imperial city :p

Quite often you need to justify the battles as the results of corrupted intel - or just blame Ward ;)

the ultra marines fought the SW in a bloody tourny to prove which army was better.
The inquisition had declared that particular guard regiment traitors and had to wipe it out
The jet bike tourny was a battle over resources the craft world needs gas too ya know

see you can justify any battle just have to think about it a little

Noobie2k7
28-01-2012, 04:19
Ok, my only real problem with GK's is that the fluff in the codex contradicts the rules in the same codex, with regards to purifiers and paladins. The purifiers are supposed to be a tiny group within the chapter, only like 50 of them are ever there at a time, but Crowe allows you to take them as troops and elites so you can have technically 90 of them O_o there isn;t even 90 purifiers in the entire chapter.

ss_cherubael
28-01-2012, 04:39
Get over it, cannot stand the bitching that goes on when a new army comes out, everyone screams broken. How about stop looking at the opponents army as the problem and look at your selves and how you play. Personally I will play against anything, but then I see this as fun and not life and death like .some of you...

Noobie2k7
28-01-2012, 04:52
As i've said, i have no problem playing against GK's for me to scream broken would only draw attention to my Broken stuff :P I play BA and las/plas spam at that lol, would be silly of me to scream broken at anything. I mean i don;t use las/plas razor spam against anything but i certainly will if i see my opponent has bought a bunch of purifiers or paladins to the table.

Inquisitor Kallus
28-01-2012, 05:17
As i've said, i have no problem playing against GK's for me to scream broken would only draw attention to my Broken stuff :P I play BA and las/plas spam at that lol, would be silly of me to scream broken at anything. I mean i don;t use las/plas razor spam against anything but i certainly will if i see my opponent has bought a bunch of purifiers or paladins to the table.

So you tailor your list when you see what your opponent has in his army? Thats pretty lame. I havent played a game in a while but have looked through the codex and indeed heard what people have said about them. I wouldnt mind playing them with Daemons, but I prefer fun scenario/story based games.

Hicks
28-01-2012, 05:50
The only problem i have with Grey Knights is the changes the latest codex made to the background, to the extent i no longer have a Grey Knight army. But i'm more than happy to play against them.

Same here, I sold my GKs in total disgust.

I don't really like how over the top they are on the table either, but I'm not really a WAAC player and I kinda loved how they used to play, even though they were clearly overpriced. I also hold a personal grudge against armies that seem custom tailored to pulverise nids, but that's also mostly the nid's codex fault.

Noobie2k7
28-01-2012, 05:50
So you tailor your list when you see what your opponent has in his army? Thats pretty lame. I havent played a game in a while but have looked through the codex and indeed heard what people have said about them. I wouldnt mind playing them with Daemons, but I prefer fun scenario/story based games. Same here. I tend to only play with friends these days or the odd person at my LGS. The only reason i even have my cheesey list is cause of my friend who's like my rival and we're constantly trying to out cheese eachother with our lists. But my campaign army is pretty damn uncompetitive, like food slogging Furioso librarian (have him now cause my old librarian kinda got nailed by a demolisher round and i rolled my 6 to have him saved and given the naught treatment). Then again all our armies are kinda random seeing as we made up a bunch of stuff :P

The Death of Reason
28-01-2012, 08:34
the ultra marines fought the SW in a bloody tourny to prove which army was better.
The inquisition had declared that particular guard regiment traitors and had to wipe it out
The jet bike tourny was a battle over resources the craft world needs gas too ya know

see you can justify any battle just have to think about it a little

No disrespect towards you mate, but your justifications are the lamest excuses I've ever heard. Its war, not a hockey tournament. But if this is what satisfies you, then fine by me. I have higher standards, and when they can't be met, I'm happy to suspend disbelief, enjoy the game as a game and marvel at nice models :)

Noobie2k7
28-01-2012, 08:40
No disrespect towards you mate, but your justifications are the lamest excuses I've ever heard. Its war, not a hockey tournament. But if this is what satisfies you, then fine by me. I have higher standards, and when they can't be met, I'm happy to suspend disbelief, enjoy the game as a game and marvel at nice models :) haha, i'm the same. I tend to enjoy the fluff and background too much though and tend to wonder about these things, like why are those cadians attacking those space wolves? Or why is it that more than all the purifiers in existence have turned up to fight off some apparently decent enough looking blood angels? But i also tend to just enjoy the game for what it is. No getting away with stuff like that in our campaign group though :P

KronusDaSneaky
28-01-2012, 11:08
No problem personally but then I have been playing them for years. I do appreciate why others do though, since GK have so many hard cost effective counters to a lot of armies. I find your experiences really depend on how good the player is because GK are really a finesse army like DE and in seasoned hands as evil as everyone really thinks. I do not use mine much or in a very different form because I fall into the aforementioned category and can table an opponent in 4 turns with abundant ease usually. At my own club we have 2 other part time GK players both of whom are fun to fight because like 90% of players they make mistakes which you can capitalise upon giving you an opportunity to take them down a peg. My own GK if built remotely competitively can be much less so since invariably they will be positioned and utilised in a manner that most benefits me and hinders my opponent.

vcassano
28-01-2012, 11:22
No problem personally but then I have been playing them for years. I do appreciate why others do though, since GK have so many hard cost effective counters to a lot of armies. I find your experiences really depend on how good the player is because GK are really a finesse army like DE and in seasoned hands as evil as everyone really thinks. I do not use mine much or in a very different form because I fall into the aforementioned category and can table an opponent in 4 turns with abundant ease usually. At my own club we have 2 other part time GK players both of whom are fun to fight because like 90% of players they make mistakes which you can capitalise upon giving you an opportunity to take them down a peg. My own GK if built remotely competitively can be much less so since invariably they will be positioned and utilised in a manner that most benefits me and hinders my opponent.

With all due respect, as a seasoned Daemonhunters player, but Grey Knights are anything but a finesse army. They have many abilities to narrow odds - more shots, force weapons, fortitude, various psychic abilities - in addition to marine statlines. That is not to say they are necessarily a simple army, but that they are quite easy to pick up and play.

As for my own opinion, I think it is a shame that they narrowed the Inquisitorial taskforce armies to being special-character exclusive, but I do appreciate that the book supports a wide variety of builds. It is a shame that they have gained such a reputation, because it makes me feel guilty for playing an army that has been my only playable 40k force for the last five years (and the new models/plastics are fantastic!).

Radium
28-01-2012, 11:36
I've never lost to the new codex, and I've played plenty of games against them, even in the hands of very good players. That's just anecdotal evidence and doesn't prove anything, I know that.

However, I do seriously detest the codex for breaking lots of core rules without any need for it do so and the horrible, HORRIBLE fluff.

orkmiester
28-01-2012, 11:42
No problem personally but then I have been playing them for years. I do appreciate why others do though, since GK have so many hard cost effective counters to a lot of armies. I find your experiences really depend on how good the player is because GK are really a finesse army like DE and in seasoned hands as evil as everyone really thinks. I do not use mine much or in a very different form because I fall into the aforementioned category and can table an opponent in 4 turns with abundant ease usually. At my own club we have 2 other part time GK players both of whom are fun to fight because like 90% of players they make mistakes which you can capitalise upon giving you an opportunity to take them down a peg. My own GK if built remotely competitively can be much less so since invariably they will be positioned and utilised in a manner that most benefits me and hinders my opponent.

