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34thGingerbread
28-01-2012, 03:51
So perhaps this is my fault, but being new to Warhammer Fantasy I didn't really know any better. When selecting an army I went for the one that seemed to have the most personality, large amounts of hilarious troop types, and lore with enjoyable enough fluff. I settled eventually on Skaven, being (1) given a great deal by a close friend (2) my experiences with the creatures from Gotrek and Felix and (3) the fact that they have the ability to use flamethrowers. It seemed like a win-win at the time for me. My close friend picked up Lizardmen, and my wife High Elves so that we could all have a great time (though since she's moved to the new VC).

Little did I know, I had invested money into an army that is universally panned as being one of the cheesiest things to exist in the history of gaming ever. Having run with the army for a few months now I can understand where the perspective comes from: Skaven is an army that has a lot of synergy with virtually no thought. The army book sells them as a team that has high risk/high reward units, which is true to a particular extent. But picking up a block of 20 Clanrats isn't nearly as important as picking up the single weapons team that you're really looking forward to, and watching that 70-55 point investment demolish something of yours that's far more expensive (though carries fewer stipulations) can be extremely depressing.

I'm just really not sure what I'm supposed to do at this point. I've gathered enough Skaven to field 2500 easily, without tossing down multiple HPAs or things that would make most people frown or otherwise QQ. I try to make all my lists 'soft', so that they'll still be a lot of fun to play against (and as) but won't contain unit/item combos that will simply demoralize when they start doing damage (like the Plague Monk unique banner), but at the end of the day I'm still just not sure about how I feel about the army. I absolutely love Skaven, don't get me wrong, but should I be looking to invest in another army at this point simply so my friends will have a 'fun' alternative to play against? We've yet to play properly with the new VC book, and our major problem with HE was that they were boring to play as, but from my perspective all three of their armies are just as viable (and well represented) in top tier lists as mine is.

Suggestions?

gdsora
28-01-2012, 04:13
Honestly if you are playing soft lists, I think you just need to keep playing. What does your list look like? What do theirs look like?

Another thing t o look at is seeing if your bringing stuff they simply cant counter. And try to avoid it. Sure maybe 1abom isn't bad, but if they don't have anything possible to stand up to it it might be a bad choice.


Just my 2 cents

Rosstifer
28-01-2012, 04:19
Lizardmen should be able to filth it up to Skaven Levels. If you don't take Slaves, Abominations, Grey Seers and Gutter Runners that'll cut out 90% of the cheese. Skaven can do soft armys. What are you running?

dwarfhold13
28-01-2012, 05:08
One thing not mentioned, at least until I read this. Switch armies with your friends/wife for a few games. I guarantee you it's not the list. The randomness of dice rolls can add to it, and just the fact that who you're playing needs to know what to take out first.
I want to add something from personal experience though, and please do read this. When I started playing in 97, I picked up Tyranids, and a buddy of mine played Blood Angels. Looking back on it now, he did flex the rules a little and played on my ignorance at the time, because he was just that kinda kid. With that said though, I still cherish those times of hanging out with friends and just doing nonsense stuff. I lost every game I ever played against him, and yet I still wouldn't trade any of that time for anything. Yeah it's disappointing to say the least, but you aren't playing with toys with your friends to ultimately be uber-competative. Try also picking some of the scenarios in the book that favor them, and have a go at it. When I have ever played skaven, unless they bring the power stuff, it's a craps shoot to see how it would end up.. There are games where everything runs off the table, and then there are games where every roll of 4 or under on 2d6 is made.
Have fun with it!

