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View Full Version : Hellcannon - Probably a stupid question



Gradek
28-01-2012, 11:56
Which hellcannon statline is "official" the one in my book is St5/T6, while the one on the GW website is S6/T7?

Rosstifer
28-01-2012, 11:58
They have the old Storm of Chaos profile on the website I think. Go off your Armybook. Don't take one though, they're well rubbish. Cool model though. Might be worth taking just for that. Yay for contradiction!

Keith_Lupton
28-01-2012, 12:01
Use the one listed in your army book. There is no way on Englands great, green and pleasant land that b***** is T7!! I have enough trouble with it as it is....... The GW site has a reputation for posting incorrect info on it.

destroyerlord
28-01-2012, 12:19
Ah, their old Storm of Chaos profile was a beauty. Similar stats to a Greater Daemon in combat, the template was stronger and caused terror tests, and it could spew Ichor (flame template) if it moved/assaulted that turn.

But yes, as above the profile in the army book is correct.

AlphariusOmegon20
28-01-2012, 14:57
Don't take one though, they're well rubbish.

I disagree.

I've had fairly good success in games when I've taken 2.

Snake1311
28-01-2012, 16:19
Don't take one though, they're well rubbish.

You trollling? lol. M6 unbreakable combat monster which fires S5 templates which cause panic at -1 Ld.

Azhrar
28-01-2012, 16:33
I find the hellcannon to be extremely effective, and so far it has only let me down once where it exploded. It is very good when used to protect your flanks and the enemy can't just take it out with the usual anti warmachine stuff. Horrible model to put together though.

Eta
28-01-2012, 16:48
They have the old Storm of Chaos profile on the website I think. Go off your Armybook. Don't take one though, they're well rubbish. Cool model though. Might be worth taking just for that. Yay for contradiction!

Second that, the thing is much too random to be really useful. The model is excellent, of course.

Rosstifer
28-01-2012, 19:17
Exactly. You don't see top players using one for a reason. Very random, potentially nasty to yourself, and free points against any army with Cannons. Empire will take it off turn 2-3 no issue. I know people think a str 5 template is brutal, but you won't get to use it very often against decent armies. 205pts is really expensive too, Trebs do the same thing for less.

dimetri1
28-01-2012, 19:30
The Hell Canon is an absolutely great unit as both a war machine and in close combat. Don't leave home with out it.

Lord Inquisitor
28-01-2012, 19:47
As with many extremely destructive but unpredictable engines of war, one isn't all that but two (especially with some other synergies) is extremely potent. Two are more than twice as good as one!

tmarichards
29-01-2012, 01:52
The HellCannon is only really by good when it's getting into combat, it's too unreliable for shooting.

It's also a massive points sink, it can be killed way too easily. The points can be spent far better, as already mentioned look at any of the top WoC lists going around being used by the top players- not a HellCannon in sight, because they're really not very good. The theory all looks ok, but once you start playing enough games with/against it it quickly becomes clear that it's not worth the points

TheOneHawk
29-01-2012, 07:52
Unless it misfires, get's thzzz and you have the puppet on the field.

On turn one.

It's really fun :)

braindead1408
29-01-2012, 09:25
I agree with the whole misfire miscast being completly brutal ive seen it remove a Slann of the table before!

tmarichards
29-01-2012, 13:55
Again, that sounds great in theory, but hardly ever happens. It's just not worth taking, and consistent and competitive tournament gaming makes that apparent.

GodlessM
29-01-2012, 14:10
Don't take one though, they're well rubbish.

In what world, because in the real world they are awesome and in most competitive lists.

tmarichards
29-01-2012, 14:13
Where are you getting your data from to show that they're in most competitive lists?

Azhrar
29-01-2012, 14:14
Exactly. You don't see top players using one for a reason. Very random, potentially nasty to yourself, and free points against any army with Cannons. Empire will take it off turn 2-3 no issue.

Fom my experience using it this haven't been a big issue. If the empire player want to spend 2-3 turns on killing it that is perfectly fine. Leaves more of my knights and warriors alive.

The points you invest in the hellcannon buys you an additional phase to act in, and it can really force your opponent to deploy differently. I have has several empire units panic off the board, because they deployed too close to the edge and panicked.

Havock
29-01-2012, 15:42
Don't take one though, they're well rubbish.

What.

Seriously, where the hell do you get that notion? :p

The Low King
29-01-2012, 17:01
Where are you getting your data from to show that they're in most competitive lists?