Well... to start with i do have GK but i like using my twin stormravens, a finesse army you may say but i like mucking around with folks when it comes to those deepstrikes...:D

However, the main 'quibble' is the rifleman dreads and how to the 'inexperienced' they can seem to be rather 'OTT'- there is no doubting the fact that in the current environment where everyone is in transports they are rather nasty. After a playing a game agaisnt 3 of the things with my new chaos marines (and winning...) i can begin to see the inherent issue behind some GK units. Don't get me wrong when used by a competent player then obviously fireworks will ensue but in this case said GK player is a newbie, and the more experienced players at my club are a little miffed to say the least. Though he hasn't had to face our ig player yet:eyebrows:

Though all in all with the dreads it comes down to who goes first, with my DE i suspect that i'll attempt to shoot the hell out of the things with lances. Saying that the things died when my chaos got close:evilgrin: and i reckon he was taken aback by the aggression somewhat.

But that game got the strategy brain on the go;) and i suspect that his army wouldn't stand up to my twin raven list turning up (GK playing GK well well...:rolleyes:)

just my humble opinion:angel:

Axel
28-01-2012, 11:48
Sorry, but NO to the original poster. I DO have a problem with them. Mainly that in the hands of a competetive player they are broken to the point that games are no longer fun. And if games are no fun, I play something else.

Miredorf
28-01-2012, 12:02
In love, you lose your dignity.

Good one =)

Bunnahabhain
28-01-2012, 12:16
I have a problem with them.

Mat Ward has turned a characterful minor faction, into a huge and unremitting cheese-fest of bad writing and worse balance.

I can beat them, but I'm an experienced Guard player. I have a good choice of decent units. Even then, if they decide to bring an even half way competitive list, I need a very strong build, unless I want to have a really steep, uphill battle, just like facing.. just about anybody bar daemon hunters when using the old Guard codex.

They're less balanced than Guard, Space wolves and Blood angels.

Vipoid
28-01-2012, 12:16
If I'm using Tyranids, then I really hate playing GK. I just can't find anything fun in the games, and I don't want to start having to tailor my entire army around 1 opponent - just for a decent chance at winning.


If I'm playing Necrons, then I don't mind GK as much. It's still a little annoying that my guys are apparently made solely for mid-range shooting, but have nothing comparable to GK psybolt-storm bolters or psycannons, even though GK can do both mid-range shooting and assault.

Still, I can accept that. I can even accept the fact that every GK character has a 4+ (or better) invulnerable save, whereas my special character overlords are allowed to be good in combat or to have an invulnerable save (but never both). I can accept the fact that my C'tan shard's invulnerable save is now wargear-derived, and therefore subject to being removed by the Vindicare Assassin's shield-breaker round.

I can accept these because it actually feels like I have an decent chance of winning against GK, whereas trying to win with Tyranids feels like an uphill-battle against an avalanche.

KronusDaSneaky
28-01-2012, 12:19
The reason I think of GK as a Finesse army is down to the complications involved in list building and understanding how GK units synergise especially well if used properly. Unlike SW and indeed SM generally GK require more appreciation to field in their optimum for. This is because GK, more then any other SM army, have a large number of units that don't just support each other but have game changing effects upon one another. They interact in a plethora of different ways which is why you need practise to appreciate the intracies of the list. Its very easy for new players to spend points where they are not need or fail to appreciate how different units affect one another leading a okay if unstructured mess of a force.

Where the codex differs from classic finesse forces is that it does not punish people for doing so in the same way DE does. Old DH were very expensive and any mistake hurt, they were my go to challenging army where every model matter and every loss brought me that much closer to defeat. Not even old DE where as difficult to use effectively. Problem is that in many important areas new grey knights are too cheap and so let mistakes off the hook. Rather then been good when well built and poor when not as they should have been they have become good when badly built and overpowered when well built.

What I am trying to say is that Grey Knights are like DE+, having all the advantages of high damage output and strong synergy that come with finesse armies and non of the weakness thanks to good toughness, cheap points cost and fortitude to protect their vehicles. This means that a skilled GK player, who appreciates the variety of interactions available and takes a half decent list can be akin to fighting a brick wall. They will not simple have counters to individual parts of your force, but very strong counters against pretty much all of it. They will sit in the middle ground, keeping appropriate distances and when you try to take the initiative they will screw you time and time again. If I take a competitive GK list against any of my gaming group they will be lucky to see the 4th turn and it almost invariably comes a case that objectives/kill points don't matter as the opponent will have been tabled. That's fun for no one which is why my list are always quirky.

LonelyPath
28-01-2012, 12:38
Would you mind going into details about how to go win against Purifiers? I remember a heated debate (read: pity party) specifically on how to beat it with Tyranids. The only thing I remember is AG stealers.

AG Stealers do help, I use thm against Purifier spam, but even then Cleansing Flame hurts before you get to do anything, but it does even things up a little :)

And yes, I see nothing wrong with the GK list, it allows for great variety in models and play style.

khaosmarines
28-01-2012, 12:48
first off i don't hate them but i do see a lot of problems...

tho first off i would like to point out the nid thing is (in a lot of ways) more of a problem with the nid codex. Not with grey knights. Nids should have eternal warrior in synapse... blah blah blah but that's a whole other debate.

The main thing i hate about grey knights as an army is their built in FREE advantage against daemons. every special rule that says if your a daemon... Thats just BS

I mean how unfair is it that this army has a free advantage against another army. Daemons are immune to instant death... unless its a grey knight. i know the fluff but that is not a justification for it. A daemons player is ALWAYS going to have a disadvantage when compared to all the other races no matter how the codexs change so long as the grey knights have these abilities. this puts a Daemons player on the back foot from turn one. I know they seem better vs nid and all that but...

these rules cannot exist within a balanced game unless, say grey knights had a massive inbuilt disadvantage to daemons and needed the boost to make them competitive.

I know this is not currently such a huge issue, but i think the fundamental design of these rules are unfair. Daemons have a disadvantage to Greyknights no matter the lists no matter their codex, no matter what.

Am i the only one who thinks this is unfair???

Also i dislike like the fat cheese pizza that is their new rules are general (although i like cheese pizza). I dislike that the codex is unbalanced, i can still have a fun game against them as winning is the defining point of my enjoyment but i would prefer equality, thus i don't much like grey knights.

Oh and i hate Draigo.....

Chaotic Conan
28-01-2012, 13:30
can grey knights ID demons?

Vipoid
28-01-2012, 13:57
And yes, I see nothing wrong with the GK list, it allows for great variety in models and play style.

I'm not trying to be offensive here, but where is the variety in a GK army?

I ask because I only ever see 3 models - GKs, henchmen and assassins.

With regard to GK, I just don't see the variety. What weapons to the HQs have? Nemesis Force weapons and storm bolters. Well, fair enough, they're HQs after all. They're entitled to force weapons, and storm bolters let them offer some decent fire-support.

Now, what about the basic troops, what weapons do they have? Nemesis Force weapons and storm bolters. Seems a bit odd to me that the troops get the same weapons as the commanders of the army, but I suppose these things happen. Perhaps the Quartermaster just made an honest mistake when he distributed their gear.

Well then, what about the terminators, they must have something different, right? Nemesis Force weapons and storm bolters, how original.

And then we get to the purifiers. Perhaps these elite soldiers will have some special weapons, to highlight the fact that they are more incorruptable than other GKs. So, what do they have? Nemesis Force weapons... and storm bolters... thrilling

Well, what about paladns. They have a statline that matches many HQ choices, obviously Draigo's elites will have some truely remarkable weapns. So, what have they got? Nemesis Force weapons and storm bolters. Steady on, Ward - you don't want to blow our minds with too much originality.