34thGingerbread
28-01-2012, 05:20
I'll toss down a couple of my lists:

1000pts

40 Clanrats (spears, banner, musician)
-Warpfire Thrower
25 Stormvermin (full command, stormbanner)
-Ratling Gun
3 Jezzails
Warp Lightning Cannon
Engineer (lv 1)
Warlord (Warlock augmented weapons, warpstone armor, talisman of protection)

1500
40 Clanrats (shields, spears, banner, musician)
-Warpfire Thrower
25 Stormvermin (full command, stormbanner)
-Ratling Gun
30 Plague Monks (FC)
BSB (war banner)
Engineer (lv 2, energy condenser, dispel scroll)
Warlord (see above)
Warp Lightning Cannon
Doomwheel

To be honest I try to stick with the same 'core' for each points range, that being my 1k list, and just create variations from there. I've tried one where I've dropped the Wheel, and a weapons team for jezzails and a HPA. I even went with a 1500 list that had Rat Ogres as the only specials. I've been quite fortunate in the sense that I have just about everything I need to make any army I would like (within reason), so I've been trying as many different variations as possible before we hit 2k.

Rosstifer
28-01-2012, 05:29
Skaven are alot better than most armies at lower points values because everything in the book is so damn cheap. Try 2400, at tht level Lizardmen can run 2 Slaans, some solo Scar Vets, plenty of Saurus and Skinks, and enough Salamanders to make most T3 armies weep. High Elves are always going to have a hard time against Skaven, maybe encourage her to run Book of Hoeth to level the playing field?

Honestly, the lists you run look fluffy and fun to me, I wouldn't mind playing them at all.

Duke Ramulots
28-01-2012, 05:50
I play against Skaven once in a while and have to say I don't really understand why everyone hates on em.

Rosstifer
28-01-2012, 06:14
I've had 2 units of 20 Chaos Warriors and 15 Chosen Thirteenthed off in one game. He threw 6 dice at thirteenth at least once every turn (Double Grey Seer! Fun fun fun!) until I literally had nothing left he could cast it on. Worst game of Warhammer I've ever played. Alot of Skaven players play like this.

Malark
28-01-2012, 06:17
I face a similar problem. Not to yank my own chain here, but I've only lost once (aside from multiplayer scenarios like battle royale) with Skaven since I picked them. I chose them as an army because I liked the fluff and the idea of luck playing a key factor in the army. I'm trying to tone down my lists now to see if that helps, but I'm nearly considering of picking another army to play with my friends. Not sure if I'd be strong enough to resist temptation and avoid taking my ratmen to a tournament, since power gaming tends to be promoted by many players in the local scene :/

By the looks of your list, I'd consider mostly fluffy. You're not even fielding the good cheese!

Sophet Drahas
28-01-2012, 06:38
I saw you mentioned you try to maintain the same core and add to it or change up your specials and rares, etc. If you have the models, try coming up with at least one other list that really turns it on its ear.

Not directly WH related but when I used to play SWCCG, I played A LOT and always had a couple extremely different deck options to play with. One of the funnest games I ever played, I got womped on but it was extremely interactive and had enough variability that neither of us really knew what was going to happen next. I knew I was going to lose about 1/3 of the way through so I just went crazy and started doing things I'd never recommend in a tournament.

I haven't played 40k since 4th Ed but I kept about 4-5 lists that would keep things fresh and interesting. I'd experiment a lot and would usually pay the price but I have fun learning, usually. ;)

Torga_DW
28-01-2012, 06:45
Okay, this is not my area of expertise, and i don't own the army book. But to the OP, can you break it down in terms of characters, core, special and rare? Maybe a shuffle of balance in that regards might make the list more fun.

Balerion
28-01-2012, 07:00
If your opponents can't beat your soft lists they must just be terrible players. There's no other explanation.

Without the easy synergy that you mentioned in the first post the Skaven list is complete trash. So if you're deliberately building lists that curtail those synergistic combinations, and still losing, you need to either give your opponents some lessons on how to become better players or encourage them to make more powerful lists.

Edit: Missed the part about what armies your opponent play.

My knowledge of Lizardmen is very sketchy, so I don't have much to contribute on that front, other than to note that poison Skinks are generally agreed to number among the best warmachine hunters in the game (counteracting the exceptional back-of-the-board artillery threats Skaven present) and that Slann should be more than beefy enough to compete with Skaven in the magic phase.