Life?

my chaos opponant loved his hellcannon, the ability to shoot any units that can outfight you + possibly panic them + kill any warmachine hunter + sit back and shoot if you ever face another entirely CC army.....i took a dwarf combat army (Strollaz) once against him (well, two games actually), having WOC castle against Dwarfs is one of the weirdest things i have ever seen in a game of warhammer.

Akkaryn
29-01-2012, 18:20
I use one at 2400 points, had 3 games so far with it.

First game against Ogres, failed LoS took 5 wounds off the Slaughter master before moving.

Next two games against High Elves the Mage bunker failed it's panic check and ran off the board.

I quite like mine at the minute.

tmarichards
29-01-2012, 19:30
None of the top UK players (Russ, Al Thompson, Andy Potter) use them (other than Hugh, and it appears to have backfired on him at the Masters) with any frequency, which seems to indicate that they're not really optimal.

Incidentally Low King, whereabouts in London do you play?

Havock
29-01-2012, 20:06
Not to mention S10/5 templates (even small ones) are horrendeously broken under 8th ed rules. It may be a bit dependant on meta,though. If I faced a lot of cannons it would be a far less alluring choice, as it is right now it isn't all that bad regarding how random it is or isn't: It's a possibly frenzied stonethrower-monster, park it behind your lines so it won't race off and die on its own. Some of the misfire results are pretty bad (ie. the first one) but the rest is either fun or a double-edged sword.

Miscasts for everyone + puppet = share the fun.
And #6 is good if it means you get a neat shot in. Like on a bunch of ogres, killing their butcher in the progress.

sulla
29-01-2012, 20:14
Great unit with massive stats and a one in 3 (crew) ward save vs artillery. It destroys steadfast units or monsters and the rest of the chaos army can take care of the rest.

Very hard to deal with by the majority of armies, and combined with a flying tzeentch hero to deal with war machines, can be a useful cog in a very hard army. And that's before you even add the doom totem and pandaemonium in for first turn wins.

The bearded one
29-01-2012, 20:24
I don't think any of the top dwarf generals, such as Furgil/Aaron Chapman use anvils of doom either, though I do vividely remember a thread a couple months back with people complaining that it was too powerful and its chance of exploding serves it right.

This is simply one of those things on which people are divided. I don't think anybody here thinks it's a totally worthless piece of garbage and everyone can agree it can be quite potent, but for some it is simply either too random, or there are other things more worth investing in than a hellcannon. In the superduper optimised tournament lists there will be many things that you won't find for various reasons, despite being pretty good.

Back to the OP: Always go off what it says in your armybook, or in errata's, never believe statlines on the GWsite. When necrons were released Praetorians had 2 attacks on the site.

The Low King
29-01-2012, 21:18
None of the top UK players (Russ, Al Thompson, Andy Potter) use them (other than Hugh, and it appears to have backfired on him at the Masters) with any frequency, which seems to indicate that they're not really optimal.

Incidentally Low King, whereabouts in London do you play?

1 in 4?

Up until september my local store was in Islington, so i played most of my games there. Then i went to uni so i now play in bath (wich is weird because you notice lots of little rules that rightly or wrongly you played differently)

Lord Inquisitor
29-01-2012, 21:49
There are several tournament builds for Warriors of Chaos that I see frequently. With zero comp the two I tend to see are the dual-warshrine "chosenstar" build and the dual-hellcannon "Ld-bomb" build. Suffice to say Hellcannon are certainly seen in some competitive lists, at least within certain builds, but often the army is built around them rather than just throwing in a hellcannon to a regular army.

xxRavenxx
29-01-2012, 22:18
Is the LD bomb using Lore of death to steal 3 LD from a unit, then slapping it with another -1 and a panic from the cannon? Because if so, I agree that its a pretty effective tactic.


Anyway, I think what people are forgetting is that hellcannons, while good, are overshadowed in tournaments by two things:

1. Being comped to only be allowed one.

2. Having warshrine-chosen to compete with.

Masses of chosen are better than a hellcannon. That doesn't make a hellcannon bad.

Rosstifer
29-01-2012, 22:40
Add on the Knight Bus to the list of Competitive builds. Haven't used it myself yet, but a block of Knights with 3++ Ward saves seems like a nasty prospect.

If Hellcannon's work for you then great, I'd just rather spend 205pts on something else.

The bearded one
29-01-2012, 22:50
Add on the Knight Bus to the list of Competitive builds. Haven't used it myself yet, but a block of Knights with 3++ Ward saves seems like a nasty prospect.

knights with 3++'s?