Well, finally, let's examine the interceptor squads. What weapons do these teleportation-masters have at their disposal? Well, just to mix things up, they're all armed with Nemesis Force weapons and storm bolters.


Now, I understand that GK players probably see a wealth of options and units at their disposal. However, as a regular opponent of GK, let me tell you that I don't. All I see are the same dull, silver blokes wielding the same, dull, unfun weapons.

Sami
28-01-2012, 13:57
Other the Psyflemen (which are just stupid), I've no personal issues playing against the GK codex, but then I play DE who excel at ripping them to shreds. The book itself is an abomination, filled with bad writing, poor fluff and horrific internal balance and broken units/powers, but thankfully I play one of the few armies that can deal with it (except for the 6x Psyfleman spam where I am guaranteed to pretty much auto-lose against).

I have been hoping that tourney organisers would start mirroring fantasy where they actually restrict/ban certain units in their tourneys, as the fantasy crowd have cottoned on to the fact that GW are not out to make a balanced game, and if you want a level playing field then you will need to level it yourself. Sadly, 40K tourneys still seem to be stuck with the "GW's word is law" mindset, and IMO the tourney scene suffers for it.

The Death of Reason
28-01-2012, 15:21
@Vipoid

Totally agree on the lack of variety. Basically the difference in GK units is the number of psycannons allowed - this is made even worse by the fact that most tourney lists either spam purifiers or paladins.

But then again most tourney lists, are just spamming certain units. And marines in particular are quite similar looking.

You can get a decent variety modelwise in the army, but this does require using Coteaz - and of course not resorting to spamming cloned units :p

Gertjan
28-01-2012, 15:37
I do not have alot of problems with GK, actually, only one and that is Psy bolt ammo (or maybe the point costs/availability as it is at the moment, a ok idea that could not have been executed any worse) ok, and maybe the stupendous grenade stuff they have aswell. Other than that I do not mind the codex at all. We have players around here who have fun GK lists that I do not mind playing against.

BrotherCaptainS
29-01-2012, 07:04
I have got to say I have absolutely no problem with Grey Knights. Both as a player of them and as an opponent playing against them. I feel they really brought out the spirit of what this army is supposed to be. Small but very elite and very nasty. Now I have been playing knights since the first daemonhunter book came out and the power increase is dramatic but is so fitting. However what people fail to realise is the small model count and inability to have reliable mobility and enough firepower. They still lack in major anti-tank i.e. melta but have enough to get by. I run a 29 model 1850 army and no its not draigo wing. while he is included there are only 6 paladins and no other termies, an 8 man ss w/halberds and a 10 ss with swords and psycannons. Then there is a little more flavor but nothing overly mean, but this serves me well enough.

Now on the other side, I have no problem playing against them with either my ig or my sw. Latest game with ig was a 4 turn tabling and last one with wolvea was a draw on take the center. Mind you i had only one long fang squad, also i run major twc so i had to run right into the teeth of said knights to be effective. With ig i'd say that gk do not like pie plates or leman russ variants, and plasma death squads well lets just say they are hot. lol

Overall i think it is a great dex and there really are no problems with it, just players whom fail to adapt and then said codex is then broken. Yeah that is my 4 cents.

Sami
29-01-2012, 12:10
29 models at 1850? No wonder people like playing against you :). GK should be an elite small model count army, but it is plenty possible to spam spam spam with them.

As for lack of ranged AT, Dreadnoughts and Razorbacks do that nicely, as do Rending psycannons. The first two also negate the lack of ranged firepower on the GK models themselves.

Vipoid
29-01-2012, 12:12
Overall i think it is a great dex and there really are no problems with it, just players whom fail to adapt and then said codex is then broken. Yeah that is my 4 cents.

By 'fail to adapt' do you mean that everyone who complains about GK should immediatly go out and buy a top-tier army to fight them with?

Bunnahabhain
29-01-2012, 12:22
By 'fail to adapt' do you mean that everyone who complains about GK should immediatly go out and buy a top-tier army to fight them with?

And those with top tier armies can only bring their power builds.

I've got a platoon of converted rough riders. People like seeing them, as they're different, both in look and game play. If I suspect I'm going to be facing mainly competitive grey knight lists, guess what, they go on the shelf, and the 'boring, everybody uses them ' valkyries and vendettas come out for fast attack.

Leo
29-01-2012, 15:03
And those with top tier armies can only bring their power builds.

I've got a platoon of converted rough riders. People like seeing them, as they're different, both in look and game play. If I suspect I'm going to be facing mainly competitive grey knight lists, guess what, they go on the shelf, and the 'boring, everybody uses them ' valkyries and vendettas come out for fast attack.

So, to defeat a competitive Grey Knight army you need a competitive army yourself?
How totally unacceptable.


WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRDDDD !!!!!!!!!!




Funny enough with the old Demonhunters going up against pretty much anything was an uphill battle at best and an exercise in frustration at worst.
But for some reason all those Chaos and 'Guard players didn't complain much. It's only now that you come crawling out of the woodwork.

Vipoid
29-01-2012, 15:50
So, to defeat a competitive Grey Knight army you need a competitive army yourself?
How totally unacceptable.

Out of interest, what units in the GK codex would you consider 'fun'?

Bunnahabhain
29-01-2012, 16:13
So, to defeat a competitive Grey Knight army you need a competitive army yourself?
How totally unacceptable.
No, to defeat anything but the very weakest Grey knight armies, you need to bring a fairly competitive army- assuming roughly equal levels of player skill. It is my considered opinion the Grey knight average builds are simply better than Guard, space wolf or BA average builds, and the GK strongest builds are better than others strongest builds.



Funny enough with the old Demonhunters going up against pretty much anything was an uphill battle at best and an exercise in frustration at worst.
But for some reason all those Chaos and 'Guard players didn't complain much. It's only now that you come crawling out of the woodwork.

You appear to be mixing up your time periods rather. Yes, old daemonhunters were uncompetitive, but the current chaos book isn't exactly a powerhouse, nor has it been since the start of 5th ed. Or are you complaining about the previous chaos book?
As for Guard, the current book is powerful, but no more so than the Space wolves or Blood angels ones. The old one, however, was jostling with daemon-hunters for the position of weakest codex going. For those of us who started Guard in 4th ed or before, being told we're coming crawling out of the woodwork now is a totally needless insult. Thanks.

Noobie2k7
29-01-2012, 17:33
I've got a platoon of converted rough riders. People like seeing them, as they're different, both in look and game play. If I suspect I'm going to be facing mainly competitive grey knight lists, guess what, they go on the shelf, and the 'boring, everybody uses them ' valkyries and vendettas come out for fast attack.
I feel the same way with my BA. I love using my Preds and dreadnought librarian but as soon as i see my opponent has brought along a decent GK list i put my fav models away and bring out the razorbacks and take the jump packs off my ASM squads. Given i'd do the same thing if you put your vendettas on the table :P

It's sad how you need to almost force yourself to use your best build just so you have a chance of winning a game against GK builds.


Out of interest, what units in the GK codex would you consider 'fun'? I think the Dreadknights are pretty fun models but actually i think that's it.

Axel
29-01-2012, 17:45
The reason I think of GK as a Finesse army ...

FINESSE?
Sorry, but handling a sabre need some finesse, too. Fighting the sabe against someone armed with a knife, however, does not take finesse.
Anybody using Grey Knights with half a brain and the will to win will play with the odds weighted to his side. SOME armies are good at fighting them, but in the GW game of paper, scissor, stone the GK are both scissor and stone.