HE actually do great against Skaven. They can easily go toe-to-claw with them in the magic phase (power spells, character sniping spells, drain magic, that power dice stealing item, the world banner, etc.) and dominate them in nearly every infantry matchup. Hordes of Spearmen will wipe out Clanrats/Slaves and even Stormvermin, Plague Monks and Rat Ogres at a ridiculous pace, letting alone the horrific damage Swordmasters or White Lions can inflict. Archers and Great Eagles are very good at handling weapon teams (although watch out for Ratling Guns if you have Eagles on the board).

Torga_DW
28-01-2012, 07:06
If your opponents can't beat your soft lists they must just be terrible players. There's no other explanation.

Without the easy synergy that you mentioned in the first post the Skaven list is complete trash. So if you're deliberately building lists that curtail those synergistic combinations, and still losing, you need to either give your opponents some lessons on how to become better players or encourage them to make more powerful lists.

Well, i see something productive in that. How about posting their lists as well? Maybe they are taking 'weak' lists, that people could give suggestions to on powering up.

valle
28-01-2012, 07:12
I agree, I would love to see the VC list your wife is going to use, also they might wanna check a few battle reps including their armies to get ideas about how to use them because honestly it sounds more like the problem lie with their abillities as balerion noted.

Rosstifer
28-01-2012, 08:08
HE actually do great against Skaven. They can easily go toe-to-claw with them in the magic phase (power spells, character sniping spells, drain magic, that power dice stealing item, the world banner, etc.) and dominate them in nearly every infantry matchup. Hordes of Spearmen will wipe out Clanrats/Slaves and even Stormvermin, Plague Monks and Rat Ogres at a ridiculous pace, letting alone the horrific damage Swordmasters or White Lions can inflict. Archers and Great Eagles are very good at handling weapon teams (although watch out for Ratling Guns if you have Eagles on the board).

Every time I've seen High Elves play Skaven they get Templated off the face of the earth. It does depend on the Skaven toys all working, but they so often do.

WizzyWarlock
28-01-2012, 08:15
With Skaven, your opponent really needs to know the Skaven army list to know what to hit first. If they don't, it can be pretty depressing looking at the mass of troops lined up against them and wondering how to get through it. When I first started fighting Skaven - I play Wood Elves - it was like running into a brick wall, but then I decided to check out the army book to see how they worked. After that, I've beaten the best player in our group of 8 who was playing Skaven and won a few games against the other Skaven player. And that's with Wood Elves!

lordfeint
28-01-2012, 08:54
I'd keep the rats, but pick up a second force just for fun and to mix it up. Maybe O&Gs, Dwarfs or Ogres. Something that isn't always so daunting to face. (Although my Dwarfs have winning records against both my regular Skaven opponents)

Maybe you could get your friend to play a second army as well.

I'd suggest Daemons of Chaos or Dark Elves. If he's even half good with em, you'll quickly see why some armies are just depressing to see assemble across the table.

I've started collecting Brets and can't wait to face my Skaven opponents with a force of Knights that will laugh at his 13th. Not to mention having a magic phase to toss Dwellers and other nastiness at them for a change.

stiltjet
28-01-2012, 09:07
You could try dropping 10 percents worth of army, and see if the games level out a bit more, making it more fun for you and your opponents.

Thalenchar
28-01-2012, 10:14
HE archers are the bane of the existence of my weapon teams... With the LoS rules as they are now and weapon teams having T3 and W1, even with a 4+ ward save, they most always die

Death Magic also kills (no pun intended) skaven easily enough. Low Ld means skaven warlocks (or even seers) will lose a couple of wounds to Death's signature spell. Both HE and Lizzies have access to Death.

|It's just a matter of finding the right tricks. HE and Lizardmen def can handle skaven, especially if you don't overboard on all the truly nasties in the book (but honestly, they can give you a good game even if you do go overboard). Haven't played vs VC yet, so can't offer much there.