Rosstifer
29-01-2012, 22:53
You put a BSB on a Barded Steed with the Favour of the Gods in a unit of 10 or so Tzeentch Knights with the Wailing Banner. Take 2 Warshrines. Less chance of getting it than Chosen, but when they do, they are INSANELY difficult to kill with a 1+, 3++. Add extra Characters to taste, they'll all benefit from the Warshrine results.

The bearded one
29-01-2012, 22:57
I am not particularly sure where in there is the component that allows chaos knights to benefit from warshrines or eye of the gods results, please elaborate.

Rosstifer
29-01-2012, 23:00
Warshrines can give a free roll one the EOTG table to any unit per turn. You can leave the gift on that unit, or try for another gift, potentially on another unit every turn.... You could potentially get 4++ Warhounds if you were lucky. Did you think they only worked on Chosen?

The exact wording is "Furthermore, during your shooting phase, you may pick a single friendly unit within 12" of the Warshrine. That unit may immediately roll on the EOTG table - Note the effect generated down on your Army roster. In subsequent shooting phases the Warshrine may choose to roll again to get a more desirable result (you may even target a different unit within 12" should you wish)".

The bearded one
29-01-2012, 23:25
Ah, right, I thought it was characters or champions, nevermind.

Havock
30-01-2012, 01:16
Is the LD bomb using Lore of death to steal 3 LD from a unit, then slapping it with another -1 and a panic from the cannon? Because if so, I agree that its a pretty effective tactic.


Anyway, I think what people are forgetting is that hellcannons, while good, are overshadowed in tournaments by two things:

1. Being comped to only be allowed one.

2. Having warshrine-chosen to compete with.

Masses of chosen are better than a hellcannon. That doesn't make a hellcannon bad.

This mainly depends on meta, ie. those comp resticitions, I usually have a 'no double rares' thing to play with, which means I get a bunch of chosen backed up with a hellcannon AND a shrine.




You put a BSB on a Barded Steed with the Favour of the Gods in a unit of 10 or so Tzeentch Knights with the Wailing Banner. Take 2 Warshrines. Less chance of getting it than Chosen, but when they do, they are INSANELY difficult to kill with a 1+, 3++. Add extra Characters to taste, they'll all benefit from the Warshrine results.

Don't bother with the wailing banner, they already cause fear.

Rosstifer
30-01-2012, 01:23
So they do, forgot about that! Even better then, add another banner to taste, or save the points.

Havock
30-01-2012, 01:56
Well, if you don't want to spend too many points the +1 movement banner is fairly cheap. Or go for the strider standard, that's useful on such a unit.

sulla
30-01-2012, 02:47
Well, if you don't want to spend too many points the +1 movement banner is fairly cheap. Or go for the strider standard, that's useful on such a unit.Or take the banner of rage; often seen in my experience, on whatever huge deathstar will be double-buffed. Immune to psychology + an extra attack are always worthwhile.

TheOneHawk
30-01-2012, 02:55
Banner of rage, for sure.

Rosstifer
30-01-2012, 03:10
I wouldn't be too keen on the forced overrun on my Deathstar though.

sulla
30-01-2012, 04:02
As long as you have a stubborn crown character in there, or enough fighter characters to 'make'way' to whatever flank is countercharged, you should be ok. Might not get into too many combats, but as long as they don't lose any, you probably win the game... unless it's watchtower, anyway...

Harwammer
30-01-2012, 11:23
Someone mentioned Hell Cannons are vulnerable to cannons. I've found warshrines are good to put between the two as they are pretty good at stopping cannon shots (there will be games where the cannon gets lucky and takes out both in one shot but it is very unlikely).

Lord Inquisitor
30-01-2012, 17:54
Is the LD bomb using Lore of death to steal 3 LD from a unit, then slapping it with another -1 and a panic from the cannon? Because if so, I agree that its a pretty effective tactic.
Throw the Doom Totem and any other Ld-reducing abilities in the WoC book, yeah.


Don't bother with the wailing banner, they already cause fear.
The point of the Terror banner is not to cause Terror (but it is a bonus) but to block out the "Fear" and "Terror" results on the EotG table. Putting a character in with Magic Resistance is another one. These increase the probabilities of getting the fabled 3++ ward and stubborn result.

The bearded one
30-01-2012, 18:14
The point of the Terror banner is not to cause Terror (but it is a bonus) but to block out the "Fear" and "Terror" results on the EotG table. Putting a character in with Magic Resistance is another one. These increase the probabilities of getting the fabled 3++ ward and stubborn result.