I have got to say I have absolutely no problem with Grey Knights.
...
Overall i think it is a great dex and there really are no problems with it, just players whom fail to adapt and then said codex is then broken. Yeah that is my 4 cents.

I think if you see no problem with them but just with players who "fail to adapt" the perceptive problem lies between you ears, not with those players who play it out against competetive and competent GK players.

Blink
29-01-2012, 17:57
This is a strategy game; all of your complaints that GK aren't fun to play against without bringing a strong force sound a tad silly since there isn't much of a reason why you SHOULDN'T play a strong force, or at least play with sound strategy in mind.


I feel the same way with my BA. I love using my Preds and dreadnought librarian but as soon as i see my opponent has brought along a decent GK list i put my fav models away and bring out the razorbacks and take the jump packs off my ASM squads. Given i'd do the same thing if you put your vendettas on the table :P

It's sad how you need to almost force yourself to use your best build just so you have a chance of winning a game against GK builds.

You can win even with bringing Preds and Dread-Libbys. It's not as bad as you think it is. Just make sure you're willing to trade armies to get their numbers down. Here's the thing about GK; they have an EXTREMELY weak late game. Early on, they will be kicking your ass down the curb... but late game when they only have a few models left, they tend to fall apart.

Try playing for the late game next time you fight them. With their mediocre ranges and elite force, send half your army you expect to die, but at least cause some damage to decrease their numbers. By that time, the rest of your army you've played conservative with should have a better chance at standing up to the even smaller force. With some luck, you should have taken out some Psycannons and Daemon Hammers on squads and tanked some Psyfleman dreads. You can do it.

Leo
29-01-2012, 18:20
No, to defeat anything but the very weakest Grey knight armies, you need to bring a fairly competitive army- assuming roughly equal levels of player skill. It is my considered opinion the Grey knight average builds are simply better than Guard, space wolf or BA average builds, and the GK strongest builds are better than others strongest builds.

Well, which Codex is more ridiculous is quite debatable. Your opinion, as is custom with 'Guard and Chaos players, is that when you win games, it's the players doing, but when you lose them, it's the massive imbalance of the game as a whole. Nothing new here, so moving on.



You appear to be mixing up your time periods rather. Yes, old daemonhunters were uncompetitive, but the current chaos book isn't exactly a powerhouse, nor has it been since the start of 5th ed. Or are you complaining about the previous chaos book?
As for Guard, the current book is powerful, but no more so than the Space wolves or Blood angels ones. The old one, however, was jostling with daemon-hunters for the position of weakest codex going. For those of us who started Guard in 4th ed or before, being told we're coming crawling out of the woodwork now is a totally needless insult. Thanks.

Yes I am talking about the older Chaos Codex which was around for quite a while when I started my DH army and no, it's no insult to you. Your Codex used to be weaker, than it is now.
Well, duh. So was mine. You expect a medal or something?
I started with the Demonhunters Codex and as a consequence am sitting on forty Inquisitorial Stormtroopers plus transports that will be useless for some time.
But somehow I'm now supposed to apologize to some whiny Warseers because my army is no longer wiped out by turn three. So sorry, guys. Maybe with the next Codex proper balance is restored.




Out of interest, what units in the GK codex would you consider 'fun'?
I like them all, actually. Why? Something wrong with any of them?

KronusDaSneaky
29-01-2012, 18:24
It is my considered opinion the Grey knight average builds are simply better than Guard, space wolf or BA average builds, and the GK strongest builds are better than others strongest builds..

IG have the best WAAC lists period. GK admittedly have better average armies as they have no obvious weakness but when push comes to shove and you want to make the most horrific list possible, its the IG who remain in the fore. SW and other marine players simply have more trouble with GK then IG usually which has led to the misconceived opinion that their the top dog. Very good but IG lists that spam vendattas, manticores, vets in chimeras and hydras have no equal.

Scammel
29-01-2012, 19:45
But somehow I'm now supposed to apologize to some whiny Warseers because my army is no longer wiped out by turn three. So sorry, guys. Maybe with the next Codex proper balance is restored.



Sheesh, aggressive much? The Grey Knight codex is unbalanced compared to most armies in the game right now, and it's not justified just bcause they were very weak previously. Equally, no-one is blaming you, or any other Grey Knight players for it, as long as you don't use that previous weakness as a justification when the other player has their enjoyment drained by a bad game.

Balragore
29-01-2012, 19:59
I have no problem with GK because it's another army and therefore another person in the hobby to play with.

duffybear1988
29-01-2012, 20:06
I have played 10 games against them with space wolves, generic marines, the tyrants legion, sisters of battle and imperial guard at 1500 points. So far I have won 9 games and drawn 1... Oh and I don't use cheesy lists, but some of the grey knights players certainly did!

Don't really see what people find so scary about them?

igwarlord
29-01-2012, 20:07
No disrespect towards you mate, but your justifications are the lamest excuses I've ever heard. Its war, not a hockey tournament. But if this is what satisfies you, then fine by me. I have higher standards, and when they can't be met, I'm happy to suspend disbelief, enjoy the game as a game and marvel at nice models :)

Higher standards???
sorry but you must never have served in any type of military
war games happen all the time
A lot more often than war does
and as far as my "lame" excuses go you must know jack diddly about the fluff.
planets get razed due to the mer hint of chaos on a planet or whole regiments wiped out at the thought of gene stealer infestation in the rank and file
each craft world is pretty autominous and could really care less about the rest so damn straight they would fight over anything they needed to survive

sounds to me more like you just hated be called unimaginative

Gaargod
29-01-2012, 20:10
can grey knights ID demons?

Daemonbane Hammer/other to the face says 'hell yeah'. Specifically ignores Daemonic Eternal Warrior. This is oddly fine - force weapons are meant to be great versus daemons, it's the whole point. It's just weird that they don't work against daemons, but are fine against loads of other stuff (nids, for example).


In other news, GK do have a habit of rolling over MEQ armies. Or more accurately, think of it this way: You go a tournament, where you play the following armies:

> IG Mech spam (vendettas, chimeras+vets, hydras, maybe a manticore/medusa or 2, etc)
> DE dark lance + avoidance game (so 25+ lance weapons, and over 10 vehicles with flickerfield, couple of wych squads to tie stuff up)
> SW 'balanced' force of mech grey hunters, long fangs and some thunderwolves, with a few rune priests for flavour
> BA assault focused army
> GK Draigowing


Now, aside from the horror at this particular list (someone up there hates you), explain how a Nid army is meant to fight all those different types, with a decent chance of winning. Assume all the lists, including your own, are WAAC and the players are of equal skill and average luck. That's just off the top of my head of course, not really thinking about the new Necron builds, or GK purifier spam, Ork greentide or IG gunlines, etc.

Answer? Screw you, you can't. Indeed, I can't offhand think of an army with great odds of winning against that variety. Sure, anti-Mech will be nice - or would be, until one of them instead was a horde army. GK purifier spam might be able, with a bit of luck, to do it.


And this is why GK are annoying for MEQ armies. Between the different builds offered by GK, IG and DE, you can't easily deal with all of them, and it just so happens GK troll MEQ armies really well (whilst in return, hating DE).

igwarlord
29-01-2012, 20:12
I have played 10 games against them with space wolves, generic marines, the tyrants legion, sisters of battle and imperial guard at 1500 points. So far I have won 9 games and drawn 1... Oh and I don't use cheesy lists, but some of the grey knights players certainly did!

Don't really see what people find so scary about them?