The Lurkin Gherkin
28-01-2012, 12:23
I regularly play Skaven with WoC and HE, and am consistantly thrashed every time (except once when i managed to infernal gateway his Hellpit and his Horde with Grey Seer in it over two turns). I'm far from a good player, but to be honest, im not the worst, and when I play Skaven, i dont really enjoy it. With random movement allowing almost godlike maneuverability (assuming you can draw a straight line) the Hellpit and Doomwhell consistently shred whatever come in its path (unless I use Okkams Mindrazor, a devastating spell to face when running gribblies). The high toughness of the Doomwheel and the regen of the Hellpit make them tough nuts to crack, whilst the Doomwheels ability to shoot whilst in combat and the Hellpit's impact hits + thunderstomp + actual attacks (up to 6D6 attacks on a roll of a 3 for attacks on the charge!) make short work of most infantry. As you've probably guessed by now, I have a major gripe with the Hellpit and the Doomwheel! :)

Now, the ability to add ranks to leadership makes dynamite (re-rollable) Ld10 slave/clanrat tarpits. Also, coupled with the ability to (essentially) always know the 13th spell and skitter leap mean Greyseers can be quite devastating (especially to elite infantry with smaller unit sizes). Also, the cheap cheap cheap prices for slaves and clanrats (still S3 T3) make it hard to actually take your own maneuverability to the fore, as the entire board is covered with Skaven!!! Now, the list i consistantly play against is by far not the worst (1 Hellpit, 1 Doomwheel, 1 Warpplightning cannon, 2 x 40 slaves, 40 clanrats, 40 stormvermin) especially given that it there are no multiples of any rare choice, but it has given myself and my other friends major trouble (we're not power gamers at all, so the Skaven book took us by surprise).

Gosh, where was I? I think this gripe has gone on too long, but anyhow, when playing against Skaven I change the outcome of what I consider a victory. For example, today I managed to take down the Doomwheel and the Hellpit, a considerable task I would say! Although i lost the match, I still felt pretty proud by what I had achieved. On a side note, my friend who plays Dwarves consistently uses cannons to great effect against Skaven rares, though my other friends without much long range firepower (spells or war machines) have trouble with the ratmen.

I have no idea what I was actually going to say in this post but anyhow, before us is my wee gripe with Skaven, and are things you could consider when writing a list that's fun to face (though I by no means want to remove what make Skaven fun, IMO they just need a little more balance).

Kamenwati
28-01-2012, 13:25
It's no one thing with Skaven. It's that they have an embarrassment of riches and the ability to capitalize on the infantry favoring 8th Edition changes better then most. They do have, in my opinion, the most currently egregious mistake of a monster in the under priced Hellpit Abomination. A simple errata fixing the price to make them impossible to take duplicates of in under 3k would probably price them closer to their abilities.

34thGingerbread
28-01-2012, 14:01
I'll have to grab one of their lists, but playing against each army has been a similar-but-different experience. Against High Elves we found the games to be fair, provided the wife picked up that Book of Hoeth. We tried a 1000pt that featured a block of spearman waltzing around the board shredding everything they hit, and I think ultimately the problem with our HE vs Skaven matchups is that the elves just weren't that fun for her to use. We generally went 50/50 in our matchups.

Against Lizardmen has been a different story entirely, I know that my friend isn't nearly as good a player as the wife and I but even taking that into consideration he gets rolled amazingly hard everytime. I'm not sure if I should just be bumping up the points values when playing him (I hear 2k is a great spot for Lizardmen players) or what, he just gets really frazzled at watching me drop down a couple massive infantry blocks followed by monsters, weapons teams, and artillery. I feel like I've taken a lot of time in looking up the spells/units that most Skaven players get chewed out for using in non-tournament play and have avoided Dreaded 23th, double HPA, and other things of that nature (though I would imagine all would be fair in a tournament). Naturally we're still learning the rules as well, but I just can't help feel like I've picked the wrong army by proxy. Perhaps if the wife has more fun playing as VC things will be different, she's already enjoying having some different core units to mess around with, but against Lizardmen I don't really know what to say. It seems like a guaranteed win almost every time.