I don't think you are allowed to reroll the magic resistance result when you already have magic resistance. With the fear and terror results you may reroll simply because it says in the description you may reroll if you already have fear and terror, this isn't in the magic resistance result. It's like you won't reroll if you already have a +1 attack weapon or +1 strength weapon ;)

Lord Inquisitor
30-01-2012, 19:03
Yeah you might be right. Depends on how you interpret "duplicate gifts must be re-rolled" but I think I see where you are coming from. A slight limitation to the chosenstar shenanigans is no bad thing.

Waagh Rider
30-01-2012, 21:13
Most overused phrase on this thread; 'The top Uk players'.

Who.The. Hell. Cares. (pardon the pun)

Hellcannon isn't rubbish, but I'm sure the 'top Uk players' don't take one due to it's unreliability in the world of 'WAAC'. The rest of us normal people reckon it's a delightful addition to the WOC list which has a tendency to do devastatingly well, or be a bit crap. Much like any of the models we roll dice for.

Rosstifer
30-01-2012, 21:27
The reason you don't need to cause Terror, only Fear, is because if you roll the Terror result on the EOTG table (a roll of 11), you can bump it up to 4++ and Stubborn with the Favour of the Gods. So no point causing Terror if you already cause Fear.

Havock
30-01-2012, 23:42
Exactly, of course, one could argue that the scarecrow banner could work in the same way on a unit of chosen. But that is one for the rules section ;)

Lord Inquisitor
31-01-2012, 16:03
The reason you don't need to cause Terror, only Fear, is because if you roll the Terror result on the EOTG table (a roll of 11), you can bump it up to 4++ and Stubborn with the Favour of the Gods. So no point causing Terror if you already cause Fear.
...Oh yeah. Very good point there!

Exactly, of course, one could argue that the scarecrow banner could work in the same way on a unit of chosen. But that is one for the rules section ;)
If you use your 3++ only against flying creatures, that seems reasonable... ;)

AlphariusOmegon20
31-01-2012, 16:04
You put a BSB on a Barded Steed with the Favour of the Gods in a unit of 10 or so Tzeentch Knights with the Wailing Banner. Take 2 Warshrines. Less chance of getting it than Chosen, but when they do, they are INSANELY difficult to kill with a 1+, 3++. Add extra Characters to taste, they'll all benefit from the Warshrine results.


Warshrines can give a free roll one the EOTG table to any unit per turn. You can leave the gift on that unit, or try for another gift, potentially on another unit every turn.... You could potentially get 4++ Warhounds if you were lucky. Did you think they only worked on Chosen?

The exact wording is "Furthermore, during your shooting phase, you may pick a single friendly unit within 12" of the Warshrine. That unit may immediately roll on the EOTG table - Note the effect generated down on your Army roster. In subsequent shooting phases the Warshrine may choose to roll again to get a more desirable result (you may even target a different unit within 12" should you wish)".


This mainly depends on meta, ie. those comp resticitions, I usually have a 'no double rares' thing to play with, which means I get a bunch of chosen backed up with a hellcannon AND a shrine.





Don't bother with the wailing banner, they already cause fear.


Well, if you don't want to spend too many points the +1 movement banner is fairly cheap. Or go for the strider standard, that's useful on such a unit.


Or take the banner of rage; often seen in my experience, on whatever huge deathstar will be double-buffed. Immune to psychology + an extra attack are always worthwhile.


Banner of rage, for sure.


Throw the Doom Totem and any other Ld-reducing abilities in the WoC book, yeah.


The point of the Terror banner is not to cause Terror (but it is a bonus) but to block out the "Fear" and "Terror" results on the EotG table. Putting a character in with Magic Resistance is another one. These increase the probabilities of getting the fabled 3++ ward and stubborn result.

L.I. is correct, the trick only works with the Terror banner in the same unit as the FotG. Otherwise you run the risk of hitting the Terror result on the EotG table.

TheOneHawk
31-01-2012, 19:01
Except that he's wrong, which was already pointed out above you, by Rosstifer.

Havock
02-02-2012, 02:37
Yes, they already cause fear so you don't need to bump something to terror anymore, because +1Ld would become fear and fear would be fear (ie. reroll), if you get terror you just nudge it up to 12.
Go with Banner of rage or the strider std, if you want to run them wide-ish.

As for the hellcannon, yes, somewhat unreliable, but with Ld9, not overly so, it can deal a huge amount of damage to certain armies and be nearly worthless against others. Having played for a good time with one now (and having a really good track record with them!) I might be tempted to go for 'moar warriors'. Or bretts, eh, dunno :)