I got to agree mate! :) like i posted I've beaten them 9 times with sisters and they were using everything under the sun
I think the problem all these people are having is that GK are a good army that requires you to have to play smart. you can't rush headlong at Gk's you got to pick and choose and double team units and make sure you get more fire on 1 unit while limiting what can hit yo back. they are not a hard or cheesy army they just require tactics.

Vipoid
29-01-2012, 20:13
I like them all, actually. Why? Something wrong with any of them?

That wasn't what I asked.

Let me put it another way: Many armies have at least some units and/or wargear that aren't as competative as other options, but that are nevertheless fun to use. I was wondering if there was anything in the GK codex that you'd put into this category?

Blink
29-01-2012, 20:38
Let me put it another way: Many armies have at least some units and/or wargear that aren't as competative as other options, but that are nevertheless fun to use.

Like what? And if that's the case, then that sounds more like a flaw with every other codex than the Grey Knights codex if its options are both fun AND competitive. Personally I think Jokaero and Grenades are fun.

Noobie2k7
29-01-2012, 20:43
Like what? And if that's the case, then that sounds more like a flaw with every other codex than the Grey Knights codex if its options are both fun AND competitive. Personally I think Jokaero and Grenades are fun. So you're saying that it;s the other codex's fault cause not everything they have is OP? And just cause you find fielding nothing but cheese fun doesn't mean everyone else does.


That wasn't what I asked.

Let me put it another way: Many armies have at least some units and/or wargear that aren't as competative as other options, but that are nevertheless fun to use. I was wondering if there was anything in the GK codex that you'd put into this category?

Dreadknights or Purgation squads are the only ones i could think of. And dreadknights are still pretty powerful.

Blink
29-01-2012, 20:55
So you're saying that it;s the other codex's fault cause not everything they have is OP? And just cause you find fielding nothing but cheese fun doesn't mean everyone else does.

... Do you realize what you just said?

Think about what it means to be overpowered. It's relative and subjective based on the average. What I'm saying is options should ALWAYS be both fun and competitive. Way to be FAR too assuming by saying I find nothing but cheese fun.

The army isn't even all that cheesy. The fact that they can pretty much only field relatively low numbers means you can consistently rely on them to have that exploitable weakness. It's a strategy game; employ some and Grey Knights become FAR less of a threat. Bash into them head-on (apply directly to the forehead), and you're probably going to lose miserably.


Dreadknights or Purgation squads are the only ones i could think of. And dreadknights are still pretty powerful.

How are Purgation squads particularly more fun than anything else?

Bunnahabhain
29-01-2012, 21:01
Grenades would be fun, if for instance, you could only have one active in any given combat, rather than them all stacking. And they didn't count against instant death thresholds...
The Codex is a bit over the top, but the daft FAQs is the cherry on top of that.

Vipoid
29-01-2012, 21:06
Like what? And if that's the case, then that sounds more like a flaw with every other codex than the Grey Knights codex if its options are both fun AND competitive.

Firstly, I'd strongly argue against a lot of the units and options in the GK codex being fun (especially for the opponent), however I suppose it's subjective so I'll try and avoid going into such debates.

My point is, there's no such thing as a 'uncompetative' or 'for-fun' GK list. Virtually any list you can make will be highly competative. Now, you can easily say that this is a flaw with every other codex. However, the GK codex is the one that is different from the others in this regard. For example, if I want to play a casual game, it would be nice to play off against more casual lists - where I can use some of the more fun units in my codices without being crushed outright. And that's the problem - every GK list is highly competative, and leaves no room for less-competative (but more fun) models in my armies.

I imagine that you see this as a success of the GK codex and a flaw in all others, but it nevertheless makes the GK codex the least fun to play for me (and, probably quite a few other casual players as well).

Blink
29-01-2012, 21:07
Grenades would be fun, if for instance, you could only have one active in any given combat, rather than them all stacking. And they didn't count against instant death thresholds...
The Codex is a bit over the top, but the daft FAQs is the cherry on top of that.

The thing is, you can go several games in a row without grenades seeing much if any use. Only a select number of rather expensive (and sometimes fragile) models have the option for the Grenades, and they cost a healthy amount themselves, so they are a sparse upgrade. Most units in the army are powerful enough that the Grenades make only a small difference against all but the most powerful close combat units... otherwise it just makes the one-sided fights against weaker non-combaty models even more amusing.


However, the GK codex is the one that is different from the others in this regard. For example, if I want to play a casual game, it would be nice to play off against more casual lists - where I can use some of the more fun units in my codices without being crushed outright.

I don't understand this. How do you have such a hard time against Grey Knights? I run 2 Harpies and 2 Tyrannofexes in my Tyranid list, 2 units that are widely panned and deemed less than competitive, and I am capable of rolling through Grey Knights just by playing right.

What exactly are these "casual" lists you're bringing that you're having so much trouble beating them?

Also, what defines "casual play" for you anyway? Don't you always play to win? Isn't that why you're so upset; because you feel like the odds are stacked against you that you can't?

itcamefromthedeep
29-01-2012, 22:38
Let me put it another way: Many armies have at least some units and/or wargear that aren't as competative as other options, but that are nevertheless fun to use. I was wondering if there was anything in the GK codex that you'd put into this category?
If I may, there's Karamzov nuking a Callidus with "by any means necessary" on his orbital strike relay. They're incidentally both fun models on their own.

Servo-skulls
Jokaero, in moderation
Daemonhosts, in moderation
Librarian using the Summoning
Inqusitor dual-wielding Daemonblades
Stern and his Zone of Banishment


My point is, there's no such thing as a 'uncompetative' or 'for-fun' GK list.
Challenge accepted.

1750
- Karamzov
- Coteaz
- 5 Paladins with halberds and 1 psycannon
- Callidus Assassin
- Henchmen: 10 Warrior Acolytes, 6 hotshot lasguns, 2 meltaguns, 1 power weapon
Chimera, multilaser & flamer
- Henchmen: 10 Warrior Acolytes, 6 hotshot lasguns, 2 meltaguns, 1 power weapon
Chimera, multilaser & flamer
- Henchmen: 10 Warrior Acolytes, 6 hotshot lasguns, 2 meltaguns, 1 power weapon
Chimera, multilaser & heavy bolter
- Henchmen: 3 Servitors with plasma cannons, jokaero, 8 warriors with 5 bolters and 3 plasma guns <<< Karamazov hangs out here.
- Henchmen: 2 crusaders, 2 DCAs, 2 arco-flagellants, a Banshisher with Eviscerator, 3 Warriors with 2 power weapons <<< Coteaz goes here
Chimera: 2 heavy flamers
- Dreadnought: fist and twin lascannon

There you have it, an Inquisitorial army list with some sillyness and 6 heroic Grey Knight models backing it up. That army could be fun to play with and fun to play against.

orkmiester
30-01-2012, 10:34
My point is, there's no such thing as a 'uncompetative' or 'for-fun' GK list

i'll partly agree with that- i did my twin stormraven list as an antidote to all those rhinos etc you see around, and it still hurts (though with the other GK player turning up with a far more 'optimised' list i can claim being 'fun':p) the last time i used it even with the deepstrikes involved my guard opponent got whacked. It was a weird feeling on the one hand ouch...:o and on the second :wtf: they are damm powerful no matter what, even if my list includes no tanks as such apart from the two ravens.