I do agree with all of you in that I should perhaps just give them my book for a day or two and let them read it. I take up a massive amount of time reading and researching their armies, they should perhaps be doing the same.

boli
28-01-2012, 14:22
Kill the leadership bubble and Skaven collaspe completely; "forget" to protect your grey seer as well next time and see what happens :)

34thGingerbread
28-01-2012, 16:06
Kill the leadership bubble and Skaven collaspe completely; "forget" to protect your grey seer as well next time and see what happens :)

The one time I used a grey seer it was on a bell, and I managed to break three groups of infantry with some fairly amazing Vermintide rolls. He's made one other appearance since, and I've been running the engineer with the condenser as my main caster. I'm thinking that the second we hit a 2k game of any form the seer is coming back though. Skaven have quite a few fun spells.

Balerion
28-01-2012, 17:32
I regularly play Skaven with WoC and HE, and am consistantly thrashed every time (except once when i managed to infernal gateway his Hellpit and his Horde with Grey Seer in it over two turns). I'm far from a good player, but to be honest, im not the worst, and when I play Skaven, i dont really enjoy it. With random movement allowing almost godlike maneuverability (assuming you can draw a straight line) the Hellpit and Doomwhell consistently shred whatever come in its path (unless I use Okkams Mindrazor, a devastating spell to face when running gribblies). The high toughness of the Doomwheel and the regen of the Hellpit make them tough nuts to crack, whilst the Doomwheels ability to shoot whilst in combat and the Hellpit's impact hits + thunderstomp + actual attacks (up to 6D6 attacks on a roll of a 3 for attacks on the charge!) make short work of most infantry. As you've probably guessed by now, I have a major gripe with the Hellpit and the Doomwheel! :)

It's been a while since I've done the math, but iirc Swordmasters and White Lions should be ble to handle a HPA relatively easily. With the flaming banner it becomes a joke. There is definitely a chance of getting screwed over when the HPA makes a good movement roll and shoots into your flank, preventing a charge, but the opposite thing will happen just as frequently, with the HPA getting a poor roll and ending up stranded right in front of you. And don't discount the utility of using archers to chip a couple of wounds off of it before you have to engage in combat. You can also use the Lore of Fire to good effect. A Lion Chariot might be able to pin a HPA in place, but it might also get slaughtered trying to do it

I don't find the Doomwheel all that strong against HE, considering their comparative lack of multiwound creatures.

Feefait
28-01-2012, 18:26
As a loooong time Skaven player I take exception to the idea that skaven are a no brainer. You do actually have to think about it. They are really nasty, yes. But they can be countered and also Okayed multiple ways. No one complains how chhesey they are when I bring my nightrunner list. Or when my doomwheel gets hit by a goblin arrow and maternal back unto my own troops. Being a skaven general you have to just get used to it. And historically, before SiN skaven were trash and got killed by anyone and everything. So take the dominance, it won't always happen that way.

As has been mentioned, at low points skaven are king of the hill simply because they can pretty much do anything. At higher points it starts to balance. I would techmmend dropping the wlc at 1000 though. One hit from that ruins any army at that level. That's not going to be fun for

anyone. Lol of course it could blow up, if be s2 so do what you will. :)

I would also like to add that if you're online researching tactics and lists and they aren't then that's way worse than your army choice, especially if you are all learning together. It's like if my friends and I start playing street fighter and I buy Tue book with all the super moves and counters but don't tell them. It's not fair, imo.

Torga_DW
28-01-2012, 19:49
Oh hey, i posted a really good idea on page 1..... that seems to have disappeared over night. So i'll try again and hope that the post sticks around this time. :rolleyes:

Maybe the OP can post the sort of lists that his friend (and gf? wife?) use for their army, and we can see if there are any problems there compared to what he's taking.

Thalenchar
30-01-2012, 07:43
The one time I used a grey seer it was on a bell, and I managed to break three groups of infantry with some fairly amazing Vermintide rolls. He's made one other appearance since, and I've been running the engineer with the condenser as my main caster. I'm thinking that the second we hit a 2k game of any form the seer is coming back though. Skaven have quite a few fun spells.

See, if you´re winning games because of your Seer on Bell and casting Vermintide we can definitely be sure you´re not playing to the Skaven´s strenghts ;)

popisdead
31-01-2012, 21:51
It happened to me when they re-did Wood Elves. The book was amazingly good.

I would say these days there are a few things that annoy me about Skaven (Doomwheels take the cake at T6) but I would never avoid a friendly game with a guy who just wanted to play.

dwarfhold13
01-02-2012, 06:41
man.. if you are putting your seer on a bell and taking a HPA under 2k, I can see where a new player would have some issues. Even as an occasional player that has played a long time, the HPA on the table freaks me out, and the bell is just a pain in the **** to get rid of!

Manling
01-02-2012, 18:52
Skaven are a very cheap and cheesey(heh) army, the sheer number of characters and devestating weaponry. HPA's are rediculous and second only to Hydra's in how good and cot effective they are. Engineers with doom rockets will mess up any unit and TBH their weapons teams dont leave alot of room for surviveablity for both parties. Even spells like Dreaded thirteen on greyseers with warp stone tokens means skaven are easy to just dominate the baord magically.

with that being said you should consider using the weaker choices like Stormvermin and Clanrats over Doomwheels and its a good idea to let your friends try playing your army to get a feel for it and vice versa. this will make your friends better players and gve everyone insights on each army.

jtrowell
01-02-2012, 20:17
If you like the Abomination model, or just want to sometimes play with a big monster, but find that it is too often too powerful for its cost (or unfun to your opponents), you could use the rules for the Brood Horror from Forge World with your abomination model.

The brood horror is a more standard monster, while still preserving the skaven feel.

Rules are available here:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/b/Broodhorror.pdf

MOMUS
01-02-2012, 20:25
Im playing a skaven army in a tourney soon and reading this thread makes me want to crush them. Not just win, but actually demolish the army.

Manling
02-02-2012, 00:04
Im playing a skaven army in a tourney soon and reading this thread makes me want to crush them. Not just win, but actually demolish the army.

could you do us a solid and post your list and if you can other lists i enjoy gainig a better understanding of the game and i want to make a tourney Debut with my Brets or my Empire

Chickenbane
07-02-2012, 14:29
Another long time skaven player here, it has a lot to do with the calibre of your opponent imo. I haven't played against VC in long time but a fear causing army used to be lethal on skaven. Usually a volley or two from a decent unit of archers should do enough damage to a Doomwheel (many times I've had it mullered by wood elf archers). Skaven are only brave with a rank bonus so thin the ranks and you get goblins! Luck evens itself out generally so it may have a lot to do with what you're facing, so if there aren't enough salamanders or poisoned javelins in the opponents army, it's not your fault! Don't be down on the army because you win! I'd like that complaint ;). Hate your army if you don't win! :skull:

Algovil
07-02-2012, 15:20
Another long time skaven player here, it has a lot to do with the calibre of your opponent imo. I haven't played against VC in long time but a fear causing army used to be lethal on skaven. Usually a volley or two from a decent unit of archers should do enough damage to a Doomwheel (many times I've had it mullered by wood elf archers). Skaven are only brave with a rank bonus so thin the ranks and you get goblins! Luck evens itself out generally so it may have a lot to do with what you're facing, so if there aren't enough salamanders or poisoned javelins in the opponents army, it's not your fault! Don't be down on the army because you win! I'd like that complaint ;). Hate your army if you don't win! :skull:

Ok, so IF we kill most of a unit, then we get goblins=> For less points, units better than goblins.

vcassano
07-02-2012, 16:09
I think the problem with Skaven (and I am talking in generalities here, of course it is possible to make cool, enjoyable lists) is they are random but not in a fun way, unlike Orcs and Gobbos. They have too many time consuming charts, gimmicks, toys and goodies. The Doomrocket is the worst of them - a complete no-brainer and very cheap. Same with the Brass Orb.