Though i suppose i ought to start using my GK a little more now the rifleman dreads have caused a stir just to 'tone things down':evilgrin:


I think the problem all these people are having is that GK are a good army that requires you to have to play smart. you can't rush headlong at Gk's you got to pick and choose and double team units and make sure you get more fire on 1 unit while limiting what can hit yo back. they are not a hard or cheesy army they just require tactics.

that is too true, in retrospect i am rather pleased that me and our expert chaos player were not steamrolled when we faced him (it was dammed close though), it goes without saying he had the better army and codex for that matter, but that wee thing called experience kicked in and we won probably, because of that fact alone:rolleyes:

:angel:

Noobie2k7
30-01-2012, 10:47
If I may, there's Karamzov nuking a Callidus with "by any means necessary" on his orbital strike relay. They're incidentally both fun models on their own.

Servo-skulls
Jokaero, in moderation
Daemonhosts, in moderation
Librarian using the Summoning
Inqusitor dual-wielding Daemonblades
Stern and his Zone of Banishment


Challenge accepted.

1750
- Karamzov
- Coteaz
- 5 Paladins with halberds and 1 psycannon
- Callidus Assassin
- Henchmen: 10 Warrior Acolytes, 6 hotshot lasguns, 2 meltaguns, 1 power weapon
Chimera, multilaser & flamer
- Henchmen: 10 Warrior Acolytes, 6 hotshot lasguns, 2 meltaguns, 1 power weapon
Chimera, multilaser & flamer
- Henchmen: 10 Warrior Acolytes, 6 hotshot lasguns, 2 meltaguns, 1 power weapon
Chimera, multilaser & heavy bolter
- Henchmen: 3 Servitors with plasma cannons, jokaero, 8 warriors with 5 bolters and 3 plasma guns <<< Karamazov hangs out here.
- Henchmen: 2 crusaders, 2 DCAs, 2 arco-flagellants, a Banshisher with Eviscerator, 3 Warriors with 2 power weapons <<< Coteaz goes here
Chimera: 2 heavy flamers
- Dreadnought: fist and twin lascannon

There you have it, an Inquisitorial army list with some sillyness and 6 heroic Grey Knight models backing it up. That army could be fun to play with and fun to play against. That's like chimera vets on crack. If you dropped the paladins i could see it being more balanced. Maybe putting Coteaz in a stormraven those are always fun to use. But i can understand where you were coming from but Inquisitors in the GK book are still super broken.

The Death of Reason
30-01-2012, 12:05
...i can understand where you were coming from but Inquisitors in the GK book are still super broken.

They're what???

Inquisitors are rarely more than grenade carriers to a unit of Death Cult Assassins/Crusaders, and here we're talking a 4-10 point 'upgrade' to a 15 point T3, 5++ model. They're horribly vulnerable to ID because of their measly T3, so you'll have to prepare yourself for seeing them dead to a power fist after their first charge - unless they happen to wipe out their opponents. A tricked out unit of assassins with Inquisitor and a chimera/rhino ride will set you back points in the vicinity of 300 - at this price most people will expect them to be able to do some damage. Sure they'll rape even the assaultiest of assault marines up close, but at the same time they'll fold quickly to even lasgun fire.

Then there is Coteaz, who can make a nice fire base with plasma cannons, jokaero holed up in a chimera - woohoo, thats nearly 200 points (Coteaz not included) for some BS3 long range shooting, roughly 1,5 long fang/blood angel devastator pack. And then he can spam some razorback henchmen - compared to spammin' melta vets or other razorbacks.

-

Other much whined about models are;

The 'psyfleman'. Again a long fang/BA devastator can bring the same volume of fire, but they won't go ka-boom to a lucky first turn shot, not unless they receive some serious attention at least.

Paladins.. Tricked out with an Apothecary, they come to 62,5+ points/model, then to really take advantage of their FNP, you need to field them in a single squad of more than 600 points - thats 30 Death Company marines - and they still fall to lascannons/melta/etc. just like normal terminators, sure the addition of Draigos wounds, 3++ and Eternal Warrior does make them a rather tough nut to crack, but then we're talking 900+ points.. Ignore them, see Draigo get sucked back into the warp at end game, and sit on all the other objectives, as your full 1750 army can concentrate on wiping out a measly 800 points. I will agree that playing deathstars is not my cup of tea, as they're as tactical as Tic Tac Toe.

Fancy grenades - have you guys seen the price tag on these? A grand master comes out at around 200 points (4 paladins), and doesn't add that much in the form of killiness to a squad - he even stops power armoured marines from making a Sweeping Advance. A techmarine has one wound and will set you back 120-140 points and an elite slot. Most times just adding a character with Hammerhand to a squad would give the same outcome without the grenades.

Grenades, Psychotroke - can't believe the luck people have with these, 9/10 times mine will have no effect on the outcome whatsoever.

Then there are the Purifiers.. Anti-horde, anti-elite, anti-monster, anti-armour, anti-everything. They were just a mistake, and the ability to be spammed as troop choices is just pure and utter idiocy. Why they didn't get some added mobility just for kicks, I just attribute to pure laziness.

Noobie2k7
30-01-2012, 12:17
I just think Psyblots are so damn cheap. I have nothing wrong with psyflemen as most of the time it's 5 guys so not really worth the 20pts. but it's the fact for most vehicles it's like 5/10pts for +1S for they're weapons, that's just silly.

Noobie2k7
30-01-2012, 12:22
Then there are the Purifiers.. Anti-horde, anti-elite, anti-monster, anti-armour, anti-everything. They were just a mistake, and the ability to be spammed as troop choices is just pure and utter idiocy. Why they didn't get some added mobility just for kicks, I just attribute to pure laziness. This is the main point i agree with you on. I'm a bit of fluff-nut too and being able to spam something that only exists in the entire galaxy in tiny numbers just doesn't make sense. They should be a 01/0-2 unit at best to actually fit with the GK fluff. There only exists like 50 of them and somehow Crowe could let you field up to 90. Plus they have the most silly psychic power in the entire 40K universe and still have better special weapon options that most elite and HQ squads in most armies.

MagicHat
30-01-2012, 12:33
@ Noobie2k7: Don't be silly, that army is not broken.
Those "chimera vets on crack" statistically kills less MEQ and have worse AT then chimera veterans with three meltaguns.
The majority of the killing power is within 24", and the majority of the models are T3 with a 5+ save.
They have 5 AV12 hulls. Whoop de doo.
Ranged AT is a joke as well.
This army is no way near as strong as a good IG veteran build.



Daemonhosts, in moderation

You coward, YOU FOOL!

1750 points
Coteaz
Ordo Malleus, dual deamonblade, power armour, psyker (HH)

10 Deamonhosts, chimera ML, HF.
10 Deamonhosts, chimera ML, HF.
10 Deamonhosts, chimera ML, HF.
11 Deamonhosts, chimera ML, HF.
11 Deamonhosts, chimera ML, HF.

2 Jokaero, 3 multimelta servitors, 3 acolytes with meltagun, Chimera ML, HF. Coteaz goes here.
5 Dc assasins, 4 crusaders, 3 servitors, land raider Crusader, MM. Ordo Malleus goes here.
Dreadknight, Incinerator.
The opponent will go "What is your plan!?"
And you will scream "I have no idea! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t348e24vDyA)"

LonelyPath
30-01-2012, 12:55
I'm not trying to be offensive here, but where is the variety in a GK army?

~snipped to save space~

I'm on about taking a wide variety of options as Troops when you take various HQ entries (Draigo, Crowe, Coteaz, etc) that opens up various avenues. Yes, it means that a SC has to be taken to get them, but the options are there and Coteaz (and Crowe himself) is hardly OP when you compare them to the likes of Librarians and some =I= builds that are available for those models. Then again, people just tend to take those models as a means to a end, whilst I do actually put them to use in the table.

There are models beyond GK in the list and I often field lists using Psyker and Acolyte henchmen (sans storm bolters as I think that's a bit cheeky for a model that cheap) and even try to keep my Crusaders and DCA limited to a single unit where possible. I keep wanting to try Techmarines with orbital relays too for fun.

Then again, in my last game I took 2 =I=, 40 GK in strike Squads with only psybolt ammo as upgrades and relied on other things like Razorbacks and a couple of non-psyfleman dreads (literally 2 each of RB and Dreads) for my heavier firepower. It was good fun to use and against the DE I was facing became a very close battle (who cares about those NFW when your opponent has poor armour anyway? lol). True, their transports suffered because of those S5 shots at them all the time, but with my rolling it wasn't to bad for them, lol.

I'm going off course in this post, but the variety is there, just people I see tend to ignore anything in the list that isn't a GK model.

Also, I also want to try the Karamazov + Callidus combo, again for a laugh.

Noobie2k7
30-01-2012, 12:56
@ Noobie2k7: Don't be silly, that army is not broken.
Those "chimera vets on crack" statistically kills less MEQ and have worse AT then chimera veterans with three meltaguns.
The majority of the killing power is within 24", and the majority of the models are T3 with a 5+ save.
They have 5 AV12 hulls. Whoop de doo.
Ranged AT is a joke as well.
This army is no way near as strong as a good IG veteran build.


You coward, YOU FOOL!

1750 points
Coteaz
Ordo Malleus, dual deamonblade, power armour, psyker (HH)

10 Deamonhosts, chimera ML, HF.
10 Deamonhosts, chimera ML, HF.
10 Deamonhosts, chimera ML, HF.
11 Deamonhosts, chimera ML, HF.
11 Deamonhosts, chimera ML, HF.

2 Jokaero, 3 multimelta servitors, 3 acolytes with meltagun, Chimera ML, HF. Coteaz goes here.
5 Dc assasins, 4 crusaders, 3 servitors, land raider Crusader, MM. Ordo Malleus goes here.
Dreadknight, Incinerator.
The opponent will go "What is your plan!?"
And you will scream "I have no idea! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t348e24vDyA)" bahahahahahahahaha. Now that is a list i would love to play against. Not for any strategic reasons but just cause it's mental. Still needs more daemonhosts though.

vcassano
30-01-2012, 13:28
They're what???

Inquisitors are rarely more than grenade carriers to a unit of Death Cult Assassins/Crusaders, and here we're talking a 4-10 point 'upgrade' to a 15 point T3, 5++ model. They're horribly vulnerable to ID because of their measly T3, so you'll have to prepare yourself for seeing them dead to a power fist after their first charge - unless they happen to wipe out their opponents. A tricked out unit of assassins with Inquisitor and a chimera/rhino ride will set you back points in the vicinity of 300 - at this price most people will expect them to be able to do some damage. Sure they'll rape even the assaultiest of assault marines up close, but at the same time they'll fold quickly to even lasgun fire.

Then there is Coteaz, who can make a nice fire base with plasma cannons, jokaero holed up in a chimera - woohoo, thats nearly 200 points (Coteaz not included) for some BS3 long range shooting, roughly 1,5 long fang/blood angel devastator pack. And then he can spam some razorback henchmen - compared to spammin' melta vets or other razorbacks.

-

Other much whined about models are;

The 'psyfleman'. Again a long fang/BA devastator can bring the same volume of fire, but they won't go ka-boom to a lucky first turn shot, not unless they receive some serious attention at least.

Paladins.. Tricked out with an Apothecary, they come to 62,5+ points/model, then to really take advantage of their FNP, you need to field them in a single squad of more than 600 points - thats 30 Death Company marines - and they still fall to lascannons/melta/etc. just like normal terminators, sure the addition of Draigos wounds, 3++ and Eternal Warrior does make them a rather tough nut to crack, but then we're talking 900+ points.. Ignore them, see Draigo get sucked back into the warp at end game, and sit on all the other objectives, as your full 1750 army can concentrate on wiping out a measly 800 points. I will agree that playing deathstars is not my cup of tea, as they're as tactical as Tic Tac Toe.

Fancy grenades - have you guys seen the price tag on these? A grand master comes out at around 200 points (4 paladins), and doesn't add that much in the form of killiness to a squad - he even stops power armoured marines from making a Sweeping Advance. A techmarine has one wound and will set you back 120-140 points and an elite slot. Most times just adding a character with Hammerhand to a squad would give the same outcome without the grenades.

Grenades, Psychotroke - can't believe the luck people have with these, 9/10 times mine will have no effect on the outcome whatsoever.

Then there are the Purifiers.. Anti-horde, anti-elite, anti-monster, anti-armour, anti-everything. They were just a mistake, and the ability to be spammed as troop choices is just pure and utter idiocy. Why they didn't get some added mobility just for kicks, I just attribute to pure laziness.

Paladins aren't really broken in any way, I'd say. They are really expensive and, as with all terminator-armies, they are heavily match-up dependent. Some armies will thrash them without breaking a sweat, others will struggle immensely. The stupidity of them is in regards to wound-allocation abuse. Here is where it is most obvious that the book was written with 6th in mind - even if you don't put much weight on the leaked rules, the wound allocation rules at present are bad and will almost certainly be changed.

Purifiers are ridiculous, there is no other way around it. Well, Purifiers as core troops is ridiculous. Crowe should be 250 points if that option is to be kept alive- that is sufficient a millstone, I feel. Purifiers as an elite slot are a little more sensible. The option to have 4 psycannons is quite clever - if you take them if leaves the player with 2 choices; combat squad and get an inferior combat unit and a good but exorbitant shooting unit or stay together and be stuck in the backfield, ignoring much of the unit's strength. If both types of dreadnoughts were elite choices it would make for a very interesting conundrum....

The grenades are a bit silly because they are a bit too much of a no-brainer, but oh well.



I just think Psyblots are so damn cheap. I have nothing wrong with psyflemen as most of the time it's 5 guys so not really worth the 20pts. but it's the fact for most vehicles it's like 5/10pts for +1S for they're weapons, that's just silly.

Psybolts are too cheap on Dreadnoughts and Razorbacks, for sure. (I say this as a long time Daemonhunter and now Grey Knight player) They should be +10 points per weapon they are usable on. Also fortitude should cause a penetrating hit when the psychic pilot perils. Then you can still repair yourself but it is of greater risk. It makes it more of a last-ditch panic button, where the pilot pushes through the pain to heroically stir the vehicle into action. That seems fairer and more characterful.

Daemonbane is the worst rule that Grey Knights have. It makes some sense for Daemons to be able to be instantly killed by Nemesis force weapons - that is their purpose - but from a rules standpoint, it breaks the fundamental army-wide USR that Daemons possess - eternal warrior.

The Death of Reason
30-01-2012, 13:31
I just think Psyblots are so damn cheap. I have nothing wrong with psyflemen as most of the time it's 5 guys so not really worth the 20pts. but it's the fact for most vehicles it's like 5/10pts for +1S for they're weapons, that's just silly.

Yeah, but the price of the upgrade is irrelevant, you need to look at the total point cost for the unit. What is silly is that the price on infantry isn't tied to the size of the squad, but instead is a fixed price - this of course encourages larger squads, but aren't a problem with combat squads.

And then there are other costs, such as when you use psybolts on storm raven or crusaders, and your bolters suddenly lose their defensive weapon qualities.

BTW: 'Psyfleman' is used to describe a dreadnought with 2 twin linked autocannons and psybolts, not infantry :)

Noobie2k7
30-01-2012, 13:38
I thought they were just psyfledreads and Psyflemen were strike/termie squads wit psybolts. Oh wells.