The Bell and Furnace are fun and pretty interesting. They aren't weak, but they aren't too unfair either. The Abomination can be troublesome if it returns to life, but if you don't have sufficient flaming or monster-hunting in your army then you have failed at list design, which is your own fault.

The fundamental problem is that they kill lots of models - both their own and the opponent's - but it is almost never disastrous for them as everything is so cheap. Therefore the mishaps almost don't matter, and almost seem mean-spirited in comparison to Orcish mishaps.

Druchii Monkey
07-02-2012, 18:05
From reading your posts doesn't sound like you've got an unbeatable army. Just sounds like your playing circle isn't quite up to the level needed to beat you yet?

I think your army still has mileage. Would recommend concentrating on the 1500 pts - 2000 pts level and experimisnting with a Hellpit Abomination and perhaps Ikit Klaw. These two models are great fluff wise and can add an extra dimension to your army. Might make you even more unstoppable but you never know.

Also, maybe recommend your lizardman friend get a few more skinks or you high elf opponent get a few more archers, to even up the numbers or kill your rats before they get to them. Playing Skaven is not a foregone conclusion for winning, but you've got to play to the levels/strangths of your gaming circle to an extent, if fun is your principal goal.

Chickenbane
07-02-2012, 21:43
Ok, so IF we kill most of a unit, then we get goblins=> For less points, units better than goblins.

I'm saying that by negating rank bonuses you get poor troops. I'm talking from experience at the start of a battle I have brave undefeatable Skaven warriors, missile fire, spells flank charges etc put a damper on things. But to be honest all these things work on all the armies anyway.

m1acca1551
07-02-2012, 22:23
From what it seems you are being genuine in your wanting your friends and wife being able to enjoy your your games together which is a massive thumbs up to you sir!!

The problem with skaven is that the imbalances or overpowering of certain units and rules, whilst being negated by your choosing of "soft" lists is still enough to give "weak" generals a massive uphill battle. Removing some of the rules on certain units untill you create a nice balance.

Strength in numbers on slaves cap at +3 to stop the LD 10 brutes they are or remove all together, will make your road blocks less harsh etc.

dementian
07-02-2012, 22:54
From what it seems you are being genuine in your wanting your friends and wife being able to enjoy your your games together which is a massive thumbs up to you sir!!

The problem with skaven is that the imbalances or overpowering of certain units and rules, whilst being negated by your choosing of "soft" lists is still enough to give "weak" generals a massive uphill battle. Removing some of the rules on certain units untill you create a nice balance.

Strength in numbers on slaves cap at +3 to stop the LD 10 brutes they are or remove all together, will make your road blocks less harsh etc.

Strength in numbers is capped at +3

Zentdiam
08-02-2012, 05:18
Also for SiN, since you are new, if you get hit in the flank with a unit that is 2 ranks of 5 or bigger, they lose SiN. This starts to hurt really fast. While Skaven can be made extremely cheesy, they are not an unfun army to play against. I constantly take un-cheesy lists and have games that other people love to play against. In the non internet world, most people have no problem playing Skaven. Don't think otherwise. Most players also do not cheese to the extreme and Skaven can be very unreliable.

I agree with other posters. I bet your opponents are just getting overwhelmed and not playing their best against your army. The HE should be able to easily take out your weapons teams. Even the lizardman can take skinks.

quietus1986
08-02-2012, 05:27
Skaven are easyer to deal with than WoC

Rosstifer
08-02-2012, 05:37
Skaven are easyer to deal with than WoC

Really? I mean, really?