Vipoid
30-01-2012, 13:39
If I may, there's Karamzov nuking a Callidus with "by any means necessary" on his orbital strike relay. They're incidentally both fun models on their own.

Servo-skulls
Jokaero, in moderation
Daemonhosts, in moderation
Librarian using the Summoning
Inqusitor dual-wielding Daemonblades
Stern and his Zone of Banishment


I dislike Servo-Skulls. They seem far too cheap for an upgrade that essentially lets the GK player prevent virtually all enemy scout and infiltration.

However, I'd agree with Daemonhosts, Daemonblades (and their accompanying inquisitor). I'd also forgotten about Karamzov's "by any means necessary" ability, which is funny.




Challenge accepted.

1750
- Karamzov
- Coteaz
- 5 Paladins with halberds and 1 psycannon
- Callidus Assassin
- Henchmen: 10 Warrior Acolytes, 6 hotshot lasguns, 2 meltaguns, 1 power weapon
Chimera, multilaser & flamer
- Henchmen: 10 Warrior Acolytes, 6 hotshot lasguns, 2 meltaguns, 1 power weapon
Chimera, multilaser & flamer
- Henchmen: 10 Warrior Acolytes, 6 hotshot lasguns, 2 meltaguns, 1 power weapon
Chimera, multilaser & heavy bolter
- Henchmen: 3 Servitors with plasma cannons, jokaero, 8 warriors with 5 bolters and 3 plasma guns <<< Karamazov hangs out here.
- Henchmen: 2 crusaders, 2 DCAs, 2 arco-flagellants, a Banshisher with Eviscerator, 3 Warriors with 2 power weapons <<< Coteaz goes here
Chimera: 2 heavy flamers
- Dreadnought: fist and twin lascannon

There you have it, an Inquisitorial army list with some sillyness and 6 heroic Grey Knight models backing it up. That army could be fun to play with and fun to play against.

The halberd paladins might be annoying, but I'd agree that this list would probably be fun to play (and certainly much more fun than most of the lists I end up against).




You coward, YOU FOOL!

1750 points
Coteaz
Ordo Malleus, dual deamonblade, power armour, psyker (HH)

10 Deamonhosts, chimera ML, HF.
10 Deamonhosts, chimera ML, HF.
10 Deamonhosts, chimera ML, HF.
11 Deamonhosts, chimera ML, HF.
11 Deamonhosts, chimera ML, HF.

2 Jokaero, 3 multimelta servitors, 3 acolytes with meltagun, Chimera ML, HF. Coteaz goes here.
5 Dc assasins, 4 crusaders, 3 servitors, land raider Crusader, MM. Ordo Malleus goes here.
Dreadknight, Incinerator.
The opponent will go "What is your plan!?"
And you will scream "I have no idea! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t348e24vDyA)"

Heh, that army could certainly be amusing to play.


Ok, guys, I'll accept that GK do have a few fun builds. I just wish I could play against lists like these more often...

Noobie2k7
30-01-2012, 13:41
I'd love to set up and see my opponent bought along like 40 daemonhosts or arco-flagelllents. It would be a lot of fun and enjoyable for both players. Like my fantasy goblins that has bpretty much every random movement and stuff things i could stick in.

Blink
30-01-2012, 13:52
Daemonbane doesn't really break eternal warrior. It is far harder to fail a ld check than pass it.

Daemon Primarch Lorgar
30-01-2012, 14:14
My worst army in terms of competitiveness is my Grey Knights.. I play a Draigo wing, just because it's a entirely different gaming experience if you compare it to my other army, an IG infantry horde. I have yet to win a game with my GKs. My IG have yet to lose a game. Still enjoy playing both armies just as much as the battles are always extremely close and the victor can seldom be announced until the very last turn and sometimes even until the very last dice has been rolled. So no, I have no problem with GKs. I have no problem with any 40k army. Sometimes I may raise an eyebrow when I see some peoples' army lists, but that is just because I am not used to play my 40k as I would play my Magic the Gathering. It's simply to much time and money to invest in models and armies that I don't buy simply for their "feel". :)

Vipoid
30-01-2012, 14:16
Daemonbane doesn't really break eternal warrior. It is far harder to fail a ld check than pass it.

To be honest, Daemonbane seems one of the fairest aspects of the GK codex. :p

Noobie2k7
30-01-2012, 14:20
To be honest, Daemonbane seems one of the fairest aspects of the GK codex. :p hehe, i honestly thought if they named their weapons 'nemesis daemon weapons' and gave them all daemon bane instead of making them all force weapons it would be made more sense. Also would have made them what they were supposed to be, good against daemons not everyone except daemons.

Vipoid
30-01-2012, 14:26
hehe, i honestly thought if they named their weapons 'nemesis daemon weapons' and gave them all daemon bane instead of making them all force weapons it would be made more sense. Also would have made them what they were supposed to be, good against daemons not everyone except daemons.

That would have been nice. I can understand that GKs need to be competative against other races, but it seems like their weapons should be most effective against daemons, rather than less effective. :p

To be honest, I don't even object strongly to every GK being armed with a force weapon (although I don't see why their force weapons should be stronger than those of other races). I only object to them having force weapons that can strike at genestealer initiative. Strike squads pay a reasonable price for them, but their cost on other units is either marginal or nonexistant.

Noobie2k7
30-01-2012, 14:30
Plus most of the time you don;t need to add anything other than like 3-5 points for halbards. and with termies i'd rather have the +1 to my invun saves for free. Plus i that falchions are too expensive in general for what they are. Might as well just take the cheaper +2 ini and insta-gib everything you hit instead.

Vipoid
30-01-2012, 14:39
Plus most of the time you don;t need to add anything other than like 3-5 points for halbards. and with termies i'd rather have the +1 to my invun saves for free. Plus i that falchions are too expensive in general for what they are. Might as well just take the cheaper +2 ini and insta-gib everything you hit instead.

In most cases, I'd switch the cost of halberds and falchions. If I was using GK terminators/Paladins, I'd only ever pay for falchions so that I could abuse wound-allocation rules. I mean, let's say I was planning to use a squad of 5 terminators. I could kit them out with falchions for a total cost of 25pts. Or, I could give them four of them halberds, and spend the 25pts to give the last one a brotherhood banner. I get slightly fewer attacks, but they all hit at I6 and insta-kill anything without EW, not to mention bypassing most (if not all) psychic defences.

Furthermore, as an opponent of GK, I'd gladly let your terminators/purifiers/paladins or whatever have more attacks - if it meant I might actually get to roll some dice during the combat.

Vipoid
30-01-2012, 14:40
Plus most of the time you don;t need to add anything other than like 3-5 points for halbards. and with termies i'd rather have the +1 to my invun saves for free. Plus i that falchions are too expensive in general for what they are. Might as well just take the cheaper +2 ini and insta-gib everything you hit instead.

In most cases, I'd switch the cost of halberds and falchions. If I was using GK terminators/Paladins, I'd only ever pay for falchions so that I could abuse wound-allocation rules. I mean, let's say I was planning to use a squad of 5 terminators. I could kit them out with falchions for a total cost of 25pts. Or, I could give them four of them halberds, and spend the 25pts to give the last one a brotherhood banner. I get slightly fewer attacks, but they all hit at I6 and insta-kill anything without EW, not to mention bypassing most (if not all) psychic defences.

Furthermore, as an opponent of GK, I'd gladly let your terminators/purifiers/paladins or whatever have more attacks, if it meant I'd actually getting roll some dice during the combat.